He's also saying the same thing I said. Do you even have a point to make at this juncture?
I've been saying the same thing also. apparently you sir are just fighting with someone who is saying the same thing but in a different language.
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He's also saying the same thing I said. Do you even have a point to make at this juncture?
I've been saying the same thing also. apparently you sir are just fighting with someone who is saying the same thing but in a different language.
You have specifically said that rogues should be dickass thieves. It was the entire point of your first post in this thread. Shall I quote it for you?
his rogue sounds like he's Neutral evil. but he's a rogue, that's what rogues do. They steal. STEAL. if you yourself as a GM don't like that a rogue is actually acting like a rogue in the party, then why the heck offer it to play. or at least ask him to be a GOOD rogue. steal from the rich give to the poor kinda deal.
On occasion, I will game with a player who notices I am playing a certain class, and simply cannot wrap their heads around the fact that I am not playing in the manner they believe all players must play the class.
I once played a light armored, stealthy, Shuriken throwing PC, who had nothing but Cleric levels.
Some people just don't like the idea that you can flavor mechanics anyway that suits you, but a cleric for that? How did that work out? For me I sometimes come up with my concept and then figure out what mechanics would suit it best, but I don't think I'd ever have arrived at Cleric for that one. I'm intrigued.
So a rogue steals big woop the corpse wont miss it (in all honesty looting from the dead is evil regardless imo). ever heard the talent honor amoung theives? only steal from those that have more money then you instead of those that aren't?
And btw I admit that I didn't fully read what the OP said. But some parts of it just got my attention more then others. I said my opinion and I'm sticking to it. do something to encourage the other PCs to the whole drinking and wenching to enjoy themselves with the fighter (wannabe rogue). Or just straight up kill him or w/e it is you guys keep doing to him to make him even more a douche. what ever way the DM decides it's this guys play group that's at stake. Lose out on a possible friend/player cause you guys keep singleing him out, which his characters are being a small cut from a party loot to again fake boobs and beer. Get the PCs to corner him and get the fighter to buy them each a few rounds and some boobs, and then they all have an agreement to have a side bar for money on there local tavern to eat, drink, and women all around.
Stealing from party members is not a good thing, not at all. It might break up your group.
There are ways to try to get more treasure than simply stealing it. In 3.0/3.5 I played a NG Cleric of Bahamut/Sorcerer/Red Dragon Disciple. As he got more levels in the DD class he was becoming more greedy and wanting more treasure. It was fun to roleplay out especially when there were things that he wanted that people did not want to give up.
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It would help if you actually read other people's posts.
No one has advocated killing or harming his character. Most people agree he should be told "no, you can't just steal FROM THE PARTY (this is the part you are not getting, he's not stealing from NPCs, that's not a problem. he intends to steal from his friends and companions.) because you're bored."
You have come into this thread with a half-assed argument, without actually reading anything anyone has said, either in general or to you, and you wonder why people are on your case.
The OP has already expressed his misgivings about this Andy fellow numerous times in the thread. It may not be an unbiased view, but it's the only one we have. And Andy sounds like bad news to me. So I am still strongly suggesting the OP not allow him to just try and take money off the top to go boozing and whoring.
It also sounds like Andy wants an EXORBITANT amount of extra funds compared to the rest of the party, where he could do all the boozing and whoring that he'd like on a very affordable budget that doesn't even REMOTELY harm his ability to have proper equipment, especially not to the point that he'd need to steal from his friends.
Introduce the Douchebag jar for the players and even the characters!
To quote Schmidt, "I am a clouded leopard and the rest of you are dogs".
You can do about 80 years of boozing and whoring for the cost of a +1 dagger. If he's just skimming booze/whore money, then by the time they're third level nobody would notice it anyway, or likely care.
The only thing I have learned in this thread is that if I ever played Monopoly with Dark servitude; it would be totally cool with him to steal some of his money if he ever left the table to go to the bathroom. It's just a game and all that.
The only thing I have learned in this thread is that if I ever played Monopoly with Dark servitude; it would be totally cool with him to steal some of his money if he ever left the table to go to the bathroom. It's just a game and all that.
And I'd kill you for doing cause it's just a game. Eye for an Eye, tooth for tooth, blood for blood.
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You can do about 80 years of boozing and whoring for the cost of a +1 dagger. If he's just skimming booze/whore money, then by the time they're third level nobody would notice it anyway, or likely care.
It's the principle, though. At low levels, and for people brand new to the game, this is NOT the kind of first impression they should have.
