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Is it alright if I play my high level super genius as if he might maybe have enough intelligence to realize he has enemies and he should avoid traps and ambushes whenever possible? And that maybe he SHOULD actually be prepared because different situations do actually call for different spells and I just happen to be an expert in the subject. It's not that hard and not nearly as much of a drain on his resources as people believe. The entire argument that wizards wouldn't be prepared for every situation is a dumb one because there are only a limited number of types of situations that high level wizards even care about and it is not even that hard to be prepared for them all. Why people seem to think SR and immunities cause epic troubles for wizards is beyond me.
Your Wizard might be a super genious but you can't read your DMs mind. You are limited with regards to spell slots and you are not going to always have the right spells for the job. Sometimes its obvious such as when you are in cold terrain you might want to pack some fire spells but it actually happens quite a bit. Now if you are allowed to sift through your books and not actually have to memorize your spells ahead of time then yeah, you will be ready for anything.
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I agree. Batman is an artificer whose infinite wealth can purchase any magical item he needs whenever he needs it. And he also has the power to just be whatever class that would be most useful to him at the moment. It always strikes me as odd when people use batman as an example as what they want their high level mundane guy to be. His superpower is that "there is an app for that" and it happens to be in his belt or whatever.
Batman's utility belt would contain lots and lots of magic were he in Golarion.
And this is my point. It is false to say that martial classes don't have magic. They potentially have lots of access to lots of magic. They just can't personally cast spells. They can drink fly potion, they can wear boots of haste, they wield magical weapon and wear magical swords.
They just can't cast spells.
In exchange they get full BaB, d10 hit points, and whatever other class abilities come with the class.
Are there times when this exchange makes them less useful than casters, yes?
Are there times when the d6 hit points and lack of armor are a problem for full Arcane Casters? Also yes.
But I think sometimes people act like a mid to high level fighter doesn't have any magic items.
Now there is an issue, over-discussed perhaps in other threads, about the magic creation system. But the point here is that a fighter/barbarian/etc...is going to have access to magic in addition to the other things they get as a class.
I agree. Batman is an artificer whose infinite wealth can purchase any magical item he needs whenever he needs it. And he also has the power to just be whatever class that would be most useful to him at the moment. It always strikes me as odd when people use batman as an example as what they want their high level mundane guy to be. His superpower is that "there is an app for that" and it happens to be in his belt or whatever.
Batman's utility belt would contain lots and lots of magic were he in Golarion.And this is my point. It is false to say that martial classes don't have magic. They potentially have lots of access to lots of magic. They just can't personally cast spells. They can drink fly potion, they can wear boots of haste, they wield magical weapon and wear magical swords.
They just can't cast spells.
In exchange they get full BaB, d10 hit points, and whatever other class abilities come with the class.
Are there times when this exchange makes them less useful than casters, yes?
Are there times when the d6 hit points and lack of armor are a problem for full Arcane Casters? Also yes.
But I think sometimes people act like a mid to high level fighter doesn't have any magic items.
Now there is an issue, over-discussed perhaps in other threads, about the magic creation system. But the point here is that a fighter/barbarian/etc...is going to have access to magic in addition to the other things they get as a class.
Yes, because casters have no money and no ability to get magic items, much less make them right?
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Caster can buy and even make magic items. And they do. The question is of options, and the answer is they get options through magic items.
Martial classes get full BaB (casters don't) and d10 hit points (casters don't) in addition to whatever other special abilities of the class that casters don't get.
The point is that utility magic isn't the exclusive domain of casters, thanks to magic items.
Since my position here was somewhat mischaracterized I'd like to restate it for purposes of clarity.
I like the idea of martial characters who are truly mundane and would not have a problem playing one. I am OK with the concept that such a character will not be able to hold up against magical characters at high levels.
(Minor point, I rarely play at high levels, most of my characters retire around level 12 or so).
I have no problem with martial characters who can accomplish "superhuman" things through supernatural means. I just want that clearly stated that they are superhuman and using magic.
There's nothing wrong with this, but you seem to be conflating two ideas, those being "game abilities that are beyond what can be done in our real world" with "magical/supernatural abilities." The two are not the same thing, at least not in Pathfinder.
In the real world, a person who falls two hundred feat into a bed of spikes going to die. In Pathfinder, if they have more than a hundred hit points or so they'll most likely not only survive, but get up and walk away. There's nothing supernatural about that - it works in an antimagic field. The same is true for a monk that's immune to all diseases and can speak with any creature (e.g. purity of body and tongue of the sun and moon, both extraordinary powers). The same is true for barbarians that, when they get really angry, can see in the dark (e.g. the night vision rage power, also extraordinary).
