I'm perplexed by how this got moved to "Website Feedback".
Nerd, BBT and whomever else gets irritated by the use of "toon":
I understand where you are coming from. And as a technical person trained in the hard sciences I appreciate precision as much as the next person.
I just don't see any reason to make an issue of something like someone calling their PC a "toon". That's all.
Of course I once played World of Warcraft and enjoyed the heck out of it, so I guess that taints my opinion.
Even so, I've never yet had this conversation:
"Hey, look at my toon!"
"What do you mean 'toon'?"
"What are you some sort of illiterate goob? Everyone knows what a 'toon' is you moron! Where do you live, a cave?"But apparently some of you have.
Which is weird to me since it is so absurdly far out of my own experience.
Oh I think you misunderstand me AD, I said it is a pet peeve and annoys me a tiny bit. I won't nerd rage over it or call someone out on it, the topic of internet slang being use is the only reason I brought it up. I won't be throwing any kind of fit if someone says it to me IRL. For example, if it's their first time playing PF and they come from MMORPGs, but I kind of expect the TTRPGers to know better is my point. Perhaps I'm being a bit of a grognard here, but that's just my feeling on the matter.
Compared to imagined people whose entire existence fits on a double sided sheet of paper, yes, I am a god.
Compared to them I am functionally immortal. I can, if I want to enough to write a campaign, game at any point from the creation of the first life on Golarion to the day Rovagug finally gets out and devours the place. I can do so in any order without regard to chronology or causality.
If they had a sort of reality they would see only the veil of illusion I sit behind.
I am as far above my fictional creations as almighty God is above me. If avatar isn't the right term for the relationship I don't know what is.
Actually compared to your imaginary PC's and the imaginary god-like powers they gain in the course of their adventuring, you would be THEIR avatar... just sayin'
Now if you are referring to NPC's you create as the GM, perhaps those are your avatars in a sense as the GM is the builder of the world and can rain fire down upon all and lay complete waste to it. As a GM you are the one who makes the gods dance as puppets. You can play the Avatars (as per the definition) of gods in your world to interact with your players.
As far as the right term(s), I've already provided 3 of them for you: Player Character, PC (for short), or Character. Pretty simple really :)
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That sounds like an excuse to repost this, which many of you have probably already seen before.
I really miss The Brunching Shuttlecocks, that site was excellent.
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I am no hero
I am just a man who likes wearing tights and saving cats from trees while benchpressing trains
Uhm,
Is it ok if I call my cartoon character in TOON the RPG, a Toon? Or are we so far down the 'must be politically correct' road that we have to be stupid about stuff?
Ooops, sorry, my bad. Common sense withdrawn, continuing flaming away over who is more PC than the other.
I would smack my players on heads for calling their characters toon while we play anything else than TOON RPG exactly because we are not playing Toon.
I'd might also smack people on heads for calling monsters mobs unless those were animated objects.
I have no problem with people saying about tanks, controllers (which is somewhat false distinction, BTW, because tanks are just a subtype of controllers who manipulate combat conditions with their own body), strikers, healers buffs or debuffs. DPS is valid term only in GURPS, though, unless you divide the DPR by round's length.
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no you would not
and
disagree
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Wow, I'm surprised there's so much outcry over terminology here.
I've used YMMV somewhat gratuitously, as it is a pretty efficient shorthand for: "That's my opinion on the matter, but of course I understand others might play differently, so if you don't agree with it, that's perfectly reasonable, and I can certainly find your opinion valid as well." Seems a lot more succinct.
As for the Toons/Alts/Etc., I personally don't use them because they're not the first thing that comes to mind but honestly, is it that big a deal if a person who plays MMO's considers it an appropriate term? What if a WoW player referred to their characters as PC's? Is that not allowed?
They are both character avatars in a fictitious game world, and the player directs their actions. I really don't see a big enough difference that commonly used terms for one can't easily relate to the other.
But, uh... YMMV on all this, I guess.
SYM
You're welcome.
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Stating a preference, is not an outcry.
The response to the stated preference, has been an outcry.
To the point that there was name-calling, accusations of stupidity, ignorance, and even unwarranted assumptions of one's lifestyle.
I reiterate, a statement of "I prefer you wouldn't use that slang, as I am unfamiliar with it, and I find inapplicable, thus it cause me to be irritated" is not some sort attack.
@ BBT: Sorry, my post wasn't directed at anyone in particular (and perhaps 'outcry' was an exaggeration).
