Greetings.
First time reader, long time poster. Seeking some advice for a Pathfinder Adventure Path I'm running for a mish-mash of players.
There are 5 players, 3 of which are brand new, one played AD&D in college some years ago and the last hasn't played until recently, but reads all the books for fun.
I am much more of a player than a DM or ST, but I've played more consistently than anyone in my group. However, my experience is mainly from the World of Darkness games, Vampire the Masquerade/Requiem, Werewolf, etc.
We just finished an fairly hardcore 10 hour session of Rise of the Runelords on Saturday.
This is our third gaming session, the first two sessions were one-shot adventures I made up. Typical save the princess type thing.
RotRL went well and everyone, for the most part, enjoyed the game.
One player, however, expressed some boredom throughout the game, he tussled with town guards, spent his 'downtime' in the brothel, gambled and was rude to NPCs. Not a big deal to me since they're NPCs. I didn't pick up on any incredible frustration from the other PCs, so I didn't do much to stop it.
The whole group works at the same place, so I was approached by our bored player, we will call him Andy. Andy said he's upset that gold is split 5 ways and wants a higher cut of the loot.
Right now, I simply read off what players find and they have a little auction and give out who needs vs. who wants then evenly divide the coin.
Andy wants to be able to earn more than everyone else, when I asked why, he simply said so he can buy more women and gamble. Lame reasoning to me, but, it's all about the players having fun IMO.
I informed him of this option (which I made up on the fly, this might not even be the best system).
Right before I announce giving out loot, he could wink and smile at me or whatever to indicate he wants to try to pocket more coin. I would then announce for everyone to roll perception checks. Which everyone does, except for Andy, he rolls a sleight of hand. If his SoH is higher than everyone's Perception, then no one notices anything. I read the amount of gold a few coins fewer, and Andy gets his higher cut later when I tell him.
However, if someone rolls higher than him, they're going to notice something fishy.
My fear is the social aspect of the game, am I potentially ruining a joyful/blissful experience for our little clique, or am I incorporating a realism of the game? You can't trust everyone.
TL;DR
One player wants to start stealing treasure from the group, should I let him and potentially ruin the trusting/happy nature of the group? Or should I say no and force him to continue being bored with his hack/slash fighter?
Any words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.
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Yeah, no.
This is going to end up horribly no matter what happens. He should NOT be asking YOU about this, but the rest of the party. If they're cool with it, then it'd be a fantastic RP thing, but suddenly springing on the party "oh, by the way, this guy you thought you could trust has been stealing s&+@ from you all along" will only end awfully.
Sharing treasure should be something solved in-party. If a PC wants to try steal from others it should solved through roleplaying, including dice rolling, unless your group is composed of ten years old who still lack necessary social skills to distance themselves from the actions of their characters.
Of course, the important part is that you know your players better than us. Some players won't mind another player playing a thief who will steal from the party, some will be annoyed with this and some will be enraged. It's really hard to tell without knowing them well.
I generally don't have a problem with a player trying to loot a little extra on the side, pocketing a little extra from a hoard, whatever. But if he gets caught, the other PCs get to do whatever they feel like to him I won't defend him. And believe me, they all eventually get caught.
I also usually have them pass me notes on anything secretive they want to do rather than use signals which typically get missed.
Ultimately, you can't force him to being the bored hack and slash fighter. That's all on him. He can either get engaged and stop trying to derail the game or he can hit the bricks if he gets too disruptive.
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Here's the key bit for me:
Andy said he's upset that gold is split 5 ways and wants a higher cut of the loot.
I think that's pretty much your indication right there that you're going to have problems with this character at least, and quite possible with this player.
My response to his request would be "I don't divvy up loot, the party does that, so go talk to the other players. If they are OK with you getting a bigger share, it's no skin off my nose."
My guess is his response would be along the lines of "But I don't want them to KNOW."
And my response to that would be: "I don't run campaigns where one party member steals from other party members. If you want to do that, find yourself another GM."
Because I really don't want to. I've done it. It almost always sucks and ends up with harsh words and hurt feelings. And that's not what I play the game for.
But play it how you like.
it could be done but id reccomend against it because you may end up with a pvp situation and if he wants to buy and gamble more have him just roll for lower prices or just flat out charm someone into bed. and for gambeling have him roll to cheat who hes playing.
Ex my party had a bard that would charm people into paying her for sex with different skill rolls. find the rich guy and find out what hes willing to pay then agree or walk away.
also had a rogue at one point that if he lost at gambeling he would go pickpocket the guy that beat him.
but what your player wants to do seems wrong to me and if i had a member of my group pulling that s@@& id roll a pali to get on his case and cock block him at every turn.
