Ok, so recently I took the Craft Wondrous Items feat in a Kingmaker campaign. I've read a portion of the long thread that had to do with adding an extra charge and more or less have seen that most agree that doing so is probably a bad idea. I can understand that.
This leads me to my own question of your opinions of how I intend to do things. I believe I should be perfectly fine as I think this is how everyone does it, but I could be wrong, who knows.
Anyways, what I intend to do is at the very least is, if the other party members that wants something made, they must pay the cost for creating the item itself. So if the item would normally cost 2,000gp, they must provide me with 1,000gp to make the item. If later I pick up Craft Arms & Armor they must also provide the necessary weapon or armor.
Or, is it generally the rule that the wizard pays all of the costs as well? I doubt this is the case, I'm just interested in opinion.
I'll probably hold the right to say "No" about crafting others items as well. I understand that it's potentially helping the party, but at the same time I could end up spending months of in-game time just to make their special item.
I assume this will be easily answered as it's more a matter of opinion. Let me know how you handle your crafting feats.
Honestly, having your friend pay the costs to make the item makes sense. Time is an issue, of course, but that can be more or less hand-waved by a GM.
The recipient of the item should pay the cost for the crafter. While the crafter is crafting, the person for whom the crafter is making the thing can do something to help the crafter in return. In our campaigns that is frequently balanced out by the non-crafters doing the leg work in town to investigate, interrogate or interact with the townsfolk to advance the story.
In one of my campaigns my character was a gambler, so the crafter gave him some cash to gamble with and in the end the gambler made some cash for the crafter.
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In our game, my wizard crafts wondrous items for 60% of the base cost. Since we never have a lot of downtime, the extra money allows me to buy items that I can't craft for myself while making things for the party.
Good to hear (or read as it were).
@Adamantine - I like your idea. Our game being Kingmaker, I'm sure there would be plenty of favors that the whole party could trade each other for too.
Thanks everyone.
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As a PC, if my character is a crafter, he usually takes the Hedge Magician trait, which gives 5% off the cost to craft magic items. He pockets the 5% for himself. It really adds up over time.
1) You should talk with your GM, but I beleive Kingmaker is very generous towards downtime and is crafter -friendly. You should discuss things with your GM.
2) You're not the party's crafting B**** either. Don't neglect your own character.
2) Your client pays the costs. However as you're spending time doing this, it would be normal for you to expect 1st dibs on magic treasure.
1) You're the item identification guy anyway.
2) You're customizing for other people. Don't feel shy about declering first dibs on wizard (or cleric if that's what you're playing) oriented goodies.
It's true, thus far I've been the only one identifying magical items and have given half of them away to other party members. I may not go as far as calling dibs on magical loot (we have a sorcerer after all) but I think it's at least understood that I'd benefit most getting the scrolls and spellbooks.
When I craft I charge other players the cost to craft. I tell them that tips would be nice but I don't charge extra. I tend to get quite a bit in tips, enough to make it worthwhile.
I may do something like this, putting it out there but not demanding it and making it mandatory. Favors would be equivalent to a tip for me in some cases.
As a PC, if my character is a crafter, he usually takes the Hedge Magician trait, which gives 5% off the cost to craft magic items. He pockets the 5% for himself. It really adds up over time.
I did not know or think about this. This is a pretty interesting idea. I wonder if I may be able ask the DM to switch out a trait for a skill I haven't used yet. I took a trait for disable device as our rogue went melee thug and (as far as I can tell) didn't take the skill. So I originally figured I would try to alleviate that position if needed, but thus far I haven't seen one instance in which it'd be useful in Kingmaker yet.
Thanks again everyone for the input, it has been helpful.
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The character who wants an item made absolutely should at least give the crafting cost to the crafter. You should not be paying for the items you are making for your friends.
I don't think it's unreasonable for the crafter to request a small fee (10% is fine) or else some other favour in compensation as well, depending on how close the party members are. Favour trading is probably preferable to fees, especially from what I've heard of Kingmaker.
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Weirdo stole the words right out of my mouth. Your friends should pay the cost, as they are the ones using the item.
Yeah, straight cost to craft is all I have ever or would ever charge/expect to be charged. Anything else is scumbaggy.
In our kingmaker game the crafter has the hedge magician trait and keeps the money, too. Everyone is happy. We get our stuff cheaper and stay on WBL that way and the crafter has a benefit for crafting all that stuff.
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I have seen campaigns crumble because of PCs being over equipped.
Thus, I do not favore a caster making magic items for other party members at a discount. I also do not advocate the crafter keep the profit. I do not care that the money just disapearing sounds like it is going to waste. The feats just might be balenced for the crafter to create their own stuff, but even than, only within limits.
