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I'm missing something I think.
The cleric gets two domains, full casting, med armor and shields. channeling, 2 skill points
The druid gets an animal or one domain, full casting, med armor and shields but limited, 4 skill points.
druid gets a few different weapons.
Whats the gig? If you dont choose animal companion you are gimped?
I mean does animal companion really = two domains and channeling?
seems the cleric gets more. what am i missing?
Assume I'm weighing a cleric character vs. a druid character with a domain instead of an AC
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spontaneously cast summons vs spontaneously cast heals thats an equal trade.
Wild shape is meh and comes really slowly and unless you make a wild shape focused build it's really limited in actual effectiveness.
Poison immunity is ok, but spells handle that. alter self comes much later.
The spell lists are different enough to ooooah over.
level 1-4 doesn't look like the druid is on equal ground at all.
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spontaneously cast summons vs spontaneously cast heals thats an equal trade.
No way, not even a little. Wands of CLW are cheap, cheap, cheap.
Wands of SNA? Not so much. At least not ones that will be of much use. Plus those spontaneous summons get WAY better with each level (letting you keep them around for more rounds per caster level) whereas Cure spells hit a maximum efficiency pretty quickly. Sure it's a little gimped compared to Summon Monster, but summoning is bar-none the most powerful thing a caster can do low levels.
Wildshape also gives druid a Fly ability before anybody else in the party. That's nothing to sneeze at. It also gives them pounce before even the martial classes. With the proper feats Wildshape is beastly. (Edit: Er, no pun intended of course.)
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Animal companions are pretty good.
Wild shape allows you to disguise yourself as a small inoffensive bird and fly all day and surprise enemies with spells. Or become an earth elemental and burrow around, or a become a pteranodon and carry your allies around.
I mean, yes, as long as you choose two of the better domains, clerics might well be more powerful overall. That's probably by design - clerics are traditionally one of the more essential parts of a group, and not every group has someone who wants to play a cleric.
seems the cleric gets more. what am i missing?
You're missing that Animal Companion & Wildshape are both incredibly good abilities.
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When I compared both classes I thought: Wow, the druid gets lots of stuff and the cleric just gets spells and channel and nothing else. Sure there are the domains, but most just get something at level 1 and 8. All the other levels just get spells and channel. I thought PF had gotten rid of all those empty levels.
2 domains isn't twice as good as 1 domain.
in domain abilities, but not in domain spells, you only have 1 domain slot. EDIT: ninja'd ;-)
i'm not aware of any cleric archetypes that even have spontaneous domain casting.
there's several for druid, including one that gives you a 2nd domain @ midlevel.
domain access is quite broad if you use appropriate archetypes - independent of deities unlike clerics.
if you're looking at level 1-4, a druid animal companion + druid themself SHREDS at those levels, compared to a single cleric.
even if you don't build stat-wise for 'melee demon' wildshaping, wildshape is the equivalent of very long duration beastshape or elemental body spells which some wizards presumably spend spellslots to cast, and great just for utility if you don't even try to use them for direct melee combat.
druids can dump INT and still have more skill points than an animal companion unlike clerics ;-)
so yeah, looks like this thread is answered :-)
Wild shape is meh and comes really slowly and unless you make a wild shape focused build it's really limited in actual effectiveness.If you think wildshape is limited you're just not imaginative enough.
Wildshape means never being the ultimate in stealth. Even if an enemy sees you they won't notice. You're just a small, harmless, common animal.
Wildshape is +7 AC and the ability to get full cover from a loaf of bread.
Wildshape is being able to turn into a whirlwind or whirlpool or earthglide.
Wildshape is being able to carry your whole party over a chasm. At level 6. Without using a spell slot.
Wildshape is being able to get the heavy loot home when you forgot to prepare ant haul.
Wildshape is a lot of things.
REally? all that at 4th level huh?
seems the cleric gets more. what am i missing?You're missing that Animal Companion & Wildshape are both incredibly good abilities.
Read the post please. Im weighing a druid with NO animal companion vs. a cleric.
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spontaneously cast summons vs spontaneously cast heals thats an equal trade.No way, not even a little. Wands of CLW are cheap, cheap, cheap.
