I only crafted on one character, it was an eberron artificer, and most people were both happy and more than willing to pay me mats + 25%. Guess what, most adventurers just LOVE a 25% discount.
Best way to earn money in downtime imho. Then again, artificer was an almost broken crafter. I had a horde of Flicher homunculi running around stealing shiny objects, and didn't spend more than a day after a certain level, as he learned how to make a new type of homunculi that could finish for him once he had started on an item.
~sigh~
Good old days...
As for the guy who's so greedy that'd he'd go so out of character as to kill his crafter because he's not getting free items, or god forbid, he is in character, personally I hope his crafters make a bunch of cursed items.
As for the guy who's so greedy that'd he'd go so out of character as to kill his crafter because he's not getting free items, or god forbid, he is in character, personally I hope his crafters make a bunch of cursed items.
It's a game where the PCs are the heads of a thieves guild. 2 of the 5 have crafting feats. It was agreed that any sort of charging beyond cost would be tantamount to stealing from one another, which would end up with the overcharging individual being relieved of his belongings and his life. Honor among thieves. Items at cost. Not free.
Ok, so recently I took the Craft Wondrous Items feat in a Kingmaker campaign. I've read a portion of the long thread that had to do with adding an extra charge and more or less have seen that most agree that doing so is probably a bad idea. I can understand that.
This leads me to my own question of your opinions of how I intend to do things. I believe I should be perfectly fine as I think this is how everyone does it, but I could be wrong, who knows.
Anyways, what I intend to do is at the very least is, if the other party members that wants something made, they must pay the cost for creating the item itself. So if the item would normally cost 2,000gp, they must provide me with 1,000gp to make the item. If later I pick up Craft Arms & Armor they must also provide the necessary weapon or armor.
Or, is it generally the rule that the wizard pays all of the costs as well? I doubt this is the case, I'm just interested in opinion.
I'll probably hold the right to say "No" about crafting others items as well. I understand that it's potentially helping the party, but at the same time I could end up spending months of in-game time just to make their special item.
I assume this will be easily answered as it's more a matter of opinion. Let me know how you handle your crafting feats.
It varies depending on the character and the campaign. Also how experienced the group is. In almost no case should a crafter foot the entire bill anymore than a paladin should pay for all of the wizard's wands, merely because that's just bizarre to mooch of someone to that extent. However I often do give little gifts to other PCs I crafted out of my own pocket (this is especially true for things like elixirs, as every Bard, Ranger, or Rogue loves getting +10 to Stealth for 1 hour). It just shouldn't be expected as if it were a given.
If I do charge my party (which I will do if I believe it benefits the group) then I generally only charge about a 25% markup over the cost to create. I then take the extra 25% and convert it into other resources such as spells or consumables. One example is if you're a fighter who wants a +3 cloak of resistance (priced at 9,000 gp) I'll craft it for you for 6750 gp and pocket 2250 gp, then use that money to go towards a pearl of power so I can cast haste or heroism on you more often, or scribe scrolls for the same purposes. This is actually an ideal method of assisting a group who is too new (or stupid) to understand the value of things like consumables because it gets them items cheaper and allows you to acquire the funding for goodies that you can then funnel into party success all covert-like.
As for the guy who's so greedy that'd he'd go so out of character as to kill his crafter because he's not getting free items, or god forbid, he is in character, personally I hope his crafters make a bunch of cursed items.It's a game where the PCs are the heads of a thieves guild. 2 of the 5 have crafting feats. It was agreed that any sort of charging beyond cost would be tantamount to stealing from one another, which would end up with the overcharging individual being relieved of his belongings and his life. Honor among thieves. Items at cost. Not free.
Guess the point of view is so different here that any argument would be moot. But in the groups with some decent sense I've seen and played in, honor among thieves would include a line "never make your brother spend 40hrs on free labor for you."
If I bring you flour, eggs and whatever else is needed, and ask you to bake me twenty loafs of bread, and I only pay for the materials, and I come again, and again, for a whole week, that's free bread for me, a free service and labour and eight hours I can spend not baking bread.
On the other hand, you're probably okay with stealing purses for 8hrs a day on his behalf as long as the item is crafted so your fellow guildmember so he doesn't lose his income?
