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So the right gear at just the right time as you level suddenly becomes available at shops you go to?No, but as you level you get access to new areas that have wider arrays of things.Not even this TOZ.
It's downright asinine to say someone is running their game so that the GM says 'Oh, well, you are level 7 now, +2 weapons are now in shops'. It's just plain dumb.
People in my games walk into a shop that sells magic items at level 1, they see the gleaming +1 swords on the wall, and the case in the back with the +2 or +1 flaming bardiches, and they look at their purses, with 200gp in them, and reluctantly go to the 1st level potions on the shelf near the counter and buy two or three healing potions.
Shallowsoul constantly tries to portray everyone else as running a video game world, when they don't. The shops have all those nifty +1's and +2's and even a few +3's the entire time. You don't control access to them by not having them in the store, you control it by the fact the PCs don't have 50,000 gp at level 1 to buy them.
The shops have what they have, things you want, things you don't, things you can afford, and things you can't afford for 10 levels. If everyone wants to pool their money and get the Barbarian a +2 bastard sword at level 4, and everyone else uses MW items for 2 more levels, go for it, the group's WBL is on target, they chose to get the tank the big bad sword. It's a perfectly valid tactic, until you're the guy in MW leather getting hit by +1 magic swords.
Thanks for actually strengthening my argument.
You portray a shop as actually stocking up on weapons that are more powerful than the PCs have and even items they won't be available for a long time to come, and this knowledge was easily obtained because the PCs just walked in, inquired about the price, found out they couldn't afford it and left. Which in turn you have to ask yourself this question. If the shop has really powerful items and the kniwledge is easily obtainable then what's stopping really powerful enemies from stealing them?
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If the shop has really powerful items and the kniwledge is easily obtainable then what's stopping really powerful enemies from stealing them?
The same thing stopping you from walking into Best Buy and jacking that 52" flat screen.
The same thing stopping you from walking into Bank of America and taking all the cash.
Question.
How do PCs know its suddenly time for them to upgrade?
Also, how would your PC describe needing those specific items that are required of a certain build? How does your PC know to go into a shop looking for an agile weapon when they have probably never heard of one?
The same way I know it's time to buy a new car -- it's shiny, I can afford it, I like it and I want it.
How do PCs know its suddenly time for them to upgrade?
Also, how would your PC describe needing those specific items that are required of a certain build? How does your PC know to go into a shop looking for an agile weapon when they have probably never heard of one?
1. Usually when they have a big pile of gold sitting around and they wonder what they should do with it.
2. Knowledge checks. Character knowledge passed on through mentors. Helpful NPCs.
First, it's rarely "suddenly time for them to upgrade". PCs, imho, should more or less operate like actual people. Meaning that when they get an opportunity to improve their station in life, they do so. For me that might mean upgrading from a Toyota Corolla to a BMW if I get a big promotion. For an adventurer it means upgrading armor or weapons or magic items.
Their motivation should be to get better at what they do. They shouldn't be thinking in terms of CR or leveling up, just getting better. By getting better they defeat existing challenges and are presented with more difficult challenges, in most cases this is because they are working their way up the ladder towards the BBEG. But even in a "sandbox" campaign it just means they have better stuff and can tackle bigger challenges. Those bigger challenges typically have more loot and thus the cycle continues.
So the right gear at just the right time as you level suddenly becomes available at shops you go to?No, but as you level you get access to new areas that have wider arrays of things.Not even this TOZ.
It's downright asinine to say someone is running their game so that the GM says 'Oh, well, you are level 7 now, +2 weapons are now in shops'. It's just plain dumb.
People in my games walk into a shop that sells magic items at level 1, they see the gleaming +1 swords on the wall, and the case in the back with the +2 or +1 flaming bardiches, and they look at their purses, with 200gp in them, and reluctantly go to the 1st level potions on the shelf near the counter and buy two or three healing potions.
Shallowsoul constantly tries to portray everyone else as running a video game world, when they don't. The shops have all those nifty +1's and +2's and even a few +3's the entire time. You don't control access to them by not having them in the store, you control it by the fact the PCs don't have 50,000 gp at level 1 to buy them.
The shops have what they have, things you want, things you don't, things you can afford, and things you can't afford for 10 levels. If everyone wants to pool their money and get the Barbarian a +2 bastard sword at level 4, and everyone else uses MW items for 2 more levels, go for it, the group's WBL is on target, they chose to get the tank the big bad sword. It's a perfectly valid tactic, until you're the guy in MW leather getting hit by +1 magic swords.
Thanks for actually strengthening my argument.