I also feel it is garbage to not allow players to buy what they want within reason. The guidline is that no one item should be worth more than half the characters total Wealth by Level on page 399. We get to picks ability score distribution, race/class combos, feats, skills. Why is it so damn hard for some people to understand that your equipment is just as important to be able to pick for yourself within the reasonable guidelines mentioned above?
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I have a crafter (currently possessed by an evil god, so I may not have him after next session). Assuming I get to continue playing my character after the next session, I intend to craft items for myself. I'm in a party that's kept me so low in funds (600 gp saved up and I am 4th level and have spent nothing since level 1) that the idea of crafting for others at cost is beyond ludicrous. I intend, once I am reasonably outfitted, to charge them 76-90% of the items normal cost. 60-75% for a character I actually like.
This still seems entirely reasonable since, as noob said, the hedge magician trait adds up over time and it is merely a 5% difference. Each item I craft is a minimum of 10% saved on the cost, which, in the case of bulk items or ones with reasonable value, is important. at 15-20% off per item, you see a very substantial difference in what your wealth by level is like with each purchased item that's been crafted.
This also allows me to pay for wizards to assist me in casting spells needed to craft an item, should I not wish to risk failing it. It also means they are paying for my time. I play in a game where downtime is nonexistent, and crafting while adventuring is almost literally impossible since there are attacks in the night, every night, etc. There is no relaxation that is not interrupted by the GM forcing npc's down your throat at all times. And after adventures and between sessions there are no 'Well, you've been back in town for about a month now after having slain the skeleton king, little more than a pile of bones and rubble now. The town has welcomed you as local heroes and your fame and new found fortune have afforded you many pleasures. However, word has reached your ears of a threat to the West and as you suspected, the lord of the land has requested your aid in dealing with this as only heroes can'.
....No.
Our gm makes lifetimes worth of crap happen in a single day- every day. Almost not worth the crafting feats but since I can't get magic items any other way...
So I am partial to being about as greedy as it gets with crafting. It's mine, all mine!
So I am partial to being about as greedy as it gets with crafting. It's mine, all mine!
Well, hopefully your party never finds out how much you're gouging them for. That'd get you killed in one of my campaigns.
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@Doggan, I don't see how it is scumbaggy in ANY way if I took the time to
A.) pick a spellcaster who qualified for a particular feat.
B.) spend in game time and resources using the feat, at no cost to others.
C.) Choose to share the benefits of the feat by providing a discounted rate.
Just because the discount offered to others is not as low as it would be if they had taken the feat is by no means even -remotely- negative. If other PC's wanted cheaply crafted gear AT 50% off...they could craft their own stuff and take the feats for it (even if not a spellcasting class).
Using the argument that clerics should charge to heal and crap is faulty since bards should be singing, clerics should be healing, fighters should be fighting and arcane types should be casting spells. That's WHY they are what they are. But personal choices outside of class features that are inherent to everyone working together, start getting obnoxious if other players have a say in you using a choice for yourself. I mean, is picking a druid and having an animal companion bad because I am not 'sharing' the perks of it with the party? What about a familiar? The fighter has it harder here since he should be sharing his feats with the group- but that's the fighters design, but no wizard should be judged because he chooses to use his personal feat selection to give himself an advantage and offers it to others- at advantage- just not as good as his. If you come into my store and everything is always 10% off for you, cool. I like you. Sure, it costs me 50% to make my stuff, but I didn't set up my business to break even. I set it up to make money and/or get advantage. Now, if you dislike the fact that I make substantial money off selling you something you're free to pay FULL price at every other shopkeeper....or take my discount because I like you. Otherwise, you've spent your time helping someone else and gained nothing. There are only so many 8+ hour blocks of my time I would ever spend helping others at no personal benefit.
Suggesting it is scumbaggy (if you meant in general and not just how you would feel if you did it) to sell at more than the cost to make or only to net a really tiny profit is like saying that every artist, every manufacturer, and most businesses (in this case maybe true) are scumbags for selling products at substantially inflated prices in relation to how much it cost for them to produce the items.
Also, it's been specifically mentioned that one of the main benefits of a craft feat is that it is largely worth it for the character taking the feat BECAUSE they are paying only the crafting cost and not market value. This does, in fact, make the character stronger in terms of wbl in equipment based on what they can make. That's the whole advantage.
Once you start sharing that advantage with the entire party, exactly as is, you're guaranteed to run into problems and have a party of super powerful characters. You've effectively doubled the WBL of everyone in the group.....on a single character, that's fine- but it's silly on a party. But a party with say, 10-20% more wbl is far more manageable than 50% more. The second they are all sitting at 50% more wbl is the moment your game might as well be forgotten realms or 'uber high magic'.