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Axes do x3 damage on a critical.
just let him roll his sleight of hand like a day job roll in PFS, but oppose it with a take 10 perception with people with randomly assigned bonuses. If they beat it he winds up in the clink
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The thread title should be "Avoid definitely upsetting 4 players or Refusing to take a bunch of Baby Ass B+#+&$&% from 1?"
The way I see it, there's a BIG difference between one character stealing loot from the other characters without their knowledge and consent, and one player taking resources from other players without their knowledge and consent.
It's fine for one character to conspire against other characters. It's a time-honored tradition, in my opinion.
However, concealing stuff from other players depends MUCH more on your game group. Some groups love that crap, and love being surprised by traitors in their midst, private schemes, etc. Other groups still love that stuff, but want it all above board. Their characters might be duped, fooled, or ignorant, but let the players know about it. Others just hate it totally.
I would personally poll the whole group in a very generic fashion.
"If a party member is concealing activities from the party, would you prefer that information be concealed from the PLAYERS as a whole, or revealed to the PLAYERS as a whole (and if revealed, do you agree to maintain the distinction between IC and OOC knowledge?"
That way, it doesn't single out this one player (or character), and also gives every player (and character) the opportunity to behave equally. After all, if one character is stealing stuff secretly, then another character might be marking coins secretly, too!
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I again point out the key comment in the original post.
The OP stated that the player "is upset" that his character can't have more loot.
Not that he wants to play a character that is a sneaky little rat bastard, but that the PLAYER is UPSET about this.
Maybe I am being too literal here, but if that is an accurate characterization, I personally doubt that dude would be at my table very long. Life is too short.
My response,
"If you want a bigger cut of the loot you need to sort that out with the party. I don't think they will go along with it, but I wont stop you from trying."
Also, does he really need much money at low level to gamble and spend on visits to the brothel? In a town like Sandpoint a few gp would go a long way. Sounds to be like he might just be setting things up to justify getting a bigger share of the pie later on. Plus my immediate reaction to the OP is that the player is going to be an ongoing problem. What is the next thing he is going to try to convince you to let him do?
First off, this Andy character sounds like a dick.
Second, cease the skimming off the top. Once the other players find out (and it's inevitable) they will be mightily peeved, and justifiably so.
Third, tell Andy if he wants to up his GP take, learn to economize. Suggest a Ring of Sustenance, he won't have to pay for food anymore, and invest in a extradimensional holding item, like a Portable Hole, Handy Haversack, or Bag of Holding. He can haul off random dungeon dressing and sell it.
Fourth, try some nasty dungeon crawls, go check out those Dungeon Crawl Classics, and update them with the Gamemastery Guide and the 3 Bestiaries. Guaranteed to send your players through a wringer.
No. Don;t let him do this. First of all, he's being a Richard. OOC and IC.
Next of all, he's taking advantage of the other PLAYERs inexperience, and also your inexperience as a DM.
Stealing from the other PCs is something that simply is not accepted in a normal game. Mind you, there's plenty of games where everyone knows it's Ok and it's accepted, but if so everyone has to agree. One person can't agree while the rest don't even know there's a vote going on. This is super unfair to other players, especially if they are newbies.
As the Dudemeister sez, there's actually rules for this- Perform or profession. He can earn pocket change doing this. He can then spend the pocket change at the local tavern.
In fact, why not just have him do that? tell him he can earn XX amount stealing, or whatever, and spend it, and report back to you how he earned it and spent it. Meanwhile the rest of the party will be off adventuring. That way they can both have fun.
In other words NO!!!!
NO!
HELL NO!
The GM should not volunteer to be an accomplice for one of the characters stealing from the party!
Since he's going to spend his extra money one wine, women, and waste, there's certainly nothing wrong with him hauling in a little extra gold. I'd give him opportunities to rob NPCs in his downtime to support his folly.
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No stealing crap. That will end horribly.
Say he is a preferred customer, and gets a discount at whorehouses.
Next, tell him to put ranks in Profession:Gambler, and occasionally allow him to make checks to make a few extra coin.
There, he gets what he says he wants.
If this does not satisfy, then he was lying about his intentions.