Maybe down the road, sure. But when your first impression of TTRPGs is that people's characters are dickbags to each other's characters, and you can do anything you want as long as you don't get caught, it's only going to attract people who like being/roleplaying dickbags, and repel those who don't.
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I play a whoring, boozing, gambling, serotonin junkie in a currently active campaign.
He doesn't steal from the party to pursue those habits. Whoring, boozing and gambling does not inevitably lead to stealing from your friends. So the whoring, boozing and gambling is not relevant to the central issue of being a backstabbing, untrustworthy, rat bastard thief.
it's just a game bro.It's a social event where people gather to get together and have fun. People who pursue their own selfish desires at the expense of other people in any social gathering are engaging in impolite behavior. Whether it's a dinner party or "just a game bro".Common dinner party games where players backstab each other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_(game)
(or any steve jackson game, really)
And none of those are Pathfinder. What point were you trying to make here?
As I say, it's clear from the description that Alex is not doing this to "fulfill his own selfish desires," since his character isn't actually gaining anything from his acts. He's spending the ill gotten virtual gains on virtual booze and virtual women.
His character is wasting their money that the other characters could have used on something useful.
That's clear roleplaying.
You seem to think "roleplaying" and "being a douchebag" are mutually exclusive. They're not.
I think you guys are the ones being the jerks here, to automatically throw Alex in the "Griefer" bucket. There is an ENORMOUS difference between skimming a few gold off the top of a kill so you can throw it at roleplaying, and Pearce tormenting Fat Neal on Community.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX2UEWvTX-Y
Cool.
So it's okay if I come to your house and steal your change jar right?
After all, it's not THAT bad so you can't get mad that I stole your stuff, right?
Letting it play out in-game solves everything. As it usually does, honestly.@beej67:
Maybe I missed something, but what, or who are you defending?
But it doesn't. Even in normal games people get mad and frustrated at a$!&~$~s. In a game where you are able, even EXPECTED to have an emotional attachment? When someone starts acting like a dick, you're going to get pissed, period. "But I was just acting in character lolololololol" is the exact same thing as being a douche IRL and insulting someone and then going "But I was just kidding hehehe!"
What you need to do before the next game, is ask everyone for their perception skills, ask Andy privately for his SOH skill, and go ahead and pre-roll for the next half a dozen times Andy tries this. Sooner or later he'll get caught. Write out notes to the other players on index cards saying "what they saw," and pass those notes out as necessary based on the rolls. Alternately, SMS text them when they catch him.
In fact, once Andy sees you asking for their perception skills, he'll probably figure out what you're doing, and he might think twice before trying it.
If he thinks twice before trying to steal because he thinks he might get caught, then he knows he's being a douche. You're not helping your case here.
Doing not only the SOH secretly, but the perception secretly, will give the other PCs the option to discuss what to do about Andy behind his back without an immediate combat confrontation arising. Even, in point of fact, murdering Andy's PC in his sleep. Or manacling his PC and dropping him off in jail. Whatever.Allow in-game consequences to punish in-game actions.
Or, allow out of game consequences to discuss an out of game decision.
All that will work itself out once they catch him. He's a fighter for cripes sake, he's going to get caught. And when the Four catch him, they're highly likely to eliminate his PC from the party in some form or fashion. Then Andy is going to have to roll up a new character, which isn't a bad idea anyway since half his problem is probably that fighters are boring and he doesn't have a strong character concept. Then his new PC has to try to join the group. Given their previous experiences, they'll probably cast Detect Chaos on his new PC, and if he tests positive they won't let him in the group. Then he's got to make another character if he wants to keep playing, one that won't steal by rule. (alignment)
And you keep proving my point. If he gets caught and they kill him for it, THAT MEANS THEY DIDN'T LIKE WHAT HE WAS DOING.
This all shakes out in the in-play dynamic, if you allow the in-play dynamic to take its course and you do so fairly to all parties.
Or you could nip it in the bud before it becomes a problem by handling things OOC.
...but everyone's so fixated on accusing Andy of being a terrible person that they haven't thought about how the scenario is almost assuredly going to unfold. I'd say EbolaZa1re has got a much greater chance of ticking someone off by GM Intervention than he does by simply doing his best to adjudicate the situation and allow it to come to completion.
GM complicity with another player's bullshit is always more likely to cause a problem than him being forthright with everyone else.
