( Actual questions last paragraph )
So I have a player in my RotR campaign that got grappled by a revenent. He failed his CMB check to escape the grapple. Wizard cast grease on him to get +10 to his CMB check and failed again. Revenent continued to deal damage to the point where he asked the wizard to cast aquitic orb and hurl them both out the window 300 ft to the crashing waves below. Both went hurling out the window and he took the 20d6 falling along with her.
Now that it is all said and done with he has sent me numerous emails complaining that he did his math wrong and wasn't denied his Dex bonus counted the CMB wrong ect ect. He is being a pain in the butt and I would normally make a more than fair call if he wasn't such a whiner and calling me unfair. So now he's claiming that he gets another 3 rounds to break the grapple on the way down 300ft to activate his wings and even out.
Any other member would have accepted an epic hero dieing in an epic way and I wouldn't have to make this decision because they would just reroll.
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1:I assume falling 300 ft. would take about 5 seconds (less than a round) is it true he would get a turn every 60ft like he says?
2:Does grease apply +10 to escape artist check only or CMB to escape grapple as well?
3:Would aquatic orb wash away the grease?
4:If he said he failed but later recalled saying he would have just barely made it, would you recall it?
5: Being grappled he loses -4 to dex does that give him -2 to escape grapple?
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I guess it boils down to who is responsible for checking the player's math?
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1) yes, it's about 4.5 seconds, so less than a round.
2) it applies to both.
3) GM call. I'd let it.
4) only if it had just happened (say within the last combat round, and before his or the enemy's next turn). I'm nice like that. There's no rule saying you have to, or how far back you as GM can retcon things.
5) it applies to anything that his Dex bonus factors into, so not his CMB (though there's a feat somewhere that let's you), but it does make his CMD worse.
I think it all comes down to your call. and what type of DM you are and what type of Player he is. you don't want to be a jerk but you want to look at the whole experiences for every player involved. next time I suspect he will check his math better....
at the end of the day being a DM means making those hard decisions. you cant make every body happy but your word is the final say so he needs to abide by it or find another group.
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1:I assume falling 300 ft. would take about 5 seconds (less than a round) is it true he would get a turn every 60ft like he says?2:Does grease apply +10 to escape artist check only or CMB to escape grapple as well?
3:Would aquatic orb wash away the grease?
4:If he said he failed but later recalled saying he would have just barely made it, would you recall it?
5: Being grappled he loses -4 to dex does that give him -2 to escape grapple?
1 - I can't see anything saying he would get a turn every 60 feet. That's feather fall falling speed and I'm not seeing anything about a feather fall effect. Your 5 second estimate is pretty much right. I'd call that close enough to a round to give him the full round, but that's about as charitable as I would be.
2 - Grease specifically says both.
3 - Grease doesn't say anything about being washable, so I'd say no.
4 - Only if the mistake is caught right away, not via emails later.
5 - No, the grapple condition specifically states that the -4 to Dex does not affect checks made to escape a grapple.
Some of these questions are answered directly via the rules (#2, #3, #5). You should have the confidence to stand behind those yourself without our input. But with #1, I think you're right and he's not. And with #4, you have my advice above. It isn't unfair to get a situation wrong if you're using the info you have in good faith. If he screwed up his information to you and didn't catch it, too bad. I'd suggest sticking to your guns.
Also, consider any damage reductions that might occur for falling into the crashing waves. If deep enough, his character may take 2d6 less damage and convert 2d6 into 2d3 non-lethal damage. Some characters might survive that - assuming he wasn't too wounded by the revenant, that is.
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Hey there,
1: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3843/how-far-does-one-travel-when-fa lling-for-one-round
In short, he would not have time to act during the fall given that it is only 300 ft.
2: Yes-- It is in the rules. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm
3: Nowhere in the rules does it say that the orb removes grease. I would rule that there is no affect between the spells.
4: I would not recall the ruling. I don't recall my mistakes as DM when doing so would be in my favor. That said, if it would not be too disruptive to the game, and depending on context, I might be swayed.
5: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled
1 -- IF he has feather fall up he would only fall 60 foot a round and therefore could take actions each round while falling... but under normal circumstances no. It could be he's confused as to how feather falling works and how falling normally works.
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I might (emphasis on might) allow another save as he is falling out the window.
And if he had brought it up on the night, I also might have let him try to activate his wings to slow his fall.