As for the guy who's so greedy that'd he'd go so out of character as to kill his crafter because he's not getting free items, or god forbid, he is in character, personally I hope his crafters make a bunch of cursed items.It's a game where the PCs are the heads of a thieves guild. 2 of the 5 have crafting feats. It was agreed that any sort of charging beyond cost would be tantamount to stealing from one another, which would end up with the overcharging individual being relieved of his belongings and his life. Honor among thieves. Items at cost. Not free.Guess the point of view is so different here that any argument would be moot. But in the groups with some decent sense I've seen and played in, honor among thieves would include a line "never make your brother spend 40hrs on free labor for you."
If I bring you flour, eggs and whatever else is needed, and ask you to bake me twenty loafs of bread, and I only pay for the materials, and I come again, and again, for a whole week, that's free bread for me, a free service and labour and eight hours I can spend not baking bread.
On the other hand, you're probably okay with stealing purses for 8hrs a day on his behalf as long as the item is crafted so your fellow guildmember so he doesn't lose his income?
It's an equal trade environment. Any time the crafters are making something (one does Arms/Armor, the other does Wondrous items) everyone else is out there furthering the goals of the group as a whole. Whether it be stealing from others (which the crafter does get a share in, since he's at home working for the group) or creating new contacts, or strong-arming, or whatever other craziness we may get into. Last time we left our Wondrous item crafter home crafting, we brought him back a shiny new spell book that we came across.
It's not equal trade. Equal trade suggests that if I spend eight hours a day entirely for your benefit, you have to spend eight hours a day entirely for my benefit. If you spend eight hours and then give him 1/6 of the loot you find, guess what, that's not equal.
A wizard with 25% more money for scrolls is just as team benefitiary as a thieves contacts, if not more, the scrolls and potions he makes can save the day.
Your downtime sounds horrible to be honest. Player A stays behind while rest of the party has a side quest story. I can see why it's a thieves guild, but honor among thieves really isn't there because you take a crafter's time for granted, you don't care about his 8 hrs a day because yours are useless compared to his, if we're speaking real downtime, where you don't go kill ogres and trolls for their loot, but have a real life while waiting for the next adventure.
Pick up Craft(weaponsmith) next time, and whenever he crafts you a magic item, you stay behind and make swords, he pays for the mats, and that's that, then he can make them masterwork with a single spell and sell them for profit. You just spent 8 hrs a day for 0 profit, but it's cool, because he's making you a +dex belt.
It's not equal trade. Equal trade suggests that if I spend eight hours a day entirely for your benefit, you have to spend eight hours a day entirely for my benefit. If you spend eight hours and then give him 1/6 of the loot you find, guess what, that's not equal.
A wizard with 25% more money for scrolls is just as team benefitiary as a thieves contacts, if not more, the scrolls and potions he makes can save the day.
Your downtime sounds horrible to be honest. Player A stays behind while rest of the party has a side quest story. I can see why it's a thieves guild, but honor among thieves really isn't there because you take a crafter's time for granted, you don't care about his 8 hrs a day because yours are useless compared to his, if we're speaking real downtime, where you don't go kill ogres and trolls for their loot, but have a real life while waiting for the next adventure.
Pick up Craft(weaponsmith) next time, and whenever he crafts you a magic item, you stay behind and make swords, he pays for the mats, and that's that, then he can make them masterwork with a single spell and sell them for profit. You just spent 8 hrs a day for 0 profit, but it's cool, because he's making you a +dex belt.
I'll go through your post backwards. Your idea is pointless, because that would actually force the caster to lose money. Masterwork transformation costs 300g. You sell items at half price. Loss of money. Nice try though.
Player A stays behind. Whether he's making items for us or for himself doesn't matter. If he's crafting for whatever reason, we try to do something useful in that downtime. Again, even if he is crafting for HIMSELF, we still cut him in on what we're doing. The side quest stories are nothing to rave over. We've never had any form of major event happen when our crafter was behind doing something. We're not taking his time for granted. This is something he and our cleric both agreed to, and actually enjoy. It's especially helpful if someone has to miss a session. They can use that time to be crafting instead of not being there.
So yes, it is equal trade. It doesn't matter who he's crafting for. He gets a cut. If he crafts for himself, that means he does 8 hours of work entirely for himself, and still gets 1/5 of whatever loot we happen across. We at one point went and hunted down some griffon eggs because our Wizard asked us to so he could craft. What did the rest of us get? Nothing. But we were okay with that. We pay in trade. We pay in favors. We don't treat our party situation like a shop. I'm sorry if you can't understand that. But that's the way we are.
