did paizo just shift what was cool about the spike chain in 3.5D&D to the Meteor Hammer. I could have sworn the in 3.5 that the Spike chain could be switched between a reach weapon or a double weapon, or I'm I wrong. If they did nerf it, why?
I only ask because I was thinking of making a Magus/ Rogue that used one as a weapon.
Master of Chains prestige class from 3.0 could switch the chain between reach and double.
I believe Exotic Weaponmaster prestige from 3.5 could flurry of blows with it, but it still didn't make it a double weapon.
did paizo just shift what was cool about the spike chain in 3.5D&D to the Meteor Hammer. I could have sworn the in 3.5 that the Spike chain could be switched between a reach weapon or a double weapon, or I'm I wrong. If they did nerf it, why?
I only ask because I was thinking of making a Magus/ Rogue that used one as a weapon.
Well after looking at the thread cheapy linked I can see it's a moot point to ask why they did it & why they then went on to make weapons themselves that get to do really good stuff or can be made to be just as broken as they thought the Spike chain was with just a few feats.
So I'll just have to see if my GM will let me make my character a Magus/ Ninja that uses Kusarigama.
Yea. That and the Synthesist (oh hello again Druidzilla) were some...interesting choices. But there is a very important thing to note about the kusarigama: it's a double weapon. You could enchant both the reach portion and the non-reach portion for the price of one weapon in 3.5 (since they were the same portion of the weapon), but you can't do that in PF.
And word of warning, a kusarigama is a two-handed weapon, which means no spell combat as a magus.
@ cheapy: True for a while but my GM already cleared the use of some 3rd party material and I found this
Enruned Great Weapon (Su)
Benefit: The magus may expend two points from his arcane pool to scribe a rune of power on a 2-handed weapon with which the magus is proficient. While the rune is in place, when the magus is holding that weapon with two hands, he can use one of the two hands holding the weapon to complete somatic components of magus spells he casts, and it is considered to have one hand free for purposes of spell combat. The rune lasts 10 minutes per level.
After I take that things should be fine.
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Toned down is one thing but they flat made it strictly worse then many weapons that don't need EWP. That is just bad design imo.
I know a lot of people had issue with this weapon but at the same time it is still only melee. And frankly it was the only weapon forth the feat in 3.5 (Now there are a couple weapons worth it at least.)
While toning some things down from 3.5 was very good it does bother me a bit that this was made useless and yet a good deal of far more powerful things got left alone (a good number of metamagics I am looking at you.)
It always bothered me that the obviously superior weapon never got it's due in real life. Er, wait, who used the spiked chain in real combat again?
Sarcasm aside, I like that most of the best weapons in Pathfinder were actually excellent weapons in the real world.
Shortswords - Roman legions
Longsword & Morningstar - Much of Europe in the middle ages
Scimitar - The premier one-handed sword of it's day, along with the sabre, which is nearly the same thing.
Lance - For the obvious application, which Pathfinder interprets well.
Lucern Hammer, Glaive, and other polearms - top notch in their day in many regions of the world
I like that weird and exotic weapons see use in the game. They're cool, and sometimes a cool character trait is their unique weapon. But even that is better when your signature weapon doesn't appear everywhere you look.
Loved it is a bit strong. I always found it seemed a bit silly but it was the only exotic weapon worth the feat in a system that was more feat starved then we play now.
What does bother me though is a weapon that has a feat tax being worse then a martial weapon (heavy flail) they should have ether thrown it out of did something to give it some value (improved threat range perhaps.)
Though "extreme power" I have to say is WAY overstated. Its just a mundane weapon. It does not bend reality and for a feat cost its power did not even come close to that of pretty much any of the main metamagics.
The best one could do with it is a tripper build and those are sub-par anyway as there is far to much that can't be tripped.
The best one could do with it is a tripper build and those are sub-par anyway as there is far to much that can't be tripped.
Tripping was just the cherry on top. The real power of the spiked chain was that it was the only reach weapon that also threatened adjacent squares. This made it superior to all other reach weapons, and multiplied the power of: cleave, great cleave, whirlwind attack, combat reflexes, enlarge person, and certain other effects. With a Spiked Chain, it was possible to make low level characters with ridiculous numbers of attacks, not plagued by the weakness of other ranged weapons.
Yea. That and the Synthesist (oh hello again Druidzilla) were some...interesting choices. But there is a very important thing to note about the kusarigama: it's a double weapon. You could enchant both the reach portion and the non-reach portion for the price of one weapon in 3.5 (since they were the same portion of the weapon), but you can't do that in PF.
And word of warning, a kusarigama is a two-handed weapon, which means no spell combat as a magus.
Couldn't a Magus use a kusarigama and simply cast their spells using Spellstrike and Spell Combat?
The spiked chain was one of my favorite weapons. I guess that makes me a power gamer. I loved the flavor of it and the versatility of it. I happen to think that spending a feat on an exotic weapon was a reasonable cost for using it.