You portray a shop as actually stocking up on weapons that are more powerful than the PCs have and even items they won't be available for a long time to come, and this knowledge was easily obtained because the PCs just walked in, inquired about the price, found out they couldn't afford it and left. Which in turn you have to ask yourself this question. If the shop has...
Again, do you want to be the person robbing a gun store?
Also you have some bad logic in that you assume the PC's are the only people in the world interested in buying said equipment. I'm assuming that people don't simply level up when the PCs do in your campaigns, which means that someone somewhere already exists that is probably higher level in your campaigns than the PCs are, and it makes sense that those people too might want magical gear, and not want to have to make it themselves, thereby having reason to want to purchase it too.
PC's don't exist in a vacuum and neither do campaign worlds or people wanting to sell magical gear.
I have had a time when a PC tracked down someone selling a particular piece of gear they wanted, found out they didn't have the asking price, failed to negotiate and then when they came back later found out the item had sold in the mean time, cause hey, stuff sells.
My two cents on Magic shops.
I dont mind and have some Magic items from sale. For example the village Witch can , if she likes you and has time can sell you a few healing potions., while the local temple might have a few scrolls for sale, if you are a faithful member, while a mage in town might have a few lanterns with a permanent light spell cast.
But as for higher and more powerful stuff not likely. Take a wand of fireball, not many people in town are going to want one, the local Lord or city council is not going to want to see them on the street, and they cost more then most people can afford.
Getting hold of a big item should be possible, but chances are it would be like buying an armored car today,, there only going to be a handfull of sellers in any country and you are going to have to pass a background check by who is ever running the country.
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If the shop has really powerful items and the kniwledge is easily obtainable then what's stopping really powerful enemies from stealing them?The same thing stopping you from walking into Best Buy and jacking that 52" flat screen.
The same thing stopping you from walking into Bank of America and taking all the cash.
That pesky no shirt, no shoes thing?
I know that always gets me when I go to jack a bank. :(
My two cents on Magic shops.
I dont mind and have some Magic items from sale. For example the village Witch can , if she likes you and has time can sell you a few healing potions., while the local temple might have a few scrolls for sale, if you are a faithful member, while a mage in town might have a few lanterns with a permanent light spell cast.
But as for higher and more powerful stuff not likely. Take a wand of fireball, not many people in town are going to want one, the local Lord or city council is not going to want to see them on the street, and they cost more then most people can afford.
Getting hold of a big item should be possible, but chances are it would be like buying an armored car today,, there only going to be a handfull of sellers in any country and you are going to have to pass a background check by who is ever running the country.
I addressed this idea of government control of magic stuff quite a ways back up this thread. If the GM wants to run their world that way, that's fine. It's not the default way. In fact I've never once been in a campaign where the government controlled access to magic items. There have been a few where a cartel or cabal did. My own world works that way.
If you want to run a campaign that way then it is likely that some magic items would be seen as more "dangerous" than others, and that wouldn't be based on cost. A wand of fireballs would be more likely to be a "controlled item" than, for example, a +6 headband of vast intelligence.
My two cents on Magic shops.
I dont mind and have some Magic items from sale. For example the village Witch can , if she likes you and has time can sell you a few healing potions., while the local temple might have a few scrolls for sale, if you are a faithful member, while a mage in town might have a few lanterns with a permanent light spell cast.
But as for higher and more powerful stuff not likely. Take a wand of fireball, not many people in town are going to want one, the local Lord or city council is not going to want to see them on the street, and they cost more then most people can afford.
Getting hold of a big item should be possible, but chances are it would be like buying an armored car today,, there only going to be a handfull of sellers in any country and you are going to have to pass a background check by who is ever running the country.
I think most of the reasonable people in the thread agree with this, and just disagree what is a 'big item'. For me, it's anything over 12K gold is going to require some rolls, some friends in high (or low) places, and things like that. But anything that you can expect to find on a level 1 to 8 character should be pretty widely available.
Then again, I tend to assume level 8 is the average NPC in the world, where other people think all NPCs should be level 1, and the king is level 3 at most. *shrug* Doesn't make sense to me, but whatever blows your TNT.
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Then again, I tend to assume level 8 is the average NPC in the world, where other people think all NPCs should be level 1, and the king is level 3 at most. *shrug* Doesn't make sense to me, but whatever blows your TNT.