Wands of SNA? Not so much. At least not ones that will be of much use. Plus those spontaneous summons get WAY better with each level (letting you keep them around for more rounds per caster level) whereas Cure spells hit a maximum efficiency pretty quickly. Sure it's a little gimped compared to Summon Monster, but summoning is bar-none the most powerful thing a caster can do low levels.
Wildshape also gives druid a Fly ability before anybody else in the party. That's nothing to sneeze at. It also gives them pounce before even the martial classes. With the proper feats Wildshape is beastly. (Edit: Er, no pun intended of course.)
In fairness summoning is a full round action while while channeling is not. Also, channeling can affect multiple players.
2 domains isn't twice as good as 1 domain.
in domain abilities, but not in domain spells, you only have 1 domain slot. EDIT: ninja'd ;-)
i'm not aware of any cleric archetypes that even have spontaneous domain casting.
there's several for druid, including one that gives you a 2nd domain @ midlevel.
domain access is quite broad if you use appropriate archetypes - independent of deities unlike clerics.if you're looking at level 1-4, a druid animal companion + druid themself SHREDS at those levels, compared to a single cleric.
even if you don't build stat-wise for 'melee demon' wildshaping, wildshape is the equivalent of very long duration beastshape or elemental body spells which some wizards presumably spend spellslots to cast, and great just for utility if you don't even try to use them for direct melee combat.
druids can dump INT and still have more skill points than an animal companion unlike clerics ;-)
so yeah, looks like this thread is answered :-)
HELLooooo I said NO animal companion.
I'm looking at a cleric vs. a druid with a domain, NOT an animal companion.
The idea is to make a generalist adventurer, sort of a divine gish.
I'm looking at cave druid, you can get two domains, and more useful all around skills on which to spend the extra skill points.
You don't get wild shape until 4th level, even then it's limited and one per day. I'm not discussing an instant leap to high levels with bunches of feats to burn on a melee wild shape build and natural spell.... I also made that clear.
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wasn't that clear to me...
thread title just says cleric vs. druid, then comparing druid to cleric you say:
you go on to say 'assuming i choose domain not AC', but your own comparisons DID '[look] at cleric vs. druid WITH AC'.
you never discussed levels to begin with either, in a later post you mention levels 1-4 (which includes level 4), and on your next post you re-affirmed the idea that level 4 was a valid comparison with 'you get all that (for wildshape) at level 4?' i.e. suggesting that the full 20 level wildshape progression isn't relevant but level 4 is.
if you compare wildshape to the equivalent beastshape/elementalbody spell, you are certainly at least getting the equivalent of spell slots of those level spells (beastshape 1 = 3rd level spell) but with 1hr/level instead of 1min/level duration.
i think having an AC is GREAT for an all around generalist adventurer, you have your own melee follower all the time, plus full casting.
i do like the domain options alot, for letting you expand upon the druid spell list, amongst other abilities.
you can weigh the trade-offs yourself, but i think plenty of the archetypes that benefit domains ARE great.
...so yeah, that's the stuff i think you were missing, have fun whichever way you go...
i get the gist alot better from your last post, but you did kind of write some conflicting stuff in terms of bringing in subjects to the thread, it would have helped if you had just kept it focused narrowly on what your actual concern was.
I talking about making a new character, not suddenly 'poofing' to a certain level.
I didn't ask, do druids eventually become good?
I can look at the level progression charts too.
Compare the druid and cleric spell lists. I think the druid list is much better for blasting & battlefield control
OK, but you were just talking abstractly about the classes,
many people (especially on these boards) consider a 'full level career' when comparing classes,
and your own later posts were explicitly discussing up to level 4, not just level 1.
if you explicitly asked only about level 1, that's what i would have responded to,
i was just sharing what i thought you may have overlooked/undervalued.
either class can be great to play. /shrug
actually, I was hoping there was something I wasnt looking at.
not the obvious ANIMAL COMPANION!!
AC is certainly an option. But I dislike the paperwork and typically forget about it.
It's annoying that people assume, without reading that some how you know nothing about wild shaping and ACs'.
The point is, it seems dropping animal companion in favor of a Domain sucks. It's not an even trade.
