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Every caster I have ever played that hit high levels (which is a short list, I suppose) has had to keep a special list of "s+~@ that I...And as to teleport, if the fighter can get next to the caster, at that level advantage fighter.
Which is what the boots do.
There is a high rocket tag component at that level.
Too bad that's an astral projection, and he has a clone (in a private sanctum or demiplane that is inaccessible except via wish (EDIT: Unless you're the mage, of course.)), etc, etc.
At high level, you're never actually fighting the wizard when you fight the wizard. It doesn't matter what tactics you use if the person you're fighting is never truly at risk. You could nuke the entire material plane, and most 20th level mages will be fine (upset, but alive).
The very crux of the problem with the non-caster vs. caster fight is that the caster will not only be prepared for 90% of what you can do, but he'll also be prepared to survive the other 10% through various shenanigans like what I mentioned above. Why prepare to avoid death when you can simply prepare to make it irrelevant? This is an option that is simply not available to any martial character.
Now, sure, forcing a mage to take up his clone back-up will certainly hurt his disposition, but it will not end him. (Of course, doing so is tricky if they are actually just an astral projection, which also means no loot for your trouble.)
When was the last time you brought a martial character to -Con only to find out months later that that was just stage 1 of the fight?
Of course, maybe the solution to this is to make it so that mages generally CAN'T use catch-all defensive things like Clone or Astral Projection, but as of now they are options and long term at that.
Funny how people assume Wizards walk around with their buffs on all day and they are just loaded down with Clones and Contingency spells.
I always get a kick out of it.
How does any of those keep a melee enemy from curb stomping you into the ground?
Freedom of Movement is 10 minutes per level so what happens if nothing happens in the first few hours of walking around the city? You going to use up your spell slots for buffs that you may have to cast over and over again? What happens if you are caught just after your buffs expire?
Look, it's easy to say I have such and such buffs up but the fact of the matter is, not all long duration buffs are really going to save you from getting a pounding. Freedom of Movement is great if you are being grappled but it won't save you from being tripped or just being beat to death.
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My greater point is that things that are "mundane" in Pathfinder are not "mundane" in the real world. Falling from great heights and surviving is something regular people do in Golarion. You don't need to be magic to do stuff nobody in the real world can do--commoners can--so, why do people want high level Fighters to be bound by the real world?
Sorry, this is just silly. Now you are justifying bad falling damage rules because Golarion and every other campaign world using the PF rules is super-world by default?
.Where is that stated in either the core rule set or in the campaign world write up that mundane (and I mean really mundane - bums and hobos mundane with npc class levels) npcs are anything more than what would be a normal human?
I think this is all just cover and posturing to explain poorly designed rules. Just seems lazy and it's presuming concepts that have not presented in any of the material.
Every mid-to-high level caster I have has a list of spells they use routinely, including buffs they may cast, alarms they may set, etc.
When I GM and run a caster I do the same thing. My last wizard NPC had a half-dozen spells she cast every day, and some of them she used a metamagic rod of extend to keep them going 24 hours.
A high level caster should also have their "contingency" plans defined as well.
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Every mid-to-high level caster I have has a list of spells they use routinely, including buffs they may cast, alarms they may set, etc.
When I GM and run a caster I do the same thing. My last wizard NPC had a half-dozen spells she cast every day, and some of them she used a metamagic rod of extend to keep them going 24 hours.
A high level caster should also have their "contingency" plans defined as well.
Unless you are using 3.5 material, you are only allowed one contingency at a time and I think only up to a 6th level spell. I dont have my book in front of me at the moment.
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How does any of those keep a melee enemy from curb stomping you into the ground?
Freedom of Movement is 10 minutes per level so what happens if nothing happens in the first few hours of walking around the city? You going to use up your spell slots for buffs that you may have to cast over and over again? What happens if you are caught just after your buffs expire?
Look, it's easy to say I have such and such buffs up but the fact of the matter is, not all long duration buffs are really going to save you from getting a pounding. Freedom of Movement is great if you are being grappled but it won't save you from being tripped or just being beat to death.
It doesn't, but it's just one of many buffs the character often has going. Keep in mind that the Oracle I reference has about 24 strength and 18 con between items and passive class abilities. They're intended to be beating up that beat-stick guy by casting Divine Power during the first round (before anyone gets a full-round), then beating them down in subsequent rounds.
And yes, I DO keep freedom of movement going all day, using all necessary spell slots. The character is level 14, making it require about 8 casts to keep it going all day, but it's worth it to completely shut down things like grab, swallow whole, constrict, difficult terrain, underwater difficulties, entanglement, etc. Also, it means I never have to worry about someone trying to use the "no casting" button that grapple represents.