Heh I had to get over this one after converting from 2nd Ed. Where'd all the 0 Lvl NPC's in town go - oh yeah now they are 1st-5th lvl Commoners, Experts, Aristocrats, etc. From a PC to NPC interaction perspective I like the new way much better. :)
Or what you end up with if you are in a smaller town, is the Joe behind the counter where you have dropped a few grand in cash over the previous few months notices that you now have cash to buy better stuff than he has. So what does Joe do, he tells you about his cousins in the big city that have a shop like his, except they have better stuff, or he offers to have it shipped here from their shop. Or they know a guy that wants to sell his +3 sword because he is retiring and wants to build his wife a castle.
It isn't that things appear as you level, so much as opportunities appear as merchants realize you have the cash to spend. While that merchant won't get all the cash from you, a commission from someone else is better than nothing, and will bring you back.
Think about this from the other side: You're a group of low level adventurers that are hired to guard the wagon shipping this item back for some other richer group. :)
You could even let the players "try it out" during battle or something (no one will ever know).
Adventure!
You need to look to history before the middle ages an--many a man took control of empire through trade Rome was rife with traders buying their way into power. People wed name and money all the time.See I never said free market and with good reason. The very concept of a "free market" is actually abhorent to capitalism.Yeah got to say people not understanding capitalism and how it's the most base form of economic principles out there causes me problems with suspension of disbelief in reality.
The idea that somehow people won't do exactly what people will do for a buck is ludicrous. Almost every 'evil' in the world is supported by a capitalistic system and will continue to be because that's the natural working of the world.
....you do realize the idea of capitalism and liberal theory is a more postmodern concept do you not?
The idea of free market economy and capitalism as you know it is predated by the idea that aristocrats and nobles having the natural right to rule and own land (which was the most important commodity) not the selling of goods. Class structure and laws protecting those of high birth outweighs bucks in this system.
Heh. It certainly seems odd to reference the middle ages as the go-to source for how things were without looking further back or at any other culture in the world.
Also, I think you quoted the wrong person. :)
You need to look to history before the middle ages an--many a man took control of empire through trade Rome was rife with traders buying their way into power. People wed name and money all the time.See I never said free market and with good reason. The very concept of a "free market" is actually abhorrent to capitalism.Yeah got to say people not understanding capitalism and how it's the most base form of economic principles out there causes me problems with suspension of disbelief in reality.
The idea that somehow people won't do exactly what people will do for a buck is ludicrous. Almost every 'evil' in the world is supported by a capitalistic system and will continue to be because that's the natural working of the world.
....you do realize the idea of capitalism and liberal theory is a more postmodern concept do you not?
The idea of free market economy and capitalism as you know it is predated by the idea that aristocrats and nobles having the natural right to rule and own land (which was the most important commodity) not the selling of goods. Class structure and laws protecting those of high birth outweighs bucks in this system.
Oh, you confuse a 'free market' with actual capitalism. Of course people buy into power -- anyone that tries to tell you there is a difference between economics and politics is either a fool or trying to sell you something.
A free market is one where everyone has an equal chance to get in and sell a product -- a 'captive' market (or monopoly) is one where you control the product that is sold. It is the natural tendency of capitalistic systems to try and create captive markets as often and as big as they can.
So while I fully agree with you (and it still happens today I might add) realize that doing so has nothing to do with a 'free market' and everything to do with proving my point that a free market is actually abhorrent to capitalism.
The only way a 'free market capitalist system' works is with a strong system forcing it to stay open and break up captive market strategies and dealings.
Good for you. I reserve the right to do the same to player hissy fit folk as well. I'll take your advice --humour bad on Paizo site. Except in specifically allowable forms or with appropriate emoticon buffering for your ilk.
Man--that's just a bit literal minded of you nehy? It was a joke. Based on a joke--spawned by a joke. I'm sorry you didn't get it.This is a text medium dude, if you want to have a one line joke, it needs to either be so popular in the culture that it can be seen a mile away, or you need to put some indicators of joking on it, like :)'s or </humor> or something.
Otherwise, people will assume that what you state is what you meant.
As to gold, it's just like anything else, it's a resource. If the adventurers were in it for the money, they'd retire about 5th to 8th level as a local lord or rich merchant. As a resource, it's only as good as you allow it to be. If you only allow them to spend it on things that aren't really helpful, then you're going to have to adjust difficulty of encounters to compensate. Now, that's a perfectly valid way of doing it, and I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is people posting 'you are having badwrongfun and you are dudi head', and with GMs who throw hissy fits and screw over the players if they don't do what the GM wants. I've had one GM like that, and I will never be that GM if I can help it, and am happy to call people **** GMs if they do it.
Yes, because people can read your mind and see your facial expressions over the internet. :\
He gave you solid advice: text based communication is horrible with sarcasm and jokes (especially when they are placed in the middle of something said seriously). It's akin to Poe's Law. This isn't just true here at Paizo, it's true on all text based communications. As one of the modorators said earlier: if you are not understood, it's not the reader's fault, it's your own.