It's not equal trade. Equal trade suggests that if I spend eight hours a day entirely for your benefit, you have to spend eight hours a day entirely for my benefit. If you spend eight hours and then give him 1/6 of the loot you find, guess what, that's not equal.
A wizard with 25% more money for scrolls is just as team benefitiary as a thieves contacts, if not more, the scrolls and potions he makes can save the day.
Your downtime sounds horrible to be honest. Player A stays behind while rest of the party has a side quest story. I can see why it's a thieves guild, but honor among thieves really isn't there because you take a crafter's time for granted, you don't care about his 8 hrs a day because yours are useless compared to his, if we're speaking real downtime, where you don't go kill ogres and trolls for their loot, but have a real life while waiting for the next adventure.
Pick up Craft(weaponsmith) next time, and whenever he crafts you a magic item, you stay behind and make swords, he pays for the mats, and that's that, then he can make them masterwork with a single spell and sell them for profit. You just spent 8 hrs a day for 0 profit, but it's cool, because he's making you a +dex belt.
I'll go through your post backwards. Your idea is pointless, because that would actually force the caster to lose money. Masterwork transformation costs 300g. You sell items at half price. Loss of money. Nice try though.
Player A stays behind. Whether he's making items for us or for himself doesn't matter. If he's crafting for whatever reason, we try to do something useful in that downtime. Again, even if he is crafting for HIMSELF, we still cut him in on what we're doing. The side quest stories are nothing to rave over. We've never had any form of major event happen when our crafter was behind doing something. We're not taking his time for granted. This is something he and our cleric both agreed to, and actually enjoy. It's especially helpful if someone has to miss a...
See, here's the major difference, I grew up with downtime being exactly that, downtime, roleplay time, social time and crafting time, clearly this isn't the case here. Unless you're too high level, I cannot fathom how hunting gryphon eggs is downtime, and saying you get nothing seems wrong, what bout xp, possible loot or the adventure itself? If you're too high level, why not just buy them then with some high level skill checks?. I admit my fault for assuming that when people go on a side-quest story, it has some meaning behind it and isn't just an mmo style grind as you make it sound.
If our group has a downtime long enough to craft, a side-quest might be catching a sly thief, finding a ratfolk lair in the city sewers, helping fortyfing a small village, all which should provide some sort of roleplay benefit and experience and fun. To say that you get nothing from tracking down a gryphon lair, getting there, sneaking/fighting to the nest, taking the eggs, and then escaping without crushing them sounds wrong. Might as well just do some Track and survival checks instead and narrate it.
Guess we should just agree to disagree, this won't go anywhere because you think it's okay to continue a game away from the main quest while a part of the group is crafting. I call that a shameless mmo grind that could be better spent on roleplaying and side story quests, contacts, factions.
Guess we should just agree to disagree, this won't go anywhere because you think it's okay to continue a game away from the main quest while a part of the group is crafting. I call that a shameless mmo grind that could be better spent on roleplaying and side story quests, contacts, factions.
The problem with all of this is that you keep assuming that the entire game is happening this way. We have our downtime for roleplaying and side story quests. But we also have our uptime for roleplaying and the main quest. We have goals that we set for ourselves as a group, so we try to accomplish that efficiently. It's just the way we are.
I'm glad to see your communist commune thieves guild works for you but don't act like that's the only way to play the game Dog and stop having such a condescending attitude towards everyone else particularly if you want your opinion to be seriously considered as valid.
It does work for us, and I'm not saying it's the only way to play the game. That's the way that we operate. Someone had a specific issue with it, I answered it. I disagree with some of the people's views on charging to craft for a group, and I've answered every single one of those.
It's not purely for their benefit, though. As someone who will be adventuring with them you benefit from their equipment as well. That cloak of resistance you crafted for the fighter could very well save your life. Having better equipped allies increases your own odds of success and survival. Unless they're asking you to craft something stupid like a circlet of persuasion for an animal companion.
But you're not paying MORE for the Cloak of Resistance. If I charge you 25% crafters fee, you pay 25% LESS for the item, you still win in every way possible. The 25% isn't for the item, it's for asking your friend to stay in his lab for 40 hours and do you a favor.