Trip is relatively irrelevant since the character often has a fly speed and tripping them would be harder than hitting them by far.
My point is that casters get this stuff almost (but not quite) for free, whereas the fighter must invest multiple feats to get so much as a chance at a status effect or a slight resistance to getting one themselves.
Personally, I would prefer if casters had a smaller bag of tricks but could use what's in the bag more often. It would even out the "out of spells" issue early on and prevent the "always have a spell for that" issue at high level.
PS: I'm not arguing that everyone plays casters the way I do, but it's a valid and legal way to play them and (in the case of wizards and witches) it's unreasonable to expect that the character would plan any worse than we could given their ridiculous int scores.
You and I read comic books differently. For me, Marvel scales to a level that would leave what we would consider Epic D+D in the dust.
But Batman is DC.
DC has its fair share of godlike beings, but they're explicitly called out as such like 99% of the time. Battles between gods and monsters are overall fairly rare, since Superman is the most powerful of the commonly seen heroes. Marvel has a lot of superheroes actively working that have lolwtf levels of power (Hulk anyone? Ultimate Universe Wolverine's healing factor?).
Funny how people assume Wizards walk around with their buffs on all day and they are just loaded down with Clones and Contingency spells.
I always get a kick out of it.
What Wizard doesn't?
Let me rephrase: What magic user in ANY game with access to buffs doesn't use them? I know any game I play as a magic user I've always dedicated at least a third of my resources into "Stuff that makes me not so squishy." even disregarding Simulacra and such, what Wizard doesn't walk around with AT LEAST:
Mage Armor
Shield (Cast when combat is likely to begin soon, such as walking into a dungeon area that hasn't been cleared yet)
False Life (or Greater)
Some kind of energy resistance (generally only cast when an energy damage using enemy show sup though)
A few buffs I likely don't know about yet since I'm not that high level
^Those are all things my Wizard uses though, and he's only like level 6. So what could a level 15 Wizard have on him?
Sorry, this is just silly. Now you are justifying bad falling damage rules because Golarion and every other campaign world using the PF rules is super-world by default?
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Where is that stated in either the core rule set or in the campaign world write up that mundane (and I mean really mundane - bums and hobos mundane with npc class levels) npcs are anything more than what would be a normal human?I think this is all just cover and posturing to explain poorly designed rules. Just seems lazy and it's presuming concepts that have not presented in any of the material.
No, I think the falling rules are lousy, but that doesn't mean they aren't consistent with the super world D&D is built on. Falling is just one of many things.
Jumping is a very easy one to compare. Look at long jump world records and what characters can do with ranks in Acrobatics at various levels.
This article explains it in more depth.
It seems to me like maybe the very nature of the game that people are playing at high levels are different. The defenders of fighters seems to still be doing dungeon crawls instead of sieges on adamantine keeps in the shadow realms and are still camping in the woods and mountain tops instead of holding down highly defensible positions with armed soldiers and creatures guarding. They still seam to be asking the rogue or ranger to scout ahead alone instead of having patrols who are organized by the rogue or ranger who act as scouting team coordinator. They seem to think that low level camps and high level encampments are similar. Maybe I'm mistaken. But this really does seem to be the difference. I suppose that's fine. If high level adventures are just low level adventures with pallet swaps that's okay. But when you play the high level game, you need to effect the setting. That means doing more than just swording guys. You to play the travel game, and the social game, and the political game, and the siege game, and all the other games that come with being high level. Not just the combat game.
Unless you are using 3.5 material, you are only allowed one contingency at a time and I think only up to a 6th level spell. I dont have my book in front of me at the moment.Every mid-to-high level caster I have has a list of spells they use routinely, including buffs they may cast, alarms they may set, etc.
When I GM and run a caster I do the same thing. My last wizard NPC had a half-dozen spells she cast every day, and some of them she used a metamagic rod of extend to keep them going 24 hours.
A high level caster should also have their "contingency" plans defined as well.
Yes, but my character can have plans based on that contingency going off. And they do.
From my admittedly cursory glance at the APs and my pretty solid knowledge of two of them, fighting a siege with an army at your back is hardly considered the norm for this game. Homebrew campaigns that's fine, but understand that a LOT of people play the published modules because they're easier to run, and they don't seem to contain that sort of thing at all.
I agree. Batman is an artificer whose infinite wealth can purchase any magical item he needs whenever he needs it. And he also has the power to just be whatever class that would be most useful to him at the moment. It always strikes me as odd when people use batman as an example as what they want their high level mundane guy to be. His superpower is that "there is an app for that" and it happens to be in his belt or whatever.
