No idea Wyrm, by the time "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords" came out, my group had gotten so tired of power creep (sprint) that we had more or less gone back to the core books and a couple of other books.
This was, in fact, one reason my group converted to PF.
One thing that is worth pointing out is that this entire conversation is making a very basic assumption about the wizard, and that assumption is that the wizard has no interest or desire in doing the things the martial character does. Of course the same applies to any full spellcaster, but is even more meaningful for 3/4 classes like druid or cleric.
My druid is an archer. Her default combat activity is to be an archer. She only resorts to spells if she needs to. She's taken the archery feats so she does respectable damage with her bow. She also has the ability to invest a very few spells into encounter long bonuses which make her a more effective archer.
I have had archer sorcerers too. Not wizards I admit, but sorcerers.
The ugly reality here is that a caster CAN do the same things a martial character can do. Not quite as good, for sure, but in many cases they can perform respectably.
The martial classes simply cannot do what the casters do.
There simply is no way to "balance" a system where one group of characters can do A & B but another group can only do A.
Can't be done.
I love to see that build. Could I talk you into PM-ing it to me?
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The Tome of Battle helped with the "non-casters require a full attack action to meaningfully contribute" problem, by letting Martials do the same thing they could already do in a full attack in a standard instead.
It did not give martials anything comparable to spells whatsoever.
The closest thing to closing the martial-caster divide was Iron Heart Surge, which many people complain about (since it let martials shake of any effect--seriously, anything with no restriction, as far as I remember), but to be honest, that's exactly the sort of thing I think martial types should have already.
I like the image of Conan shaking off the sorcerer mind control and punching him out. I want more of that.
Is this yet another rehashing of the old argument that it's not fair that a guy who spent his entire life researching and mastering the arcane mysteries of the universe and can manipulate space and time with words and gestures should be able to do more than a guy who swings a pointy stick at other people?
Just not getting that argument.
This is another rehashing of the old argument that "Well it makes sense in-game lol" is not a good reason to have such a huge disparity between classes.
And besides that, by 20th level characters are supposed to be on par with demi-gods. Fighters do that with numbers I guess, they hit things with swords so hard they break when they shouldn't, but here's the thing: Demi-gods should have something extra.
Above 6th level characters are supposed to be super-human. Look at Batman. Nominally human, sure, but do you know a human who can lift a baseline of 1000 lbs as part of his daily routine of exercises, while still remaining agile enough to swing around town on a grappling hook?
And the difference between Batman and a Fighter is that Batman has OPTIONS. Batman has the equivalent of full BaB and d10 hit dice, but 8+Int skill points.
You can build a Fighter with high Int, but you sacrifice much of his Fighter-ness in return as afar as numbers go. For a Fighter to be as skilled as a Wizard he needs to sacrifice some other stat he needs, be it Str, Dex, Con, or even Wis and Cha. Meanwhile, the Wizard is sitting pretty with the same baseline of skill points...but sacrifices nothing for the higher Int because that's what he needs and that's all he needs.
But back to Batman. Batman is a 10th level character at best. He survives by being smarter than every man, woman, child, and extra-spacial being in the room at the time and using that info to his advantage. He doesn't go toe-to-toe with the gods' playthings, he doesn't have the stats for it. He can cut their toes off and push them over from behind, but he can't walk up to Mr. OmNomipus the Brutal and punch him in the face so hard his brain bleeds.
The Fighter can. The problem with the disparity is that while the Fighter could poke a hole in the space-time continuum if only he could find a part he could hit, the Wizard CAN find it and he can punch a whole in it from the safety of his living room if he wishes to do so.
The Fighter is supposed to be the equivalent of Superman in the older comics "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound", not "Average Joe, plus some extra".
The Fighter is limited by physics except when the game feels that he shouldn't be (Ground Breaker comes to mind). The Fighter should not be limited so harshly because "it doesn't make sense" that he should be able to do things. Give a Fighter some options here by letting him Screw Physics every once in a while.
So this isn't about characters, this is about players. Why is it fair to the PLAYER that by the virtue of class selection he can do anything the other player can do but better? Out of combat, and some cases inside of it, the Wizard player is able to deal with the same problems the Fighter player comes across in the exact same situation, but he is able to deal with them faster and more efficiently than the Fighter in many cases when the solution isn't just "Whack it with a stick".