The whole "benefits the group" shouldn't be a deciding factor, because then every fighter should take feats like Shield Ally and teamwork feats so the group benefits more as a whole.
But you're not paying MORE for the Cloak of Resistance. If I charge you 25% crafters fee, you pay 25% LESS for the item, you still win in every way possible. The 25% isn't for the item, it's for asking your friend to stay in his lab for 40 hours and do you a favor.
The whole "benefits the group" shouldn't be a deciding factor, because then every fighter should take feats like Shield Ally and teamwork feats so the group benefits more as a whole.
So with the crafter charging his "discount" would you see a problem with the fighter and the rest of the group going on a side quest to make back that 25% extra the wizard then has to equal out how much the crafter now has above the rest of the group?
So with the crafter charging his "discount" would you see a problem with the fighter and the rest of the group going on a side quest to make back that 25% extra the wizard then has to equal out how much the crafter now has above the rest of the group?But you're not paying MORE for the Cloak of Resistance. If I charge you 25% crafters fee, you pay 25% LESS for the item, you still win in every way possible. The 25% isn't for the item, it's for asking your friend to stay in his lab for 40 hours and do you a favor.
The whole "benefits the group" shouldn't be a deciding factor, because then every fighter should take feats like Shield Ally and teamwork feats so the group benefits more as a whole.
I can't comment because I never will know a group besides yours that goes on adventures during downtime, to me and most people I know is unheard of, and goes against the whole downtime concept.
If you on the other hand decide to pick up Craft(jeweler), and I ask you to make me a 1000gp necklace melted from the X Noble's chastity belt, I'd give you a 900gp to cover materials, crafting time, and the effort it took you to steal said chastity belt. I won't run off into the mountains to hunt trolls while you smith and steal.
If you're afraid of the balance because the wizard got 250gp off making a 1,000gp chastity belt for your warrior, maybe you shouldn't use crafting rules in the first place. God forbid you take the feats that lets you make magic items without being a spellcaster and help make party items for the benefit of the group.
If a PC used a craft feat to make a magic item, how much is he allowed to sell it for to an NPC?
If a PC used a craft feat to make a magic item, how much is he allowed to sell it for to an NPC?
50% of the value of the item. 1000g item gets crafted for 500g, can be sold for 500g.
If you're afraid of the balance because the wizard got 250gp off making a 1,000gp chastity belt for your warrior, maybe you shouldn't use crafting rules in the first place. God forbid you take the feats that lets you make magic items without being a spellcaster and help make party items for the benefit of the group.
Isn't balance really a non-issue anyway at the 75% price point?
I mean, if the wizard has 1000g and the fighter has 1000g, then the wizard crafts something for the fighter at a cost of 500g with a 250g fee, don't they have a net wealth of 1250g each now, just in a different configuration(one being pure gold, the other being 1000g item + 250g)?
I mean, it gets muddier as the wizard uses the gold to craft his own stuff, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that self-crafted stuff was supposed to count as half value in WBL for the crafter anyway.
Edit: I have to admit that the price point on that model breaks down for a larger party, though it shouldn't be too hard for a good GM to adjust loot to benefit anyone not gaining a benefit from the crafter. If I were shooting for balance, it might take a little more math, but if every PC were getting an equal gold value in items crafted on a regular enough basis, I can't imagine it would be too hard to find a percentage where everyone's relative WBL retains parity.
Now, it would be on the GM to not allow it to overlevel the entire party's wealth in some way. Probably by limiting time spent crafting or reducing treasure gained.
If you are in a game with a crafter who charges for crafting just take the same crafting skill and craft cheaper (down to at cost).
I've let my group know that I can make them items at 75% of cost, and they are all OK with it. On top of realizing that paying 75% of cost is certainly better than paying 100% of cost, they understand that time I spend creating them items is time I'm not making items for myself. We don't have a lot of downtime in our game, and we don't waive time requirements for crafting.
I'm playing a bladebound kensai and we do loot on a need basis. So I have no need for the high priced armor and weapons(multiple weapons for the dual wielders) they are getting as loot. While others have kept several pieces of gear for their character, I've only just recently got my 2nd piece of loot. Charging them 75% helps to balance the distribution of wealth in our party.