Raymond is right on with the idea of not sharing those kind of items (potions are fine, scrolls to a degree) as though everyone in the group had the feat. But I feel that saying the caster and creator of an item who then sells it should not keep the profit....that just sounds...well...wth man? What was the point in making the item for someone else then? I mean, as a present, sure. If it's simply for survival, ok. But in general...if my alchemist wants you to create him a golem just because he thinks they are cool and wants to have one in his lab, then if you intend to sell it and spend the days making it and charge me only the cost- well...please allow me to join your group. I have a list of trivial time consuming things I'd like made and I'll be removing the feat from my own character since I've now found someone who'll function as the feat for me.
Words
Yes, others can take the same crafting feats that you can. Yet for your Fighters, and other more slowly advancing classes, those options to create items come at a far later time, and often at the cost of multiple feats. A fighter would have to be 7th level having burned 2 feats to be able to create anything. Not to mention throwing quite a bit of an extremely limited skill pool into a certain skillset. Then they have to pay extra to have a caster available to cast the spells required for each item.
The argument you make with the druid animal companion and familiar is nonsense. Those are class features. Choosing a crafting skill is a choice, and often an amazing boon for your party. What you detail instead is a very minor boon for your party, and a major boon for yourself. You describe giving the party a 10% discount. Well that's fantastic. But then you're pocketing 40% of the value of every item. You're not skewing the WBL of the party. You're massively skewing it to yourself. Looks like you need to fix your hypocritical argument a little bit.
I don't know, maybe it's just a different viewpoint. When playing at a table with my friends, I'm willing to craft their items for them. I recognize the fact that it helps all of us, and can get over greed to take some hours and craft some items. I don't treat my companions like customers. I wouldn't blame any group ever for abandoning a character like that.
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@Doggan I can't even comprehend how it is gouging..the standard, universal price is 100 bucks. Yes, it costs me 50 bucks to make it but I am selling it to you, on demand, for 75 dollars or 70 bucks. I'm literally not comprehending in what capacity I am gouging anyone? Honestly, if I am missing something here logically, I'd like to know. I don't think that when I purchase magic cards from my local game shop, that when I pay $4.00 per pack that the shop owners should be killed or that they suck. I know that they purchase those packs at under $3.00. When I used to sell cards, I paid $2.50 a pack from my distributor who got them for $2.00. I then sold my packs for $3.50-$4.00. Just like they're sold now.
So I am not being confrontational here. I genuinely am lacking the mental clarity to understand how and why someone is being 'bad' or worthy of negativity for making profit, Doggan.
Also, in response to the specific (that would get you killed in my campaign) statement. I'd start off by telling the group: Here's the thing. I pay 50% for stuff I make. We can start fighting now if you'd like (ready action create pit if anyone does anything besides talk) because I AM charging you a good bit more than it costs me to make anything, if you have any requests.
Or I would say: I refuse to make anything for any of you guys because I don't want to die and I don't want to feel like a slave. Those are the only two options I have unless I choose to deny you the benefits of my labor.
In real life, spending 8 hours of your time doing something for someone else (without being paid), spending 8 hours sleeping and then spending 8 hours working for a living sounds a lot like slavery or like someone volunteers at a soup kitchen. While I can cite plenty of specific examples that counter this. I know that I think of myself as a good person but I would ABSOLUTELY feel like a slave if I spent 8 hours of every other day hand crafting something for others, then going to work each day then sleeping 8 hours....and maybe getting paid 10-20 bucks for my 8 hours of hard work for the hand crafted item as a 'thanks'.
As the laborer, I see this:
You want a 100k gp item. You have the 100k. But you come to me wanting it for 50-60k....for some reason I agree.
I'm the laborer and it will cost me 50k to make your item. I charge you 60k and walk away feeling great because I spent days working hard to earn that 10k gold. You spent no time and just walked away with 40k additional gold in terms of WBL. But I spent several days laboring to make you that money. I don't understand why this is a good thing for anyone but the buyer. I also don't see why I would craft from a business standpoint because it is not economically viable. The margin of return versus the time required to craft makes it almost pointless to charge just 10%. At 30% you see enough return income per item crafted that it's worth the time and effort. I make 30k gp and you walk away with an additional 20k gp....at no cost in terms of time or anything...This is why people like sales. It's the exact same principle..If I need something and can buy it for 20% off....I probably will. I hope.