Give the Fighter some new class features or something, simple things like being able to use his in-combat skills for out-of-combat purposes. Let the Fighter be the physical exemplar, able to use Strength to jump (also fix jumping so you don't have to build an entire character around jumping just to get a measly 15 foot leap straight up), or some flavorful abilities that are useful in and out of combat like a focused strike that lets him unlock doors by slicing/piercing/smashing the lock without disturbing the contents (much like a Gunslinger's utility shot).
This sort of thing is why martial-types are more dependant on magic gear than casters are.
Martial characters gain options when they get magic items: necklaces of fireball, boots of speed, cubes of force, potions, capes of the montebank, and so on: They all give non-magical characters abilities they just plain couldn't do otherwise.
Casters, on the other hand, are already full of options. What magic items give them is staying power. Wands, scrolls, and staves are all explictly spells that caster already has direct or indirect accss to, but outside of their X/day limit. Other magic items do the same thing: winged boots save a spell slot that would have been spent of fly. Even number boosters get in on the act: bracers of armor save casting mage armor and a headband of intellect is less a novel bonus and more a replacement for casting fox's cunning.
A lot of magic items also give martials bigger numbers, magic weapons and armor, cloaks of resistance, rings of deflection and so on. Remember, though, martial characters can't get these bonuses any other way (without a caster.) A belt of strength doesn't give the martial character more options: It saves the caster a [i]bull's strength[/i.]
The problem I see with this is when you need to spend all of your dosh to get just a fraction of the options a caster needs (which slows your progression on your primary focus of the class, that of combat), whereas a caster can pump all of his wealth into making him better at what he can already do.
Scrolls/Wands/Staves are the Wizard equivalent of number boosters. It boosts their number of spells per day, effectively, which is what their entire purpose is. You can buy those and still have change to spare for your Headband of Vast Intellect and Bracers of Armor (or could buy a Wand of Mage Armor).
The martial is spending cash now to get both the extra numbers AND the extra options. With the worst part being that many of those you pointed out (Necklace of Fireballs, Potions, and other consumables) are used up COMPLETELY when they get used. So they're both having to repeatedly buy consumables for their nice effects (I love the Necklace of Fireballs), just like the caster, but they're also still focused on upgrading their permanent gear, which they often have much more of and a much more pressing need to use.
I love to see that build. Could I talk you into PM-ing it to me?One thing that is worth pointing out is that this entire conversation is making a very basic assumption about the wizard, and that assumption is that the wizard has no interest or desire in doing the things the martial character does. Of course the same applies to any full spellcaster, but is even more meaningful for 3/4 classes like druid or cleric.
My druid is an archer. Her default combat activity is to be an archer. She only resorts to spells if she needs to. She's taken the archery feats so she does respectable damage with her bow. She also has the ability to invest a very few spells into encounter long bonuses which make her a more effective archer.
I have had archer sorcerers too. Not wizards I admit, but sorcerers.
The ugly reality here is that a caster CAN do the same things a martial character can do. Not quite as good, for sure, but in many cases they can perform respectably.
The martial classes simply cannot do what the casters do.
There simply is no way to "balance" a system where one group of characters can do A & B but another group can only do A.
Can't be done.
I've discussed my archer druid many times. She's not complex. She's basically a level 8 (just hit 9, haven't actually played her at 9 yet) druid with the PBS tree (PBS, Precise shot, rapid shot, many shot), a +1 shocking bow, bracers of the falcon and a belt of dexterity.
She also has ranks in UMD and when given time uses wands to do things like cast "gravity bow" or "greater magic weapon" or other buffs on herself.
She generally rides her tiger AC and gets three attacks with four arrows per round.
I have not done a sorcerer archer in PF, although I had done one in 3.5. I'm not sure how well it would convert since some of the really cool sorcerer spells that helped archery did not convert. (I loved "bite of the wererat...)
Well how about now. Do you think any of the martials stand at the same level as Wizards or Clerics?
It depends on what you are measuring. In terms of damage to an enemy combatant, then sure. But if you mean in terms of general effectiveness and power, not after about level 10 or so. And that's being generous. If I really wanted to argue the point, I might argue that full casters outstrip martial characters starting about level 5 or 6.
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In my opinion, one of the fundamental flaws with the system is that it does not separate power scale with power breadth. That is to say, you cannot have character A have X number of options at level 5 and have character B have Y number of options (of which all of A's powers are a subset) but also be at the same power level for each option. Character B would, in pathfinder, have to have reached level 20 to hit 4 times as many features, abilities, etc, which means they are now superhuman.