Besides, while we are a group of people that know each other around the table....our characters have only known each other for about a month, and some characters don't really like each other....you don't really do favors for those you don't like. ;)
If the wizard is profiteering off the fighter he's asking to have the fighter charge for his services. He can pretty much name his price since there aren't listed prices for hiring heroes.
You need to remember to seperate group gain, thus party treasure share/xp and adventuring from downtime.
If the bard in the party is spending his downtime performing at the tavern does he need to split his tips with the rest of the party?
If the rogue in the party is spending his downtime doing a little breaking and entering on his own with no help from anyone else in the party does he need to share his gains with everyone else?
Then why do you expect the crafter to not make any money with his down time using his abilities?
People seem to get the idea that if you are in a group you follow some sort of comunist rule set. You do not need to share everything. An adventuring party is made up of fellows who come together and then they decide on a rule set for their adventures, treasure share etc. What you do outside of those adventures is your own time.
People get so caught up they forget that this is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Meaning your character has a life you are not just a set of rules or mechanics there to better your party members. Your character should have their own thoughts and ideas, their own identity.
To the OP:
This is something that you need to talk to YOUR group about and see what they are comfortable with. It is well within your rights as the person spending the feat(s) to charge them at cost or give them a discount based on what it would have cost them to purchase from a normal merchant. This has to be discussed with them to see how they feel about it.
Basically because asking people here will just get you a bunch of long drawn out arguments on the merits or lack thereof of each and then they start flaming each other on their opinions. If we truly think about it, the arguments are based off of what each person believes and the economics in-game boil down to: capitalism, socialism, or communism.
Everyone has different views on it and every group is different. Some people say that they will kill or leave the PC behind who won't craft their PC's deeply discounted 50% off items and some say that is a bunch of BS.
Make up your own minds in your own groups and come to a consensus, that is the best piece of advice I can give you. EVERY group is different.
If they don't like it, they can go try to roll the percentile dice and see if any merchant is selling that specific item at the 100% rate or even MORE if they are unlucky.
As far as the spells argument goes, that's silly to me. If I have a wizard I'm casting spells/buffs on the other party members and saving their butts too - I'm not charging for those services and neither should the cleric. The cleric healing isn't even close to being something that should compare as a form of an argument as to why NOT to charge more then 50% to me. My opinion is worth just as much as anyone else on here and every group just needs to figure it out for themselves in the end.
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Oh yay, this again.
My policy is to craft at cost, take Hedge Magician, and keep the 5%. If anyone complains that I'm not also cutting them in on my trait I don't craft for them anymore, on grounds that they're a meta gaming a-hole whose character doesn't know what traits my PC has anyway. That policy works great for me. If your gaming group is full of communists who demand you craft things for them for free on their schedule, I suggest falling on your sword, rerolling a fighter, and then complaining every day about how the group doesn't have a crafter anymore. Name your new character "Horse" and keep a copy of Animal Farm at your gaming table.
If the bard in the party is spending his downtime performing at the tavern does he need to split his tips with the rest of the party?
If the rogue in the party is spending his downtime doing a little breaking and entering on his own with no help from anyone else in the party does he need to share his gains with everyone else?
Then why do you expect the crafter to not make any money with his down time using his abilities?
This is a flawed argument that has come up several times. Things like Perform and Sleight of Hand for pickpocketing are designed to make small amounts of money from NPCs and the game world itself. It's something built into the rules of how those skills work.
Crafting of items, whether it be magical or mundane, is designed to have everyone break even. You create items at half value, they're worth the full value, but you can again sell them at half value.
So, straight up by the rules, no the crafter should not be making money from his item creation abilities.
This is a flawed argument that has come up several times. Things like Perform and Sleight of Hand for pickpocketing are designed to make small amounts of money from NPCs and the game world itself. It's something built into the rules of how those skills work.Crafting of items, whether it be magical or mundane, is designed to have everyone break even. You create items at half value, they're worth the full value, but you can again sell them at half value.
So, straight up by the rules, no the crafter should not be making money from his item creation abilities
He's not making money, but he is making wealth.
Part of the intent of the feat is for the crafter to have more gear than everyone else. That's why his crafted gear only counts at cost when determining WBL.
Crafting items is designed to have the crafter come out ahead, in therms of gear, anyway.