Are the characters forgiving? Wrathful? Do they disagree about how to handle the theft? Would my character be more forgiving of theft than I the player am? Less? I have this "alignment" written down on my sheet, does that inform how this character would act in this situation, as it's not the same as my personal views?These sorts of things are what makes roleplaying interesting. These sorts of interactions are what Pathfinder has over Warhammer or MMOs. If all you're doing is playing this game as a strategy board game, there are much better games to play. The point of this game is to interact as a character instead of yourself, and in so doing learn about that character as he/she develops in front of you. That kind of experience is fun, and fantastic, and is the whole reason to do true RPGs instead of stuff from Games Workshop or Blizzard.
And what kind of character would tolerate being stolen from or cheated out of his gold or items? The only one I could think of is a character who doesn't care about possessions in the first place, in which case why is he getting a cut of the loot at all?
It doesn't matter if you're Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic, you're going to be pissed of at the guy for stealing from you either because it breaks the Law/your personal code of honor, messes with you specifically, or infringes on your personal rights.
It doesn't matter if you're Good or Evil, since you're going to be pissed off either because he was stealing from you and that's wrong, or because you're EVIL and you can't let a sleight like this pass as a hit to your ego.
So a rogue steals big woop the corpse wont miss it (in all honesty looting from the dead is evil regardless imo). ever heard the talent honor amoung theives? only steal from those that have more money then you instead of those that aren't?
"Honor among thieves" is not "Be Robin Hood" that code of honor is exactly what we're discussing right now, which is "Don't steal from your friends."
If your character is a whoring, drunken lout... that's cool. It even sounds kind of entertaining, if you really dedicate your character's development to those vices.
But, you pay your own way, out of your own share.
Asking for more than an equitable divide... is unreasonable.
Common dinner party games where players backstab each other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_(game)
(or any steve jackson game, really)
Those are all games where a large part of the premise is players stabbing each other in the back. Last I checked, Pathfinder was, at its core, a cooperative game, and doesn't put itself forth as a player-versus-player game.
People walk into those games knowing, and EXPECTING, player-versus-player trickery. Most people walk into Pathfinder expecting something different.
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I have to add my voice to the chorus saying "ask the group first". As a player, I'd be fine with this. Party member pilfers a little gold, someone catches him, nobody trusts him until he proves himself, all good fun.
But tell me first. Because if I know what you're doing, than you're lying to my character, and stealing from my character, and that's fine. But if you don't tell me, than you're lying to me and stealing from me, and that's not cool.
Absolutely this. This is the whole point I've been trying to make, all along.
Andy may not need a kick in the pants, but he certainly needs to be made aware of the social contracts that are in place at a gaming group table.
I never said be robin hood. I pointed out the talent. That's all. Rogues are for recon, spying, looting, and uber fun stuff. I Still don't see why it has to be mad a BIG DEAL when there are ways to NOT MAKE IT A BIG DEAL.
the best way to learn a persons play style is the first few sessions anyways. shouldn't have to punish him for being a more rogue person then the tradition fighter. he's actually role playing it ffs. what about the other players? are they just pencil pushing? then why should they give to shits for booze and boobs when they themselves can be IC enjoying these things with the fighter. Hey a possible solution! there many ways to get this finalized. but wouldn't you, as a DM, want the most peaceful one but still have a reaction to the out come of all this.
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Again, you haven't read the OP so you don't even know what you're arguing.
Andy is a Fighter. Andy, after a couple sessions, has decided that being a Fighter is boring, so his solution is "I want to steal from the rest of the characters and receive a bigger share than I am due, because I am bored."
THIS IS BAD, FULL STOP.
To paraphrase what I said erlier: It MAY be ok for one pc to cheat on the other pcs IF the players are ok with it. But it is never ok if one player (with the help of the GM)cheats on the other players.
DING DING DING!
We have a winner!You're being set up. This is a trap.
I'm guessing Andy is the old 2nd Ed. Player? Or is he A newbie?
If it's the latter, this is him not getting what the game is, PVP, while long established is a very different sub-genre of RPGs. One that everyone needs to be aware that they are potentially participating in. The CORE game and it's mechanics don't actually facilitate this type of play. It makes the GM's job much harder. You can hit him with STD checks and local law enforcement as a" get on track " technique but that's playing to HIS game, him vs. everyone.
If it's the former, and he is a veteran of old school Rpg games, he knows that this will end poorly. He has seen it before. It may have been a case of being mistrained in his neophyte games but I doubt it. The old game actually had rules to handle this sort of stuff, but they weren't great.
In this he is taking advantage of your inexperience. This scenario is what makes or breaks groups. Not everyone want to be on CBS's Survivor. But everyone on that show knows what's going on. They know the rules. You've got potentially 70% of your table that doesn't know what game they're playing. Can't end well.