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The situation depends on the players; if they're all friends and won't get mad (besides in character) once they inevitably figure out what's going on, then I'd say go for it, let him play his guy that way; if you have people who are good at keeping in-character and out-of-character knowledge separate, maybe don't even hide what the roll is for. I've had fun before knowing as a player what my friend is doing in-character that could end badly for us, all the while not doing anything in-character because my guy had no clue.
This reminds me of a game I used to play in. It went for like a year and half with the rogue (who was in the thieves guild and would later become its leader, with all or at least most of us aware of this) keeping track of the loot; this seems like a bad idea obviously, but the guy who normally does loot in our other games was the rogue so we just kept it that way and never thought anything of it. After the game was over he told us that he'd been embezzling between 10-20% of the gold we'd found before we even split it, and then he'd take his share... we all found it hilarious in retrospect and all agreed we should have seen it coming given we knew what his character was >_<
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Since he's going to spend his extra money one wine, women, and waste, there's certainly nothing wrong with him hauling in a little extra gold. I'd give him opportunities to rob NPCs in his downtime to support his folly.
This. It's one thing to play a thief, it's another to steal from your party, and if you're not sure that the other players will take it in good fun it's not worth the risk of leaving everyone upset.
I used to steal loot as the party rogue... But I was also a high roller who insisted on paying for all in town partying and cost of living... I would also buy beneficial magical items for others (but really for me). Wands pearls of power, all kinds of stuff. When the party found out, there was a whole roleplay of distrust and they wanted me to get counseling.
Great fun.
I think the only way this could possibly turn out well is if everybody else in the party is stealing from the other members as well.
That way when one of them gets caught there's a little shifty-eyed glancing and then a reaming out of the one who got caught, right up until one of the others fails to keep a straight face again.
The problem is, while this is likely to end badly for the group, it's very much in the spirit of the game that players should be able to decide the actions of their PCs and the GM works out the consequences of these actions.
One option would be to tell the other players that this is happening, and have them roll to see if their characters notice. Secondly, make sure he only steals a tiny percentage. 50gp can buy a lot of partying.
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I do have to say this. Of all the boring, cheesy, silly, predictable role playing tropes, the rogue who steals from the party is the most boring, cheesiest, silliest and most predictable of all of them.
I'd never play one out of pure disgust for the sheer obviousness of the situation. I'd seriously be flat out embarrassed.
This only works if the players are aware. I played a draconic blooded sorceress that occasionally pocketed small pieces of loot when nobody was looking. She was also the person the entire party trusted to divvy up the loot and was the party face. Eventually hilarity ensued when she was finally caught. She generally only pocketed shiny things, gems, jewelery, a ring of protection or two which she later offered up as payment for a couple magic items taken as party loot. When the party druid finally noticed she offered to cut her in but it didn't work.
The druid told everyone what scale-face was up to, she confessed and turned over a few minor magic items and lot of silver and copper. At which point the party looked baffled and she finally blurted out that slept on it. Which everyone happily believed and she made up for the stolen loot by making a some magic items for them. After that they continued to trust her to handle the party treasure but every now and then someone double checked her ledger.
Everyone got a good laugh out of it and she got bonus xp for roleplaying over it.
Yeah, no.
This is going to end up horribly no matter what happens. He should NOT be asking YOU about this, but the rest of the party. If they're cool with it, then it'd be a fantastic RP thing, but suddenly springing on the party "oh, by the way, this guy you thought you could trust has been stealing s!!$ from you all along" will only end awfully.
This!
If you do it secretly it is not just a case of one pc stealing from the party but of you and one player deceiving the other players. And that can lead to hard feelings.I for my part hate that stuff and could very well stand up and leave the gaming grout forever if that would happen.
If you do it then do it openly and give the other players a chance to voice their opinion.
All is fair in love and role play. If he is caught, you need to prepare for the eventual fall out, which could be fun in and of itself.
Anything goes, but everything has consequence. If this guy is being a douche around town, let a pimp put him back in his place... Nothing like a good mugging to make things get real. If he is flashing cash and boozing it up, have a couple burglars come relieve some of his ill gotten gain.
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I can see it now, the Pimp walks out and backhands the guy to put him in his place, and he tries to fight back. Turns out the guy undertook the training to become a 20th level Monk because he wanted to make sure the b+$*&es knew he wasn't a limp-wristed brotha.
Ass kicking ensues.
Bonus points if you call him A Pimp Named Slickback (yes you have to say the whole thing).