James Jacobs (or maybe it was another developer) has specifically called out the crafting feats as serving little benefit if the crafter was not able to increase their wbl via the feat.
It was probably SKR. But it's bull. The main benefit of taking a crafting feat is customization. Without magic item crafting feats, you and your group are completely dependent on what the GM sees as reasonable access to magic items.
The WBL benefit is an add-on and an unnecessary one. I'd vastly favor a system where crafting feats were consolidated a good bit and crafting times ( hours per day and total days spent to craft ) were highly reduced, while crafting prices are near-equal to market price. Then taking a crafting feat is actually a choice, instead of "pick Craft Wondrous Item, win the game".
And if anybody sees a discrepancy between this post and the one above it, it is because in the one above I talk about the "system as it is" and in this one about the "system as it should be".
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Ok. Doggan answered calmly and rationally. I do disagree with his interpretations and thoughts on some things.
I do not think that me or any character is greedy by default of having or acquiring more wealth than another member in the party. Even if that amount is vast. At no point was a party member forced or coerced or given no other options than to purchase from the crafter. You can argue this all sorts of ways but the end result is always going to be that that, in and of itself, does not constitute greed.
Personally, I don't care how anyone does their role as long as they do it well. I'm sure as hell not going to dictate how and who they can use various class features and personal feat/skill/spell selections. Were I in your current campaign where the party felt it was their place to tell me how I was going to use a feat I took- I'd ask the GM if I could just switch the feat out because I genuinely dislike people being in my business like that. If I couldn't switch the feat out, I'd either refuse to craft anything for anyone but myself or, if they felt that was evil and greedy as well, I'd just never use the feat...or use it in private. If I am not permitted to choose how I want to use my own abilities, I wouldn't feel very much like an individual. I can be judged, sure. I welcome judgement. But taking action against me because I didn't go out of my way to do something for someone else on my personal downtime with my personal talents when it wasn't something needed to begin with (the craft feats are bonuses)...I'd view that person with extreme negativity. I've seen (and played) healers who do, in fact, heal as needed (but over 1 hp, silly). They care about their spells. They heal people enough that they can keep going so they have enough backup heals or alternate spells to be useful aside. I don't burn heals if a nights rest will cover a substantial amount of the damage you've taken. You'll sleep it off and recover your level in hp tonight pal. Some clerics keep everyone healed as much as they can until they are absolutely out of every magical thing they can do besides orisons. That's cool, too. I've loved and hated healers who've done it either way. I judge their wisdom at those times (liking or disliking how it worked out or didn't work) but I definitely do not pretend that they 'should' or 'shouldn't' do this or that with this spell or that spell. It's their choice. Their spells. My choice. My feat. My service. You want it? My terms. I'd feel the same way about you and your character. I may not LIKE your choices or terms. But they are yours. My rules DO NOT apply to you or your character. In a party like yours as you described it, I totally get it, though. I can very easily understand the concept of 'you're spending your time and not getting a direct benefit for doing so'. But I know how thief types are in that scenario so I can see where the crafter does benefit and clearly so. In that case, I'd be inclined to craft at cost as my schedule permits, depending on what character I was up to.
****
Balance.
I don't contest that it imbalances things in favor of the crafter. In fact, it seems this was or may be intentional.
FAQ wrote:
PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12
This might not be official but maybe it seems to be RAI. It seems the crafting feats benefits are meant for the crafter, primarily and that the value is already considered. Like anything, though, GM discretion should be considered. I already compared this to leadership. I feel I was correct in doing so. I agree, they are all very powerful feats. But you're not really getting 2x wbl from one feat. Most players needs weapons and armor, wondrous items, rings and wands. To a lesser extent, scrolls and potions. But this requires 3 feats minimum to be able to operate at a full 2x wbl. There is no other way to do so WITHOUT using just one type of item. And certainly, this can happen at lower and sometimes even mid levels. But overall, you need the other items. So now we're talking about 3 feats, probably 4 or 5. Characters receive 10 feats, not counting bonus ones.
So when someone takes craft magic arms and armor, their WBL isn't really x2. It's BETTER than it was before. Sometimes, substantially so. Now the question is does a SINGLE crafting feat skew a characters power so greatly as to be considered unfair?
Well, by taking craft wondrous item, I now can't take augment summoning for another two levels. In combat, I am absolutely weaker for it and my party can feel it. Out of combat, I'm stronger and the party is benefiting directly from the additional versatility. The experience may differ with each party, though.