@Gnomersy, I don't think I would personally want to go under 20% minimum just because I dislike the idea that everyone else benefits from each application of my feat more than I do, unless I craft for myself. 20% over means they make 30% gp. I say 'make' because it is no different than putting money IN their pockets. Think of Craft feats as +50% GP feats. So if everyone should have 100k gp. But you craft the 100k gp item for 70k. That player has a 100k gp item...AND still has 30k to buy something else. So once their wbl is done being calculated, they'll have more than 100k worth of stuff...I think this is why shared crafting is dangerous (power creep/spike) and if I ever GM again I will have to consider this carefully. It allows players (entire parties) to buy those big items worth way more than half their total wbl. It speeds up what players can do at any given level, opens up more options...Now the fighter not only has upgraded his blade (a lot) but he also was able to upgrade his armor, sell his old blade and armor, buy a brand new shield, pimp it out, and had enough extra to buy a good cloak, boots that gave him flight and a ring...When normally he should have been able to just upgrade his armor or weapon, sell the unupgraded version, buy either the boots or the ring and get a pimped out new shield that's good, but not pimped out. Multiple this over a group of 5 and you see why I will be thinking hard on how to adjudicate these feats in the future. In game, though, I would probably make some items for free or at cost simply because they really do help the party, or because it fits the rp or just to genuinely be nice. Outside of those very infrequent and occasional situations, I'd be coming out with good metagame reasons to charge the extra cash in character just to keep the game balanced. No use fighting batezu's at level 12 because you're party is geared so well that's all that is a challenge. :-D
Wall of text.
You can see my above post for the mathematical reasons behind why you're imbalancing the game. Also, I think it's just a completely different viewpoint. You're treating your party as customers to your store. I treat my party as friends that need help moving. Sure, if it's to the point where I'm getting taken advantage of constantly, I'll just say no. I don't treat friends, or adventuring parties as a business. It cheapens everything.
I'm going to use a slightly modified version of the cleric healing argument here. The Cleric does in fact heal you. Say he saves your life with a cure spell, but sets you back at 1 HP. Then he says to you "You're alive, capable of doing all the normal things. I'm going to not heal you anymore because that will take up some of my time, and some of my spells for the day that could be used on myself instead. My time has value."
It almost seems by the way you view it, parties should be a giant business transaction, where you pay each other the spellcaster service fees for buffs and heals and the like.
What does your group do during downtimes? Does the rest of the party have some form of way to equal out their WBL with yours while you're charging them extra for crafting?
The problem with charging for item crafting is that once you start it the healer can make you pay for healing, charging double for in combat healing because of availiability vs demand.
Or the Fighter can charge you for getting the melee guy out of your mage face etc.
Once you start charging money for what you do you stop being a party and start being mercenaries who hang out together in the hope of exploiting the rest and gaining more more more.
Example: A party raises to a new level and by that gets to choose a new feat each. The mage takes craft wondrous item, the cleric takes selective channel, the bard takes flagbearer and the fighter takes saving shield. Everyone takes something that helps the whole party. Why should the mage be able to charge money for his choice but not the cleric? Why not the fighter? He isn't just using up a feat but he has to spend immediate actions during combat to have someone else benefit from it. He himself gets NOTHING for taking this feat and using those actions.
I'm always a bit surprised at how hostile some people are to the idea of a caster charging slightly more than cost to party members. As the fighter if the wizard in the party takes the crafting feats and charges me 60% then I'm now getting things much cheaper than I was beforehand. In character I certainly can't see any reason to be anything other than happy!
Out of character I've got no problem with it either. The wizard is taking time and that's a meaningful thing in a number of games. They've also spent a feat, which in many cases works more for the benefit of the party than themselves.
There can be an argument over whether it causes wealth-per-level issues or not. But that can come up just from magic item crafting in general regardless.
Yeah, I'm pretty hostile to the idea. Casters are the most powerful characters in the game, and generally in less danger not being on the front lines of the majority of fights. On top of that wanting a large wealth increase is just too much. Sure, there's a few reasons that make sense in character to charge more, but just as many not to. And quite a few more not to out of character.
You should at a minimum charge materials.
All the caster classes are feat starved as is, so spending a feat to make everyone's lives that much easier should be worth something. Favors, tips, priority on magic items found. . . something. It is a wasted feat. Feats are rare.
I have two things I end up doing based on how roleplay heavy the game is
if it is not role play heavy then the cost to craft is the only charge, mostly in these games I can get time hand waved as well so it just boosts the parties power.