However, going with what you said here: "I prefer you wouldn't use that slang, as I am unfamiliar with it, and I find inapplicable, thus it cause me to be irritated"
If you're unfamiliar with the slang, then it's easy enough for someone who uses it to explain the usage and why. You've now expanded your knowledge of it, and wouldn't that generally be a good thing?
And I just don't see the terms as not being pretty much interchangeable in most cases. As I said above, I really find it hard to draw much difference between Toons/PC's, except for context and personal experience. People more familiar with MMO's may prefer Toon, while people more familiar with tabletops might prefer PC. They both mean the same thing though.
Having and stating a preference of one over the other is fine, but if it is a big enough annoyance that you want to force your preference on the terms others use, then, personally at least, I'd consider it an overreaction and an unwarranted push against how someone else speaks.
If you say that, and they respond with, "Oh, okay, I'll try to use PC more often in the future then," that's all well and good.
But by the same token that you're free to use the terminology you prefer, there's no reason they aren't allowed to use their own. If it bugs you, that's kind of an issue that you would need to deal with, not them. You might consider it the 'right' term to use, but I don't really think it's fair to say their's is 'wrong,' which would seem to be the general idea in asking them to change the habit.
Edit: ...And this is almost exactly the kind of post I would tack a YMMV on. So there's that.
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While you're all being "cute" with the acronyms and slang there is one thing to consider. It is, in fact, rude to chatter away using an argot / dialect / slang / language which others there don't understand. Really. It's a way of saying "we're a group" and you're not part of it. A bit of explanation or just toning back on the slang would be the polite thing to do. Try putting yourself in the place of the outsider. Think about people holding conversations in say... Middle English. In front of you. Maybe about you, for all you know. And, unless you're a Chaucer fan, you are going "wtf" (to use an acronym) and feeling left out and uneasy. When you get people together who share an esoteric hobby, it's kind of like that.
*edit* And while I was grading tests and letting this post age, like a fine wine, I was ninja'd (slang!) by Darkwolf117. To an extent :) (smiley!)
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Let's put it this way. I'm putting myself in the shoes of your fellow players. I use a term that I, and several people I regularly spend time with, use to describe a scenario. That term happens to come from video gaming/MMO culture, though it likely had an earlier origin that's what mostly popularized it.
Then all of a sudden I get the third degree from another guy at the table about how that term doesn't belong here and I should stop using it. Suddenly declaring himself the Speech Police and deciding what I can and cannot say. When I try to inform the guy that this is how I and my friends have always described this event/situation, he gets mad at me.
Damn right I'm gonna be offended.
It is a question of comprehensibility.
As long as a term is a easy to guess acronym of a game term (AC for armor class, but not for animal companion, the first is used in the rules , the second isn't) or can be found with a fast Internet search, it can be used in the forum with tranquility.
Same thing for your game table where it has a true and trite use (at my table we have used CLW [spoken as CLV] for cure light wounds for ages, so we have no problems), not when playing with strangers.
I am fairly sure that at a US convention people would ask me to explain what I man if I start speaking of CLV [maybe someone versed in Latin numerals will even ask what I mean with 155].
So it is well-mannered to avoid acronyms when playing with strangers.
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I guess you can call it a pet peeve of mine, just like I hate when people say "your" when they mean "you're" or "you are," this is not a "legally binding document" AD, just proper grammar is closer to how I view it. Yes, people should just have fun and play their characters however they want, but try to refer to things in the correct manner is all.
If by "say", you mean "say", then I'm glad we have never had a conversation, since I pronounce "your" and "you're" the same way and I doubt you'd be able to tell which word I was saying.
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Must not go off on rant about people using dumb internet slang ... Must not go off on rant about people using dumb internet slang ... Must not go off on rant about people using dumb internet slang ...
YMMV isn't (originally) internet slang. Back in the 70s it was a standard Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) disclaimer for auto manufacturers quoting miles per gallon (mpg) figures. It almost immediately became an idiomatic expression for any concept along the lines of 'results differ' or 'opinions differ' and has remained so. The use of the abbreviation, like most such, began on local bulletin board systems (BBSs) in the 80s rather than the internet. Much of that slang was then picked up by Usenet and from there has spread to various other forms of communication, most recently 'texting'.
So... ultimately this one is 'dumb EPA slang'.
By the way (BTW), I come down on the 'language evolves' side of the argument. Once a subgroup of people understands a particular set of sounds (or other symbols) to 'mean' something it is every bit as much 'real language' as anything else.
So it is well-mannered to avoid acronyms when playing with strangers.
Good thing that's not an issue then =)
The thing I learn most from conversations like these is just how many people are out there that I really just don't want to end up at the same table with.