As an example: Those who get upset when a fighter survives a 100ft fall and just shrugs it off are simply misunderstanding the power scale that the game operates at when that fighter is level 15+.
If you want to have a game where your martial characters do NOT become DBZ toons, you need to separate breadth and depth of power into separate progressions. There is simply no way for anyone, no matter how many martial options they have, to keep up with someone who has 9th level spells and is even remotely properly prepared unless that person is one of those super-crazy anime super-badasses that can cut through magic with their teeth and eat an anti-tank round for breakfast. It simply can't happen. That guy with 9th level spells is, first of all, probably not actually at the fight (you just defeated a clone, simulacrum, astral projection, etc), and second of all can simply stop time to buff then lay waste to you.
If you separate power breadth and power depth into separate progressions, you can (for a given campaign) simply *define* the power level you're looking for (depth) then allow people to gain breadth as necessary. Stats may or may not scale, but they get more feats, more class features, etc. This is essentially what E6 (and variants) attempt to accomplish.
Note, however, that the TYPES of powers that martials and casters are capable of would be different. A fighter might eat a spell, but most casters aren't likely capable of that. A fighter might be able to defy physics to get hit by a charging tarrasque and stand his ground, but a caster not so much. The fighter might be able to do some limited air-jumping, but wouldn't truly fly. They might be fast, but never truly teleport (and thus must always deal with the obstacles that exist between point A and B).
TL;DR - Random ramblings of an incoherent theory-crafter. Move along, nothing to see here.
It's not really a fair comparison. Fighters stretch the gamut from gritty to heroic because that's the venue they operate in. Sword and Sandals, Swords and Wizardry, basically Conan to Elric. Batman on the other hand operates in a superhero venue, he takes on characters like the Joker and he even gives a beat down to Superman. People make the mistake of comparison because they consider Batman to be a super-mundane. He's not really, he's stack of Doc Savage, Dick Tracy and 90 percent of Reed Richards. He's mythic.
But there's a difference of scale even in Mythical people. Batman is about on the level of Beowulf when it comes to Mythical figures. Pathfinder (vanilla Pathfinder, throwing in home games and such muddies the waters) is based on the idea that the characters, at high level, hit that level of Mythic and SURPASS it.
They never quite hit the top tier of anime overpoweredness (The protagonists at the end of some Shonen manga/anime like Dragonball Z), but they do hit the mid-tier at the highest levels. Something like the characters in one Piece, who are definitely super-human, but aren't even close to the nigh omnipotence displayed by other characters in other works.
But the difference between the classes is exacerbated at high levels, where casters match that power level but martials don't. Fighters end up like Marine Captains, like Smoker. Excruciatingly powerful...in an early level campaign. Fighters should be Zoro, able to cut through steel and flesh with equal prowess, and being able to slice the air so hard it shoots forward into a cannonball-like attack, and able to hold their own with people who have all SORTS of funky powers.
Martials should, at high levels embody the Charles Atlas Superpower trope, able to match real superhumans blow for blow through sheer force of will and training.
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Fighters should be Zoro, able to cut through steel and flesh with equal prowess, and being able to slice the air so hard it shoots forward into a cannonball-like attack...
... at which point they cease being martial and have become magical beings themselves, since you can't actually DO those things without magic.
If that's the goal of the game, for sheer physical ability to transcend reality and morph seamlessly into magical powers, then just say that and design the game that way. Don't waste my time with ridiculous justifications and absurd rationalizations.
"At level 10 the fighter gains the power to alter space and time through sheer determination and willpower. This allows fighters to perform supernatural exploits such as:...."
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Fighters should be Zoro, able to cut through steel and flesh with equal prowess, and being able to slice the air so hard it shoots forward into a cannonball-like attack...... at which point they cease being martial and have become magical beings themselves, since you can't actually DO those things without magic.
If that's the goal of the game, for sheer physical ability to transcend reality and morph seamlessly into magical powers, then just say that and design the game that way. Don't waste my time with ridiculous justifications and absurd rationalizations.
"At level 10 the fighter gains the power to alter space and time through sheer determination and willpower. This allows fighters to perform supernatural exploits such as:...."
I think the problem is that the mythical source material many people are coming from have characters with no spells that bend what we consider reality in a way that they considered mundane.
For example, Maui (from Maori mythology) throws a noose around the sun and beats him with a jawbone until he agrees to go slower. This is not done with a spell or magic--he's just so physically awesome that he can lasso the sun.