On the upside, it doesn't sound like he wants the money for more gear. Which is just candy asssed whiner gaming.
I'd let him swipe stuff, make him roll a d20, when someone(else) asks why, make him explain it. If they want to counter roll, they now have that option.
I don't ascribe to the school of thought where the DM is playing against the group. It's a component of the job but a minor one. Yet a DM who is in collusion with one person against the group without freely offering that option to everyone else is not only in an adversarial position but FAILING to do his basic job. Referee & Judge.
Again, you haven't read the OP so you don't even know what you're arguing.
Andy is a Fighter. Andy, after a couple sessions, has decided that being a Fighter is boring, so his solution is "I want to steal from the rest of the characters and receive a bigger share than I am due, because I am bored."
THIS IS BAD, FULL STOP.
I said fighter? Also I was pointing out my opinion on rogues but apparently that was a wif. W/e you're obviously now just trying to pick fights but w/e don't care for one. Two been saying fighter since I found it he's a fighter. Three, I've been pretty level heading about this and still am.
So let him make a new character if he is bored or until it actually dies. and Again a few gold being taken for booze and boobs seems like a fun RP situation that I would like to try having a conversation in. And still don't even know the amount of gold being taken for his booze and boob fetish. for all we know it could be 10 gp or some copper or silver.
and if this was said in the beginning, then it's more of every ones fault.
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I have a table where I reward them for creativity. For instance, there is a paladin who was born on the street and has the impulsion to steal. I gave him a bonus to bluff but each time he steals there is a cumulative 5% chance that he loses all of his paladin abilities for an hour in-game. Did I mention he is a halfling?
But the entire point of the Paladin is that they are not allowed to lie or steal or they fall.
And there is no mitigating circumstance here that makes it valid, he's not acting out his Lawful Good alignment whatsoever.
That's not "being creative" that's "Breaking the rules".
Going back to the OP's question, I would quietly check with the other players, telling them "Someone wants to pull some minor shenanigans that could cause friction between the PCs. Do you mind if I allow that to happen?" I wouldn't be more specific than that, but would find out whether the group sees it as interesting interpersonal roleplaying or as a serious potential problem. If any of the other players seemed opposed, I would veto the "stealing from the party" idea and try to find other ways to sate his appetite for excitement.
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Again, you haven't read the OP so you don't even know what you're arguing.
Andy is a Fighter. Andy, after a couple sessions, has decided that being a Fighter is boring, so his solution is "I want to steal from the rest of the characters and receive a bigger share than I am due, because I am bored."
THIS IS BAD, FULL STOP.
I said fighter? Also I was pointing out my opinion on rogues but apparently that was a wif. W/e you're obviously now just trying to pick fights but w/e don't care for one. Two been saying fighter since I found it he's a fighter. Three, I've been pretty level heading about this and still am.
So let him make a new character if he is bored or until it actually dies. and Again a few gold being taken for booze and boobs seems like a fun RP situation that I would like to try having a conversation in. And still don't even know the amount of gold being taken for his booze and boob fetish. for all we know it could be 10 gp or some copper or silver.
and if this was said in the beginning, then it's more of every ones fault.
Andy hasn't done ANY of this yet because, at the very least, he came to talk to the DM about it before just straight doing it. But from the DM's own words, he want a significant amount more than the other players that he has NOT EARNED because he is BORED. It would be the epitome of a bad freakin' idea to let him do so.
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RotRL went well and everyone, for the most part, enjoyed the game.
One player, however, expressed some boredom throughout the game, he tussled with town guards, spent his 'downtime' in the brothel, gambled and was rude to NPCs. Not a big deal to me since they're NPCs. I didn't pick up on any incredible frustration from the other PCs, so I didn't do much to stop it.The whole group works at the same place, so I was approached by our bored player, we will call him Andy. Andy said he's upset that gold is split 5 ways and wants a higher cut of the loot.
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Andy wants to be able to earn more than everyone else, when I asked why, he simply said so he can buy more women and gamble.
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See? He wants more than his fair share for no good reason. Not acceptable, because unless he is doing more than his fair share of work, he doesn't deserve more than his fair share of loot.
I admit to skimming through the thread. Just going to go straight to my advice:
Tell Andy you're telling the other players because the players need to know that this is happening because it is unfair, and then tell the other players. Tell them you're sorry you didn't tell them earlier because you were afraid of metagaming, that they need to be okay with this, and if they're not okay with the situation, it will stop immediately.