This:
I didn't realize that people said 'magic shop' and immediately meant everything was on the table to be bought. I always thought it was a more generic term meaning, "the magic items available for sale in the town as is determined by the rules for settlements".
Yeah I can see why people would have issues with people thinking everything is always on the table right when you want it.
I always see 'the magic shop' as more like an actual store -- they have hours of business, a set location and only so much and specific types of merchandise, and you (the adventurer) have to live with that.
Agree, not immediately on the table, but eventually.
Saying a party of level 11 characters is having trouble finding a +3 sword is just silly (unless it’s a part of a plot). For crying out loud, they can teleport, raise dead, fly, plane shift and have a cup of coffee with some angels of even their God, why the h*ck shouldn’t they be able to find a simple +3 sword? Sure, not ‘immediately’ but within a day or two wouldn’t be a problem. More odd stuff like a +2 furious might have to get crafted, but that isn’t a big deal is it? Get a +2 weapon and add furious. Will take some time, but hey.
So the right gear at just the right time as you level suddenly becomes available at shops you go to?
I never said that, I didn’t even imply that.
...over since converting to Pathfinder a few years ago (from 2nd Edition)...
This is what I did, too - that is, converted to Pathfinder directly from 2nd ed. It's a stark change if you didn't have 3.0 or 3.5 as a buffer. But I'll tell you, I like it. I like this system so much more than 2nd ed (and that was my favorite edition). The math is simpler, the freedom of design is better, the rules are more consistent (I still feel there are areas that need improvement, but it's leaps and bounds better than 2nd ed); it's just all around better. However, it did take me a while to get used to it.
Ashiel, kmal2t, would you say that you find the guidelines in the core rulebook regarding purchasing magic items too permissive? If so, can you suggest changes you would make to bring them more in order with what you see as the default magic level?
Well in all honesty I see the default magic level as being the default magic level. It coincides with some of my best experiences with D&D which is namely where minor magical trinkets are available, while more impressive fare is exceptionally rare. The core rules and standards do this exceedingly well.
That doesn't mean that it's best for every type of campaign, but I do believe that the general rules should be followed for best results. It's very easy to follow the rules and adjust for campaigns. Low fantasy campaigns halve the values of stuff traded, while high fantasy doubles it. That's right there in the rules telling you it can be done and should work out. Extreme caution should be taken when outright removing such options however, and one must accept the responsibilities of what that means to the game.
Or do you feel that while the suggested values are fine, GMs in general tend to be even more permissive? Or a combination of the two?
I think the that the values are fine. The game can comfortably double the GP limits in cities (in high magic/fantasy campaigns) without rocking the boat. It says as much right there in the same chapter (that sets the upper end of item goodies to about 32,000 gp).
I personally stick to the standard game when discussing and playing. From a discussion point of view I think it is the most fair and understood, while from a gameplay perspective I don't want everything available for coin and I like that something like a +3 weapon is rare and hard to find unless you get lucky. Same with things like magic staffs and fully charged 4th level wands (which are also rare and difficult to find).
I apologize for the presumption; I am not trying to put words in either of your mouths, I just want to understand your positions.
Sorry to have no replied before the flood of other messages. As to how a "magic shop" functions in the game, it varies considerably. I think one of the things that gets people is they think of a literal shop. Like a corner bookstore. We're basically - in reality - talking about the trade and economy of the whole community. That includes everything from open market stalls to the porter's guild to the magician's college. Generally one might know where to go to get something of a particular sort or might be referred to someone else if they don't have it.
"Hm, a firebrand blade (+1 holy flaming longsword) is it? I'm sorry good sir but something like that is beyond the norms for even Figi's Wonders and I haven't seen anything like that for a while. You may want to check with the Linnorm Palace on the corner of South and Main. They sometimes have a few especially exotic things as the owner acquires things from far and wide."
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The problem is magic items have become math filler.
Zark: You stated that an 11th level party should have no problem finding a +3 sword. I would say a +3 sword is rare because of how powerful and costly it is. You should have a lot of trouble because there shouldn't be that many +3 swords out there.
Now when we look at it as simply a math filler then yes it should be easy.
You do realize that when you add "for example" after a few examples it doesn't have to stop there.
Fighter: Can donate to churches, purchase some retainers, buy some contacts, or go out and commission something to he made.
Rogue: Start up his own guild, buy contacts, commission something to be made, use his newly aquired contacts to find a certain type of item etc...
