I've played a lot of wizards, but not many clerics so I'm looking for some general advice on play styles.
The categories that I can think of are caster, melee, archer. Besides the obvious what are the pros and cons of those?
What does a caster cleric do besides buff and heal? What are some good strategies for a caster cleric?
What's the best build for a melee cleric?
Is an archer cleric worth it and how does one keep decent bow damage as you level?
Feel free to volunteer information, but these are the questions I have to start with.
Thanks paizonians.
What I know from trying to build a caster Oracle (of Life) is that early cleric spells seem to assume you'll be wading into battle. There are no really great choices. No blasts at all until Admonishing Ray and only single target, single round CC (Command or Murderous Command) for quite a while. It's almost all buffs, especially melee buffs.
Later on, things get much better, but starting at level 1, a pure caster cleric is rough. Maybe with the right Domain powers, you'd have something useful to do, but my Oracle is stuck and has to fight a little.
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What's the best build for a melee cleric?
I won't claim "best", but I'm doing really well in PFS. You can click my name to see more details; note that the stats there include +1 to CON for hitting 4th level, and also a +2 WIS headband.
I have tank-ish AC, thanks to Armor of the Pit and decent DEX (equivalent to full plate w/ 12 DEX, except without reduced movement speed or heavy ACPs, and a hair better Touch AC).
At the first couple of levels, simply having decent armor and 16STR made me solid in melee. Around 4th level, I was prepping a couple of bull's strength slots each day, along with shield of faith and magic weapon. If a fight looks like it needs more melee power, I toss up whichever buff seems most relevant and go to it.
At 5th level, I have access to a domain slot of heroism, which is an amazing buff that lasts 10min/level. With careful foresight, that can potentially last multiple encounters, and let me spend some slots on other spells besides buffs (like hold person, pilfering hand, liberating command, and so forth).
As I continue to advance, I'll continue to manage my buffs and magic items such that I never need to spend more than 1 in-combat round buffing, so that I can also fill control/offensive casting roles as needed. Alternatively, you could be totally buff-focused and always wade into melee with 2-4 buffs up, but mine's a PFS character and versatility is a plus in PFS.
Is an archer cleric worth it and how does one keep decent bow damage as you level?
I haven't built one, but my best guess is that it's important to be a human so you can have Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot at 1st level. Get your bow proficiency from your deity or a trait or something. Have at least 14 STR. If you take the Crusader archetype, you can get Weapon Focus for free on your deity's favored weapon. At 3rd level you take Rapid Shot. Make use of buff spells, just like a melee cleric would.
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The obvious cons for the Archer is that it requires extensive feat selections. PB shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid shot are the 3 main feats for Archer, and a Cleric cannot get all 3 under normal circumstances(As far as I know) at first level. They also can't do alot of damage since they need to focus on Wisdom for casting, Constitution for living, Dex for hitting, and Intellegence for skills. Not all Clerics need Charisma, but they much prefer it.
That, and the only 2 Deities that approve Bows and Crossbows are LG and LN respectively. It's to my understanding that most people don't like playing Good or Lawful unless they are told to. I... don't know why... but I always hear people complaining about how they dislike being LG.
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They also can't do alot of damage since they need to focus on Wisdom for casting, Constitution for living, Dex for hitting, and Intellegence for skills. Not all Clerics need Charisma, but they much prefer it.
This reveals a common misconception about casters: that you need a high casting stat.
This simply isn't true for a caster who isn't a blaster/controller. You only need an 11 to cast your 1st-level spells, a 12 to cast your 2nd-level spells, etc. A high modifier gets you bonus spells, but not many, and even those are less important when you plan to be attacking most rounds. A high modifier also raises your save DCs... which you're not using unless you're a blaster or controller. All an archer cares about is buff spells and healing spells, which do not benefit at all from a high casting stat.
Do not fall into the "casters must always prioritize their casting stat" trap!
Bull's strength doesn't care what your WIS is. Two 3rd-level clerics, one with 12 WIS and one with 22 WIS, cast exactly the same bull's strength. Same effect, same duration, same DC to dispel, etc. The 22 WIS guy has no advantage whatsoever.