In one scenario I can imagine this resulting in, the players and Andy work out the situation and come to an amicable agreement. This can certainly include the players agreeing to Andy sleight of handing more gold, as long as they are allowed to react appropriately in character if they ever do catch him.
In the second scenario I can imagine this resulting in, Andy throws a hissyfit and leaves your campaign.
So, in other words, win-win situation.
Go for it.
I'ma answer your off topic thing first for shits and giggles, yes.
What if he was gonna use that money for his fellow party memebers? The DM should just pull him aside then to get more of an answer out of him then For some booze and boobs.
So what if he wants more gold? Who doesn't. Give his character some in game goals to get that extra money.
And there are already rules for getting extra dosh (he can even use his Sleight of Hand check to pickpocket random schmoes wherever they are). He doesn't need to steal from the party to get his money.
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I'ma answer your off topic thing first for s*&#s and giggles, yes.
What if he was gonna use that money for his fellow party memebers? The DM should just pull him aside then to get more of an answer out of him then For some booze and boobs.
So what if he wants more gold? Who doesn't. Give his character some in game goals to get that extra money.
He doesn't, though. He specifically wants the extra gold to supposedly blow on booze and women. He has no intention of helping the party with it, and doesn't even seem to want to actually be with the party at all.
He has every right to want gold, but not at the expense of his party members, ESPECIALLY if they aren't okay with it. If they ARE okay with it, then it's fine to do the roll sleight of hand vs. perception idea, but that also doesn't change the fact that NOT STEALING FROM HIS PARTY MEMBERS AT ALL would be the optimal solution.
He doesn't, though. He specifically wants the extra gold to supposedly blow on booze and women. He has no intention of helping the party with it, and doesn't even seem to want to actually be with the party at all.
Do you have more knowledge of this person? If so you should share it with the rest of us lowly forum scrubs. If that's what he wants to do that's what he wants to do. As a GM you should open up a game with guide lines. If it was gonna be a problem from the start then why offer it.
He has every right to want gold, but not at the expense of his party members, ESPECIALLY if they aren't okay with it. If they ARE okay with it, then it's fine to do the roll sleight of hand vs. perception idea, but that also doesn't change the fact that NOT STEALING FROM HIS PARTY MEMBERS AT ALL would be the optimal solution.
Did you see me say "Oh you should totally steal from the party" in any of my statements? No. Do I support theft from a party loot? I have mixed feeling about it depending on the party make up and what it's for.
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He doesn't, though. He specifically wants the extra gold to supposedly blow on booze and women. He has no intention of helping the party with it, and doesn't even seem to want to actually be with the party at all.
Do you have more knowledge of this person? If so you should share it with the rest of us lowly forum scrubs. If that's what he wants to do that's what he wants to do. As a GM you should open up a game with guide lines. If it was gonna be a problem from the start then why offer it.
He has every right to want gold, but not at the expense of his party members, ESPECIALLY if they aren't okay with it. If they ARE okay with it, then it's fine to do the roll sleight of hand vs. perception idea, but that also doesn't change the fact that NOT STEALING FROM HIS PARTY MEMBERS AT ALL would be the optimal solution.Did you see me say "Oh you should totally steal from the party" in any of my statements? No. Do I support theft from a party loot? I have mixed feeling about it depending on the party make up.
At no point did the DM say that stealing from the party was an option. Andy brought it up to the DM all on his own. The OP decided that instead of just outright saying no, as he very easily could have, he decided to try and say "no, but..." and keep Andy invested and entertained in the campaign.
But this is not the best way to solve this problem, as the rest of the party is unlikely to be unanimously okay with him just taking more than his fair share then he deserves for whatever reason, whether it be getting drunk and laid, or building a damn temple to Lamashtu, without their consent.
Again, if you hop halfway into an argument without understanding the concept (read the damn OP, at least!) you're going to come off sounding foolish.
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So a rogue steals big woop the corpse wont miss it
The corpse won't, but the party might. It is generally assumed that when you enter a dungeon, the loot you find on defeated monsters or in their lairs belongs to the group until it has been divided. As soon as the party kills an orc as a group, the 5 gold in its pocket is part of the group take.
It's like if you and your four friends work as waiters/waitresses and agree to split your tips evenly, and when it comes time to throw all the tip money into a pot for division you hold back $1 from every tip earned. You already agreed that that was shared money, so you're cheating the group.