There's a difference between what's possible by real-world physics, and what can be non-magically accomplished by people with no magical ability in a Pathfinder game.
Falling a mile and walking away from it is a game design flaw in my opinion Alzrius. It's absurd and creates ridiculous game situations where a character will deliberately leap off a mile high cliff knowing they can survive the fall.
The other things you describe would fit into my notion of "just call it magic, because it clearly is magic."
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There's a difference between what's possible by real-world physics, and what can be non-magically accomplished by people with no magical ability in a Pathfinder game.
The flaws in the falling damage system are a poor qualifier for "what can be done by non-magically accomplished people" since the falling damage rules work for everyone.
Including a squad of level 5 warriors all jumping off of a 60 foot cliff and taking max damage and all surviving (37 avg hp -36 max damage).This is a case of poor mechanics working as cover for "high level characters are supers". No.
When PCs get exceptional non-magical or story protection abilities beyond npcs then it becomes a game of supers - when everyone plays by the same set of rules it isn't a case of defying physics, it's just a case of bad rules.
Alzrius, you can assert what you like. Mundane human beings falling for miles and surviving with scratches and bruises is a flaw in the game design.
I'd love to see a survey on that issue to see how many people think it's fine, like you, and how many people snicker up their sleeves at the absurdity, like me.
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EDIT: To reiterate my basic point, if you're expecting the non-magical parts of the game to try and provide fidelity to real-world physics, across all levels, then you're making what I think is a fundamental misunderstanding about what Pathfinder is trying to accomplish.
That characters can non-magically do things that are impossible in the real world is purposeful; it's a feature of the game, not a bug.
And when a bunch of no-name level 5 or 6 warriors can fall 60 or 70 feet it breaks your "characters can do non-magical things" nonsense.
The falling rules are bad and do not reinforce the theme of "characters can do non-magical amazing things"; everyone in the game world can. Low to mid level loser npc classed npcs can replicate the same thing if they had the hit points in relation to the fall.
It's akin to a squad of stormtroopers chasing the hero and falling off of a very high ledge in the death star with the camera having a look down at them in a pile on the ground with one of them waving up "no,... were all alright! Really!".
Fighters pay twice as much for any magical gear they want compared to what wizards pay. Fighters need to invest the skill points they don't have in a non-class skill to use half the magical stuff in the game. Fighters need to either beg their wizard friend to let them have the magical stuff they want or hope the GM makes it available in loot or Ye Olde Magick Shoppe. Fighters need to invest huge amounts of their WBL in junk like magic weapons and armor just to keep up with the treadmill, while wizards don't really need anything more than a simple +Int headband.
Fighters fail miserably at being Batman.
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Caster can buy and even make magic items. And they do. The question is of options, and the answer is they get options through magic items.
Martial classes get full BaB (casters don't) and d10 hit points (casters don't) in addition to whatever other special abilities of the class that casters don't get.
The point is that utility magic isn't the exclusive domain of casters, thanks to magic items.
Exactly!
Ever see a rogue with maxed out UMD and a bag full of wands and scrolls?
Wizard can save his spell slots for blasting cause the rogue would have it covered.
Guys can we have maybe like one thread where I don't feel bad for playing a rogue or fighter because this is crushing my self-esteem and really hurting my feelings.
I'd say Roberta has the right of this. Expecting a non-caster to provide magical firepower is going to result in using a whole lot of gold, and it means someone is investing a whole lot of skill points in UMD.
I'm a big fan of UMD and most of my characters will invest in UMD just because it's nice to be able to do things without tugging on the wizard's sleeve. But expecting a rogue to be routinely doing wizard things in combat is just going to mean the rogue is not doing what they are designed to do and are best at.
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Alzrius, you can assert what you like. Mundane human beings falling for miles and surviving with scratches and bruises is a flaw in the game design.
I'd love to see a survey on that issue to see how many people think it's fine, like you, and how many people snicker up their sleeves at the absurdity, like me.
I hate it actually. Just like I hate the fact that a 2 ton block of stone falling on top of you may not kill you or the fact that the speed and weight of something hitting you head on has no factor when determining damage.
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Non-casters (and even casters because it is more practical) buy utility items to do utility things.
Need to fly? There is a potion for that. Need haste, what is your shoe size?