If you build an archer cleric, take a 12 WIS. Gets you a bonus 1st-level spell, which is when you need it the most. At 4th level, bump it to 13, so at 5th you can cast your 3rd-level spells. Sometime before you hit 7th level (4th-level spells), get a +2 WIS headband (enabling spells up to 5th level). Sometime before you hit 11th level (7th level spells) either put another level bump in WIS or upgrade your headband to +4 (which should be trivial by then).
"I need a high casting stat" is a terrible assumption. Break out of it. Only certain builds need it.
I disagree with Jiggy. Having a higher casting stat also givers you bonus spells per day, which are useful regardless of what type of spells you cast. I would say try to get 16 minimum even if you aren't focusing on spellcasting.
That aside, reach weapons are also great for clerics. You can get an attack of OP just from the enemy moving into an adjacent square (only the really smart ones will stop 10ft away, go total defense for a round and then 5ft step in to attack on their next turn) and you can save your standard actions for a spell or just 5ft step away and attack again.
Even if you go with a bow as your main focus, I would keep a longspear on hand for those times when they get too close.
Yeah, I am not excited about archer clerics, either.
Get into being a support PC, but not a heal-bot. Get a couple of good domains, like Fire and be a caster cleric, always fun. Caster/buffer clerics are great as your highest stats aid you in combat, you don’t have MAD issues. And of course as the game progresses, Spellcasters beat out warriors.
Remember to Channeling is very useful, thus a decent CHA and Selective Channel is nice.
Say cleric of Sarenrae with Fire and healing. Str 12, dex12, con 12 or 14, Wis 16+, int 10 or 12, CHA 14.
At lower levels, the tank cleric works. Just be sure not to depend upon or cast too many self-buffing spells, do more party buffs. I really enjoyed playing a cleric with a longspear or other reach weapon (Shelyn gets a Glaive!)
But who else is in the party?
The guided hand feat can provide a compelling argument for having a high casting stat too, since it also aids in your ability to hit with your weapon.
This reveals a common misconception about casters: that you need a high casting stat.
Do not fall into the "casters must always prioritize their casting stat" trap!
Bull's strength doesn't care what your WIS is. Two 3rd-level clerics, one with 12 WIS and one with 22 WIS, cast exactly the same bull's strength. Same effect, same duration, same DC to dispel, etc. The 22 WIS guy has no advantage whatsoever.
I disagree. Not only does it add to your spells DC but it also gives you bonus spells. Mind you, other than a Wizard, few can afford to dump everything in search of super Mix/Max. Note that if you can get a 20, you get TWO bonus 1st level spells, which is extra nice. But few clerics can achieve a 20 wis early, altho a Sorc or Wiz can get a 20 in their casting stat easily. Jiggy sez that a cleric with a WIS of 22 gets no adnavtage when casting Bull’s Str, but they do- they get to cast it an extra time a day.
It’s true you can build a archer or melee cleric- but why? I mean, if you want a divine Spellcaster that is good with bows or swords, build a Paladin or a Inquisitor or even a ranger.
I'm pretty sure you need to channel smite, channel and profic. with your deities favored weapon. to use guided hand
The Reach Cleric and Hangover Cleric are two interesting builds.
Since clerics have decent hit points, armor, saves, and weapons, I'm a bigger fan of putting them in melee than trying to be an archer. They have a lot of good touch spells, so they're great candidates for spell storing weapons.
I'm pretty sure you need to channel smite, channel and profic. with your deities favored weapon. to use guided hand
Yes, that's stated in the description. Easily in reach for a 1st level human cleric.
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I disagree with Jiggy. Having a higher casting stat also givers you bonus spells per day, which are useful regardless of what type of spells you cast. I would say try to get 16 minimum even if you aren't focusing on spellcasting.
Spoken like someone who hasn't looked past "higher stat=better casting" to see how the mechanics actually function.
At levels 1-2, there is no difference between a 16 and a 12, except save DCs. This isn't opinion or advice, this is fact.
At levels 3-4, there is no difference between a 16 and a 14, except save DCs. This isn't opinion or advice, this is fact.