He then uses the jawbone as a lure and fishes up the islands of the South Pacific. Again, he's just awesome--not magic--in these myths.
He does use magic and spells in other myths, though, so there is actually a pretty clear differentiation here as to what is magic and what is not.
Myth is full of this stuff. People move mountains because they are mythically strong, not because they are magic. People punch out abstract concepts because they are awesome at punching, not because they have spells.
People can jump 50' feet at level 15--why can't they do similarly unrealistic things that are more useful?
mpl - so here's the deal. You can't lasso the sun physically. So if Maui did it, he did it magically. Same with fishing up the islands. Can't be done physically, so it's magic.
It's "supernatural" by definition. And supernatural is just one synonym of "magical."
Your examples more or less exactly make my point. The pure physical awesomeness of the mythological characters is so great that they transcend natural limits and become magical.
Also "magical" =/= "spells". Spell casting is just one type of manifesting supernatural abilities.
Superman is magical. His powers are beyond natural law. What he does is impossible according to natural law. To do it means he is performing "supernatural" acts (thus the name "super"man).
Just call it what it is. That's all I ask.
mpl - so here's the deal. You can't lasso the sun physically. So if Maui did it, he did it magically. Same with fishing up the islands. Can't be done physically, so it's magic.
It's "supernatural" by definition. And supernatural is just one synonym of "magical."
Your examples more or less exactly make my point. The pure physical awesomeness of the mythological characters is so great that they transcend natural limits and become magical.
Also "magical" =/= "spells". Spell casting is just one type of manifesting supernatural abilities.
Superman is magical. His powers are beyond natural law. What he does is impossible according to natural law. To do it means he is performing "supernatural" acts (thus the name "super"man).
Just call it what it is. That's all I ask.
I don't mind calling them (Su) abilities.
See, I always see two schools of thought on what people want in fighters.
The first school prefers Batman. Obviously not a mundane guy, but compared to the likes of Green Lantern and superman, you feel like he doesn't quite belong. What he does have is skills, peak physical prowess, and the equipment and money to get the job done (which people seem to forget a lot...). I am personally in this group. I like having the great amounts of feats and using magic items to take on otherworldy threats. I'd prefer having more skill points, but I tend not to make my Int abyssmal.
The second school prefers Hercules. Herculean strength and reality-bending abilities that blur the line of extraordinary and supernatural. You see this a lot in older myths and legends, like Gilgamesh, Lu Bu, and Momotarō. This is also popular in current day media, from video games like God of War and Devil May Cry, to anime, like Bleach and Naruto. Their reliance on equipment, while still there, is less than the Batman's and their power all comes from their bloodline or intense inner training. Personally, while I'm not really into the Bo9S, I actually didn't think most of it was that OP and there was some stuff in there that I liked.
Some people in the first school call the second school "weeabos", because of the association with anime. They see them as power-hungry munchkins that don't care about balance. Some people in the second school call the first school haters that don't want the fighter to have nice things. They see them as antifun caster lovers that want the fighter to be useless. Honestly, this is a flavor issue of what people want out of the game. There's nothing wrong with either school, as it is good to have options to accommodate the differences in playstyle. I personally enjoy more options and do look forward to Mythic to make the kind of fighters in the second school.
...did somebody say "weeaboo?"
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Just to shed light on Maui.
From wikipedia "Māui's divine ancestor, Tama-nui-te-ra (or Rangi) then takes the child and nourishes it to adolescence."
He is a demi-god in the Greek sense. So I agree with AD on this one. I was happier with the only class having multiple attacks being 'fighters' and as many attacks as levels against creatures of less than 1 HD. But waving a sword and toppling hundreds of enemies?
S.
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I would like the game to maintain some completely mundane character classes, and if that means they are overshadowed by the powers and abilities of other classes, so be it.
I know it might come as a shock to some players, but I don't always need to have my character be on a par with every other character. I sometimes enjoy playing lesser characters and contributing through sheer ingenuity, leadership and tactical mastery.
...did somebody say "weeaboo?"
Cause I think I just heard someone say weeaboo!
I would like the game to maintain some completely mundane character classes, and if that means they are overshadowed by the powers and abilities of other classes, so be it.
I know it might come as a shock to some players, but I don't always need to have my character be on a par with every other character. I sometimes enjoy playing lesser characters and contributing through sheer ingenuity, leadership and tactical mastery.