But most likely I would just say to him "Dude, you told the Wizard to shoot you out of a window overlooking a cliff while grappled by an undead monster and you are asking me why you died?"
Worst. Plan. Ever.
5 - No, the grapple condition specifically states that the -4 to Dex does not affect checks made to escape a grapple.No, it says it doesn't affect combat maneuver checks to escape a grapple. It does affect Escape Artist checks (and any other Dex-based skills).
Grappled: "A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity."
You have a -4 penalty to dex. That does everything a dex penalty normally does.
You also have a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
So if you make a CMB check to reverse/escape the grapple, the -2 attack/CM penalty doesn't apply. But if you make an escape artist check to escape the grapple, the -4 dex penalty still applies.
1:I assume falling 300 ft. would take about 5 seconds (less than a round) is it true he would get a turn every 60ft like he says?
Definitely not. If, at the time, he had asked for one action on the way down, it would have been reasonable for you to grant it. But, he did not ask for an action. He asked for a noble, self sacrificing, death.
2:Does grease apply +10 to escape artist check only or CMB to escape grapple as well?
Yes, the +10 from Grease applies to escape artists checks. It's explicitly written into the spell.
3:Would aquatic orb wash away the grease?
No, definitely not. The spell has a duration of minutes, not instantaneous. It does not create a volume of grease which stays until washed away. It magically coats something with grease for a defined period of time, after which the grease magically disappears. During the duration it could be dispelled with magic, or presumably a GM could rule that specific actions could defeat the spell. I'd say that scrubbing a greased area with soap would work, but certainly not splashing it with water.
4:If he said he failed but later recalled saying he would have just barely made it, would you recall it?
Do you remember what he rolled on the die? Does another player remember seeing what he rolled? Did he, when he failed his last roll, call out something like, "I can't believe I missed it by two!" If the only thing you have to go on is his memory, and he's the one who had all of his numbers mixed up during the game, then no! That's not sufficient.
5: Being grappled he loses -4 to dex does that give him -2 to escape grapple?
It gives him -2 on his escape artist check, yes.
PC Arguing with me (DM) How do i handle this?
Ask the other players if they intend to recover his body and raise him from the dead. If they don't intend to, tell him to start working on ideas for a new character.
I'd say it depends on where you called it quits?
If the battle was over and they just disappeared into the inky blackness of night... Then why not!
it's almost trope for the hero to be 'presumed dead' then find out he saved himself at the last minute...
If the party has already recovered his body, looted it, gave it a viking funeral and moved back to town... Then no. It's too late, and too far to retcon.
What was he hoping to accomplish with the "plan" I use the word loosely how did he not see it leading to his death?
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What was he hoping to accomplish with the "plan" I use the word loosely how did he not see it leading to his death?
I'm guessing his plan was to escape the grapple while falling and after the aquatic orb dissapeared at 150 ft. activate his eidolon wings (he's a synthesist summoner) and fly back up.
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What was he hoping to accomplish with the "plan" I use the word loosely how did he not see it leading to his death?I'm guessing his plan was to escape the grapple while falling and after the aquatic orb dissapeared at 150 ft. activate his eidolon wings (he's a synthesist summoner) and fly back up.
That was a really dumb plan. If I had that plan, and it failed, I would roll a new character as quickly as possible in the hopes everyone would forget what a dumb thing I did.
Coulda woulda shoulda isn't retcon worthy. Unless it will seriously harm your campaign to let things lie, let it stand.
While you posted this on the rules forum, I'm going to answer it with some advice.
While this player might be annoying you with his bugging, keep in mind that he didn't (as far as you told us), throw a fit or argue with you insessently at game. If you take the "You should have brought it up before the game was over" approach, you're encouraging to disrupt your game at a later date.
When I look at this, I see a greased character, in a grapple, being thrown out the window and falling a great distance into water. This character has access to something that would give him wings.
I think it would be completely reasonable for you to rule that revanent wasn't able to maintain his hold on the slipperly little bugger while falling at terminal velocity, and the PC has a change to use his wings to break some of his fall. He still hit the water extremely hard, probably passed out, but awakening on a beach in a couple hours is not beyond suspension of disbeleif. It certainly would be easier on you than justifying why a new character shows up all of a sudden next session.