It's not until 5th level that having a 16 is actually superior to a lower score, by virtue of getting you an extra 3rd-level spell.
Actual math > "more is better"ism
It’s true you can build a archer or melee cleric- but why? I mean, if you want a divine Spellcaster that is good with bows or swords, build a Paladin or a Inquisitor or even a ranger.
But this person wants to build a cleric? I know on the stat block clerics are MAD like the monk.
But that's beside the point, what kind of cleric do YOU want to make? I suggest reading the domains and sub domains to deside what you would like your cleric to be. and if you DO PICK A DEITY you get there favored weapon.
Example: Level 3 Human Cleric of Urgathoa (LN) gets to use a scythe and domains are death and war. Get to do bleed damage a round cause of the death domain and you get a flat bonus to your damage rolls.
Stats:
STR: 14, DEX: 13, CON: 12, INT: 8, WIS: 17, CHA: 16
Feats: Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Selective Channeling (I like to AOE things down ;D).
Play style: Buff yourself and just enjoy the blood bath. But leave a slot open for a CLW or 2 (entirely up to you but I prep 1 CLW and have a bunch of scrolls to do that with so I can still be useful even if the party is divine heavy.)
I was (very loosely) thinking of a cleric of the merchant god who rents himself o adventuring groups. Mostly for the flavor and not the mechanics. I'd love to also somehow be a combat monster if possible. Just not sure how.
Look at gorum (greatsword) he has Destruction, War, Strength, Glory, and Chaos. Or Sheylin (Glavie) she gets Good, Luck, Charm, Air, and Protection.
Like I said, read the domians, some of them are really worth it, personally think rune kinda is meh (some of the domain spells are just bad imo but the abilities are nuts), but scribe scroll as a bonus feat, totally worth it.
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I was (very loosely) thinking of a cleric of the merchant god who rents himself o adventuring groups. Mostly for the flavor and not the mechanics. I'd love to also somehow be a combat monster if possible. Just not sure how.
You mean Abadar? If you already have the deity picked out and want to build from there, then you start by checking out the deity's favored weapon and domains/subdomains. Domain powers and domain spells will generally lend themselves to one type of cleric or another.
I was (very loosely) thinking of a cleric of the merchant god who rents himself o adventuring groups.
Jiggy is right to mention Abadar then, and I'll repost my reference to the unfortunately named Hangover Cleric. The basic idea of that build is to be a Lawful Neutral cleric of Abadar (Other gods work, but Abadar is prime for this build.) As a neutral cleric of a neutral god, you get your choice of channeling positive or negative energy, choose negative, and take the variant channeling option for the Leadership(aka Rulership) Domain. Whenever enemies get hit by your Channel Energy, they are dazed for a round in addition to taking damage.
Also to agree inith Jiggy, having a 12 Wisdom usually means having a 16 constitution and strength, and probably a good dex too. If your play style is cast one buff spell then charge in swinging, the physical stats will go a lot farther than an extra spell per day. Also a cleric can leave a slot unused and just pray for 15 minutes to get any spell on the cleric list, so all you really need to memorize are a few buffs and emergency spells. IMO the only cleric with a high wisdom should be a controller/toucher cleric where the DCs become important. Also the only cleric that should have a high charisma should be a channeler, but a melee cleric or an archer cleric can do pretty well with mediocre to low stats in both.
Here is an example: Dwarf Cleric (because they're the coolest clerics)
STR 17 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8Level 4 goes to wis, level 8 on goes to str, and a +2 headband is needed at level 7, a +4 by level 11, and a +6 by level 15 to cover all 9 spell levels of casting. And I didn't even dump a stat on the 20 point buy.
I have a level 8 battle oracle in pfs. I have 0 spells with a dc. I use my cha primarily for skills.
I have never felt weak. In fact the oracle is quote the opposite.
I disagree with Jiggy. Having a higher casting stat also givers you bonus spells per day, which are useful regardless of what type of spells you cast. I would say try to get 16 minimum even if you aren't focusing on spellcasting.Spoken like someone who hasn't looked past "higher stat=better casting" to see how the mechanics actually function.