And on that note, I think it's time for this thread to go away. We're going to be talking in circles and nobody's convincing anybody of anything. People who use slang are going to keep using it, people who are irritated by it are going to keep getting irritated until they adopt the slang or shove out the players who use it.
GDGDGGGDGDDGDGGDGDDGDGGDGGGDD.
Gimme dat, gimme dat, gimme, gimme, gimme dat
Gimme dat ding, gimme dat, gimme gimme dat
Gimme dat ding, gimme dat, gimme gimme dat
Gimme, gimme, gimme dat ding.
I expect this will be in common use by tomorrow morning.
So it is well-mannered to avoid acronyms when playing with strangers.
Or at least to explain what an acronym means.
And of course, someone should feel free to ask for clarification if they need it.
IMHO. YMMV. ;)
if you like a hobby and are enthusiastic about it you should want to share it and widen the appeal in order to give more people the option of sharing that great experience and that enthusiasm
teach them and show them by utilizing the language you prefer while not ostracizing them for the language they are currently using
you are a representation of your hobby just as much as any paizo employee and if you cannot step up to the plate on that notion on behalf those who are curious about pathfinder then you are most likely actively or unconsciously working toward the exclusion of a lot of great potential friends and fellow players
man I am just breezy as all get-out most of the time on here but you guys are forcing me to make sense for a little while and it is making my head hurt
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There's only two things I hate:
1)People who are intolerant of other people's (internet) cultures;
2)Grognards.
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!!
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I can see why use of the word "toon" to refer to a tabletop character would be annoying. First, it's a set of stats on a sheet, not an animated image. The use is inaccurate. Second, it sounds rather flippant. Third, if they use the term instead of their character's name while playing, it breaks the immersion.
I had to work with a player to stop using the word "mob" when referring to monsters in combat. This was also annoying, but also inefficient, especially since mobs can be a specific type of encounter in the game. Also, I got the feeling she wasn't paying enough attention during combat to actually remember what monsters the party was actually fighting.
'Had to work with' them? Wow...
If general gaming terms break your immersion while gaming, you may want to check your levels of immersion.
Like with a therapist.
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That's probably because you live in a cave.I'm perplexed by how this got moved to "Website Feedback".
Nerd, BBT and whomever else gets irritated by the use of "toon":
I understand where you are coming from. And as a technical person trained in the hard sciences I appreciate precision as much as the next person.
I just don't see any reason to make an issue of something like someone calling their PC a "toon". That's all.
Of course I once played World of Warcraft and enjoyed the heck out of it, so I guess that taints my opinion.
Even so, I've never yet had this conversation:
"Hey, look at my toon!"
"What do you mean 'toon'?"
"What are you some sort of illiterate goob? Everyone knows what a 'toon' is you moron! Where do you live, a cave?"But apparently some of you have.
Which is weird to me since it is so absurdly far out of my own experience.
So! It's a nice cave!
What are you, cavist?
To those who raise their fists to the heavens and decry slang: did you know that omg, fyi, and lol are now in the Oxford English dictionary? Because the thing is, language isn't stagnant - it's a constantly evolving, growing, living thing defined by the people that use it. It's why we don't speak Ye Olde English (or Americans the King's English for that matter).
Language can be artistic, but first and foremost its purpose is to convey ideas. It's one thing to see a slang term and have no idea what it means, because in that case, there was a failure to communicate. It's entirely another to see a slang term, understand it, and yet claim that the term is somehow improper.
Doughnuts or donuts? Because it's only a matter of time before the latter replaces the former.
No, it ain't! :P
One odd quirk i've noticed that I never really understood is "emphasis mine". I have seen people post a quote, bold the part that they want to talk about and then precede the post explaining their views with "emphasis mine" like I somehow didn't know that they were going to talk about the bolded section of their quote? When did this start happening and what is the point? I am curious as I don't understand why people do it.
It is considered polite to notify about any changes made to the quote from the original form. They do not tell you that they want to speak about bold part, they tell you that they added the bold style as it wasn't the part of the quoted text in the first place.
One odd quirk i've noticed that I never really understood is "emphasis mine". I have seen people post a quote, bold the part that they want to talk about and then precede the post explaining their views with "emphasis mine" like I somehow didn't know that they were going to talk about the bolded section of their quote? When did this start happening and what is the point? I am curious as I don't understand why people do it.
You make a point of saying "emphasis mine" when you've edited an existing post to bold/italicize/whatever the particular point you're responding to, so that no accuses you of tomfoolery.