If you do this, be sure to explain to the player that it was not due to his rules arguements, which ended up being unfounded. Explain that it is because you think it is reasonable and it helps the game for him to narrowly avoid death this time. Maybe offer other characters a similar get out of jail free card in the future, if it's reasonable.
All fair and well, except the get out of jail free card was eatin up when he complained when I said an Aasimar synthesist summoner might overshadow everyone and let him do it anyway.
Also would 150ft be enough time to turn 45 degrees and how much less damage would that really be?
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Also, an Aqueous orb would make both the PC and the undead "entangled" which would add an additional -4 to dex checks and a -2 to attack rolls (which includes CMB rolls). Since these are different than the grappled minuses, they would apply when trying to get out of grapple while entangled.
(Ugly combo for escaping out of).
Also, since they are grappled by an undead and entangled in a 10' diameter sphere of water, their wings might not have helped much for slowing them down.
That was a really dumb plan. If I had that plan, and it failed, I would roll a new character as quickly as possible in the hopes everyone would forget what a dumb thing I did.What was he hoping to accomplish with the "plan" I use the word loosely how did he not see it leading to his death?I'm guessing his plan was to escape the grapple while falling and after the aquatic orb dissapeared at 150 ft. activate his eidolon wings (he's a synthesist summoner) and fly back up.
+1
I would have ruled that an aqeous orb would have absorbed the falling damage.
And i dont think its right to be to critical of the player. In the stress of gammin, I have mede the non-optimal choice.
Was there a better plan available?
Also, an Aqueous orb would make both the PC and the undead "entangled" which would add an additional -4 to dex checks and a -2 to attack rolls (which includes CMB rolls). Since these are different than the grappled minuses, they would apply when trying to get out of grapple while entangled.
(Ugly combo for escaping out of).
Also, since they are grappled by an undead and entangled in a 10' diameter sphere of water, their wings might not have helped much for slowing them down.
Excellent I forgot about the entangled condition. I knew I was missing something. So since he said he did his math wrong and would have hit the CMD of 28 right on the money, I forgot to calculate the entangle. So MY math was wrong too.
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If I were GM, the e-mail would go something like this.
Dude...you had the wizard throw you out of a window overlooking a 300 foot cliff while you were grappled. That was a choice you made, and a risk you decided to take. I didn't tell you to do it. In fact, you had to get other players to participate in the plan.
It isn't unfair. It is the outcome of choices. I hope you will roll a new character and keep playing, but I shouldn't have to explain to you why your character died when you asked to be thrown out of a 300 ft window while grappled.
If you are arguing about this, I can't imagine a scenario where you would think it would be "fair" for your character to die. I'm sorry you are upset, but it is over and the game is going forward at this point.
If you want to make a new character, we can talk about ways to intigrate them into the story.
If I were GM, the e-mail would go something like this.
Dude...you had the wizard throw you out of a window overlooking a 300 foot cliff while you were grappled. That was a choice you made, and a risk you decided to take. I didn't tell you to do it. In fact, you had to get other players to participate in the plan.
It isn't unfair. It is the outcome of choices. I hope you will roll a new character and keep playing, but I shouldn't have to explain to you why your character died when you asked to be thrown out of a 300 ft window.
If you are arguing about this, I can't imagine a scenario where you would think it would be "fair" for your character to die. I'm sorry you are upset, but it is over and the game is going forward at this point.
If you want to make a new character, we can talk about ways to intigrate them into the story.
That is almost exactly what I wrote lol!
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I would have ruled that an aqeous orb would have absorbed the falling damage.
And i dont think its right to be to critical of the player. In the stress of gammin, I have mede the non-optimal choice.
Was there a better plan available?
Not telling the wizard to throw him out of the window overlooking a cliff is a better plan.
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"Planning" would be a better plan.
He is being a pain in the butt and I would normally make a more than fair call if he wasn't such a whiner and calling me unfair.
The rest has been sufficiently answered but this should have no bearing on your ruling. Either you are fair as a GM or you are not. (I get it though, I'm tempted to treat whiny players a bit more callously as well).
It takes less than 10 ft for people to turn 45 degrees. Note that people are capable of doing standing front/back flips on level ground. As for reduced damage, none the game doesn't really support that functionality.In reality it reduces your...
After falling for approximately 60', hitting the surface of water is about the same as hitting the surface of concrete (sorry, no source to cite here). Approaching the water from a different angle, after that length of a fall, shouldn't make much difference.