At levels 1-2, there is no difference between a 16 and a 12, except save DCs. This isn't opinion or advice, this is fact.
At levels 3-4, there is no difference between a 16 and a 14, except save DCs. This isn't opinion or advice, this is fact.
It's not until 5th level that having a 16 is actually superior to a lower score, by virtue of getting you an extra 3rd-level spell.Actual math > "more is better"ism
Well, yes, Jiggy but YOU mentioned a 22 WIS, and the 22 WIS Cleric does get a large advantage over his 12 Wis brother. So, by ACTUAL MATH, a 22 Wis is better.
But altho a 1st cleric ”only gets” higher spell DC’s (and skills, and will saves) with a 12 WIS as opposed to a 16, a 1st level fighter “only gets” better to hit and damage. Maybe somemone wants to play a finesse fighter or a archery fighter or .....
The Reach Cleric and Hangover Cleric are two interesting builds.
Since clerics have decent hit points, armor, saves, and weapons, I'm a bigger fan of putting them in melee than trying to be an archer. They have a lot of good touch spells, so they're great candidates for spell storing weapons.
Darn, beaten to it. Well, I can at least elaborate on the reach cleric. The reach cleric is built around the idea that you can get both casting and melee in the same round. It uses the actions on your turn to accomplish casting buffs, summon, healing, etc., while you use Attacks of Opportunity to physically attack opponents. With the wide range of a spear or other reach weapon, you can easily attack opponents as they approach you or try to get by you to reach allies. This obviously provides a deterrent against such movements, and you can control a good area with this strategy. The build could do fairly well as a solo character from level 1 to 20 since it can take advantage of both melee and magic.
For caster types, one of the interesting options is to focus on summoning during combat. This provides backup for your teammates that is relatively expendable. Superior Summoning lets the option of summoning multiple creatures of a lower summoner level become attractive by turning that 1d3 into a 1d3+1, guaranteeing that you get at least 2 for your effort or up to 4. The average comes out to 3 obviously, which might be better than summoning 1 of the appropriate level. You could also summon 1d4+2 monsters of any level below that, but I am not sure of how effective that would be until higher spell levels. A zerg rush of ponies would be interesting at least. Summoning is usually a full-round action (which seems to prevent use of AoO's that reach clerics rely on), but you can reduce it to a standard action using Sacred Summons, but this restricts you to either a select few choices or at least certain alignments depending on the interpretation.
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I will agree that for Clerics, trying to max out Wis, even for a Casteing Cleric, is usually a poor idea. To do their base job, they kind of need all stats. They do not get all the built-in synergies that practically every other caster gets, so a dump stat (even a 10) is going to hurt you somewhere. Your job as a Cleric is both to heal/buff/support the group, but also to be the back-up tank, caster, and face.
Different archtypes and builds can emphasis different aspects, but that is still the core of the Cleric class. Because you need to spread your stats so thin, that means it's hard for you to qualify for a lot of feat chains and you sorely lack in feats anyway. Even with Channeling, you'd be surprized how often you need to start dumping our spells into heals, so it's hard to count on having that spell sometimes.
Str: because you need the strength to at least carry your armor and gear, not to mention all the times you need to just need to make a str chck to be able to act or move. Even if you go Guided Hand, (5th levelish) or Archery, you still need Str for damage.
Dex: there is a reason crap Init is called Cleric Init. Not to mention your stuck with Light and Medium armor for a frontish liner, and so many skills are Dex based. This is one of your two biggest dump stat pools, but that doesn't mean that you do not need it, as much as it's one of the ones that you kind of need the least.
Con: You need HP, and Fort Saves are the second best save to avoid making yourself not useless. Unlike most other casters, you don't realistically have as much an option to stay in the back and avoid damage, even for ranged Clerics, (unless your entire party is ranged).
Int: Your other big dump stat, and again, it's not that you do not need it as much as it's the one you need slightly less than others to function. The issue is, you get 2+Int skills, and have about 7 basicaly manditory skills you need to focus on, just to do your job. Even with Human, Favred Class Going to Skills, and a 12 Int, your behind the curve, and the first few levels are going to be not so fun. The other issue is that so many skills are Int based.