This whole thing reminds me of the thread about whether crafters must provide half cost items to the rest of the party, and whether or not they can "skim" 5% via Hedge Magician. As you can guess, I fell on the side of "sure." Others were vehement that even charging another PC 50% to craft was evil if it cost you 45%. I just don't understand that line of thought, and this seems like the same mentality dressed up in different clothes.
That's an entirely different situation. A party is free to negotiate whether people with crafting or professional skills will use those to benefit other party members in their downtime, and whether there will be a fee attached. To continue the above metaphor, the item situation is more like if one of those waiter friends also works as a photographer and the rest of the group asks for a photo shoot. It's nice to do something for friends at cost or at a discount, but the fact that they're splitting tips doesn't obligate him to split everything else.
"I've been thinking about allowing players to interact with each other directly, including potentially allowing characters to intimidate each other, bluff each other, steal from each other, even attack each other if sufficient provocation exists. What do you guys think about that?"That's a reasonable approach, and in my opinion vastly preferable to telling all the other players that Andy's PC is stealing but they can't act on that knowledge unless they make a check, as some others have indicated above. But please note that Andy hasn't suggested doing anything you've listed there. He's suggested skimming from kills before the divy. That's not black and white at all like you make it out to be.
As I mentioned above, skimming from kills before the divvy is still stealing because the group is trusting its members to gather that loot for the divvy and thus the skimmer is cheating.
I like Adamantine Dragon's method, since it makes sure that the party is OK with the general concept of PvP without giving too much away about the specifics. If the group isn't OK with PvP in general then the thief can be shut down, but if they are OK with it they can go ahead and enjoy the eventual roleplay (and the specifics will still be a surprise).
I have had positive experiences with serious PC conflict, but they all had a few things in common, and the big one is that I was prepared for and agreed to the possibility of conflict occurring. One incident even started with a fellow player saying "X and I are going to yell at you IC this session because of what happened last session, don't take it personally." So I didn't take it personally, and I enjoyed myself. If I hadn't had that warning, it might have triggered my personal defense mechanisms and I might have felt under attack OOC as well.
Andy wants to be able to earn more than everyone else, when I asked why, he simply said so he can buy more women and gamble. Lame reasoning to me, but, it's all about the players having fun IMO.
Have his character contract an STD. Then watch the fun as he tries to get money from the party for a cure or explain his need for a cure to the party cleric. :-D
On a more serious note, I agree with the first response you got from Seranov. Players being sneaky behind the backs of other players rarely turns out well.
Tell him sure he can attempt to steal from the party, but if he is caught the first offense is loss of a hand next is a hanging. My groups do not allow treasure to be absconded from them by party members. And yes, it was the LG Cleric that lit the PVP lamp on the rogue three campaigns ago! No one shed a tear when his character was killed by a face stealer while he was whoring around on watch.
Tell him sure he can attempt to steal from the party, but if he is caught the first offense is loss of a hand next is a hanging. My groups do not allow treasure to be absconded from them by party members. And yes, it was the LG Cleric that lit the PVP lamp on the rogue three campaigns ago! No one shed a tear when his character was killed by a face stealer while he was whoring around on watch.
Tell us more!
Oy, this topic is definitely extensive.
Someone asked if Andy is the 'experienced' player; he is not.
The two experienced players are hubby and wife. They have invested a lot of time in developing their characters, drawing portraits, detailed back stories, etc.
Personally, I thoroughly enjoy character development. It's the minor details that make a game fun, because of this, I tend to bias toward them because it's what thrills me.
However, most of my experience is from LARP via Vampire: The Masquerade/Requiem.
In these games, PCs are never your allies. If you're not being back-stabbed, it's because you're currently back-stabbing someone else.
The fact that Andy simply wants to spend his money on booze and boobs I think is the biggest red flag. I see no benefit to spending fake gold on fake boobs, because there is nothing statistically beneficial to it. This leads me to believe he is simply skimming off the top to create tension.
Again, I say skimming off the top. I told him he would need appraise to take anything more than coin, he showed no interest.
When he approached me, I explained how it could be done. After our conversation, I began contemplating how other players may feel about it. I definitely sensed a 'purely co-op' environment and would rather uphold that vibe than let a single player do what he wants at the expense of that cozy feeling. Which is what brought me to find the perspective of others.
As I said earlier, I don't know this group too terribly well. I am mostly concerned with Hubby and Wife. Concerned that they'll feel their vested time is wasted because this seemingly friendly game took a turn for the worse.
I will admit that I made the mistake of not addressing this sort of thing prior to the campaign starting, namely because I didn't think it would come up.