And that's fine. I'm in that school of thought too. I love using tactics and skills and I make use of magic items all the time. But at the same time, I can see people wanting options to make their fighter more than that. And that's fine too. I never saw an issue with either style of play, except when people start arguing about it.
mpl - so here's the deal. You can't lasso the sun physically. So if Maui did it, he did it magically. Same with fishing up the islands. Can't be done physically, so it's magic.
It's "supernatural" by definition. And supernatural is just one synonym of "magical."
Your examples more or less exactly make my point. The pure physical awesomeness of the mythological characters is so great that they transcend natural limits and become magical.
Also "magical" =/= "spells". Spell casting is just one type of manifesting supernatural abilities.
Superman is magical. His powers are beyond natural law. What he does is impossible according to natural law. To do it means he is performing "supernatural" acts (thus the name "super"man).
Just call it what it is. That's all I ask.
But here's the thing: It's NOT SUPERNATURAL IN UNIVERSE. That bit is very important. There's a "scientific" explanation for his powers (and in fact Superman has a massive weakness to magic), that is explained by his physiology and blah dee blah. He is Superman because he is SuperHUman, not SuperNATURAL.
Remember, Golarion =/= Earth. The setting is different from our world and the natural laws are much more mutable. Hell the Barbarian's Damage Reduction and a few Rage Powers (we'll take Ground Breaker again as an example) are NOT Supernatural abilities, yet defy the laws of physics as we know them. The Barbarian, through sheer physical prowess, is able to shrug off sword blows and make a miniature earthquake that leaves the ground cracked and broken for 5-20 feet around him.
My personal opinion is that level 20 melee pc's should be at the level of fate/stay night heroic spirits moving at super speed, wielding dozens of weapons at once possibly one of which is a legendary artifact that can level mountains with the light of his heroic souls.
High level fighters get class features like unlimited blade works? Sign me the hell up.
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Hmm, well here's my two cents on the whole situation. Too many options is what has skewed the game to begin with! Having played 1st-4th edition as well as PF here's my take:
Back in the old days we didnt have alot of "options" No prestige classes. No archtypes. Hell, not even any feats or skill points. Just some basic classes and basic options. We had to use our imaginations to personalize our characters. Fighters only had the choice of using a 2h, weapon and shield, or fighting with 2 weapons (and back then the off hand weapon could only be a dagger or handaxe) Casters only had a choice of Wizard, Illusionist, cleic or druid. Spell lists were small, so you were only really different by maybe race choice or mullticlassing.
And even with limited options we had loads of fun! Games were a time to eat pizza, drink sodas, talk about movies we had seen or books we were reading, make bad jokes, laugh alot, and yes even roll some dice and kill some monsters. We didnt power game much cause it just wasnt there to work with.
Seems to me as the "arms race" became such a big driving force in the game is when the problems started. Everybody just started adding more and more options. Pcs became tougher and tougher. Monsters had to keep pace and be updated or they just became a joke.(Funny thing is, back then weapon specialization and the extra attacks it used to give was a hot topic as it unbalanced the game)
As all these options were added edition by edition, character creation and planning became more involved and time consuming. Players started spending hours pouring over options, agonizing over every choice. Terms like DPR started coming into use. Sure, we did some general character comparisons in the old days, but now it became paramount and we had all these options and stats and whatnot to cross compare.
You wanna complain about casteres? Wizzys in particular? Well back in 1e if you could keep one alive, no one resented you if you managed to get to higher level. (No one at our table anyway) At first level you had a whopping 1d4 hp with max +2 con bonus, no armor, very limited weapons, and ONE spell per day. Oh, and there was no casting on the defensive, and any round you got hit was a round you couldnt cast. A pc wizard was a party investment of time and effort as they were just freeloaders for the first few levels and everyone knew it!
If you want a good taste of old school, just check out the Swords and Wizardry SRD. Just staying alive is a major accomplishment!
Now, Pandora's box and all, I am not suggesting we go back to the good old days. We have moved on, evolved as it were. Maybe game structure could be simplified though. Maybe it could become less about massive amounts of damage. Maybe monsters could become less "monsters" in the hit point and attack department. (Hey, its actually ok that a well armored pc fighter/whatever can almost become "hit proof"seeing as hes still vulnerable to magic. That's his thing. And he should be able to wade through hordes of underlings, why did every monster have to become "special"?)
And along similar lines, maybe monks and mages should be a little lame at low levels, only to one day blossom into nearly matchless killiing machines at high level.