Wis: your main casting stat, as well as your main Domain stuff stat. The issue is, there is not a whole lot other real uses for Wis beyond a few skills and Will saves, which you get good in and are usually above everyone else besides the Paladin in a few levels. A lot of Domain abilities tied to Wis at all, are well, not good. And the difference between a high Wis and a min Wis for your spellcasting is literally about 1, maybe 2 spells.
Cha: Your other "casting" stat as 1/2 - 1/3 of your "casting" ability is tied to this rather than Wis. Again, besides a handful of skills you "need" and Channeling, there isn't too much use/synergy for a high Cha Cleric. If you plan on blasting at all (rather than just healing), a 14 is probably min, and you need to devote to bumping it terrtiarily to Wis/Con/Str. The idue is that after about 3rd level, Channel just doesn't keep up, and that's if maxed out with feats, high Cha, and certain Domains to augment it. With a more average Cha and without the feat and other boosts, it falls very short quickly, good for a top off out of combat, but that's about it. For the blasting side, it's usually not worth the action.
Feats: well the truth is you will lag behind pretty much anyone else even if you focus. You have the least feats in the game, and a lot of times will qualify just around the time that the feat starts to lose it's bang n level appropriate daily encounters. Take that into concideration early, and avoid falling into traps that work for most other classes. There isn't a lot of Cleric feats out there, and the ones designed for Clerics, other classes usually do better, have less trouble getting, and have more total feats to spend.
My advice when playing a Cleric is to decide on a build and playstyle, be up front with the other players from the get go, and stick to it. Inform the arty that if they want a lot of healing (and your not into that), they need to start purchasing wands and scrolls for you to use on them. If you want to be a major font of healing, than inform them that you are the party's VoP, and you are the last one to take a hit or be in danger. If you want to play an archer, inform them that they need to act accordingly, and if they Leroy Jenkins ahead and get beechslapped, you are not running in right behind them with your cure guns blazing. Inform them that you are a player and here to have fun. Not their pet NPC there to make sure they have fun while you sit there waiting to be needed.
I will agree that for Clerics, trying to max out Wis, even for a Casteing Cleric, is usually a poor idea. To do their base job, they kind of need all stats. They do not get all the built-in synergies that practically every other caster gets, so a dump stat (even a 10) is going to hurt you somewhere. Your job as a Cleric is both to heal/buff/support the group, but also to be the back-up tank, caster, and face. ...
Is it the job of the wizard to also Tank?
Look, altho certainly a cleric can be a back-up tank or even a self-buffing tank, it doesn't need to be. A small 100% casting cleric with a str of 8 is perfectly viable in PF.
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Is it the job of the wizard to also Tank?
No, though it can be done. Why do you ask?
Look, altho certainly a cleric can be a back-up tank or even a self-buffing tank, it doesn't need to be. A small 100% casting cleric with a str of 8 is perfectly viable in PF.
Doesn't need to be, but that is the core concept of the class. In all actuality, in my experience anyway, an 8 Str 100% Caster Cleric is actually not very viable. YMMV, but the sheer number of times they will be inactive, trying to keep up, and unable to contribute is just too often and great. It depends on yor playstyle, I guess, but in PFS for example, it simply is not for many of the reasons I mentioned. Your not going t be able to do half of what an arcane caster can do, and usually only affect a single target. Most skill checks are simply going to floor you, and any sort of lockdown effect like Web or Entangle, needing to climb a rope quickly, is pretty much going to take you out of the entire encounter.
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In all actuality, in my experience anyway, an 8 Str 100% Caster Cleric is actually not very viable. ... in PFS for example, it simply is not for many of the reasons I mentioned.
You only think that because you haven't seen it done well yet.
I have. I've seen a "caster cleric" completely wreck encounters. "It's not viable" is therefore false. It's possible there aren't very many ways to accomplish it (I've only witnessed the one), but it's definitely not categorically "not viable".
In all actuality, in my experience anyway, an 8 Str 100% Caster Cleric is actually not very viable. ... in PFS for example, it simply is not for many of the reasons I mentioned.You only think that because you haven't seen it done well yet.