. See, I also have a house rule. If your character dies, you can't just roll up the same character. Different class expected. So, I'd allow his thief to die an inglorious death, then his new shiny druid will be kept alive by all means possible. 'Cos I can show him what it's like to play with people who don't play nice. :-D
Mike
If someone dies in the middle of one of my games, they can choose between some pre rolled NPCs, or they get the random race/ class chart to roll on... They can either bring a new character in or roll with what they got in between modules.
The whole group works at the same place, so I was approached by our bored player, we will call him Andy. Andy said he's upset that gold is split 5 ways and wants a higher cut of the loot.
Allow me to paraphrase this:
After the game I was approached by our bored player, we will call him Andy. Andy said he's upset that the game isn't all about his character and him doing what he likes, but instead involves other people and a plot he's not interested in.
...and here is your problem. Andy isn't interested in the rest of the game, and wants more than his fair share of the spotlight. As such, he intends for everyone else IC and OOC to get less and him to get more.
If he really wants to do this, make him roll, make everyone else roll to see if they spot him, make them take intelligence checks to notice loot missing and let the dice fall where they will, if you think the friendships can stand it. If not, just say "I'm sorry, but this could spoil everyone else's fun. If you feel the game isn't working for you I won't have any hard feelings if you leave, but I'm not going to be unfair to everyone else."
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That sounds like a world of unending horror.
If I caught someone stealing from party loot, it'd be a "This person leaves the party or I do. This person is a crazy thief who has been stealing from you, and I am not. Choose wisely" situation, and I honestly can only think of a few characters who would not react that way-- they'd just kill him.
It's a bad idea.
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Tell him to invest in perform, profession or craft. That way he can earn some extra cash with a simple roll and without robbing the very people he needs to trust and have trust him.
He can even use his sleight of hand that way.
Well in my games I run I let the players do whatever they want and if they get caught they have to deal with the fallout. In a recent campaign that just ended after 3 years I allowed the sorceress who was always an aggressive spell caster to become evil, and at the end of the game she turned on her party and joined her succubus master in trying to destroy the other party members. I had told her the pros and cons through the whole change (she slowly turned over the last year and a half), yet she still went on with it. The party's cleric had been advised by the minions of her goddess that the sorceress was turning so when she did turn they were prepared and she was killed. It was great fun for most only a hissy fit from a player who won't be back cause when she turned and attacked him he got mad and tore up his sheets like he was a 2 yr old. It's all about freedom but just like in real life you reap what you sow.
This is magnificent! Thank you all very much for your response! I never expected such a strong reply.
It seems some clarification is necessary, unfortunately I don't have the time right now.
Couple quick points though.
I don't know this group all too terribly well. I've probably known the group for only a few months and again, we've only played 3 sessions.
They are very easy going so far, they're rolling with my mistakes, are actively engaged in reading the CRB and verifying rules.
It's less, 'hey you screwed up' and more 'hey let's get this right', which I'm thrilled about.
Andy's character is a level 2 fighter, so he didn't make his character with the intent of being sneaky. I *think* he wants his cake and to eat it too.
He's also a world of warcraft player, so I think he's more used to that realm of loot spreading, he also said he really enjoyed the PvP aspect of WoW... so I think he's looking for that same aspect. Whereas everyone else looks at is as a social experience.
I'll respond in much more detail later.
Thanks again, everyone!
First of all your method of dividing loot is unjust, secondly what the others said DO NOT allow this to happen.
To paraphrase what I said erlier: It MAY be ok for one pc to cheat on the other pcs IF the players are ok with it. But it is never ok if one player (with the help of the GM)cheats on the other players.
Thanks for the clarification.
Firstly, loot distribution is between the players: the GM has very little to do with it. I think the fairest way for Andy to get what he wants is to inform the table that he's trying to snag something extra before the normal round of sharing occurs: at that point, the GM adjudicates success or failure, but the players all know about it.
In my experience, GM/player secrets only work if the GM initiates them, not the other way around - the only reason for a player to initiate one is if the player is trying to keep something from the other players (rather than their characters), and that's pretty much always bad news.
You mentioned that Andy is a WoW PvPer - I'm afraid I don't know how WoW handles loot rolls, but it might be a good idea to suggest that he starts an IC discussion about loot distribution: if the other characters agree to some randomisation that might satisfy him.
As for the PvP aspect... That one's always touchy. One of the best ways to deal with it is to contrive a situation whereby his character literally cannot succeed without the aid of the other party members. Better still, design it so that no single character can succeed on their own. Maybe the wizard needs to Counterspell to get through a door, the cleric has to bless an item, the rogue needs to disable a trap and the fighter is the only one who can wield the (insert obscure martial weapon here) that is the only item that can defeat the (insert guardian monster here). Once players recognise the usefulness of the rest of the team, they tend to become less selfish about the treasure at the end of it.