Personally, I do not think any single craft feat is a true problem. The problems come in two forms:
Multiple craft feats or craft feats being applied to the group (at substantial discount close to cost).
Time is always a factor that should be mitigating how much wealth can truly be accrued as well as the number of feats. Craft Wondrous Item is the only one that is truly dangerous here. The rest balance themselves out from abuse due to the limited number of things you would craft and be able to use- generally. I feel that once you spread crafting out to the group as a matter of course (not just occasionally) your groups power is literally magnified and this creates balance issues. One character with an extra 20-30% WBL from a single feat or two is manageable. Nothing is broken. A party of 5, each with that much extra wealth is a GM's headache.
As long as a GM is paying attention, understands the implications of crafting, WBL should never be a real problem. There are too many common sense ways to keep it from getting out of hand. And one craft feat one a single character isn't really enough, imo, to break anything. Though, if you optimize, sure you can break anything.
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Finally: If my party up and left me while I was building my tower, I'd probably feel upset about missing out on the exp or adventure, etc. But I'm a big boy. I can get over it. I don't have to like it but I can move on. I also like to think I am reasonably intelligent and that I would largely attempt to time any endeavor in such a manor that it could be done in time blocks or completed (or mostly completed) before another adventure. I would certainly not MAKE anyone sit around and wait for me, though I might ask- I mean, the worse people can do is say 'no'. In which case I have to consider the implications. I'd assume this is what a mature player would do, but then everybody is different so you never know.
Also, I was not championing wealth by level or trying to accumulate hordes for myself and be hypocritical. I should be clear: I am championing the feats and their use and admitting they CAN be unbalanced when used in certain ways and that guidelines and good GMing should be able to control the abuse. At least one person on the Paizo staff is under the impression that the benefit (one of them) of those feats is the wealth based bonus you acquire from them. I'm ok with that. Maybe the bonus could be a bit lower, sure. GMs...adjudicate that crap. Otherwise, it's no biggie.
Lastly: My party has a cavalier whose order is of the tome. So he goes out of his way to protect all written knowledge. He can't read a lick of magic and distrusts any translation I give of a scroll of spellbook. He confiscates everything I find that's written (under threat of pain/attack). Since I don't want my character dead or crippled and the objects taken anyway, I give him what he wants: which is all my wealth. We had a gunslinger who was greedy (searched every corpse, opened every chest, took everything he could find). So I was left with very little. Eventually people started standing up for my little gnome and the conflicts that arose resulted in all of those objects being destroyed.
Non-written forms of loot have worked out in such a way that I still don't have any. I've gotten creative in terms of ways to acquire gold without getting it from treasure. I now have approximately 7.5-10k gold and have been given time to craft as the GM realizes that's the only way I'll have anything.
All this aside, I am easily the most powerful character in our group- without money or gear. I'm savvy enough to realize this and (hopefully) a good enough sport to take the hits to finding loot and the like, in stride. Within the next 3-4 levels, the cavalier will have lost all capability to threaten me over loot. There are also magic items I can now craft which will remove his need to confiscate more things (hopefully). Yes, no normal character would go through all this. But I'm a gnome and it's the only adventure he can find. Seems that he'd make quite a few exceptions compared to the things he's seen such as dragons (encountered one tonight), being possessed by a demon or devil, etc. Yes, I make ooc excuses that translate into IG rp so that I have logical reasons to stay with the group. But I enjoy role playing. I dislike the lack of loot for me only, but I'm patient and try to be crafty in finding solutions to problems. I enjoy more about the sessions than just what gear and money we find, though.
<grumble> Ross, if you delete my post, please at least then also delete the sentence in the follow-up post of mine which directly refers to it.
Nonetheless, going with the current system as it is, my characters free time does not automatically belong to my party members because I took a certain feat. My character belongs to me. If they don't want to get magic items at a discount for them and a profit for me, then they can say so and nobody is harmed. Saying stuff like "if I had a player character who wanted to sell me things at a good discount for me but still a profit for him, I'd cut his throat!" is a sure sign of really creepy entitlement.
And the fallacy of "now the fighter will charge you for protecting you!" is just horrible logic. If I do not take the item creation feat ( which, if I take it, works just as well, nay, much better at empowering me than taking a spell focus or somesuch ), am I now in danger of getting charged for fighter services, too? After all, I didn't optimally help the party.