The druid gets more skill points and an animal companion at level 1.
The cleric gets two domains and channeling.
the cleric gets better armor choices, the druid gets slightly better weapons.
It always seemed odd that the druid is a paragon of nature, and that undead are as natural as you can get but druids have no options to turn undead.
Access to turn undead without other ways to channel would be fair, methinks.
It just seems to me a druid with choosing the domain instead of the animal gets punked.
That's what I'm getting at.
Level 1-4 the druid without AC is punked.
Maybe by level 12 when you get more wild shape options, it can be better, but then again, spending feats to make it better is required. So if you don't focus on it, it's not that great. More like a parlor trick.
I get that you can turn into a bird or something. But again at level 4 you can only do it once.
Im trying to find a way to get the most access to skills and other versatility with the druid.
Im looking at half elf. Taking the ancestral arms to get longbow. So I can switch hit if needed. and going into two weapon fighting with scimitar and shield.
I'm considering going into horizon walker eventually.
I would play a ranger, but I want access to spells at level 1. Otherwise I'd be comparing paladin vs. ranger.
Compare the druid and cleric spell lists. I think the druid list is much better for blasting & battlefield control
Ok well im not seeing it... point something out?
Clerics don't get call lightening, what else is decent that's not jumping out at me?
I don't know if Nature Bond's choices are equal. I believe the choice is there for players who want to play a druid but don't want to take on management of a buddy.
Yes, I see that. I would rather not manage the buddy, but already recognize the power.
The trade off doesn't seem good tho.
I don't want to focus on healing the buddy, rolling for the buddy etc etc. would rather fill that niche with summons if/when necessary; disposable, sacrificable summons.
looking for more avenues to get the most rounded skills etc out of this... seems this path requires more milking than necessary when taking the road less traveled.
mixing cave druid with urban druid would be awesome, Im thinking they don't mix but its not immediately obvious, they both modifyy natures bond, but im not sure if it's mutally exclusive?
undead are as natural as you can get!!!
i meant Unnatural.... i HATE apple autocorrect.
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mixing cave druid with urban druid would be awesome, Im thinking they don't mix but its not immediately obvious, they both modifyy natures bond, but im not sure if it's mutally exclusive?
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. Emphasis, Mine.
As for this thread, I agree with the premise - The option for a Druid to give up his animal companion is great, but what you get in terms of a single Domain seems like some hard medicine to swallow. I personally think you should get a bit more out of it, like maybe two domains. That said, the Storm Druid archetype gets two domains (receiving the second at 9th level), but the choices are slim and the flavor doesn't fit well into all campaigns.
destruction domain without having to worship and evil god seems attractive...
Im looking for as much versatility as possible, I like horizon walker, but spells never progress seems bent really seeing as druids and rangers both the most likely classes to become horizon walkers both cast....
Urban druid with the eagle domain would be interesting, but can i GET eagle domain as a druid? Is that a sub domain of animal?
Pathfinder PRD Says:Animal and Terrain Domains
Presented in the section below are new rules for animal and terrain domains—domains for druids whose focus is more specific than the Animal, Plant, Weather, or elemental domains. A druid with the nature's bond ability can choose an animal domain or terrain domain. Just like cleric domains, animal and terrain domains have granted powers and domain spells, and a druid who selects an animal or terrain domain gains a domain spell slot at each level. A druid who worships a deity (as opposed to nature in general) cannot select an animal or terrain domain that contradicts or is outside of the portfolio of her deity. Emphasis, Mine.
The wording seems to indicate that of course a druid can select an animal domain, but that the choices may be subject to DM discretion if you worship a specific deity. If you just worship nature though, you should be good to go, as long as you have the Nature's bond class feature.
Hmmm. A cave druid with the eagle domain.... something seeeemmms OFF.
The urban druid with the eagle domain seems better, still odd, but downright what.
I really like the dungeon druid (cave guy) and I like the urban druid and the eagle domain seems like a neat gimmick.
that's kinda what im looking for, how to get more mileage out of druid without having an AC/wildshape focus.
Menhir Savant is interesting.
Wont stack with urban druid...HUGE bummer.
But looks like it stacks with cave druid. could be interesting.
