They can overrun, and once someone is prone, seems like they could try and pin them with a hoof, but they don't have grabby parts. Without the feat, it would provoke and AoO, but is there a rule against horses grappling? If it makes a difference, in our game we are talking about a Paladin's mount, so he has INT 7.
Well, uh...I guess he could latch on with his mouth...
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Can horses grapple?
I love that this is an actual question!
is there a rule against horses grappling?
Grapple: "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."
This implies that non-humanoids can grapple. (And your horse wouldn't take the -4 penalty for not having two free hands!)
While the rules are written with the assumption of normalcy, (IE "you" are a bipedal humanoid with standard limbs and stuff) there are other creatures that grapple (snakes, frogs, etc.) so without anything specifically detailing what types of limbs (if any) you need, or what your physical makeup should be, I don't see any reason a horse couldn't grapple.
Also, it's funny, so that's a big point in favor of the grapplehorse.
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Only if the horse wears a luchador mask and goes by the name "EL CABALLO DIABLO"
Ah, a simple question without a simple answer. Thanks, Pathfinder. ;)
I'm with Grick on this one. It's wonky, but there's no reason why a horse couldn't grapple. The description would be awkward, but it can still be done... grabbing someone with its mouth, rearing on its hind legs and getting tangled with someone with its front legs, or even pinning someone to its body using its head and neck. Weird visuals, but they could all represent a horse "grappling" someone. Also because of the humanoid/hand rule that Grick mentioned, I would be tempted to give the horse a -4 penalty to his CMB roll. No, horses aren't humanoids, but it's no less awkward than a humaniod trying to grab someone with 1 hand.
On the other hand, I cannot think of a situation where this would ever come up, except if someone actually TRAINED a horse to "grapple". In pretty much all other situations, a horse would not attack someone by grappling them.
The mount in question has improved overrun, so he knocks them down and generally stops adjacent to take advantage of the AoO when they get up. Seems like he could stand on them and pin them, which would require a grapple roll.
Seems like he could stand on them and pin them, which would require a grapple roll.
Prone is not grappled. He would have to grapple them, then when he maintains the grapple he could choose to pin (or move or damage).
I agree that prone is not grappled, but if a big horse is standing next to someone who is prone, an obvious question is: can it grapple them?
I agree that prone is not grappled, but if a big horse is standing next to someone who is prone, an obvious question is: can it grapple them?
The only thing Prone does is apply a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, which would apply to CMD against a grapple. That's true regardless of who/what is attempting to grapple him.
As for whether a horse can grapple, thread summary so far is 5 people saying yes, 1 person saying no, and 2 people basically saying yes but maybe some kind of penalties or something. And even the "no" says that a horse could escape or reverse a grapple, that it just pretty much wouldn't elect to start a grapple on it's own because it's weird.
So signs point to "Yes" but ask your GM to make sure.
man if I click on that is it going to take me to a donkey show or something
I don't want this to get weird
I don't want this to get weird
TOO LATE
Is that what comes after the pin?
My character's horse won't go there. She's a mare named Buttercup.
Another vote for yes a horse can grapple, but is unlikely to do so under normal circumstances.
Well, there's always this horse in Girl Genius.
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Yes, horses can grapple.
1. Pathfinder rules permit grappling, with no exception for horses.
2. Horses grapple.
In the real world, when horses fight each other, they can wrap their front legs around an opponent and push sideways or at other angles to knock the other horse to the ground. They lever their body weight against each other, vie for higher position, and pin each other to the ground. They use different moves than humans, of course, but it's still grappling.
There was a PFS question a while back about using Anthropomorphic Animal on a camel animal companion and having him grapple. I've never seen the argument come up in regards to the base animal, but I'd still go with yes.
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All horsing around aside, I'd say the video I linked does a pretty good job of showing how an untrained equine can and will grapple someone. The thing isn't just biting the guy in the video. It actually takes hold of his arm, pulls him to the ground and then proceeds to deal damage pretty much the same way you might grapple, pin and attack someone in Pathfinder. If it was a Pathfinder combat, I think it'd look something like this:
Round 1 (Fight!) - Horse rolls CMB to Grapple man, succeeds
Round 2 - Horse rolls CMB again to Pin, succeeds
Round 3 - Horse rolls attack using Natural weapon while maintaining Grapple, succeeds
Round 4 - Horse releases Grapple as a free action, takes a move action away from the man, then makes Perception check to find his next victim
Horse knocked dude prone! Too bad the horse didn't have the trample feat.
Fans of El Caballo Diablo may recall that before going to Mexico to claim the Heavyweight Championship, he spent his formative years in India's Interspecies Pehlwani League.
I don't know. That looks more like evidence that horses should have a bite in addition to their two hoof attacks than grappling.
More seriously, this is one of those cases where, RAW, you can totally have a horse grapple someone, but if I'm GMing and someone asks me that, my most likely reaction is to just give a blank stare and hope they revise that to something less ridiculous.