So now he's claiming that he gets another 3 rounds to break the grapple on the way down 300ft to activate his wings and even out.
Presuming your campaign is set on a planet with gravity similar to earth's, he will accelerate at 32 ft per second per second until he reaches terminal velocity. In exact truth, his acceleration will slow as it is counterbalanced by drag, but to do the exact math we will need to know the drag coefficient of him+orb+revenent. To take a simple approximation, we can just use the terminal velocity of a sky diver (177 ft/sec) and presume dragless acceleration to that limit.
(second) - (fps) - (total ft fallen)
1 - 32 - 32
2 - 64 - 96
3 - 96 - 192
4 - 128 - 320
So he never even reaches terminal velocity before he hits the ground, and he hits the ground about four seconds after he falls out the window. He gets four seconds worth of "action," which in my game would be "about a round." I'd give him one CMB check on his way down to the ground, as a standard action, and I'd probably let him take a move action to 'ready his wings' if they were a permanent fixture. Or a swift action to cast feather fall, which would be the cool thing to do.
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more I read the more antagonism i am seeing.
I didnt have the patience to read all the one liner/two liner posts.
as to the above, the reason why people think water is like concrete is too much road runner reruns.
It's not the same. It has to do with the angle of entry. Hydraulic force, not water suddenly becomes a solid.
If they were to flatbody in, yea they are going to take damage.
From what I understand the character is an assimar and has wings?
In this case, I would allow the character (after the fact) two rolls, one last chance to break free, and a modified fly check.
if he breaks free, the fly check determines if he can level out.
IF he doesnt break free he can use the fly check to try and ram the revenant into the side of the tower they are falling out of, if this does enough damage to kill it, or even possibly damage it bad enough to break the grapple, then I would allow a reflex save for the PC to try and enter the water in the least harmful way, success means 1/4 damage.
IF he survives he can come back from what the other PCs THOUGHT was a certain death fall.
simple.
If not, hey, I tried man.
just because he is grappled doesnt mean the creature controls his wings too, ever grab a chicken? Yea I got it by the legs, its going no where, but these wings are out of control.
it's safe to assume with the grease spell, although he couldnt get out of the grapple, his wings made it out... easy DM ruling.
Give him a few more roles, he MIGHT make them.
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I would have ruled that an aqeous orb would have absorbed the falling damage.
And i dont think its right to be to critical of the player. In the stress of gammin, I have mede the non-optimal choice.
Was there a better plan available?
If you want to be nice and still leave long term effects of his terrible decision you could always get him raised but say there were "complications" and strip his character of something that he would hate but wouldn't be game changing, like maybe those precious wings.
a reincarnation handles the wings problem.
however, why are they such a big deal?
OK, I will answer the questions first, then outline what I would do.
1:I assume falling 300 ft. would take about 5 seconds (less than a round) is it true he would get a turn every 60ft like he says?
You will fall about 500 feet in the first round, and approximately 1000 feet each round afterwards at terminal velocity.
2:Does grease apply +10 to escape artist check only or CMB to escape grapple as well?
Both.
3:Would aquatic orb wash away the grease?
No. But it would prevent him from using his wings to fly away even if he DID escape the grapple.
4:If he said he failed but later recalled saying he would have just barely made it, would you recall it?
Yeah, right. In fact it has been pointed out that the entangled condition of aqueous orb would reduce his chances further, so it actually doesn't matter.
5: Being grappled he loses -4 to dex does that give him -2 to escape grapple?
It gives him -2 on his CMD. Unless he is using Agile Maneuvers, he'll not suffer a penalty to escape using CMB. He will suffer a -2 to Escape Artist.
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OK. Now what I would rule it this:
"Dumbest plan ever. BUT, you may have survived, and here's why: First off, once you were entangled, you had a -2 penalty we forgot about which means even if you just able to make an escape check, it wouldn't have worked. Falling distance is five hundred feet per round in the first round, so you hit the water in one round, and you can't use your wings trapped in the aqueous orb. However, it has one beneficial effect: the damage from impacting water from a great fall is caused by the surface tension of the water when you hit it. If something breaks that tension before you hit it, your deceleration will not be damaging. Lucky you, the edge of the orb does just that, and you are plunged deep underwater but are undamaged. The revenant is shaken loose form you and vanishes in the murky, swirling water. Swim check, please! If you make it you make the surface this round."