I have. I've seen a "caster cleric" completely wreck encounters. "It's not viable" is therefore false. It's possible there aren't very many ways to accomplish it (I've only witnessed the one), but it's definitely not categorically "not viable".
I am now very interested. What 1st level spells was this person casting/what were they doing in combat most rounds? I'm really struggling with my Oracle as to what to do if I don't fight until at least 2nd level spells (but I'll probably still need other stuff to do after I cast Spiritual Weapon).
My cleric's strategy is to prepare buff spells and forget to cast them every combat, have his heavy warhorse end up having to bail him out of trouble because his party rarely if ever follow him into the breach, and failing every other ride check because my GM doesn't like the trait rules and I cant affording a set of jousting armour yet.
... I wouldn't recommend it, so consider this just a curious dot. :P
I am now very interested. What 1st level spells was this person casting/what were they doing in combat most rounds? I'm really struggling with my Oracle as to what to do if I don't fight until at least 2nd level spells (but I'll probably still need other stuff to do after I cast Spiritual Weapon).In all actuality, in my experience anyway, an 8 Str 100% Caster Cleric is actually not very viable. ... in PFS for example, it simply is not for many of the reasons I mentioned.You only think that because you haven't seen it done well yet.
I have. I've seen a "caster cleric" completely wreck encounters. "It's not viable" is therefore false. It's possible there aren't very many ways to accomplish it (I've only witnessed the one), but it's definitely not categorically "not viable".
A number of domains have abilities that can do nicely at low levels:
Lightning Arc (Sp): As a standard action, you can unleash an arc of electricity targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This arc of electricity deals 1d6 points of electricity damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.Bleeding Touch, Acid Dart, Fire Bolt, and so forth.
Take two of those domains and you have 14 uses a day.
Fire Domains has Burning hands as a domain spell. Other domains also have a attack spell. Get two of those and there's 16 attack spells per game day, not to mention Magic Stone, Ray of Sickening, etc. A wizard, (even counting school spell-like abilities) has about half that, not counting cantrips.
Then, just like a Wizard, one can plink with a Crossbow.
Honestly a caster cleric can be as dangerous as a arcanist, if you pick the right domains
Honestly a caster cleric can be as dangerous as a arcanist, if you pick the right domains
That's what I was afraid of. No help for my Life Oracle. Lame. Thanks, though.
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If ur going for the Melee Cleric then id go with 17 Cha so u can pick up the Heritage Feats for the Orc Bloodline. True its 4/10 feats but all u really need is Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike chain especially if u have a Spell Storing weapon with the inflict wounds, for fighting the living, or cure wounds, for when fighting undead. Also Crusader archetype would be best for a melee cleric for the bonus 5 feats.
If ur going for the Melee Cleric then id go with 17 Cha so u can pick up the Heritage Feats for the Orc Bloodline. True its 4/10 feats but all u really need is Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike chain especially if u have a Spell Storing weapon with the inflict wounds, for fighting the living, or cure wounds, for when fighting undead. Also Crusader archetype would be best for a melee cleric for the bonus 5 feats.
Do NOT take Vital Strike. Ever. For any reason. It is a terrible trap feat.
I'm leaning toward reach cleric.
A number of domains have abilities that can do nicely at low levels. . .I am now very interested. What 1st level spells was this person casting/what were they doing in combat most rounds?In all actuality, in my experience anyway, an 8 Str 100% Caster Cleric is actually not very viable. ... in PFS for example, it simply is not for many of the reasons I mentioned.You only think that because you haven't seen it done well yet.
After the domain spells wear thin, Summon Monster kicks in as a good tactic. (I don't like summoning before Summon Monster III because the duration is so short.) Summoning is flexible and powerful, and clerics are just as good at it as Wizards.
- Blessing of Fervor is level 4, but is essentially Haste, another of the Wizard's best tools. (Wizard gets it at level 5, Sorcerer at 6, Cleric at 7, and it never goes out of style.)
- Wall of Stone, Obscuring Mist and a number of other "control" spells are on both lists.
- Wizards get more & better direct damage, clerics get healing.