Meanwhile there are two ways to remove hitpoints. One that takes resources and one that doesn't.
The question was utility. If a wizard (or any caster class really) uses up slots on utility, they will have less slots for other things. And with all the talk of blaster caster being fail, who exactly is removing the hit points?
And when a bunch of no-name level 5 or 6 warriors can fall 60 or 70 feet it breaks your "characters can do non-magical things" nonsense.
So, while I wish it weren't true, can just point out that level 5 or 6 warriors can't possibly be non-name, because they are roughly equivalent to the very best warriors that have ever lived on Earth?
D&D world is fundamentally different than the real world--mundane as we know it stops at level 6. That's why E6 works.
I think what this thread does pretty well is show that:
It is a good thing that adamantine dragon is not a game designer (Wizards are gods because magic! Why should martial classes have any fun? It isn't like you need to train to be good with a sword, you just swing it! The only hard thing is MAGIC)
LOL, and yet that's exactly how many, many people are saying that Pathfinder is currently designed. I haven't laughed this hard in a while, thanks CWheezy.
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The "high level casters aren't likely to be prepared" argument is still fallacious. If people were talking about low level or even mid level then I might agree. But high level was specifically mentioned. No you will not have the best spell for the right situation 100% of the time. That's silly. Of course, that isn't what matters. What matters is that the number of scenarios the caster types are prepared for at any given moment increases exponentially with level and does not increase significantly for fighter types at any level. You can't be prepared for all scenarios, but the number of scenarios you WILL be prepared for is significantly high. And when casters aren't prepared they cast their "oh shit I wasn't prepared" spells.
Casters are not gods. They can be defeated. And while it is possible to a fighter type to be the one to do it. It isn't likely he did it without magical aid of some kind. Wizards will be threatened by equally powerful creatures. But fighters and tarrasques are not equally powerful. Clerics and demons are, however.
I'm running a campaign right now that has been going on since 1st level and is currently at 19th level and about to end. One of my players is playing a wizard. Just glancing at his character sheet he has...
-8 dominated ogre magi
-a dominated faerie queen (a previous adventures BBEG who he has been forcing to run an orphanage to atone who has been captive for so long that she has developed Stolkholm Syndrome)
-a faerie dragon familiar
-two flesh golems
-one stone golem
-a bronze dragon simulacrum
-a clone
-an army of shadows
-a bound marilith (He suspected that this marilith might be redeemable because her behavior wasn't like others of her kind. So he let her live in exchange for her name and told her he'd call upon her again when the need arose.)
If you were to ambush him right now (which you would not succeed at doing unless you had actually abilities, i.e., not a fighter because he has enemies and he plays the game as if that were true) you would find that after his third encounter of the day the only spells he's cast is returning weapon, communal, overland flight, and major creation (which he just devastated an entire enemy stronghold with).
Side note: He also has leadership. That has nothing to do with being a wizard and says nothing about wizard readiness. I just wanted to take the opportunity to say that Blink Dog cohorts are freakin' awesome.
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And when a bunch of no-name level 5 or 6 warriors can fall 60 or 70 feet it breaks your "characters can do non-magical things" nonsense.So, while I wish it weren't true, can just point out that level 5 or 6 warriors can't possibly be non-name, because they are roughly equivalent to the very best warriors that have ever lived on Earth?
Tavern Champion (5th warrior) and Grizzled Mercenary (6th warrior) from the NPC codex - hardly the cream of the crop and hardly requiring a name. Mid to high level npc classed npcs are not the "very best warriors that have ever lived on Earth" - that title is for PC fighters of level and renown. The warriors I listed are just the chumps that a higher level fighter chops through - hardly the best on the earth. Both can survive a 60 and 80 foot fall at max damage though.
And that isn't optimized for hp.
A Ruffian from the same book is a Commoner level 7 - has 45 hp -can survive a 70ft tall fall. Maybe he's the leader of the ruffian gang the "Royal Rumbling Ruffians" and he has a name. His cronies in the gang (no namers) are level 5 commoners can survive a 50ft fall at max damage.
Again, the rules are bad - they do a poor service of explaining in-game abilities or assumed powers. They are just bad.
A better system would have more damage or catastrophic damage where PC/NPC classed characters can have a heroic save for a reduction. That way we can leave the land of the stupid where barmaids and village elders can survive 30ft falls and walk away alive.
First:
Dominate Person
Duration 1 day/level
Second:
Boots of Teleportation.