2. is in a more roleplay heavy game I ask who are you to me, are family close friend business partner, etc. If any of these answers are more on the lines of friends and family then you get it at cost, if the answer is more business or not as close you get it at 75% of cost, you save 25% over all and I gain 25%
in a level 10 game one of my players picked up all the crafting he could with the starting gold the other players paid him for almost all of their gear, he followed option 2 so one player got things for cost, and the other two paid the price but in the end they saved and he profited everyone walked away thinking they had the better deal
, basic definition of a fair deal. at least according to my economics professor
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The intent of a crafting feat is for the crafter to increase their own power by crafting and thus exceeding the normal WBL for their level.
As a crafter, you should NEVER, EVER pay to craft someone else's loot. They should ALWAYS pay you at least cost.
When I craft, I charge a 10% increase for "Luxury" items. Basically, things that are not "Big Six" items and things that take more than a few days to craft.
Time spent crafting for others is time that can't be spent crafting for yourself. While you do receive a benefit from powerful allies, the intent is to increase your power. So yes, it's great that the fighter has his +2 Belt of Strength, but if that comes at the cost of my +2 Cloak of Resistance, and it turns out I really needed that Cloak of Resistance to make a save versus Phantasmal Killer, it doesn't help me so much that the fighter has a +2 belt.
I find that this strikes a fair balance.
Also, be wary of parties that will go of adventuring while you are stuck in town crafting. It's no fun when your party gains a level and a bunch of loot while you're stuck in town crafting items for them. That's a big slap in the face.
If the wizard is profiteering off the fighter he's asking to have the fighter charge for his services. He can pretty much name his price since there aren't listed prices for hiring heroes.
Worst argument ever.
The wizards party role IS NOT CRAFTER.
If the Wizard party role was crafter, you would be right, but it isn't.
IF the Wizard feels the need to waste a feat to make your life easier ABOVE ANY BEYOND his role, then you should be happy to get items at a reduced rate, whatever that reduced rate is.
I always make the following offer to Warriors who make the above statement:
"IF you take Skill Focus (Spellcraft) AND devote 1 rank/level to spell craft so you can assist in making your own items, I will charge materials only. Otherwise, don't whine. You get a lot more feats than I do. I get more skill ranks than you do. It balances out."
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Yay, another wall of text! ^_^
@Atarlost: Uggh, you ALREADY have appropriate WBL WITHOUT crafting things for you at half price or 20% off. You ALREADY have what you need to save my life. What you are getting from the crafter is a bonus, not a baseline. It's the CRAFTERS bonus, too. When he crafts for you, he's not crafting for himself. I have to weigh whether the extra +2 on your sword is worth more than the two new items I wanted for myself...at 20, 30, 40kgp items, we're talking about MONTHS of in game crafting...unless it is rushed. Because you won't get 8 hrs a day for 20, 30 and 40 days at a time. The bonus cash I charge you will go towards purchasing the item I would have been crafting for myself but can't because now I am crafting your item instead. Crafting for you at cost....well, now you can see why that is a bad idea for me (but awesome as heck for you).
John, I tried that argument and it seems to be glossed over in favor of 'you are helping the party, everything is free'. And yeah, 100% from shopkeepers is fine but 75% from a party member is 'everything is a business transaction with you, uggh'.
I also brought up the cleric charging for healing 'in advance' because I KNEW that argument was coming. People can't help but bring that one up and he misunderstood my intent when I mentioned it originally (which was to handle the future argument of 'well clerics should charge for healing').
He said I was a hypocrite because this character is greedy only when it comes to his crafting. I guess when I take golem crafting I should be giving control of them to the players as well? Wth is that? Also, my character at level 4-5 had 600 gp....saved from 1st level. Buys only rations because he can't afford to buy anything else or risk being destitute. He possess NO magic items- at all. NO gear other than the starting. Craft wondrous item was my way of getting some (if we ever get downtime). But not spending the *extremely* precious downtime making things for the party that's taken or destroyed all my wbl is clearly 'negative'. And if I do make things for them (instead of myself) I'd be bad for charging less than they'd pay anywhere else but more than I paid to make it....
Every adventuring group is NOT a bunch of friends. That's unrealistic. A hell of a lot are mercenaries, people who hate each other, folks who are forced together due to circumstance, etc.
