Precise shot, point blank shot, and rapid shot are generic to ranged attacks. Many shot on the other hand is specific to bows.
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What's the feat where you lead in with a ranged attack and if it hits, next round you get a bonus to melee?
Also, some feat/trait to boost range so dagger's more effective thrown.
Opening Volley is the feat.
River Rat gives +1 damage w/daggers but I don't think it improves range - probably something else.
Strong Arm, Supple Wrist increases the range by 10 feet once per round on a thrown weapon if you move 10 feet beforehand.
Far throw/shot, the distance property.
TheKnife Fighter archetype from a contest here on the boards always seemed like it could be fun.
Well, that saves me some trouble...
This is roughly what I'm considering:
Human Fighter (Weapon Master or Two-Weapon Warrior)
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 12Feats:
1st Level: Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Dagger)
2nd Level: Point Blank Shot
3rd Level: Far Shot
4th Level: Weapon Specialization: Dagger
5th Level: Distance Thrower
6th Level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (pick up DEX 17 at 4th level)
I originally picked up Two-Weapon Defense at first level instead of Quick Draw, but weighing the options I decided +1AC wasn't worth the cost. By 5th level this guy essentially has a 30 foot range with daggers at no penalty. I'm kind of horrible at doing the math on iterative attacks, but even with the slower speed (I'd be going with Scale Mail at level 1, probably upgrading to Chainmail ASAP, so 20 foot ground speed) he'd probably be fine, provided he could carry enough daggers.
I was also considering investing in Craft (Weapons) and having him carve his own bone/obsidian daggers at some point, and then picking up the Disposable Weapon feat for a bit of extra crit damage.
I absolutely love Distance Thrower.
I would talk to your dm and ask him to house rule daggers into the close weapon group and then take the brawler archetype. Its my favorite fighter archetype and would really work well thematically with the build your describing.
Just to revive this question briefly: If I was going to try this out as a PFS character, what traits (besides River Rat, which is obvious) would be best? I considered Mind Over Matter, but I don't think a primary fighter build would be a good fit for the Lantern Lodge, since their missions tend to require diplomacy. I was thinking of Andoran (for that trait that gives you +1 to Acrobatics and Swim, and gives you one of those as a class skill), or Cheliax (thematically kind of awesome, plus they have that trait where you can get temp HP once per session when something dies).
Why not use a large dagger for mainhand and do regular TWF? Also, go for clustered shots and you can get some serious hurt in with thrown against normally monstrous DR.
Why not use a large dagger for mainhand and do regular TWF? Also, go for clustered shots and you can get some serious hurt in with thrown against normally monstrous DR.
The main reason not to go for a large dagger in the main hand is that it defeats one of the main advantages of being a dagger fighter in the first place: all of your weapons are interchangeable. It doesn't matter which dagger I throw and which one I use in melee, because they're all the same to me.
Clustered Shots is a solid recommendation, though, but I wonder if it has the same issue that Snap Shot does: it affects "ranged weapon attacks", not "ranged attacks". Daggers are thrown weapons, but because they can be used effectively in melee they aren't usually classed as "ranged weapons", per the rules in the Equipment section of the Core rulebook.
Certainly this is a build that will suffer vs creatures with DR. I've been thinking about ways to mitigate this, such as:
- Carrying a sack of clubs to use as melee/throwing weapons vs Skeletons and such.
- Silversheen
- Eventually investing in a pair of +1 Keen Mithral Returning Daggers, when money allows.
Do you provoke when throwing weapons in melee? Honestly I've never built a character that does it, I've wanted to but my group optimizes too much. And if you have quick draw you can just continually throw your offhand.
Edit- aff, yes it does provoke. Me being retarded. But with enough range you can just toss your other daggers.
EditEdit- Why not just use Close-Quarters Thrower, and then melee throw your daggers through their DR?
Do you provoke when throwing weapons in melee? Honestly I've never built a character that does it, I've wanted to but my group optimizes too much. And if you have quick draw you can just continually throw your offhand.
Edit- aff, yes it does provoke. Me being retarded. But with enough range you can just toss your other daggers.
EditEdit- Why not just use Close-Quarters Thrower, and then melee throw your daggers through their DR?
Why would you ever throw weapons into melee? If they're in melee, you can just stab 'em.