Not sure what you're getting at with the dominate person thing. That's 19 days. He has it extended and he has dominate memorized and a couple of scrolls just in case. He actually has a few other creatures dominated too but I didn't bother to mention them because they are a trio of low level rapists that he forces to carry his ogre magi's shit around as atonement. He's a good guy but an ass too.
You wanna teleport into an enemy encampment? You realize you're going to be killed right? You should bring back up. And you shouldn't go for the surprise round. That benefits that caster and not the fighter types.
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The problem being that he will have to keep all of those dominated creatures close (range) to recast and any time he asks them to take actions against thier nature, they receive a new saving throw with a +2 bonus.
That is a lot of maintainance and handwaving, not to mention having all the scrolls doesn't mean they always fail the save.
Whatever works for your game, but you are giving dominate an awful lot of leeway.
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And as to teleport, if the fighter can get next to the caster, at that level advantage fighter.
Which is what the boots do.
There is a high rocket tag component at that level.
Too bad that's an astral projection, and he has a clone (in a private sanctum or demiplane that is inaccessible except via wish (EDIT: Unless you're the mage, of course.)), etc, etc.
At high level, you're never actually fighting the wizard when you fight the wizard. It doesn't matter what tactics you use if the person you're fighting is never truly at risk. You could nuke the entire material plane, and most 20th level mages will be fine (upset, but alive).
The very crux of the problem with the non-caster vs. caster fight is that the caster will not only be prepared for 90% of what you can do, but he'll also be prepared to survive the other 10% through various shenanigans like what I mentioned above. Why prepare to avoid death when you can simply prepare to make it irrelevant? This is an option that is simply not available to any martial character.
Now, sure, forcing a mage to take up his clone back-up will certainly hurt his disposition, but it will not end him. (Of course, doing so is tricky if they are actually just an astral projection, which also means no loot for your trouble.)
When was the last time you brought a martial character to -Con only to find out months later that that was just stage 1 of the fight?
Of course, maybe the solution to this is to make it so that mages generally CAN'T use catch-all defensive things like Clone or Astral Projection, but as of now they are options and long term at that.
No. I'm giving it absolutely no leeway and handwaving nothing It just really is that easy. Have you seen the saves of an ogre mage? It's only likely to succeed very rarely and he doesn't get them to perform task that are against their nature. He didn't dominate Deva's. He dominated a literal band of thugs. And he uses them as a band of thugs. On the occasions that they do go against their nature...they have failed their saves on all but on occasion. And since he doesn't personally see them as a threat...it didn't matter. Like at all.
ALso...rotate dominates. You don't cast them all in one day.
The boots won't help you. You have a single standard action during a surprise round to win because you chose to use boot and come alone. Then you die. There are ways to ambush him. But this isn't an effective one. Its a suicidal one.
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Damn you Schrodinger!
This isn't even Shroedinger's wizard. This is just what a 20th level wizard would have done months before, stopping by maybe once every couple of weeks for upkeep on the clone. The only way it's a shroedinger's wizard is if it's unreasonable to expect them to have spell X prepared that day, which is certainly not the case when they don't even have to have the spell prepared that day to be gaining the benefits.
If I ever had a wizard survive to that level I know that this would be amongst the first things I would do. At that level it's just a basic defensive mechanism, like casting Nondetection and Freedom of Movement (or making items thereof). At 20th level you have too many spell slots to have any excuse for NOT doing these things. Heck, I do these things with even psuedo-caster characters when possible.
EDIT: I should also note that a wizard of 20th level would have so damn many spell slots in the first few spell levels that if they DIDN'T have at least a half-dozen of those dedicated to basic defensive things that everyone knows are OP (like freedom of movement) I wouldn't have much respect for them.
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And if they fail, the wizard is in close range and has used his action that round.
Not that anyone can fight Schrodinger in his secret lair on Skullcrusher Mountain demi-plane he never leaves to adventure
And that in this case, is full of creatures that are one failed save from turning on him.
On the topic of Dominate, what do you define as "against their nature"? Because that seems to be the part that would seem the most likely to go bad for him, and the limiting factor in the spell.
And you right, it isn't like the fighter has access to any abilities that cause problems to adjacent casters. He's doomed.
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And if they fail, the wizard is in close range and has used his action that round.
Not that anyone can fight Schrodinger in his secret lair on Skullcrusher Mountain demi-plane he never leaves to adventure
And that in this case, is full of creatures that are one failed save from turning on him.