You claim to be such a pro at the game. All it takes is using your imagination, unless you are so wrapped up in the rules that you can't see what's beyond the book.
So...you can give all your money away. Well, I can't argue that. It's probably what I would do if I had the equivalent of millions of dollars and nothing to do with it. I love how you also say "commission something to be made" which is basically "buy magic items" from where I'm sitting. So even you can't find much to do with money without it. Everything else is just ways of disposing of money while pretending to do something.
What's funnier is that you claim that I'm not using my imagination. Yet, humorously, there is almost no variance or imagination in your examples. It all pretty much is "donate to church, buy stronghold/servants, get contacts, commission items". With commission items being code for "buy magic items". 'Cause y'know, that's what commissioning something is. Placing an order for something. A purchase.
Also, I wanted to talk about your argument that stuff magically becomes available based on level. That's not in the core rules and nobody's said anything like that. The core rules assume that trade is happening regardless of the PCs. They're not the center of the universe. Stuff doesn't stop and start with them each day. The GP limits in cities and towns represent stuff that's always there.
At 1st level there are +2 swords available to buy if you go to the largest cities. I just can't buy them. Heck, I probably won't be able to reasonably be afford one until around 9th level. But they are there. There's also +3 swords somewhere, but they're so rare that such things only show up randomly in a population of the correct size (IE - as randomly generated items).
I find this to be a nice balance. The world makes sense because things are being traded, people can learn the craft of forging magic into items, and there is an economy. You don't find high level items in backwoods places very often, and it's actually pretty difficult to buy anything beyond some low level potions or scrolls in most towns.
The problem is magic items have become math filler.
Zark: You stated that an 11th level party should have no problem finding a +3 sword. I would say a +3 sword is rare because of how powerful and costly it is. You should have a lot of trouble because there shouldn't be that many +3 swords out there.
Now when we look at it as simply a math filler then yes it should be easy.
This is already true by the standard.
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This is how the best GM I've even played with always did it.
We discuss the player concept by e-mail. I let him know what I am envisioning and things I would like, he discusses it with me and then 9 times out of 10 what we discuss gets worked into the larger plot somewhere down the line and I get the thing I wanted, through some quest or just avaiability.
The rest of the time, he comes up with something even cooler than what I thought of that goes along with the underlying concepts we discusses, and that appears in the course of play.
But you have to trust your GM for that to happen.
YMMV...
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The problem is magic items have become math filler.
Zark: You stated that an 11th level party should have no problem finding a +3 sword. I would say a +3 sword is rare because of how powerful and costly it is. You should have a lot of trouble because there shouldn't be that many +3 swords out there.
Now when we look at it as simply a math filler then yes it should be easy.
Shallow, what Zark is trying to explain is that as the PCs gain power what was once difficult becomes easier.
That includes locating and purchasing gear appropriate to their power and wealth.
This can manifest itself different ways. The easiest way is just simple gold. If the adventuring group is based in a large, rich city, they may have had "access to" powerful magic item shops from day one, but they can't afford them so it is as if those powerful items don't exist for them. But as they gain wealth, they can buy more and more powerful items.
Or if the group is based in a small town, they may have to travel. Travel is easier for a high level party than a low level party. It is not unreasonable for a PC to assume that if they are looking for rare and valuable items, they might have to travel to a bigger and richer city to find it. But now they can teleport, or fly, or hire a wagon train.
Eventually an epic level party should be able to pretty much go wherever they need to in order to find the best stuff money can buy. Just like a rich person in the real world can jump in his private jet and head to Paris to buy the latest fashions.
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A 11th level party also has more contacts and more resources for travel. If what they're looking for isn't available in one city, they can check another one. Or more.This is already true by the standard.The problem is magic items have become math filler.
Zark: You stated that an 11th level party should have no problem finding a +3 sword. I would say a +3 sword is rare because of how powerful and costly it is. You should have a lot of trouble because there shouldn't be that many +3 swords out there.
Now when we look at it as simply a math filler then yes it should be easy.
Absalom doesn't exist. Partial wand shops, sure, but not major cities.
I addressed this idea of government control of magic stuff quite a ways back up this thread. If the GM wants to run their world that way, that's fine. It's not the default way. In fact I've never once been in a campaign where the government controlled access to magic items. There have been a few where a cartel or cabal did. My own world works that way.
If you want to run a campaign that way then it is likely that some magic items would be seen as more "dangerous" than others, and that wouldn't be based on cost. A wand of fireballs would be more likely to be a "controlled item" than, for example, a +6 headband of vast intelligence.