Also, my current character plans to build a tower, enchant it with tons of permanent spells, craft golem guardians, etc. This is months of crafting/building/enchanting and will take HORDES of cash. I'm in NO WAY building this with the intent of it being the parties tower and the parties personal golems under command of people not named 'my character'. Though, they can visit, stay, know command words, etc. But it's my place. Is this somehow selfish that I choose to spend my personal wealth making my own vision and not someone elses? I still help in adventuring, using my spells and other portions of my wealth on gear for assisting in combat. But is not 'giving' every single resource I have, in this case my home and personal guardians and test subjects now me being stingy and evil and deserving of disapproval? What happens when, while I am trying to build all of this and I am halfway through, a PC requests that I make them some magic thing that takes 2-3 weeks to do? This sets back my construction timeline substantially. Almost any game, even ones really, really casual about time are going to recognize this is a very clear setback for my goal. Since my time is obviously valuable (in terms of just getting things done, let alone adventuring, etc) Doggan seems to be implying that I should stop what I am doing (if it will help the party) and make the item and not charge anything more than what it cost me to make it, despite the player normally needing to pay twice as much for the object in question- or not even being able to find it at all. But now I am *personally* set back. I have extreme difficulty seeing someone in that position NOT charging extra (and a lot) for the item.....perhaps even more than the store cost. This isn't a business transaction, it's just....an issue. I need x months to get my goal done, you're asking me to increase that timeline by no fewer than +1 months. I possibly won't have that extra month to build before having to go adventure, etc.
James Jacobs (or maybe it was another developer) has specifically called out the crafting feats as serving little benefit if the crafter was not able to increase their wbl via the feat. But like any feat it can be abused. Leadership is an example. A party of people with that is broken. A party of people with craft feats is broken.
Not every single possible action and feature on a character needs to be devoted to 'sharing' with everyone else...I don't think I would even want to play in that sort of game. Yes, I expect healing from my cleric and she better damn well expect me to nuke stuff before it gets her. I also expect our fighter to get out there and fight. And he should expect support from me and healing from the cleric when needed. We expect the rogue to search for traps, warn us of danger, etc. This is part of adventuring.
But when the bard performs in a tavern does he have to split his gold earned? Do I have to share the wealth I make from the craft skill or profession checks? When the rogue pulls off sleight of hand and steals 5k gp in loot from a pouch does he have to share? This is stupid. I don't WANT my parties rogue sharing their theft. This doesn't even make sense now.
When I choose to craft magic arms and armor for myself, I can fight better and that helps the group. I am sharing. Just because I have not extended it to the group BEYOND that or just because I DO extend it to the group but choose to charge for it in no way makes me greedy.
If, I can craft for the entire group and give them all the wbl benefits of my crafting feat then it screws up the entire game sooner or later. Yes, if one guy has 5x wbl it's a problem. This is why some restrictions should be in place to keep a game sane. ~2x wbl for each person with a craft feat is balanced. This means they can choose how much of their personal wealth they are giving away to the party. This happens every time they craft for someone else, and whether or not they craft at cost. Because crafting at cost is 50% of the item value. This comes out of the crafters personal wbl and limits how much he can craft (or would want to) for anyone, including himself.
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My wizard charges 65%. I see on these messages boards all the time people saying the party should chip in to buy the cleric his first wand of CLW but that has never happened for me. I do it because even though there is little reason for me to cast hast on myself the party loves it when I can pull out a want to cast it on them. So yeah I charge over cost but this way I can have items that you would like for me to use on you when the time comes.
I do it because I like being the one that's in charge of the party's disposable funds. We are playing kingmaker right now and something just happened that hit our kingdom in the coffer hard and my wizard was able to just give the kingdom 50,000 GP. Everyone else had they're gold spent. I think if I hadn't done this it would have been the end of the campaign.
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My wizard charges 65%. I see on these messages boards all the time people saying the party should chip in to buy the cleric his first wand of CLW but that has never happened for me. I do it because even though there is little reason for me to cast hast on myself the party loves it when I can pull out a want to cast it on them. So yeah I charge over cost but this way I can have items that you would like for me to use on you when the time comes.
I do it because I like being the one that's in charge of the party's disposable funds. We are playing kingmaker right now and something just happened that hit our kingdom in the coffer hard and my wizard was able to just give the kingdom 50,000 GP. Everyone else had they're gold spent. I think if I hadn't done this it would have been the end of the campaign.
Our group always divides the treasure PCs+1 ways. The spare pool of funds is the party funds, all our group healing, buffing, and transportation costs come out of that.
Why charge the cleric 750 gp so he can have the honor of healing you? (wand)
Why charge the Wizard so he can recite a scroll of overland flight for you?
Why charge the Sorcerer 11,250 so she can cast haste on the party? (wand)
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I love these threads because the subtext of each person's view on the subject really reveals how their group handles PC interactions and group dynamics. The more mercenary opinions seem to come from people where groups work hard and downtime is just another name for roleplay time to advance your goals. The more altruistic opinions seem to come from groups where the PCs are just assumed to be working together.
