alchemist extracts question and focus

[vash1124]

i am playing an alchemist in a pathfinder game and my gm pointed out that i technically cannot cast fly and truestrike because they have a focus requirement however it appears on my spell list does this mean i cannot cast it and if so whhy is it on my spell list

"Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level. Creating extracts consumes raw materials, but the cost of these materials is insignificant—comparable to the valueless material components of most spells. If a spell normally has a costly material component, that component is expended during the consumption of that particular extract. Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement). An alchemist can prepare an extract of any formula he knows. To learn or use an extract, an alchemist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the extract’s level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an alchemist’s extract is 10 + the extract level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. An alchemist may know any number of formulae. He stores his formulae in a special tome called a formula book. He must refer to this book whenever he prepares an extract but not when he consumes it. An alchemist begins play with two 1stlevel formulae of his choice, plus a number of additional forumlae equal to his Intelligence modifier. At each new alchemist level, he gains one new formula of any level that he can create. An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs and time requirements. An alchemist can study a wizard’s spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them."

[Weirdo]

I would assume the restriction was intended to apply to expensive focuses.

A good rule is that the specific overrides the general - if it says you can't cast spells with focuses, but two spells with focuses are specifically on your spell list you can assume that those spells are allowed.

[bookrat]

Agreed.

[lock wood]

you should talk to your GM about it and accept what ever ruling he go's with

[Ximen Bao]

lock wood wrote:

you should talk to your GM about it and accept what ever ruling he go's with

That said, a GM who chooses not to apply specific trumps general to the alchemist is going to cripple the class and you'd be better off running a different class.

[lock wood]

i do agree that there a class can be cripple by to that this i do not think this is the case here if the only spells being affected are true strike and fly the class it self remands intact and still a good pick

[Ximen Bao]

lock wood wrote:

i do agree that there a class can be cripple by to that this i do not think this is the case here if the only spells being affected are true strike and fly the class it self remands intact and still a good pick

There are so many points in the alchemist class that are vulnerable to that kind of a reading of the rules.

The status of the alchemist as caster and the use of the body-mod discoveries leap to mind.

[vash1124]

well i thank you all for the opinions and ideas i was just confused about it the way it reads just seems to contradict itself alot and wanted to see if it was only me

[karrel]

The GM holds all the rights to view all information and then make his call, and the player should except the GM's call and play the class or move to something that is lined out better. My personnel out look on the class it stands next to the gunslinger class. When a class makes every attack as a touch attack then the game power curve has been swung far to the PC's side and there should be nothing the party could not handle. I know the game is about All Players having fun, however that should be true for the GM as well. I guess I miss the old days of AD&D when every thing was more balanced and the players were less power mongrels. Maybe I just need to retire from GMing and pass it on to some young one who loves to hack and slash and don't care if the people of the town live or die. In the old days it was about saving the NPC's and not just killing the creatures and stealing their items and selling for as much money so the PC's can buy even more crap to haul around. I sorry I get to ranting here main thing is have fun and let the GM do his job and figure out how he wants to run this matter and be happy. Good night to you all

[thejeff]

karrel wrote:

The GM holds all the rights to view all information and then make his call, and the player should except the GM's call and play the class or move to something that is lined out better. My personnel out look on the class it stands next to the gunslinger class. When a class makes every attack as a touch attack then the game power curve has been swung far to the PC's side and there should be nothing the party could not handle. I know the game is about All Players having fun, however that should be true for the GM as well. I guess I miss the old days of AD&D when every thing was more balanced and the players were less power mongrels. Maybe I just need to retire from GMing and pass it on to some young one who loves to hack and slash and don't care if the people of the town live or die. In the old days it was about saving the NPC's and not just killing the creatures and stealing their items and selling for as much money so the PC's can buy even more crap to haul around. I sorry I get to ranting here main thing is have fun and let the GM do his job and figure out how he wants to run this matter and be happy. Good night to you all

Unlike gunslingers, alchemists are limited in the number of touch attacks per day. They can also be played as Mr. Hyde types doing little with the bombs.

And I keep being told that "old school" was all about going into dungeons and killing monster for the loot with little to no plot and hardly even any logic behind which monsters were in which rooms. Playstyles vary. They always have. we still play to save the NPCs. The loot just helps us get better at saving them from bigger dangers.

[lock wood]

i do agree that player should except the gms call if they play somthing different that's fine to and i do agree that any thing that lets you hit on a Touch attack all the time like gun slinger is op with the highs touch ac in the beast1 being in the low 20s that being said i don't find the bombs that they use to be that bad as they are limited per day opposed to gun slinger(don't let this turn in to a debate over gun slinger plz they are already out there)

as for the pc not caring about the npc that really falls to the fact the we as a society have moved form the mind set of what can i do for you to a what can you do for me we give are kids every thing they ask and then wonder why they have no reason to move out of the parents house

that being said my advice would be to find players with same values as you this may produce the type of game you are looking for

[lock wood]

you got you post as i was typing mine lol good job i agree with thejeff

but i have played old school were there was lot of rime and reason behind it and i have played newer game where there was none to be found what so ever so the more thing change the more they stay the same

[thejeff]

lock wood wrote:

as for the pc not caring about the npc that really falls to the fact the we as a society have moved form the mind set of what can i do for you to a what can you do for me we give are kids every thing they ask and then wonder why they have no reason to move out of the parents house

that being said my advice would be to find players with same values as you this may produce the type of game you are looking for

Yeah, "kids these days". Whatever. That rant goes back to the ancient Greeks at least. Maybe kids have trouble moving out because we're in a Recession and even for years before that housing costs (and college costs) were very high compared to entry level jobs?

And as I said above, both playstyles (and more) have always existed. The game was originally designed as little more than tactical monster killing and looting, but people quickly took the rules and ran with them for other styles of game. Modules today are definitely written with more attention to plot and motivation than the classic ones. I think that reflects changes in the overall style preferences.

Edit: And you replied while I was typing, but I'll leave it anyway. :)

[lock wood]

was not suggesting you remove your post in anyway

as for kids these days

I'm well a wear that it not that black and white. i was just poking fun and not trying to offend.

i do not know ever ones living arrangement or the reasons be hind them

[Baltoss]

One thing that comes to mind about Focuses and the extracts is that technically, Fly and True Strike could be on your spell list, to allow you to create Potions of those spells, using Brew Potion. It seems unusual, but it does work as written this way.