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@Master_Trip
I made the decision quite a while ago that if a player (or GM) makes a mistake in calculating bonuses, they forgot they had an ability, or don't realize how an ability works, they would have to accept the consequences of their mistakes. If an explanation is needed as to why something didn't work, we make up a reason and move on. I want the game to always be moving forward.
The only time I allow players to 'go back' is if they discover their error before the end of the next persons/monsters turn and the change does not affect any other players/monsters.
It may sound a bit harsh, but as long as everyone understand the expectation, it's not that bad. My players also understand that if they try to game the system by accidentally adding bonuses because 'they made a mistake', they risk the chance of getting kicked for cheating. Fortunately, most people are pretty honest and decent folk (though there have been a few exceptions).
You might ask why I take this stance. I have found that redoing fights/scenes/etc takes too much of the fun away from the game. It is usually one player who has made the mistake, but the other five or six players have to suffer for the extra time to 'correct it'. Also, most encounters I do come with some sort of mystery or unexpected twist and when you have to 'go back', it means the mystery/twist is diminished since the cat is out of the bag.
When I played in high school, we had a campaign that was drawing to a close with the classic good army vs evil army. We all had powerful characters with tons of abilities and items and, of course, we were going up against evil NPCs with the same type of stuff. The GM did a great job of setting the scene for our part of the fight...and three hours later, one of the PCs realized they screwed up some spell or something that changed to course of the fight, so we had to start over...and then two hours later, something similar happened with another player, so we started over again with the condition from the GM that we were not starting over again. We did win, but having to redo the battle twice took all the fun out of it. Most of the plot twists that the GM had planned were revealed in the first run through, so it felt more like number crunching than the awesome, epic battle we all were hoping for.
My advice to you is that whatever you decide to do with this situation, come up with a set of guidelines for how you want to handle it in the future and let your players know what they are. When situations like this arise, stick with those guidelines (even if they whine about them). Don't be a wishy-washy GM that doesn't stick to his guidelines when his players get whiney. Once they realize that you are fair, but firm, you will have a better game for it.
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If you want to be nice and still leave long term effects of his terrible decision you could always get him raised but say there were "complications" and strip his character of something that he would hate but wouldn't be game changing, like maybe those precious wings.a reincarnation handles the wings problem.
however, why are they such a big deal?
I was just throwing out an option off of the top of my head. By no means was that a "this is what I would do" or "this is what you should do" statement. The wings were the first thing that came to my head as I was typing. Most people that have a character with wings would really hate to lose them somehow but it wouldn't break their character mechanically, which is why I mentioned them.
no what i mean is, i didnt read every post... so what the issue with this player why is there s goal to take something away from him or penalize him (besides being whiny about the grapple situation?)
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no what i mean is, i didnt read every post... so what the issue with this player why is there s goal to take something away from him or penalize him (besides being whiny about the grapple situation?)
Ah, OK. A lot of people were saying that it was a terrible decision made on his part to begin with, so the death is the consequence of said decision. Some agreed with retcon, some didn't because it was his own fault because he wanted the Wizard to throw them out and he obliged. I was trying to appease (sort of) both sides of the argument and let him live at a cost.
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I don't generally retcon anything that happened more than about 1 round ago.
This is the kind of situation where I like having Hero Points. Player does something dumb and falls out of a window? Spend 2 Hero Points and your companions find you soaking wet on the shore at the bottom of the cliff (the Revenant having taken the brunt of the damage) at 1-ConMod HP. Her Points are nice at times like this because they save you from your own buffoonery, but only once/level (since staving off death costs 2 Hero Points and you can only have 3 at any given time).
-Skeld
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I would normally make a more than fair call if he wasn't such a whiner and calling me unfair.
If the fact that he's a whiner is the only reason you're considering not doing what you'd normally do by making a more than fair call then do yourself a favor and ignore the fact that he's a whiner and do what you'd normally do and make a more than fair call.
Otherwise you're singling him out, which is going to make him into a whiner. :P
The best gauge of whether I'd ref in favor of you or him would be an unbiased perspective of how badly his asimar synth summoner has been playing up to this point. If he's been laying waste and hogging spotlight and you just wanna kill him off then thats one thing.
If he's been doing a good job of keeping himself from going all powercrazy then i'd give him some props for keeping synthesis summoner from getting out of control which is, for certain players, a feat in itself.