Just as most Medieval and ancient societies had laws governing what weapons a serf could own, Most societies would at least keep an eye on magic items of mass destruction. But as far as a =6 int headband or wand of cure light wounds only the most oppressive would care about those.
If you don't want to "oversaturate the market" with magic items (and decrease the validity that there'd be Mag-o-Marts) I see two options: change the rules for creating items to make it harder or you can't do it until much higher levels and/or make the ratio of magic-users to others much lower.
There are more options.
1. Magic items can be recycled. I do this in my world. Magic items can be disenchanted to provide power to enchant new items. But it's a flawed process so you lose enchantment power every time you do it. The end result is that lots of lower level magic items are consumed to make higher level ones.
2. Certain monsters eat magic items to survive. They need to consume a certain amount of magic to survive. So they are constantly seeking out magic items which they consume and destroy.
3. Magic items are lost. This fits in well with the "no magic shop" model since they can be "found" by adventurers as they need them.
I could come up with more. You could rule that magic actually has a shelf life and after a certain period the magic fades. Only artifacts would have magic forever. Maybe that's what makes an artifact an artifact.
You can make up any number of plausible reasons for magic items to follow the magic creation rules but still be rare and valuable.
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I think we have to acknowledge the concerns of both side of the arguement and break them down.
On the "less" side, people are concerned that wide availabilty decreases value. It means less when something is given to you then when you earn it.
I largely agree with this.
One the "more" side, people want to be able to get access to things that allow them to define their character, and they feel that the GM won't allow them to do things they want to do.
I can see this being a problem with some GM's, but I also kind of feel like if you are only married to one idea and concept, you want a very specific type of game and you probably need a GM who is on the same page as you.
Then again, I tend to assume level 8 is the average NPC in the world, where other people think all NPCs should be level 1, and the king is level 3 at most. *shrug* Doesn't make sense to me, but whatever blows your TNT.Heh I had to get over this one after converting from 2nd Ed. Where'd all the 0 Lvl NPC's in town go - oh yeah now they are 1st-5th lvl Commoners, Experts, Aristocrats, etc. From a PC to NPC interaction perspective I like the new way much better. :)
Me too. Plus, I like the idea that the PCs don't start out as the biggest bads on the block, and have to work their way up, just like most protagonists do in stories, they don't start off big and bad, they have to get knocked around before they are heroes. Some people prefer a world where a 1st level PC is among the nastiest humanoids around, and then try to fit the rest of the world around that concept. Personally, it Boggles my Mind.
I really need to learn to ignore threads that go over a certain post count, because at this point it's obvious to me that y'all are arguing for the sake of argument itself, and not producing any new input into the topic.
Which is not to say there's a place for that sort of thing -- maybe you were all on the debate team in high school. Sure.
I'll just be over there in another thread.
I think we have to acknowledge the concerns of both side of the arguement and break them down.
On the "less" side, people are concerned that wide availabilty decreases value. It means less when something is given to you then when you earn it.
I largely agree with this.
One the "more" side, people want to be able to get access to things that allow them to define their character, and they feel that the GM won't allow them to do things they want to do.
I can see this being a problem with some GM's, but I also kind of feel like if you are only married to one idea and concept, you want a very specific type of game and you probably need a GM who is on the same page as you.
ciretose, I have not seen anyone on the pro magic shop side ever suggest in any form whatsoever that anything be "given to them". Everyone wants to "earn it."
However, I think that some of the objection that I keep seeing presented here is not so much about what happens in game as it is in how characters are being created with the expectation that certain magic items will be available to them at some point in the campaign whether the character "earns them" or not.
In my mind that's not even a magic shop issue. It's an issue of how the game is managed. If I want to play a certain concept character that requires a specific item, if the GM agrees to it that means that whether there is a magic shop or not, it is expected that the character will find that item when they "need" it.
I wish we could separate that issue from the magic shop issue. The reason they are conflated is because magic shops provide a quick and easy solution for GMs to provide access to that item at the appropriate time without resorting to obvious verisimilitude breaking GM fiat such as "you find [specific item X] in the troll hoard."
It is quite possible that a non magic shop GM could make those items easier to get for a PC than a magic shop GM would if the magic shop simply doesn't carry the item the PC wants.
The problem is magic items have become math filler.
Zark: You stated that an 11th level party should have no problem finding a +3 sword. I would say a +3 sword is rare because of how powerful and costly it is. You should have a lot of trouble because there shouldn't be that many +3 swords out there.
Now when we look at it as simply a math filler then yes it should be easy.