On the topic of Dominate, what do you define as "against their nature"? Because that seems to be the part that would seem the most likely to go bad for him, and the limiting factor in the spell.
And you right, it isn't like the fighter has access to any abilities that cause problems to adjacent casters. He's doomed.
Yeah, you're right, the fact that the wizard is wandering around in the material plane doing whatever he wants (dominating creatures or no) with impunity because even if he dies he just pops back up in is secret lair that no-one can access is in no way a problem for the fighter's ability to defeat him and totally keeps the wizard from being able to be meaningful in the world in any way.
Seriously dude, 5 spells: Create Lesser Demiplane, Permanency, Clone, Gentle Repose, Plane Shift. All but the first in core. You create your own private plane of existence that no-one knows about, create a clone in it, use gentle repose on it every couple of weeks and use plane shift to enter and leave. It doesn't take that much space to make/store a clone, and the total cost of the above is < 20k (only 1,000 of which need to be paid again to reuse it).
None of those spells need to be prepared except for the biweekly upkeep (which would take all of a minute or two if taking your time), and even then it would only take 3 spell slots to perform said upkeep (trivial impact on lasting power that day for the 20th level folks).
Now, sure, this takes level 15, but high levels is the place where that imbalance between casters and non-casters starts coming to a head, so it seems appropriate to discuss levels that high.
PS: Since the wizard is smart enough to "waste" a 3rd level spell slot on nondetection each day, the only practical way to know about his plane is very high level divination (you basically have to ask a god or be a 15th+ level mage yourself, so good luck with that).
PPS: Once the fighter has "killed" the wizard, the wizard now knows he has a foe and can prepare for that foe as appropriate, performing all proper divinations, etc, and probably just kills the fighter in his sleep.
Tavern Champion (5th warrior) and Grizzled Mercenary (6th warrior) from the NPC codex - hardly the cream of the crop and hardly requiring a name.
That's kind of my point. Those characters are capable of things only the real world's very best are capable of an they're some random schmucks in Golarion. In other words, Golarion works differently than Earth.
Mid to high level npc classed npcs are not the "very best warriors that have ever lived on Earth" - that title is for PC fighters of level and renown.
I mean the literal Earth. Here. If you compare what a level 5 or 6 character is capable of, it matches the very best that real life humans have ever managed. A level 6 warrior absolutely matches the very best warrior that has ever lived on Earth.
It is telling that in Pathfinder, such a person is "just a dude."
That's the point. The high levels of Pathfinder are not grounded in any reality we know of. Once you hit level 7, you are capable of things nobody on Earth is.
My greater point is that things that are "mundane" in Pathfinder are not "mundane" in the real world. Falling from great heights and surviving is something regular people do in Golarion. You don't need to be magic to do stuff nobody in the real world can do--commoners can--so, why do people want high level Fighters to be bound by the real world?
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Yup, minus all of his equipment.
But you are right, there is no way to bring back non-wizards from the dead.
There is no way for non-mages to bring THEMSELVES back from the dead (that I know of), especially not fighters. They can get a magic item or help from a mage, but they can't do it themselves. The mage, in this case, is effectively bringing themselves back from the dead preemptively.
But you're right, why don't we just resort to pure snark about irrelevant corner cases instead of trying to have a real discussion about why I'd like to play a martial character that can do more than merely "hit with stick" and largely ineffectual variants thereof without resorting to resources everyone else gets as well. Forgive me if I find it disturbing that with a very minor investment the mage can be nearly immune to divination or completely immune to grapple or even (to an extent) death itself, but a fighter cannot even think of being able to break a boulder with a single swing without someone crying foul, and to even begin to resist grapple at the level the wizard does takes two feats (and even that does approximately nothing compared to the CMB of the things they fight).
So yes. Let's stop this conversation now. You win. Warriors/Fighters/Whatever can continue investing feat after feat to gain minor benefits and we'll continue letting casters get a better version with a single spell investment of often low level. Obviously the fact that they can only do it once or twice will be of grave import when it is rare that the caster needs a given spell more than once or twice, despite all evidence I've seen to the contrary, and 24-hour duration spells simply don't exist. I mean, fighter types already get to be awesome at low levels, so that should obviously sate them once the double-digits set in.
Yup. The system is perfect. Let's all go home now.
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And as to teleport, if the fighter can get next to the caster, at that level advantage fighter.
Which is what the boots do.
There is a high rocket tag component at that level.