A caster without a magic item crafting feat still pulls his weight in the party by being a caster and providing buffs, damage and battlefield control. A caster with a magic item crafting feat does the same, but for some people suddenly his free time doesn't belong to himself anymore and the character really doesn't belong to the player anymore, but to everyone.
And don't give me "the party contributes their own things during downtime". Most players I have ever played with have their characters do almost nothing productive during the weeks or months of downtime. They certainly don't have their characters spend eight hours every day of the week slaving away in a workshop.
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I personally find it borderline hilarious that people who automatically assume a caster shouldn't profit from 8hrs a day crafting for another member, never take Master Craftsman and a few ranks in Craft(weaponsmith) and make magic weapons for the party, because boo hoo, it costs a feat and some skill points.
This usually comes from rich heavy fighters, ironically.
I personally find it borderline hilarious that people who automatically assume a caster shouldn't profit from 8hrs a day crafting for another member, never take Master Craftsman and a few ranks in Craft(weaponsmith) and make magic weapons for the party, because boo hoo, it costs a feat and some skill points.
This usually comes from rich heavy fighters, ironically.
The mage needs 1 feat and a skill most casters will have anyways to craft most stuff on their own.
The fighter needs two feats* and a skill he would not have anyways (which might well be half his total sp per level) to be able to try to craft stuff but will need the caster's help most of the time in addition to that.And most fighters are running around "rich" from time to time because a lot of stuff they need is incredible expensive so they have to be rich before they can afford it.
*Master craftsman only lets you count your craft skill as CL for qualifying for item crafting feats. So a fighter with only master craftsman can not craft magic items.
Eh, get that trait which gives you one cantrip per day and, boom, you are a spellcaster with a full advancing caster level. Then take Spellcraft, a skill focus and a crafting feat and, boom, you are an magic item crafter.
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Slavers often give their slaves the supplies and tools to do the necessary work for them too (paying them nothing more than the absolute minimum resources needed for survival).
Are your party members slaves to you? Of course not! Don't treat them like it. Pay them some respect by giving them whatever they feel is appropriate for their services.
If they are giving you the items at cost with the expectation that they will be used to benefit the group (as well as the crafter personally), than great. If you are paying full price for the sake of game balance, than you are STILL getting the benefit of specific items on demand.
There is no wrong way to do it, provided everyone is respecting everyone else's wishes.
I personally find it borderline hilarious that people who automatically assume a caster shouldn't profit from 8hrs a day crafting for another member, never take Master Craftsman and a few ranks in Craft(weaponsmith) and make magic weapons for the party, because boo hoo, it costs a feat and some skill points.
This usually comes from rich heavy fighters, ironically.
The mage needs 1 feat and a skill most casters will have anyways to craft most stuff on their own.
The fighter needs two feats* and a skill he would not have anyways (which might well be half his total sp per level) to be able to try to craft stuff but will need the caster's help most of the time in addition to that.
And most fighters are running around "rich" from time to time because a lot of stuff they need is incredible expensive so they have to be rich before they can afford it.*Master craftsman only lets you count your craft skill as CL for qualifying for item crafting feats. So a fighter with only master craftsman can not craft magic items.
Master Craftsman allows crafting magic items, you need to check the whole thing, not just the feat. For each requirement you can't meet, you add a +5 to the crafting DC. Two feats at level 5 and then 7 is nothing for a fighter, and not having skill points only depends how much you want to min-max your damage/combat potential. Any and every class can gain a +1 skill point/level from favored class, and fighter can gain additional +2/level from Lore Warden archetype.
Dangerously Curious trait gives you a +1 to UMD and makes it a class skill for another +3, that's +4 to UMD a spell from a scroll, incase you don't feel like taking a +5DC penalty. So it's very possible.
Wizard and summoner pay a bunch of feats they gain very little of.
Martial classes pay skill points and a feat, it sounds rather fair. Two feats isn't that much to be able to craft any magic weapon and armor with two skills that are easy to get additional bonuses to.
Heck, a Human with Fighter as favored has both plenty of ranks and +2sp/level, more than enough to get Master Craftsman, Craft magic arms & armor, Craft(weaponsmith, armorsmith).