Now what domain if I was going to make a Menhir Savant Cave Druid?
This would make an awesome grow blooded half elf, or grow character. But none of that shenanigans are allowed for this PC.
thoughts?
So what else is there out there LIKE this, that makes druid without an AC palatable?
Yes, I see that. I would rather not manage the buddy, but already recognize the power.
The trade off doesn't seem good tho.
I agree.
When you look at it as increased spellcasting, with one extra spell per spell level, its great. But having one mere domain offers absolutely no choice in what the extra spell is, so its akin to getting a once-a-day spell like ability at each odd-numbered level. If you assume that some of the domain spells will rarely get used, the only other way to utilize them is by acquiring a way to burn spell slots.
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ok so is a menhir savant still casting spontaneous summon natures ally? this seems wrong. Should spontaneously cast a domain spell, no? is there any errata on this?
Personal opinion: druids also have a better spell list over all. Its only a minor thing when both lists are filled with win. I just think that druids have ever so slightly more win.
please point out the win...I generally dont play full casters... so im not as much of a spell peruser.
Call lightening is something cleric doesnt get, but you have to be outside to use it.
Buuut you dont get blade barrier, which is a cleric favorite.
there's barkskin, so there's an edge, a bit... what else should i be looking for?
I like aspect of the falcon with the eagle domain because Ill have a bow...
I'd be happy to. I'm at work right now so I can't reference anything at the moment. But as soon as I'm done (might be late tonight) I'll make spell comparison list. Honestly both lists are really good. I just give druids a slight edge. Especially at lower levels. Bu if your looking for a good spell list you'll never regret you wrote cleric on your character sheet.
Ive played clerics since 1E pretty regular.
Druids, I played a druid/ranger when you first could do it (originally it wasnt available)
and I played a druid once in..1e? I cant recall a druid I've played in 3.X or beyond.
Entangle. That spell can shut down a huge area while you can just shoot them.
yea it can. I think that's a ranger spell too. Becomes irrelevant after a while, like web.
We had a situation where this was used on an otyugh a few years ago, I can't recall but I think it was in CoT. There was a ranger in that group, must have been who cast it...
Here are some of my favorite Druid spells. Spell choices are always build & strategy dependent, of course, so for any given Druid I would expect only half of them to be useful.
Level 1 - Faerie Fire, Feather Step, Longstrider, Produce Flame, Shillelagh
Level 2 - Barkskin, Flame Blade, Soften Earth and Stone, Stone Call
Level 3 - Call Lightning, Mass Feather Step, Ice Spears, Mad Monkeys, Greater Magic Fang
Level 4 - Ball Lightning, Echolocation, Strong Jaw
Level 5 - Call Lightning Storm, Stoneskin, Transmute Rock to Mud
Level 6 - Communal Stoneskin
I am a huge fan of the druid class. I love my own druid. But I wouldn't argue that druids are superior to clerics in pure power. There are some crossover points, the animal companion is very nice to have around at lower levels where it is almost as good as another PC.
But in the end I play druids because I like the flavor and like their versatility, not because the beat out clerics.
I would liek to point out 1 thing. An all druid party is much more terrifying than an all cleric party. Turns out, the druid weakness of having only animal buff spells means a whole lot less when the tank is a giant face mawing tiger... And the other party members are dropping Dazing Lightning Storms.
It's like comparing peaches to apples.
Yes they are both divine, but not the same .
Druid are best when they DONT focus- when they can fill any roll, and any position.
A cleric is more focused.
Actually druids are best when they DO focus. A Druid that tries to do everything is going to be much weaker than a Druid that focused on a certain aspect, which is why it is always suggested to druids t pick either melee or spellcasting and focus on one of the two. A melee druid, which capable of spellcasting, won' have a high enough wis to pus his DCs into useful ranges (often settling on a 19 by the end to have 9th level casting). The melee druid is more focused on buffs for his Wildshape forms. While a caster druid will mainly use wildshape for utility and defense (turning tiny so that a a small object technically counts as cover), while forgoing Str in favor of having a high wis for his spell DCs
Well, clerics are far better healers than droods. So if your party needs dedicated heals don't expect it from the drood. Old EQ gag with drood.