Now that we've started, I'm incredibly hesitant to allow it because it was never discussed initially.
However, lesson learned, I'm creating a 'house rules introduction thing' and at least bringing this up.
In my perfect world, what beej67 is suggesting is exactly how I would execute.
But again, I did not mention this type of behavior being possible, therefore I'm not sure players are prepared for it mentally.
Just before writing this response, I sent an email to each person individually (except Andy, 'cos I know how he stands), asking how they would feel about allowing some adverse player on player actions.
Waiting on responses.
Finally, my stance on character relations. I think if the option is available, it needs to be mentioned before game. Then as long as everyone is at least made aware and the GM executes fairly; then anything goes.
I would then try to craft history with the other players, so I can get a feel for where we stand.
Regardless, I just love playing the damn game and can meld into any type of environment... anyone looking for a player? =D
Edit: Present tense, not past.
In another thread someone posted something relevant to this discussion. It went something like this:
"Why are you choosing to be a dick?"
"Au contraire! I'm not being a dick, my CHARACTER is being a dick."
"Choosing to play a character that is a dick is being a dick."
This is only true when a fellow player thinks you're being a dick. I can recount multiple instances when I was quite amused by another PCs antics while my character was extremely annoyed.
That said, I don't think stealing from other PCs is funny and it's likely to get the character booted from the party which is something no one wants.
Of course, I charge PCs for crafting, so what do I know?
I hope everything goes well for you, man.
Greatly appreciated!
I also want to extend my unending gratitude to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I feel it has been eye opening. I've learned a lot and am almost surprised how strongly so many feel about pvp on a ttrpg.
Thanks again!
One last request, does anyone have an example 'intro to my house rules' type of document I can mooch?
Or a 'list of things all DMs need to know' type thing?
No sense reinventing the wheel if someone already has the thing mastered.
Cheers!
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't think there's anything crazy about having the one party member who tries to pocket a little extra gold. I think it's a time honored thing, honestly. Now I think it's weird that the player approached the DM about wanting more money, but if as a DM my player passed me a note saying he tried to steal a little extra cash, I'd allow it.
The issue with "skimming off the top" or "pocketing a little extra gold" is that it is stealing from the rest of the party.
Let's say a group of four friends starts a business making toys and after a while three of them discover that the fourth has been "pocketing a little extra cash".
The result of that discovery would likely result in at the very least a confrontation and removal of the thief from the business. In most cases it would involve legal action, both of the civil and criminal variety. In the end it would destroy friendships and potentially wreck families.
"Oh, but this is just a game" you say. Fine. But it's a ROLE PLAYING game, which means that in game the player characters should react just as harshly, probably even more harshly since in THIS business, the characters are literally risking their lives to make the gold that the thief has been stealing. So beyond kicking out the thief, it might well be considered reasonable to execute the offending character. After all, you hang horse thieves.
Sounds like good fun doesn't it? Lots of rich role playing material there.
Except lots of people don't want to role play that sort of violent confrontation between supposed friends. Some people might find role playing such a situation extremely stressful and unpleasant. If the situation goes to mortal combat, someone might lose a character they have spent months building and enjoying, all because someone wanted to "skim a little off the top".
To assert that "it's all in fun" is simply to demonstrate a lack of awareness of how emotionally invested some players get with their characters and the other characters in their group. And to put people in the position of either having to accept behavior they find deplorable, or else engage in confrontation they find to be stressful is an imposition that goes beyond common bounds of decency.
And that's not even addressing the many, many players who have difficulty separating their own emotions and reactions from those of their character, and who will take such things personally in real life.
So yeah, risk all of that so you "can have a little fun." Go ahead. It's just a game. So what if you ruined one of someone's few outlets to deal with the stress of their life and have some fun with their friends. At least you got to grab "a little extra" imaginary gold to spend on imaginary booze and boobs.
Way to go man. High five.
. . . Way to go man. High five.
I'm not sure who this is directed at, but it is not necessary.
I understand the emotional investment in characters. I've been there, I've done that.
For this very reason, I never, ever, refer to the player when something is happening to their character. I will never say, "You find xyz". It's always, "Your character finds xyz", "Your character sees abc".
All in an effort to remind the player, although subtly, that they are not their character.
I highly recommend you never get involved in any Minds Eye Society game.
'Etiquette' involves informing a player that their character is going to be killed in the near future.
But somehow, at the end of the night, everyone manages to meet at a mutual location and imbibe unnecessary amounts of alcohol and reminisce on the evenings events.