Batman's utility belt would contain lots and lots of magic were he in Golarion.And this is my point. It is false to say that martial classes don't have magic. They potentially have lots of access to lots of magic. They just can't personally cast spells. They can drink fly potion, they can wear boots of haste, they wield magical weapon and wear magical swords.
They just can't cast spells.
In exchange they get full BaB, d10 hit points, and whatever other class abilities come with the class.
Are there times when this exchange makes them less useful than casters, yes?
Are there times when the d6 hit points and lack of armor are a problem for full Arcane Casters? Also yes.
But I think sometimes people act like a mid to high level fighter doesn't have any magic items.
Now there is an issue, over-discussed perhaps in other threads, about the magic creation system. But the point here is that a fighter/barbarian/etc...is going to have access to magic in addition to the other things they get as a class.
Except the casters ALSO have access to all those magic items, which either make their spells better, shore up those weaknesses you mention, or free up spell slots to further increase their versatility.
So while the fighter types are spending their gold on trying to pick up a few of the casters' tools, the caster is spending their gold on more worthwhile stuff, or on replicating the martials' abilities. And that's before looking at item creation feats that the martial characters don't really get to use.
You don't require any additional rules to run sieges. All the rules you need are right there in the core book. And casters get the abilities they need to handle armies as they level up. Many of the abilities they get in fact are perfect for handling large numbers or enemies. The druid shut down enemy archers with control weather for instance. The actual siege weapon having a -8 penalty in those kinds of sever conditions were not optimal. So the wizard just use major creation to creature less concentrated barrages off falling debris.
That said, I was using the siege as an example. I think that the advocates of high level fighters have removed themselves from being leaders or from having meaningful social interaction or from having travel powers that matter or from participating in any high level aspect of D&D other than small skirmishes. And when asked how they adventure in the plane of fire or how they have underwater adventures or any number of other things that they can't do without a casters assistance (including investing in caster made items), the answer is a bit of sleight of hand, where they kindly remind me that this is a team game as though I had forgotten and then forget themselves that that had not prevented the wizard from being able to perform meaningfully in any of those aspects of the game.
To take another angle on the original topic of why wizards are so powerful, lets look back at AD&D.
The current wizard class, is based off of the AD&D magic-user. At first level the prestidigitator was a total sniveling twerp. 1d4 hp, with a maximum con bonus of +2 hp/level if he can have a 16 or better Con. No favored class bonus, no feats, no nuthin'. He could cast ONE spell per day, and the cantrip wouldn't be invented for years to come. Thanks to his awesome luck of rolling an 18 intelligence he gets ZERO bonus spells. He won't be able to scribe a scroll, or craft anything for 10 more levels. After his one spell, he is tossing darts and getting his head jammed in the toilet by every other class except the monk. Useless!
Flash forward to level five, assuming he didn't get knocked to zero hp and killed by a stiff breeze. If he is lucky he might have 25 hp. He now has a whooping 4 first level spells, 2 second, and finally got access to a single casting of fireball! Yeehaw! However, he has to be very careful and do some volume calculations if he casts it in a confined space, or the reflected blast will end up damaging his companions. In each combat he can contribute something, and dominate 1 or two encounters per day.
Let's jump forward to 15th level. Most of the other classes have been getting limited advancement since they hit named levels around level 10. The druid topped out at 14th level, and even getting past 12th was a 50/50% struggle. The cleric has yet to be able to cast a single 7th level spell, 7th being the highest level of spell available to ANYONE other then magic-users. The 15th level magic-user can cast a single 7th level spell, and will be able to cast his first 8th level spell at 16th level. The magic-user can cast 5 spells of each level up to fifth, and three 6th level spells. The magic user is the only one who can make magic items, although scribing a scroll requires hiring a sage, and going on a quests to gather ingredients, and permanent items require using a wish spell, which only a fool would be crazy enough to try.
To compare, the fighter has been getting 3hp +(1-4 for Con) for 5 levels, and is still swinging his two handed sword for 1-10+5, except now he gets to swing it TWICE/round! He can kick some ass, if the magic-user gives him permission.
Over the years, the game evolved, and the designers realized a few concepts about game design:
- Paying dues sucks - no one wants to spend dozens of game sessions being useless, even if it means they can become gods and make others feel useless later.
- Having spell effects backfire isn't fun. Lightning bolts bouncing back, haste aging you a year, and wishes getting twisted into punishment defeats the purpose of achieving access to these abilities in the first place.
- Really limited spell casting isn't much fun. Only being able to cast one spell per encounter isn't very exciting even if the spell is powerful. Casters want to cast, not fire crossbows and throw darts. Cantrips and various spell like abilities followed. Also, domain spells, school specialization spells, bonded item spells, swapping spells for healing/summoning, etc.