Andy's character is a level 2 fighter, so he didn't make his character with the intent of being sneaky. I *think* he wants his cake and to eat it too.
He's also a world of warcraft player, so I think he's more used to that realm of loot spreading, he also said he really enjoyed the PvP aspect of WoW... so I think he's looking for that same aspect. Whereas everyone else looks at is as a social experience.
I think maybe you need to explain to him that D&D is a social game, and no-one is looking for a PvP experience here - that in fact most tables ban PvP.
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Andy said he's upset that gold is split 5 ways and wants a higher cut of the loot.
Sounds like something he should take up with the other PCs, unless he wants to start stealing from the corpses or hiding it.
I informed him of this option (which I made up on the fly, this might not even be the best system).
Right before I announce giving out loot, he could wink and smile at me or whatever to indicate he wants to try to pocket more coin. I would then announce for everyone to roll perception checks. Which everyone does, except for Andy, he rolls a sleight of hand. If his SoH is higher than everyone's Perception, then no one notices anything. I read the amount of gold a few coins fewer, and Andy gets his higher cut later when I tell him.
There is NOTHING WRONG with doing this, no matter what anyone says above. PCs can steal from other PCs. They can fight other PCs. They can murder other PCs in their sleep. I've seen all three, had all three happen to me, done a little bit to other PCs, and stayed friends with my gaming group for 20+ years.
You need to be very clear with all your players, to keep the in-game actions "in game," and they are not to get frustrated with them "out of game." Mature players can handle this. Immature players aren't worth playing the game with anyway. In particular, make sure that Andy understands if they catch him they might kill his character off, and make sure he's happy and okay with that.
As you go forward, you need to make very clear that you are straightforward and fair with your GMing of this situation. Just like the other players don't need to know if Andy passes his SOH check, ANDY doesn't need to know if any other players made their perception checks! Remember that.
What you need to do before the next game, is ask everyone for their perception skills, ask Andy privately for his SOH skill, and go ahead and pre-roll for the next half a dozen times Andy tries this. Sooner or later he'll get caught. Write out notes to the other players on index cards saying "what they saw," and pass those notes out as necessary based on the rolls. Alternately, SMS text them when they catch him.
In fact, once Andy sees you asking for their perception skills, he'll probably figure out what you're doing, and he might think twice before trying it.
Doing not only the SOH secretly, but the perception secretly, will give the other PCs the option to discuss what to do about Andy behind his back without an immediate combat confrontation arising. Even, in point of fact, murdering Andy's PC in his sleep. Or manacling his PC and dropping him off in jail. Whatever.
Allow in-game consequences to punish in-game actions.
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Andy said he's upset that gold is split 5 ways and wants a higher cut of the loot.Sounds like something he should take up with the other PCs, unless he wants to start stealing from the corpses or hiding it.
I informed him of this option (which I made up on the fly, this might not even be the best system).
Right before I announce giving out loot, he could wink and smile at me or whatever to indicate he wants to try to pocket more coin. I would then announce for everyone to roll perception checks. Which everyone does, except for Andy, he rolls a sleight of hand. If his SoH is higher than everyone's Perception, then no one notices anything. I read the amount of gold a few coins fewer, and Andy gets his higher cut later when I tell him.There is NOTHING WRONG with doing this, no matter what anyone says above. PCs can steal from other PCs. They can fight other PCs. They can murder other PCs in their sleep. I've seen all three, had all three happen to me, done a little bit to other PCs, and stayed friends with my gaming group for 20+ years.
You need to be very clear with all your players, to keep the in-game actions "in game," and they are not to get frustrated with them "out of game." Mature players can handle this. Immature players aren't worth playing the game with anyway. In particular, make sure that Andy understands if they catch him they might kill his character off, and make sure he's happy and okay with that.
There is "nothing wrong" with this if the group is aware of it and fine with it. If doing this creates a player vs player conflict and ends up with hurt feelings or a sense of personal betrayal, then there is something very, very wrong with this.
Don't listen to those people who say "PCs steal from PCs all the time, it's perfectly fine!" I've been playing this game for 30+ years and in that time I've encountered probably DOZENS of variations on this theme. And in the vast, vast majority of cases, it has turned out badly, and has even broken up entire gaming groups. In a very few rare cases, it has been fun and entertaining.
So tread very carefully my friend.