I dunno, Googleshng, yes he bit the dude, but he bit him and then knocked him prone. Is knocking someone prone usually part of a bite attack? If horses don't have grapple, they've got trip.
Well, the rules do not explicitly say a horse can't grapple, so it can.
On a sidenote, the rules do not explicitly say a horse can't play piano either.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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A much more important question:
Can my characters mount (presumably a horse) bring him a beer?
How many Handle Animal checks would it take? I assume you can't teach "fetch me a beer" as a trick, but if you could, how long would it take to train them?
Does it require a second check if they have to pay for the beer?
Do they have to make a Diplomacy check of some sort to get service?
Is there a circumstance bonus on that check if the server is female (because ladies love horses right)?
How much been would he spill bringing it back to me?
I've seen dogs that were trained to bring you a beer.
@ Gustavo: Well, a paladin's mount has INT 7, so it can take ranks in anything, including perform.
Yes, horses can grapple.
1. Pathfinder rules permit grappling, with no exception for horses.
2. Horses grapple.
funny part about this, is that there aren't rule exceptions for Virus either. So Virus can grapple too. Yep, they get a huge negative modifier for size (and a -4 for not having free hands, if they are humanoid virus), but with a +2 from Aid Another, a few hundred virus can take down and grapple the tarrasque.
I've seen dogs that were trained to bring you a beer.
@ Gustavo: Well, a paladin's mount has INT 7, so it can take ranks in anything, including perform.
Perform isn't trained only, so you don't really need a paladin's mount. Any horse can play the piano.
Actually, any Gelatinous Cube can play the piano, because no rule explicitly say it can't.
A horse could play the piano in real life too. It just wouldn't be very good.I've seen dogs that were trained to bring you a beer.
@ Gustavo: Well, a paladin's mount has INT 7, so it can take ranks in anything, including perform.
Perform isn't trained only, so you don't really need a paladin's mount. Any horse can play the piano.
Actually, any Gelatinous Cube can play the piano, because no rule explicitly say it can't.
Let's say that is true (which is not, a horse can hit a piano and make it sound, but can't play it, because it doesn't have fingers)
What about the Gelatinous Cube? The rule doesn't explicitly exclude it, so the Gelatinous Cube can play the piano. Mmmm. wait, that's not a real life animal. Let's take another example. A sea sponge. Can a sea sponge play the piano? What about grapple? Can a sea sponge grapple you?
That's what you get when you replace common sense by written rules that don't have all bases covered, by definition.
I mean... sleeping in medium armor make you fatigued. So the best solution, is not sleeping, ever. Sleep deprivation does not make you fatigued in the rules.
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What about the Gelatinous Cube? The rule doesn't explicitly exclude it, so the Gelatinous Cube can play the piano. Mmmm. wait, that's not a real life animal. Let's take another example. A sea sponge. Can a sea sponge play the piano? What about grapple? Can a sea sponge grapple you?I would say if you can picture and describe the creature grappling and it makes sense in the encounter then its ok. If you can't or it sounds really unnatural then don't.
I like some of the descriptions given here of how a horse could grapple. Its easy to picture an intelligent paladin's mount grabbing a halfling by the scruff with its teeth and dragging it about as a grapple action, or pinning it beneath a hoof. It would need something a horse-mouth could grab onto though like loose clothing for it to work.
Well, maybe it's just me. But I find absurd that hippopotamus are better at grappling than constrictor snakes, just because the game adds str to grapple. Woolly Rhinoceros, or Bisons, get better grapple modifiers than constrictor snakes, crocodriles or giant crabs, and a Whale has a better grapple modifier than a giant octopus, and a great white whale better than a Kraken.
As it is, if you want to grapple someone, you shouldn't train a boa constrictor, which only has +9. You should train bisons, which have +12. Not only that, but the Boa has +5 if it want to trip you. While the Bison can Disarm your opponent just as easy as it can trip, grapple, or reposition him.
Gustavo, keep in mind that creatures with grab get a +4 on grapple checks. This helps things like the constrictor snake. For its level, the constrictor snake has a much better CMB than a hippo. The hippo only wins because it has 4 extra hit die.
The snake already has the +4 count. It has +5, +9 to grapple. The Auroch has the same CR, the same HD, and +9 to grapple. But also +9 to trip, or disarm.
The hippo is better mainly because size and strength. Just like the Bison, for example. Or the Whale, compared to a giant octopus.
So, going back to the OP question: there's nothing in the rules that forbid a horse to grapple. Just like there is nothing in the rules that forbid a whale to play the piano, or a sea sponge to play a citar. However, following the game pure as RAW, without any use of common sense, will lead to fighters not sleeping at all, ever, to avoid donning and undonning the armor, because sleeping in armor means Fatigued condition, and not sleeping at all does not have any rule.
That said, whatever float your boat is good enough for me. If you find it fun, go ahead with jujitsu horses and wrestling bisons. Or squids that play the flute