IDK, it just seems the scale of the game mechanics have grown so much and we all have become so absorbed in the excruciating minutia of it all that we have sort of started missing the point of it all. And the point, to me, is friends getting together and being silly, and killing 1,000's of orcs, and sometimes dying in epic and memorable ways, and sometimes dying in incredibly stupid but funny clusterf#ck ways, and playing til 1 or 2am, and eating boatloads of junk food (well that was b4 we got older and had to start watching sodium and bp and sugar, etc.lol) and telling and retelling stories of past glories til we all know them by heart.
Just my thoughts. Doesnt solve anything. We got what we got to play out our little stories and dreams, namely PF and other systems. But maybe the future will hold better things if we keep discussing and sharing ideas.
Cause I think I just heard someone say weeaboo!
...did somebody say "weeaboo?"
*snrk* Yes!
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But here's the thing: It's NOT SUPERNATURAL IN UNIVERSE. That bit is very important. There's a "scientific" explanation for his powers (and in fact Superman has a massive weakness to magic), that is explained by his physiology and blah dee blah. He is Superman because he is SuperHUman, not SuperNATURAL.
Superman is a magical dude. A magical dude who got his magical awesomeness from being an alien. And its really not "magic". It's really all technical and we shouldn't think to much about it but ...it's "magic" in every way we care about. We can re-fluff supernatural characters in whatever way we want. We can say you got it on with the faerie queen or started down the path to godhood or that you drank some epic tiger blood and are becoming charlie sheen and winning everything. However you want to flavor your magic is fine. The important thing isn't what we are calling it. It's that it's happening.
But the important thing is that it's not magic in-universe.
If Superman were here in the real world, he would be supernatural/magical.
But in the DC Universe, which is not our world, he is just one of many people with a very similar set of powers, some granted naturally (Every Kyrptonian gets Flight/Strength/Speed/Lasers/Etc. in yellow sun, every Martian is a shapeshifting telepath with Flight/Strength/Speed, and so on) and some granted magically (Captain Marvel is magic Superman).
The entire point is that in-universe, these powers are a natural occurrence, as are many other powers. They are not seen as magic by the inhabitants of the world because magic is an entirely separate thing.
In Golarion, magic is also an entirely separate thing.
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I can't kill a big demon with a sword therefore anyone who can is magic, high-level fighters need to hand in their mundane badge now.
I do not think Rynjin´s arguemnt make sense.
Tell me where I lost you and I'll break it down.
But the important thing is that it's not magic in-universe.
True. However, the only reason DC does this is to attach the word "magic" to specific concepts. Concepts like incantations, books, potions and other archaic wizardry stuff. It's a conscious effort on their part to make a distinction in a world where nano-genes exist and being an alien as powerful as a god exists. It's a way to differentiate the different types of magic they have which all have different conceptual ideas associated with them. Everyone who reads the word magic in a DC comic knows what sort of things to expect because of these associated concepts.
I'm actually okay with separating the terms. In fact, I think its needed. We want clear definitions because (and only because) this is a game. Games need clearly defined terms. And while the barbarian that causes local earth quakes and the wizard that causes local earth quakes are both magical, one of them needs to be labelled MAGIC and one needs to be labeled something else because these two mechanics interact with the setting and with other mechanics in different ways. I do however, advocate that we don't call them mundane. Fantastic, extraordinary, really anything but mundane. Because that comes with HUGE conceptual limitations that prevent classes from being able to perform at high level.
Hercules held up the entire world, that's not a mundane ability, clearly he was a wizard.
@WHP, well they ARE called Extraordinary abilities. I think the problem comes from people going "Well, Weapon Training is Ex too, must mean all Ex abilities should be mundane."
@Nicos: Look at it this way (two ways really):
Say I come from a planet where everyone and everything is blind. Then I come to Earth and hear about the wonders of sight and think "Wow, that is magic, I've never heard of such a thing. You can 'see' these 'colors' and find beauty in them? Fantastic". But just because it's something I can't do doesn't mean it's supernatural. It's only supernatural to me because I'm an OUTSIDER.
More down to Earth, look at certain animals: They can fly, stick to walls, change colors, dig really fast, and everything else under the sun. Humans can't do any of these things on our own without the aid of machines. Hold up there's another example. Anyway, just because we can't do it doesn't make it supernatural or magic, it occurs in nature.