- Wizards get certain types of utility spells (Teleport), clerics get others (Find Traps).
- Wizards get more & better personal defense spells (Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image), but clerics have armor, shields, more hit points, and better saves.
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I disagree with Jiggy. Having a higher casting stat also givers you bonus spells per day, which are useful regardless of what type of spells you cast. I would say try to get 16 minimum even if you aren't focusing on spellcasting.Spoken like someone who hasn't looked past "higher stat=better casting" to see how the mechanics actually function.
At levels 1-2, there is no difference between a 16 and a 12, except save DCs. This isn't opinion or advice, this is fact.
At levels 3-4, there is no difference between a 16 and a 14, except save DCs. This isn't opinion or advice, this is fact.
It's not until 5th level that having a 16 is actually superior to a lower score, by virtue of getting you an extra 3rd-level spell.Actual math > "more is better"ism
I agree with you in spirit, but I think you've gone too far in the other direction. Especially where clerics are concerned.
The biggest advantage a cleric has over other prepared casters is that a Cleric can prepare ANY spell on his list. Even if you didn't roll the character with blasting or controlling in mind, you've still got access to all those spells.
Every cleric has blasting and controlling spells. If your cleric starts with 12 Wisdom, you're pretty much committing yourself to never preparing any of them, and that's a lot of versatility that you're just choosing to ignore. If you'd rather just Bull's Strength up and charge in, that's fine, but it won't be long before you get word of a monster the day before you fight it and decide you want to prepare something a little more appropriate to the situation. When that day comes, the 12 Wisdom cleric is just going to have to put his thumb over every spell on the list that allows a save.
The 12 Wisdom cleric is also committing himself to never putting any of his level-up attribute increases into anything but Wisdom, and never buying a headband of anything but Wisdom, or else he may not get the spells of a certain level on time. The trade-off is that his STR or DEX or whatever will be higher to start with, and that's fine if you want to make that trade. But some folks can't be sure they'll have access to a headband of Wisdom early enough, and maybe they don't want to cut it so close.
I definitely agree that a spellcaster shouldn't just crank up his casting stat until the needle pegs and think that his work is done. But a higher stat will still provide more benefits, and more options, that should be considered when it's time to assign stats.
That's what I was afraid of. No help for my Life Oracle. Lame. Thanks, though.Honestly a caster cleric can be as dangerous as a arcanist, if you pick the right domains
Lame? No not at all. You picked one of the best healing/buffing class options in the game. It's not supposed to be a damage dealer. You could have picked Flames for example.
* of course if you picked the "lame" curse, then, yes, it is lame. <g>
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But some folks can't be sure they'll have access to a headband of Wisdom early enough, and maybe they don't want to cut it so close.
You do have a point here, which I overlooked. My experience is primarily with PFS organized play, where magic item access is fairly generous. If you can't count on that, you'll want a higher starting stat. Good catch.
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12 Wisdom is a little low. i prefer 14 Wisdom as a compromise minimum. it allows you to still heavily invest in other stats without completely sacrificing your viability with opposed (saving throw based) spells. when doing point buy, 14 is one of the best deals at 5 points. i consider it a sweet spot. you can put a 14 in several stats, and bring one (or two) up to 16 by selecting the appropriate race.
(15 is the lowest stat that can keep pace using ability increases with a single-classed full caster who wants full access to every spell level at every class level without resorting to magic items)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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12 Wisdom is a little low. i prefer 14 Wisdom as a compromise minimum. it allows you to still heavily invest in other stats without completely sacrificing your viability with opposed (saving throw based) spells. when doing point buy, 14 is one of the best deals at 5 points. i consider it a sweet spot. you can put a 14 in several stats, and bring one (or two) up to 16 by selecting the appropriate race.
This is a fantastic starting point for well-rounded PCs, including casters.
My melee/caster generalist cleric, for instance, started with pre-racial stats of 14/14/13/13/12/12, which turned into 16/15/14/13/12/10 with racial modifiers.