In the middle you have the all the various combinations.
Of course, that is why we will never reach an accord on this. Each group handles treasure in its own way and crafting is essentially making treasure so each group handles that in its own way. For some groups charging cost is the only way to go and for others giving a small discount is still a blessing.
My advice? Don't craft for the party. The intent behind the crafting feats was only designed to increase the feat takers WBL, effectively allowing them to create items at half cost.
If you start crafting for the party at cost, you essentially gave them a free feat without the burden of taking up thier time to use it.
Now, if you do decide to craft for the party, you have a few options.. The simplest: Charge them full price, and donate half of it to your church. This will ensure everyone's WBL is exactly where it should be.
The second. Do the math based on how many people are in your group and charge a percentage that keeps YOU at 2x the parties WBL. This option increases the entire parties WBL but keeps the 2x balance intended by the feat.
The 3rd. Ignore the percentages, charge an arbitrary amount, or nothing. Your choice. Ignore the WBL guidelines and intent behind the feat. (I generally go with this option. An arbitrary 5-10% is what I tend to use)
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Agreed Dr. Grecko and Karkon. I would change how my characters with craft feats use them based on the party I am in and players I play with as well as the campaign. THIS game with THESE players means no downtime, low gold, and players confiscated items they can't use, which I can. I'm the poorest person in the party and equipped with no gear beyond the starting...Of course my craft feats are for me and me alone. Barring the party being evil and me being a snivelling sidekick, almost all other forms of common sense demand I not use the craft feats for others. Otherwise, I may as well quit and make a new character since death will come hard and fast due to me wearing starting gear.....4 levels after starting.
It is exactly true that parties splitting treasure is the same as someone taking a crafting feat- except that the 'split' of value never has to be discussed because it's value purely for the person who took the feat. Value they can choose to apply the party treasure splitting rules to anyway they and their party works out. This is not some 'business arrangement'. It's just the way any and every party in existing operates. Depending on the nature of the group depends on how the crafter will respond to the use of their feat.
Personally, I *want* to craft some banners, horseshoes and things for our cavalier, ooc. Some of the things I would do free (as in I pay the entire cost). But I can't justify doing anything like that for him in any way IC or OOC.
A lot of good options given, thank you to all.
I think I have a solid grasp of how I will try to approach it now and I'll see if it works. I didn't intend to bring up the argument of the old thread, but people have different groups and different opinions so it was bound to happen I suppose.
Thanks again everyone.
John, I tried that argument and it seems to be glossed over in favor of 'you are helping the party, everything is free'. And yeah, 100% from shopkeepers is fine but 75% from a party member is 'everything is a business transaction with you, uggh'.
100% is fine from shopkeepers. That's expected. But yes, you're setting yourself up as another shopkeeper, albeit a shopkeeper giving a discount.
I also brought up the cleric charging for healing 'in advance' because I KNEW that argument was coming. People can't help but bring that one up and he misunderstood my intent when I mentioned it originally (which was to handle the future argument of 'well clerics should charge for healing').
I understood your intent perfectly. But I had the change the typical argument a bit. It wasn't about a cleric healing. It was about a cleric healing beyond anything necessary to save your life. It changes things.
He said I was a hypocrite because this character is greedy only when it comes to his crafting. I guess when I take golem crafting I should be giving control of them to the players as well? Wth is that? Also, my character at level 4-5 had 600 gp....saved from 1st level. Buys only rations because he can't afford to buy anything else or risk being destitute. He possess NO magic items- at all. NO gear other than the starting. Craft wondrous item was my way of getting some (if we ever get downtime). But not spending the *extremely* precious downtime making things for the party that's taken or destroyed all my wbl...
I said you were a hypocrite because of your argument that said crafting at full discount destroys the balance of WBL for a party. By charging, you're making your own wealth massively out of balance against not only your party, but by wealth by level in general. You seem to want to take it upon yourself to protect the sanctity of WBL, but completely ignore it when it comes to yourself gaining a massive increase well beyond what the chart shows.
Look, I can't know exactly what's going on with your game. You claimed no downtime at the start. Now you're saying that your party is somehow destroying all your loot and WBL? Well of course you shouldn't be crafting for them in that case. But if your party is making you destitute, from a purely RP standpoint, why the hell are you still with that party? It seems like you're making a situation to specifically go along with this argument. I'll give you this much. If you're in a game that is a mercenary group, or a party that is adventuring together but all dislike each other (silly situation) fine. Charge people.