Also, machines are a perfect example. What does an airplane or computer look like to someone from the 1600's? Seems a lot like sorcery, yes? But it's not, it's just something he has no experience with and can't create.
Make more sense? We are the blind people. Golarion is us.
Where did I forget that exactly?
Should I sit here and list every possible example of anything that could subjectively be called magic I can think of? Because we'd be here all day if so.
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@AD: I'm sorry, but you can't have mundane-only fighters AND have balance at high levels between them and casters. It simply will not happen. There is literally a conceptual shift past which the fighter cannot compete with being at least psuedo-magical. Hell, if you take that idea to the extreme then all the caster needs to do is go ethereal and spam force spells because a fighter without at least a magic weapon *cannot* hurt ethereal creatures.
If you want the fighter to compete as a pure mundane, you have to stop leveling past about 5 or 6. Anything past this and they will start to slip. This is a perfectly fine way to play. BUT, it is also not what pathfinder assumes, nor is it what pathfinder is designed to be. Pathfinder is designed to start you as human and (by 20th level) land you strictly in the superhuman territory, one way or the other (usually MUCH earlier, even as early as level 1 or 2 for some martial types). If you somehow don't look superhuman at 20th level, you are almost certainly dead because you simply cannot keep up with the rest of the group.
To repeat: What you want exists, but it exists in E6, not in RAW pathfinder. If you want the core rules of pathfinder to have balanced martial/mage dichotomy, you MUST allow the martial to do supernatural/magical things through their sheer awesomeness.
Even now, a fighter can double-backflip in fullplate at high levels. Obviously not possible, but they can do it. BOOM! Supernatural stuff out of the least magical class in the game. However, that is NOT enough to have the fighter keep up. They need more options. They need to be able to hurt you from range by swinging so hard that the *air* cuts you, they need to be able to jump off of surfaces that can't/shouldn't support them, they need to be able to lift a house over their head and crush their enemies with it, etc. Some of this is possible for martial types in certain classes or combinations, but only in one or two ways for a given character. It needs to be SEVERAL ways for EVERY martial character. And it needs to be stuff that the mage CANNOT do (i.e. they're class features). Out with the +1 to hit, in with the cleaving of boulders.
NOTE: Doing this would probably make multi-classing of martial types just as hard as multi-classing caster types.
DISCLAIMER: I don't think this is possible without a system rewrite, but obviously this entire topic is theoretical anyway, so I think that's okay.
Batman's utility belt would contain lots and lots of magic were he in Golarion.
I agree. Batman is an artificer whose infinite wealth can purchase any magical item he needs whenever he needs it. And he also has the power to just be whatever class that would be most useful to him at the moment. It always strikes me as odd when people use batman as an example as what they want their high level mundane guy to be. His superpower is that "there is an app for that" and it happens to be in his belt or whatever.
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Hercules held up the entire world, that's not a mundane ability, clearly he was a wizard.
Er, you mean Demigod. In Deities and Demigods (1e) Demigods broke all the rules that related to PC class restrictions etc. I think Conan would be a better example. He was strong but didn't seem to break any natural laws to achieve is heroic deeds. Elric, now he was a wizard.
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@AD: I'm sorry, but you can't have mundane-only fighters AND have balance at high levels between them and casters.
AD knows that, AD just thinks the solution is that fighters ought to suck - that's not me snarking, mind you, that's actually AD's stated position if you read their posts in this thread. It's okay though, fighters can make up for their lack of actual useful abilities by contributing through "sheer ingenuity, leadership and tactical mastery" - presumably obtained through that high Wis, Cha, and Int, respectively, that fighters are so famous for being able to afford on a 15PB and that the fighter class features reward so well. (You need a fighter to have tactics because wizards aren't smart enough.)
I agree. Batman is an artificer whose infinite wealth can purchase any magical item he needs whenever he needs it. And he also has the power to just be whatever class that would be most useful to him at the moment. It always strikes me as odd when people use batman as an example as what they want their high level mundane guy to be. His superpower is that "there is an app for that" and it happens to be in his belt or whatever.
Batman's utility belt would contain lots and lots of magic were he in Golarion.
Ehhh, that's more Adam West Batman territory than comic/animated TV Batman really.
He's basically a Fighter (Brawler maybe)/Ninja Gestalt with full BaB, ubermaxed UMD and a utility belt full of standard (Shuriken/Exploding Shuriken, Grappling Hooks, Wands of X Generally Useful Spell, etc.) items, but unlimited cash so if he has time to prepare he can get whatever he needs.