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If ur going for the Melee Cleric then id go with 17 Cha so u can pick up the Heritage Feats for the Orc Bloodline. True its 4/10 feats but all u really need is Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike chain especially if u have a Spell Storing weapon with the inflict wounds, for fighting the living, or cure wounds, for when fighting undead. Also Crusader archetype would be best for a melee cleric for the bonus 5 feats.Do NOT take Vital Strike. Ever. For any reason. It is a terrible trap feat.
Ive taken the Vital strike feat chain on many characters. Its not a trap. If ur in a situation were u can only take 1 attack at a time or will only truly benefit from 1 attack since the target has a high ac then making 1 attack that does 2-4x the base weapon damage is great especially if u dont have a way to by pass a targets DR. Ive fought monsters and what not in the past were my fighter was only able to perform 1 attack at a time and with vital strike that greatly upped the damage.
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Having played a PFS cleric who is now level 14, I can tell you that being a pure casting cleric is absolutely viable. Crank that wisdom all the way up! In my opinion a "control" cleric is the best choice if you want to be pure caster. Things like command/murderous command, hold person, on up to greater command and beyond. Pick a domain that adds to control options.
There's a couple of things to keep in mind when playing this type of cleric. One is that you aren't a damage dealer but you may occasionally need to step forward. With medium armor proficiency and shield of faith, you'll be tougher than a lot of your allies (especially true in PFS). Second is that you need to be doing something every fight. Even if it's just having good knowledge abilities or dropping bless (or prayer, or Blessing of Fervor) if you end up fighting a mindless creature. Of course, don't overextend yourself :)
Dropping wisdom down toward casting minimums is absolutely a legitimate choice. It all depends on how you want to play the character.
Yep. Not as powerful as some folks think, but very versatile. Other than Skill monkey, one can design a cleric to fill any of the common roles.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Other than Skill monkey, one can design a cleric to fill any of the common roles.
Heh, skill monkey cleric would indeed be difficult. I guess if you went with a human and gave yourself 16 INT, and otherwise statted up as a caster cleric? And take traits for extra class skills?
Yeah, that might not be worth it, though it's a fun little idea...
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Yep. Not as powerful as some folks think, but very versatile. Other than Skill monkey, one can design a cleric to fill any of the common roles.
The Forgemaster archetype for Dwarf Cleric rewards high Int and removes any need for Cha. It also appears that it could be rather fun to play with on-the-fly buffs like Ghost Touch and the ability to be a sort of Sunder monkey with the Artifice Domain power. You need only touch that spell component pouch and watch it go poof!
That's what I was afraid of. No help for my Life Oracle. Lame. Thanks, though.Honestly a caster cleric can be as dangerous as a arcanist, if you pick the right domains
Lame? No not at all. You picked one of the best healing/buffing class options in the game. It's not supposed to be a damage dealer. You could have picked Flames for example.
* of course if you picked the "lame" curse, then, yes, it is lame. <g>
No, I'm very happy to be support/healing/buffing--that was my goal. However, I am the sort that wants to make sure I can take a meaningful action every round of a combat.
I would prefer it if this character didn't physically fight--I'd rather just use control spells and powers (when I've cast all my relevant buffs and nobody needs healing or condition removal). This is for multiple reasons--it fits the character, it saves me some stat points, and by level 6-8, I'm really not going to need to fight anymore, since I'll have many more and better spells to work with.
It's just the early levels I'm concerned with. It just seems like the best level 1 and 2 cleric spells are long term buffs or situational removal type spells.
I ended up choosing Bless and Murderous Command for my first spells, but I'm going through different scenarios in my mind and coming up with "you have to fight" in every one.
For example, normal fight against humanoids--Bless in round 1, Murderous Command in round 2...then what? I don't want to blow all my spells on one fight.
Against undead, I can channel, but what if I'm facing something else that's immune to mind affecting effects or that just has no language (animals, vermin, etc.)? My only control spell (and really, it seems like the only viable control spell on the cleric level 1 list) is useless then, so what do I do?
When I tried to play a "no fighting" Dirge Bard, I had music to rely on, and it was Carrion Crown, so I could use Disrupt Undead (via a trait) and Chill Touch.
Is there something I'm missing? What can I do other than use my longspear?