Also, my current character plans to build a tower, enchant it with tons of permanent spells, craft golem guardians, etc. This is months of crafting/building/enchanting and will take HORDES of cash. I'm in NO WAY building this with the intent of it being the parties tower and the parties personal golems under command of people not named 'my character'. Though, they can visit, stay, know command words, etc. But it's my place. Is this somehow selfish that I choose to spend my personal wealth making my own vision and not someone elses? I still help in adventuring, using my spells and other portions of my wealth on gear for assisting in combat. But is not 'giving' every single resource I have, in this case my home and personal guardians and test subjects now me being stingy and evil and deserving of disapproval? What happens when, while I am trying to build all of this and I am halfway through, a PC requests that I make them some magic thing that takes 2-3 weeks to do? This sets back my construction timeline substantially. Almost any game, even ones really, really casual about time are going to recognize this is a very clear setback for my goal. Since my time is obviously valuable (in terms of just getting things done, let alone adventuring, etc) Doggan seems to be implying that I should stop what I am doing (if it will help the party) and make the item and not charge anything more than what it cost me to make it, despite the player normally needing to pay twice as much for the object in question- or not even being able to find it at all. But now I am *personally* set back. I have extreme difficulty seeing someone in that position NOT charging extra (and a lot) for the item.....perhaps even more than the store cost. This isn't a business transaction, it's just....an issue. I need x months to get my goal done, you're asking me to increase that timeline by no fewer than +1 months. I possibly won't have that extra month to build before having to go adventure, etc.
Okay, I'll put most of this paragraph to it being late, and maybe you just misunderstood some of the things I said instead of being purposely obtuse.
1: I understand personal goals. If you want to do all the crazy stuff involved in building a tower...great. You built it with your money. It's yours. You choose to share that how you want. Just like an item you craft with your own money is yours. Do what you will with it.2: I never once said you have to drop whatever you're doing to craft for your party at any given time. You finish your personal goal if that's what you're doing. People can wait until you're done.
To turn that on it's head though, since you're so up in arms about time being valuable and whatnot. In this specific argument, you're forcing your party to sit around and wait for you for months on end. Would you have a problem if they just left you behind and continued adventuring while you built your tower? Somehow I think you'd end up upset at that too.
3: I never said that you have to use your own wealth to craft for the party. I've specifically said that crafter should always receive cost at the least.
Not every single possible action and feature on a character needs to be devoted to 'sharing' with everyone else...I don't think I would even want to play in that sort of game. Yes, I expect healing from my cleric and she better damn well expect me to nuke stuff before it gets her. I also expect our fighter to get out there and fight. And he should expect support from me and healing from the cleric when needed. We expect the rogue to search for traps, warn us of danger, etc. This is part of adventuring.
But when the bard performs in a tavern does he have to split his gold earned? Do I have to share the wealth I make from the craft skill or profession checks? When the rogue pulls off sleight of hand and steals 5k gp in loot from a pouch does he have to share? This is stupid. I don't WANT my parties rogue sharing their theft. This doesn't even make sense now.
You're correct. Not every feature needs to be shared. But crafting feats are a special difference there. It's not something that's easily available for anyone. As I said before, the non-magic classes have to invest more than twice as much as any caster to get any crafting feat. And then more money-wise ontop of that. Bards performing in taverns, profession checks. No these things should not be shared. But they're minor amounts of money. If your Rogue is managing to steal 5k worth of loot from pouches, your DM is probably doing something wrong and I'd absolutely love to play in your game. The rogue pickpocketing is actually a terrible example for your argument, because the rogue puts himself at risk of capture, harm and even death when he chooses to do such a thing.
When I choose to craft magic arms and armor for myself, I can fight better and that helps the group. I am sharing. Just because I have not extended it to the group BEYOND that or just because I DO extend it to the group but choose to charge for it in no way makes me greedy.
If, I can craft for the entire group and give them all the wbl benefits of my crafting feat then it screws up the entire game sooner or later. Yes, if one guy has 5x wbl it's a problem. This is why some restrictions should be in place to keep a game sane. ~2x wbl for each person with a craft feat is balanced. This means they can choose how much of their personal wealth they are giving away to the party. This happens every time they craft for someone else, and whether or not they craft at cost. Because crafting at cost is 50% of the item value. This comes out of the crafters personal wbl and limits how much he can craft (or would want to) for anyone, including himself.
It does make you greedy, actually. For the reasons I stated above of skewing your personal wealth well beyond the party. You're actually making money off of a feat that you should never be making money from. Magic items are designed to be sold at 50% of value when sold to NPCs. So when selling to your party for more than that, you're using the feat for gain beyond what it was designed for. Ultimately though, it's not up to the players to police WBL. That's up to the DM.
It's pretty plain we'll never agree on this topic.