Too bad that's an astral projection, and he has a clone (in a private sanctum or demiplane that is inaccessible except via wish (EDIT: Unless you're the mage, of course.)), etc, etc.
At high level, you're never actually fighting the wizard when you fight the wizard. It doesn't matter what tactics you use if the person you're fighting is never truly at risk. You could nuke the entire material plane, and most 20th level mages will be fine (upset, but alive).
The very crux of the problem with the non-caster vs. caster fight is that the caster will not only be prepared for 90% of what you can do, but he'll also be prepared to survive the other 10% through various shenanigans like what I mentioned above. Why prepare to avoid death when you can simply prepare to make it irrelevant? This is an option that is simply not available to any martial character.
Now, sure, forcing a mage to take up his clone back-up will certainly hurt his disposition, but it will not end him. (Of course, doing so is tricky if they are actually just an astral projection, which also means no loot for your trouble.)
When was the last time you brought a martial character to -Con only to find out months later that that was just stage 1 of the fight?
Of course, maybe the solution to this is to make it so that mages generally CAN'T use catch-all defensive things like Clone or Astral Projection, but as of now they are options and long term at that.
Funny how people assume Wizards walk around with their buffs on all day and they are just loaded down with Clones and Contingency spells.
I always get a kick out of it.
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I'd say Roberta has the right of this. Expecting a non-caster to provide magical firepower is going to result in using a whole lot of gold, and it means someone is investing a whole lot of skill points in UMD.
I'm a big fan of UMD and most of my characters will invest in UMD just because it's nice to be able to do things without tugging on the wizard's sleeve. But expecting a rogue to be routinely doing wizard things in combat is just going to mean the rogue is not doing what they are designed to do and are best at.
It is not the best interpretation. You do nt spect a fighter, cavalier or rogue to dominate monsters, bind outsiders and the like.
But at higher level those character could/should have ways to fly, see invisibility, have defenses against several status, etc.
They do have ways to do this but it's really funny how some of you continue to forget that this is a team game. Please show me a Wizard that can go from 1 to 20 all alone and take on monsters that are reserved for a party, don't bother trying because you won't.
If the fighter, or any PC for that matter, needs a hand with something then "your companion" will most likely help you because you know, it is a team game. That fighter will no doubt be helping your skinny ass when you have run out of spells and you are down to tossing cantrips to little effect, or have we forgotten about that? A high level fighter is no joke and I Wizard still can't do it alone at high level so we pretend that they do.
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And as to teleport, if the fighter can get next to the caster, at that level advantage fighter.
Which is what the boots do.
There is a high rocket tag component at that level.
Too bad that's an astral projection, and he has a clone (in a private sanctum or demiplane that is inaccessible except via wish (EDIT: Unless you're the mage, of course.)), etc, etc.
At high level, you're never actually fighting the wizard when you fight the wizard. It doesn't matter what tactics you use if the person you're fighting is never truly at risk. You could nuke the entire material plane, and most 20th level mages will be fine (upset, but alive).
The very crux of the problem with the non-caster vs. caster fight is that the caster will not only be prepared for 90% of what you can do, but he'll also be prepared to survive the other 10% through various shenanigans like what I mentioned above. Why prepare to avoid death when you can simply prepare to make it irrelevant? This is an option that is simply not available to any martial character.
Now, sure, forcing a mage to take up his clone back-up will certainly hurt his disposition, but it will not end him. (Of course, doing so is tricky if they are actually just an astral projection, which also means no loot for your trouble.)
When was the last time you brought a martial character to -Con only to find out months later that that was just stage 1 of the fight?
Of course, maybe the solution to this is to make it so that mages generally CAN'T use catch-all defensive things like Clone or Astral Projection, but as of now they are options and long term at that.
Funny how people assume Wizards walk around with their buffs on all day and they are just loaded down with Clones and Contingency spells.
I always get a kick out of it.
Every caster I have ever played that hit high levels (which is a short list, I suppose) has had to keep a special list of "shit that I have going" because of the sheer enormity of the buffs that are always going. And yes, I properly track spell slot usage when doing so.
Even my current Oracle, which is designed as a beatstick, always has at least 2-3 buffs even when walking around town shopping (endure elements, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon, probably more I'm forgetting). I almost always have a list of about 8 buffs when combat is actually expected.
If you guys aren't playing your casters this way, then maybe you just aren't seeing the class's full potential. Heck, this probably isn't even your fault, it's just that casters get so complicated at high level that it can be hard to manage, which may be another flaw in the system.