This
And ok...if we are to use the RAW on magic items then the rarity of magic items is really proportional to how common adventurers are (magic users) and what their life expectancy is.
are 1:1000 people magic users? 1:10,000 or more?
lets assume conservatively that its 1:10k and 1/2 of those people survive to make items and some people make items some don't so there's an average of 1.5 items made/magic user
In a population of 10 million there'd be 1000..of that there'd be 500 to make items so 750 items made in that given period. I'll even half that to 375 to account for items that are used up like scrolls, potions, etc. now extrapolate that over centuries of magic users and you have a s~@% ton of items floating around
If you don't want to "oversaturate the market" with magic items (and decrease the validity that there'd be Mag-o-Marts) I see two options: change the rules for creating items to make it harder or you can't do it until much higher levels and/or make the ratio of magic-users to others much lower.
I think they are far more common then 1 in 10k, I would say about 1 in 500 is a caster of some sort.
The Majority of these would be Adepts as most large villages and towns would have at least one., They are followed (in my world) by hedge witches and what I call town mages, both who are more likely to know spells to mend items and entertain the masses then spells like magic missile and fireball.One problem most role playing games have is they concentrate on spell to vaporize other living being,while a spell that enables one to remove wine stains from an expensive dress would be a real money maker for a town mage.
Item consumption would be pretty rare..and while some would be lost, the way adventurers excavate they'd likely be found.
I hadn't considered the magic shelf life thing...even better: When a person who has had a item/weapon for a long time dies and still has his weapon, the "spirit" of the weapon (i.e. the magic) leaves with him. Adds a mystical and personal element to the items
How rare item consumption is would be entirely up to the GM.
This is actually a new idea for me, but I am seriously considering having dragons be magic item consumers. That would explain why they seek out treasure hoards. Of course that would also mean that dragon hoards wouldn't have as many magic items in them....
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Absalom doesn't exist. Partial wand shops, sure, but not major cities.A 11th level party also has more contacts and more resources for travel. If what they're looking for isn't available in one city, they can check another one. Or more.This is already true by the standard.The problem is magic items have become math filler.
Zark: You stated that an 11th level party should have no problem finding a +3 sword. I would say a +3 sword is rare because of how powerful and costly it is. You should have a lot of trouble because there shouldn't be that many +3 swords out there.
Now when we look at it as simply a math filler then yes it should be easy.
Who said major cities don't exist? A metropolis is where you're likely to go to have ready access to things like +2 weapons because such things are above the norm for most communities. You can't reliably find anything beyond that, but there are some random magic items beyond the usual limits available in communities (in a major city like a metropolis there's 4d4 medium and 3d4 major magic items of a random sort floating around in the economy. You can't rely on these being here and they might not be want you want, but they are there.
As far as partially powered items go; Pawn shops and secondhand dealers are a natural part of any economy. It can be pretty difficult to find magic item worth huge, huge amounts of gold pieces, but if it's an item that has a lesser value because it's been mostly used up, you can find such things around all over the place. It works the same way with NPC treasures. The odds of you finding a fully charged luck blade for example are excessively slim (would you really even want to face down a foe who had 142,960 gp worth of treasure devoted to just one weapon?), while one absent charges is actually pretty likely (you could easily run across enemies with a 22,060 gp luck blade in the CR 13+ range).
It's accepted that such things are bought and sold readily. If you loot a wand of fireball (11,250 gp) from an evil wizard with only 13 charges left (2,925 gp) you can sell it when you get back to town for 1462.5 gp. The merchant doesn't simply eat the damn thing. Naturally it goes back into the economy, which explains why such things are easily available. If you can't create a wand without creating them fully charged then a caster is likely to create one, use it as needed, then pawn it off when he's done with it (recouping any money he used to craft it beyond what he used). And if you can create items with fewer than maximum charges (as is hinted at with items like luck blade), then it is also natural to assume that people would simply to have more prospective buyers.
are 1:1000 people magic users? 1:10,000 or more?
This could vary in your world and might affect whether it is high or low magic. 3.x D&D assumed however that the "common" casters such as adepts are not all that uncommon at all. Most communities will have an adept or two in them at least. An adept is all you need to create magic items. In fact, it's one of the only real things they are likely to do as both magicians and an NPC class (they're not well suited for combat or adventuring, could be described as hedge-wizards or mystics, and have a smattering of priest and mage spells).
The majority of wondrous items likely come from 3rd level adepts, and the majority of magical arms & armors come from the rarer 5th level adepts. These individuals are very capable of crafting up to around medium magic items without it becoming more trouble than its worth. Again, this is another example of why low to mid-level magic items are common enough to shift and trade around the economy while high level fare isn't due to a combination of cost and rarity.