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@AD: I'm sorry, but you can't have mundane-only fighters AND have balance at high levels between them and casters.AD knows that, AD just thinks the solution is that fighters ought to suck - that's not me snarking, mind you, that's actually AD's stated position if you read their posts in this thread. It's okay though, fighters can make up for their lack of actual useful abilities by contributing through "sheer ingenuity, leadership and tactical mastery" - presumably obtained through that high Wis, Cha, and Int, respectively, that fighters are so famous for being able to afford on a 15PB and that the fighter class features reward so well. (You need a fighter to have tactics because wizards aren't smart enough.)
Dang, even your not-snark sounds like snark.
But yeah, I don't see how a fighter can afford to keep up their smashing capabilities while also attempt to out-wit someone whose sole important statistic is intelligence. Maybe if there was a "tactics" skill, but then the wizard has enough skill points that they'd probably have that maxed too. To add insult to injury, the wizard could just make a headband for that skill, but the fighter would have to buy such a thing from a wizard.
Ehhh, that's more Adam West Batman territory than comic/animated TV Batman really.
He's basically a Fighter (Brawler maybe)/Ninja Gestalt with full BaB, ubermaxed UMD and a utility belt full of standard (Shuriken/Exploding Shuriken, Grappling Hooks, Wands of X Generally Useful Spell, etc.) items, but unlimited cash so if he has time to prepare he can get whatever he needs.
I have to say, if I were making Batman in Pathfinder, I'd probably make him an expert with 18-20 in every attribute, and he'd probably be level 3 or less. He'd have a ton of money, though.
Batman doesn't fight amazing powerful villains. Most of them would also be just low level Experts, or the rare Warrior (Killer Croc, for example), with level 1 mook assistants.
I have to say, if I were making Batman in Pathfinder, I'd probably make him an expert with 18-20 in every attribute, and he'd probably be level 3 or less. He'd have a ton of money, though.
Batman doesn't fight amazing powerful villains. Most of them would also be just low level Experts, or the rare Warrior (Killer Croc, for example), with level 1 mook assistants.
It really depends. Because he fights some heavy hitters as part of the Justice League and holds his own just fine.
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That's one of Pathfinder's big problems: it really has no support for the "cunning tactician" or "charismatic leader" character types.
Look at the Tactician archetype for the fighter, which should fulfill this. At first level, it's basically a first-level Cavalier minus the Mount, the ability to Challenge, the Order skill bonus, the teamwork feat ability (called "Tactician"), and the heavy armor proficiency. The first time the Tactician becomes able to use its Int in combat is 11th level, with the multi-Aid Another ability - except it still uses a standard action and has such a limited scope (it doesn't work at all unless three of you are all adjacent to the same monster), and such a limited effect for a standard action, that it's virtually never worth using. The first actual worthwhile Int-based ability it gets is at 15th level (grant Int to an ally's attack roll as a swift action 3+Int times per day), but by that point it's definitely too little, too late.
The same is true of the Lore Warden archetype, whose first ability that keys off Int, Know Thy Enemy at 7th level, is pretty much a bardic Inspire Courage that requires a Knowledge check, doesn't provide bonuses to saves, only applies to you, only applies to enemies of one specific type, still takes a standard action (by this level bards have it as a move action), and doesn't scale up in effect at higher levels. So basically it's just kind of bad. Eventually you hit 15th level and it becomes a swift action - but again, too little and too late.
What's particularly frustrating that even the weak abilities these archetypes provide are still nothing more than flat numerical bonuses. They don't actually give fighters the more options they need; they just give them a slightly different way of getting generic bumps to hit and damage (and they still end up being generally less effective at doing so than a straight fighter).
But if we give martial classes interesting abilities, like Book of Nine Swords or 4e did, people complain about how the game is ruined because now it's all garbage MMO anime videogame WoW nonsense that ruins my verisimilitude and there's no way non-wizards should be able to manipulate enemies into moving around because magic should be the only way of doing anything and it breaks my immersion.
The skills system also pretty much doesn't make sense, and it's in the wizard's favor once again. You'd think sitting in a tower studying magic all day would leave you precious little time for other activities, but wizards can become good at as many talents as rogues just by thinking really hard I guess. Meanwhile, it takes a fighter of above-average intelligence to know how to climb, swim, and tumble - even though all of those things should naturally be part of a fighter's daily exercise regimen anyhow.