Anyone who takes it personally, simply doesn't stick around for long. They do manage to make a few friends in the process and rarely do they fall out of touch.
I fathom that this is simply a figure of what culture we've been molded from.
I'll try to analogize: Someone born in a third world country is likely to recognize poverty as a common occurrence and oppression as something they're born into, her oppressors being born into their position as well.
However, in the US of A, we are all aware of the choices that every single person has and the freedoms everyone deserves.
Somewhat similar is our predicament. Where character on character confrontation is the norm for one, while the other expects rational and pleasant human behavior.
Finally, let me emphasize that I completely understand where you're coming from, Adamantine. Which is why I posted this discussion in the first place. With such a large majority showing disapproval of the scenario all together has led me to decide that I ought to bring the possibility to the players before springing such scandals on the characters.
If any have the smallest inkling of doubt about allowing such antics, then the act will be out of the question. I will deem the group as not ready for such activity.
Although my experience is on and off over the past 10 years, I still have enough sense to recognize the pros of full-disclosure.
Cheers,
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Nothing personal, man, but that's pretty much the big reason I'd never ever get involved with LARPing.
It's one thing to say the dude in my head who I have written down on a character sheet and is a badass dragonslayer is not me, but when it's me waving a foam stick around and getting my ass kicked, it's hard to say the same.
Diff'rent strokes and all that, though.
The only thing I have learned in this thread is that if I ever played Monopoly with Dark servitude; it would be totally cool with him to steal some of his money if he ever left the table to go to the bathroom. It's just a game and all that.And I'd kill you for doing cause it's just a game. Eye for an Eye, tooth for tooth, blood for blood.
Holy crap, people are advocating for the murder of other players on this thread? Whoa.
Also wouldn't eye for an eye mean you would steal fake money from me? I am pretty sure that fake money != someone's real life.
Ebolazaire, I only posted that last message because I got a little tired of the casual attitude expressed by some in this thread that stealing from the party is all in good fun and just part of the game.
That's only true for a subset of gamers, and my experience has been that the percentage of that subset is getting smaller as the game expands into new demographics.
If the situation to allow PvP or stealing from the party or overt inter-party sexual behavior or any of a wide variety of potentially troublesome game behavior is discussed and agreed to by all parties up front, then fine.
But to suggest that "it's all in good fun" to spring such things on people who do not want to participate, find it offensive or stressful or who simply think it's not what they want to spend their hobby time doing is something I feel needs to be rebutted.
It's not OK to steal from the party if the players have not expressly agreed to it. The risk of hurt feelings, personal affront, feelings of intimidation or outright angry confrontation is simply not worth the minimal supposed role playing gain. And to put that risk on the gaming table just because one player is "bored" or feels entitled to an unfair share of the loot is, seriously, beyond the pale.
Set the expectations clearly and anything goes. Spring situations on players out of the blue that are known to be controversial, and that's just being a richard.
Nothing personal, man, but that's pretty much the big reason I'd never ever get involved with LARPing.
You ain't kidding. If I wanted backstabbing and unnecessary drama, I'd hang out in the break room at the office. I game to escape that kind of bilge, not wallow in it.
And to put that risk on the gaming table just because one player is "bored" or feels entitled to an unfair share of the loot is, seriously, beyond the pale.
That's pretty much it. He's being a knob because he's bored.
Let him enjoy the in-game fun of being tarred and feathered as a result of his actions, or having to play a character who's had his hand lopped off and face branded for being a thief. After all, its just good fun.
The only thing I have learned in this thread is that if I ever played Monopoly with Dark servitude; it would be totally cool with him to steal some of his money if he ever left the table to go to the bathroom. It's just a game and all that.And I'd kill you for doing cause it's just a game. Eye for an Eye, tooth for tooth, blood for blood.Holy crap, people are advocating for the murder of other players on this thread? Whoa.
Also wouldn't eye for an eye mean you would steal fake money from me? I am pretty sure that fake money != someone's real life.
Not the players, their characters. I don't think anyone is advocating capital punishment for being a dick in a game!
Someone asked about the rogue in my game that died. The party ran across what they thought was a female human on the upper levels of a dungeon and they "freed" her. The rogue snuck off with her in the middle of the night to another room. Needless to say she didn't have to make an opposed grapple check to "embrace" him and he failed his save. She took his face and his life. As for lighting PVP, on one of the earliest enounters the party was involved in a battle and the rogue thought of nothing else but saving his own skin and hid the entire battle. Needless to say the Cleric called him ought for being a coward and knocked him down half his hit points. And no she wasn't about to heal him!