Again, the problem with having a 'special' main hand weapon is that it cuts the versatility that is one of the only real selling points of the build (well, besides fun). If I want to let loose with a full fusillade of daggers this round, and then close into melee next round, I can. If I'm only throwing off-hand daggers, then I'm cutting down the number of available attacks, and wasting my main hand attack opportunity.
Ideally, the way this works is that in a combat where we haven't closed with the enemy yet, while the other 2H fighter is deciding whether he should charge and risk lowering his AC, or moving in normally for a single attack, I'm full-attacking with a wave of daggers and waiting for the enemy to close with me.
If they don't close? That's fine, I can throw more daggers. With a Strength of 16, and wielding weapons that cost 2gp a pop, I can buy/carry enough daggers to more or less guarantee that I can full-attack almost every round of combat at low levels.
I definitely think the build could have problems in the late game, but it'll be more of a tapering off of power than absolute unplayability. I think after 6-8 levels of fighter (long enough to get improved critical) a dip into Rogue (Knife Fighter Archetype) would put you in a nice position to "retire" into a role as a flank partner for another fighter.
If you're looking at using a Dagger, why not go with a small race?
While where the +2/-2 stat bumps for race aren't exactly prime for a fighter type. You do get a +1 to hit for small size and a +1 to AC. While the damage die goes from a 1D4 to a 1D3.
I actually considered this, as both Halfling (Dex bonus, better saves) and Gnome (Con bonus, nice racials) are good candidates, but neither is really suitable for two reasons:
1. Because this build attempts to maximize both melee and throwing attacks, it is very feat-hungry.
2. The Strength penalty hurts, because it lowers the damage of both your melee and ranged attacks with this build.
I think if I was going with a Rogue-based knife build instead of Fighter (where most of the damage is coming from Sneak Attack damage anyway), Halfling/Gnome/Goblin would all be solid choices.
Do you provoke when throwing weapons in melee? Honestly I've never built a character that does it, I've wanted to but my group optimizes too much. And if you have quick draw you can just continually throw your offhand.
Edit- aff, yes it does provoke. Me being retarded. But with enough range you can just toss your other daggers.
EditEdit- Why not just use Close-Quarters Thrower, and then melee throw your daggers through their DR?
Why would you ever throw weapons into melee? If they're in melee, you can just stab 'em.
Again, the problem with having a 'special' main hand weapon is that it cuts the versatility that is one of the only real selling points of the build (well, besides fun). If I want to let loose with a full fusillade of daggers this round, and then close into melee next round, I can. If I'm only throwing off-hand daggers, then I'm cutting down the number of available attacks, and wasting my main hand attack opportunity.
Ideally, the way this works is that in a combat where we haven't closed with the enemy yet, while the other 2H fighter is deciding whether he should charge and risk lowering his AC, or moving in normally for a single attack, I'm full-attacking with a wave of daggers and waiting for the enemy to close with me.
If they don't close? That's fine, I can throw more daggers. With a Strength of 16, and wielding weapons that cost 2gp a pop, I can buy/carry enough daggers to more or less guarantee that I can full-attack almost every round of combat at low levels.
I definitely think the build could have problems in the late game, but it'll be more of a tapering off of power than absolute unplayability. I think after 6-8 levels of fighter (long enough to get improved critical) a dip into Rogue (Knife Fighter Archetype) would put you in a nice position to "retire" into a role as a flank partner for another fighter.
Well, lets say you only use regular daggers. You throw them using full strength instead of half and you only apply DR once. That and you add more attacks via rapid shot.
All good questions. Again, the problem is feat cost. Eventually, yes, this build would pick up all of those things. But what's more useful: being able to throw daggers into melee (essentially duplicating the melee function of daggers), or being able to throw those daggers another range increment without penalty?
Clearly Clustered shots is a good option, but it forces you to stay at range when fighting creatures with DR. Given the cheapness and lightness of daggers, perhaps a better solution is to either carry silver/cold iron/etc daggers with you, or invest in something like mithral or adamantine returning daggers.
As it is, I think my own build could be improved by swapping Quick Draw or Weapon Focus at 1st level for Opening Volley, because +4 to your first melee attack in the second round at level 1 (when you're going to be whiffing more than you ever) is probably more valuable than saving a move action to draw weapons, or a simple +1 to your attacks. Obviously both Quick Draw and Weapon Focus are necessities in the long run, but I'm strongly reconsidering the priority that I put on Point Blank Shot/Far Shot.
EDIT: Stylistically, I feel like this character should be in Light Armor, but mechanically I just can't justify it. Any suggestions?