Edit: Ninja'd by Drejk.
AM Barbarian, as near as I can figure, comes from someone figuring out a game-breaking, cheesy build and presenting it in character, on these very boards.
Obvious Troll is Obvious is something I post on message boards to dismiss someone who is trolling for the sake of lowbrow entertainment.
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'Had to work with' them? Wow...
If general gaming terms break your immersion while gaming, you may want to check your levels of immersion.Like with a therapist.
Yes, as in I had to work with them to get them out of the habit of using the word.
Thanks for questioning my sanity for wanting a game where I'm not being distracted by things that fall out of the purview for my game. Would you be able to take a game seriously if one person at the table demanded that their character be referred to at all times as "King Kickass" for example? It's no different than running a serious game where one player has to play everything for slapstick and cheap laughs.
I think the AM thing was borne from tank builds in general dropping INT or CHA to the point their language skills suffered, like instead of saying "I am a barbarian", it comes out "AM BARBARIAN".
Yeah it is different.
One is a completly purposeful naming of ones character to tweak a serious RP'er.
The other is an innocent use of a gaming term.
I'm not exactly questioning your sanity, it's more a ponderance of "Why so serious?".
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Hee hee!
The most legendary character that has ever been played at my table was known as Stompass III.
Yeah it is different.
One is a completly purposeful naming of ones character to tweak a serious RP'er.
The other is an innocent use of a gaming term.I'm not exactly questioning your sanity, it's more a ponderance of "Why so serious?".
You see it as innocent, I see it as lazy. I don't do MMORPGs. I only know the terms second-hand, same with a lot of my players. The group has an acceptable collection of terminology that everyone (including the MMO players) understand. Leaving off one to adopt the other isn't hard and accommodates the many over the one. Also, it's not that hard to take a look at the map and say "I'll shoot the goblin on the stairs" rather than absently wave a hand and say "I'll shoot the mob over on the left there."
Suggesting I might need therapy implies my mental stability is in question. (See, language is important.) Insisting a person use the correct terminology in a situation isn't overly serious, it's just an easy way to facilitate understanding.
If that doesn't get my point across, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Every table has that one guy that exepcts everyone to cater to his 'unique and awesome roleplayin' skeelz'.
I have had to endure one before, hence my perhaps overly harsh responses.
Agree to disagree we shall.
It is considered polite to notify about any changes made to the quote from the original form. They do not tell you that they want to speak about bold part, they tell you that they added the bold style as it wasn't the part of the quoted text in the first place.Ah, ok then. I guess I saw some people using it incorrectly then because I have seen people on the forums asking "Is there a rule x for situation y?" and someone will post the word for word rules from the CRB with the section that they need bolded and use the emphasis mine statement.
It is the same idea as with single words. But the rules can interact so many ways, and can be interpreted a number of ways, so they are highlighting the ones they think are important to the question asked, even if the rules could be perceived differently in other situations.
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What is YMMV? Try finding it on the web and you get "Your Mileage May Very"
When used here in the forum what does YMMV mean?
I thought it was "your mom's mighty va
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Let say I am a fan of a game called Shmorgen.
When you play, you are playing a Shmergen.
The game has many slang directly related to it.
I tell the DM "I statbased a Shmergen, who pops nems from faray, so I need to know the dis of any shmelts I glassy."
DM answers: "What are you talking about? I need you to use terminology I can understand."
I decide to be defensive "Um, I can call it anything I like, English is totally a living language man. Stop nerdragehating me, just because I play Shmorgen."
DM replies: "I really don't care what you play. I want to understand you, and I don't feel I need to learn a whole new slew of terminology for a game that I don't play. Please just don't use it here."
I counter: "Well, I shouldn't have to put up with your purposeful ignorance of the slang and terminology of Shmorgen. I am tired of your stupid superiority of hobbies man."
DM sighs, then answers: "Look, I don't find any superior, I don't care who uses it, I just want to understand, so don't use it here."
I raise my voice, and reply: "Frikken shmoob, I am leaving, and you can keep playing your supposedly superior game, and use your superior slang. You are just a stupid neckbeard hating on other's fun."
Now, is the DM here really all that bad, or was I at fault?
The difference being you know what a tank is. You know what dps is. You know what a mob is. These aren't made up terms from thin air like your examples.
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The difference being you know what a tank is. You know what dps is. You know what a mob is. These aren't made up terms from thin air like your examples.
For some, the terminology might as well be completely made up.
There is no difference to those who are unfamiliar.
If you read the example above, then you should see how it seems to others.