Most of the characters I saw power gaming with spiked chains were trip builds, and you could do the same thing with other reach weapons.
One of the disappointments I had when first viewing the PF rules was the spiked chain nerfing.
I still love the flavor of the spiked chain.
4e made you spend your only multiclass option on learning the spiked chain, which totally gimped a spiked chain user. But I still used one and enjoyed it.
Instead of nerfing it out of practical existence, I wish the game designers had come up with a reasonable way to balance it so that it was still usable, but cost more. I'd probably invest another feat in it to use it both as reach and adjacent. But then I'm all about the flavor.
Paizo in writing up PF had a habit of VINDICTIVELY nerfing the bejesus out of things from 3.5 that were nice for non-casters to have. Spiked chain going from best weapon to worse than most martial weapons is one striking example. The changes to splash weapons, especially in regards to sneak attacking; the huge nerf to tumble DCs; turning pounce from a level 1+ ability (Lion spirit totem Barb) into a level 10+ ability (unless you're a spellcaster, like the summoner's eidolon, who gets it at 1); and so forth are more such examples.
Vindictive is the only appropriate word for it, because even if these things were broken (they weren't), the extent to which paizo excessively nerfed them, combined with their pre-release complaints about how "cheesy" they were (such as whining about the 3E "flasked avenger" rogue) makes it clear that there was more than "balance" going on, there was an agenda and a grudge.
The spiked chain was the weapon of choice for a lot of power gamers and really the only drawback was that it took a feat to acquire proficiency. Pathfinder authors decided it needed toning down and most (but not all) folks seem to agree.
The weapon of choice for power gamers was to be a spell caster. Spiked chain was the weapon of choice for people seeking to make lemonade out of lemons.
Paizo in writing up PF had a habit of VINDICTIVELY nerfing the bejesus out of things from 3.5 that were nice for non-casters to have. Spiked chain going from best weapon to worse than most martial weapons is one striking example. The changes to splash weapons, especially in regards to sneak attacking; the huge nerf to tumble DCs; turning pounce from a level 1+ ability (Lion spirit totem Barb) into a level 10+ ability (unless you're a spellcaster, like the summoner's eidolon, who gets it at 1); and so forth are more such examples.
Well, you can just be a Synthegist 1 who multiclasses into another martial class. Just take pounce and extra arms so you can wield weapons. Only drawback is lower Con or Dex than usual (and naked no armor).
Exactly remember this quote from Jason:
Exotic does not mean better. Yes you have to pay a feat to use it in most circumstances, but that is just not exactly how these are designed. Some do offer some nice benefits, but that is by no means the rules. Exotic means rare and unusual first. That means that some of them are not the "best" in-game mechanical decision your character can make.
So yeah, exotic feats in PF are flavor not power. Meaning they should be traits that grant proficiency since theyaren't really worth a feat.
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Have you considered that maybe Pathfinder isn't the game for you SotS? It would seem that every post of yours is just complaint after complaint. Makes me wonder why you even bother.
Funny thing, I didn't really like the Spiked Chain much, but it was the only exotic weapon I felt was worth the feat it cost.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency should be a Trait, or Exotic Weapons should do more.
Feats are too darn valuable to waste on weapons that don't really grant an advantage. The only exotic weapons I ever see used in play are ones that come as a part of Racial training.
I can OFTEN be found spending a feat on bastard sword.... I just like them.
I have a hard time with the cheese of two handing a one handed weapon because you dont want to spend a feat... so I feel self-righteous when I have a bastard sword. :>
I like Bastard Swords too. I just don't like having to light a feat on fire to use them right.
When I feel the need to use a bastard sword I usually just play a dwarf and use a Waraxe. It's close enough, and then I get to talk in a funny accent.
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Have you considered that maybe Pathfinder isn't the game for you SotS? It would seem that every post of yours is just complaint after complaint. Makes me wonder why you even bother.
Maybe because he likes the game overall but has a problem with certain elements.
Just because you point out the negatives in a system doesn't mean you don't like the system overall. You can love a system while hating certain aspects of it.
That's how games are improved and why they have multiple printings. Some people don't want to settle for a game they know can be improved.
Tripping was just the cherry on top. The real power of the spiked chain was that it was the only reach weapon that also threatened adjacent squares. This made it superior to all other reach weapons, and multiplied the power of: cleave, great cleave, whirlwind attack, combat reflexes, enlarge person, and certain other effects. With a Spiked Chain, it was possible to make low level characters with ridiculous numbers of attacks, not plagued by the weakness of other ranged weapons.
As far as I'm concerned, the spiked chain is still in the game. My monk loves his Double Chained Kama. He can fight adjacent hexes with it but it also has reach and is a tripping weapon.
My monk chooses to use it as a 2 handed weapon rather than double weapon and with his combat reflexes, he trips anything that comes near him. With enlarge potions, he has a reach from adjacent to 20 feet.