An interesting exercise would be to watch the show Pawn Stars and replace everything you see in that show with adventuring treasure. How novel is it? How costly is it? Can the merchant be expected to move it in his or her economy (a +3 flaming greataxe is worth a ton but even if "Mickey's Potion Palace" in a small town could take it off your hands, he probably won't if he doesn't think he can move the thing, so you may need to go find a larger city).
I wouldn't go that far, but I also dislike the idea that the starting PCs are among the weakest people in their village. They should be able to do heroic things even from the start, on a small scale, but still heroic. If they can't take care of any problem the average grandmother couldn't handle, then what do they get to do?
Who says they are?
Let's look at a village, say 30 people? The inn keeper is probably a retired level 8 warrior, and the mayor might be a level 8 noble. The rest of the village is 1st to 3rd level, with a 5th level warrior as the sheriff. Most of them with NPC levels. They have NPC wealth/equipment, a lot of which is tied up in shops/inventory/farms/animals/etc.
If it comes to a flat out fight, the village can kill the average 5 PC 1st level party, but they are going to lose half the villagers doing it, because they are all armed with cheap or make shift weapons, and aren't wearing armor. The adventurer's have at least one spell caster (probably with burning hands to take out multiple people), and so on.
Yeah, they're the weakest in the town. :(
They are the local trouble shooters even at 1st level, or the local trouble makers, depending on alignment. They aren't evil (or at least if they are, everyone else is neutral or evil). The 3 or 4 guys in town who could take them out have no reason to, and the ones who can't don't antogonize them.
As they level up, they are going to find the small town is just a bit too small for them, with no challenges left, and they move on to bigger towns and challenges, with correspondingly bigger groups and bigger npcs. Eventually, they will be respected and known all over (or reviled and hunted). When they hit level 12 or so, they're among the movers and the shakers, and when they hit level 20, they're epic and are known all over the world.
What's wrong with that?
ciretose, I have not seen anyone on the pro magic shop side ever suggest in any form whatsoever that anything be "given to them". Everyone wants to "earn it."However, I think that some of the objection that I keep seeing presented here is not so much about what happens in game as it is in how characters are being created with the expectation that certain magic items will be available to them at some point in the campaign whether the character "earns them" or not.
In my mind that's not even a magic shop issue. It's an issue of how the game is managed. If I want to play a certain concept character that requires a specific item, if the GM agrees to it that means that whether there is a magic shop or not, it is expected that the character will find that item when they "need" it.
I wish we could separate that issue from the magic shop issue. The reason they are conflated is because magic shops provide a quick and easy solution for GMs to provide access to that item at the appropriate time without resorting to obvious verisimilitude breaking GM fiat such as "you find [specific item X] in the troll hoard."
Personally I have never in all my recollection required a magic item for a character concept. I've actually - as of just recently - been invited to a game with a fellow Paizo board member and we have talked at great length about my character and the game. Things like race, starting equipment, backstory, possible plot hooks, mingling into the campaign world, possible "oh my" moments in the story further in and so forth. Heck, he thought it was kinda funny that I was purchasing multiple spell pouches and keeping track of how many pages my cantrips were eating in my spellbook (10/100 pages in fact, plus another 6 pages eaten from my starting spells, and I'm probably going to grab some more spells before we begin play). We discussed if there was going to be time or opportunity to craft or trade items (it's a sandbox game so it'll be fine and we can do some traveling around).
Yet no once have I said "Hey, I really need to get a staff of power at some point. It's for my character concept." or "Hey, it'd be really cool of you Mr. GM if you could drop some +4 Intelligence items my way around X level". We've spent more time talking about what her mundane clothes and their subtle hints about her mysterious past than we have talking about magical items.
The idea of such a thing sounds alien to me. It just just doesn't work with my mindset. It's hugely immersion breaking for me. If I was playing a fighter in 3.x and wielding a spiked chain, I would actually be disappointed to keep seeing spiked chains of higher power keep showing up randomly in treasure hordes over say maces, axes, swords, etc. It's a freakin' exotic weapon that you have to use a feat just to wield without issue. Why are they falling from the sky just for me!? Oh yeah, because it's a game and I'm being given items from the powers that be so I don't fall behind since I can't reasonably be expected to purchase gear and our GM hates crafting.
A metropolis is anything with more than 25,000 people. Absalom has how many people? How about Katapesh?
Selective logical assumptions are selective.
I have no idea. I was pretty sure they were big cities, but I'd probably have to go grab my Golarion Campaign Setting book off the shelf and look to know if they are actually metropolises. Also Pathfinder =/= Golarion, just as D&D =/= Grayhawk.
Stupid reply is stupid.