- Magic items are fun. Scribe scroll is available from the beginning of the game, and other items can be made early on. The days of waiting for the highest level, then consulting sages and questing for items are gone.
- Consistency makes the game better. Wizards, clerics, druids, and others basically follow the get-a-new-spell-level-every-odd-level formula, with sorcerers and bards being slight variations. There are no dead levels when advancing. Characters advance at the same rate, and all classes can hit 20th level. 20 is the new 10.
These evolutions were tremendous improvements! Casters now start fairly strong, with lots of spells, spell like abilities, and other options. Their spells don't backfire or have brutal drawbacks. There are four core classes with access to 9th level magic and lots of items as well. Every caster gets more magic every level. It is almost a given then most mid level casters are capable of using a spell, spell like ability, or consumable spell item in every round of every combat.
The problem is that while access to all that magic has been DRASTICALLY increased, the spells themselves haven't changed much, and many have become much better - haste for example. Hit point increases among monsters have kept direct damage/round under control, but save-or-suck magic is as powerful as ever, and no longer a limited resource. The game is now played up to twice the original levels, and spells that were once rare or never seen are now common.
I think the only solution to achieve "balance" without giving non-casters powerful spell like abilities is to drastically limit higher level magic, and keep the almost-unlimited access to spells away from the higher level stuff.
Or just let the other class wish for things and give up on any connection to olde school gaming.
I think one of the major issues is that D&D type games look to replicate feats from novels, video games and movies as options for characters, and magical stuff is far more explicit, while martial superheroics tend to be less obvious. So we get every ability that any caster EVER has used as an option for them in the game, and fairly easily accessibly at that.
That's the other issue, that casters are getting these super-powerful abilities basically for free, simply as a part of leveling-up, but if you look at casters in fantasy sources, you'll note that most display unique powers.
A possible (partial) solution could be removing several powerful spells from casters' spell lists and then including them as options obtainable via feats, or expensive rituals that function as psuedo-magic items, or even just AS magic items--think of the spell pages, but where the only way to gain access to certain spells is through finding a spell page with a particular spell on it.
Nobody got COn bonuses after name level in 1E. Druids could end up with more hit points then anyone!
Kindly note that if I'm going scrying for your wizard at high levels, I won't bother scrying at him...he'll have mind blank or better. I'll go scry for your CLONE.
At which point I'll locate your little plane, either plane shift or t w/o error to it, and set up all sorts of suprises for you the next time you make a visit.
And if you're astral projecting, that means your core body is sitting somewhere not personally defended. Unless you've got some major badassery sitting around, you're vulnerable.
And having dominated minions around you? That's just begging for area dispels to release and turn them on you.
Those kinds of tactics all have weaknesses someone can exploit. A fighter? He gets his friends...just like a wizard makes his friends with dominates and conjurations.
===Aelryinth
1.) "Well a Wizard can beat a Wizard" does not for a good argument make.
2.) They did mention casting Nondetection on the clone.
3.) It's pretty difficult to find something you have no knowledge of, unless you know a spell I don't that doesn't have that problem.
@Shallow: But it's a lot easier for a Wizard to get a hold of you than it is for the Fighter to do so, that's the point.
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@Shallow: But it's a lot easier for a Wizard to get a hold of you than it is for the Fighter to do so, that's the point.
How do you come to that conclusion? A Wizard has to sleep, a Wizard doesn't always win initiative, the Wizard doesn't always have enough buffs up to prevent him from death (Shield and Mage Armor are not enough to stop a fighter), Fighter's do carry magical goods that enable them to battle magic, fighter's have certain feats like Disruptive and Spell Breaker, An archer type fighter could annihilate a Wizard, etc...
Because Fighters can't spontaneously learn to fly and stuff on their own.
How do you come to that conclusion? A Wizard has to sleep, a Wizard doesn't always win initiative, the Wizard doesn't always have enough buffs up to prevent him from death (Shield and Mage Armor are not enough to stop a fighter), Fighter's do carry magical goods that enable them to battle magic, fighter's have certain feats like Disruptive and Spell Breaker, An archer type fighter could annihilate a Wizard, etc...1.)
@Shallow: But it's a lot easier for a Wizard to get a hold of you than it is for the Fighter to do so, that's the point.
None of those things actually counter his point at all. And mentioning Disruptive and Spellbreaker is extra laughable, because they literally do nothing by midlevel (Concentration checks become essentially auto-successes by then).
He said it was easier for a wizard to win than a fighter--he did not say it was impossible for a Fighter to win.
Your response is like if I said you're more likely to roll less than 15 on a d20 than above a 15, and you "countered" by saying, "But you could roll a 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20!"
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Funny how the first people to call Schrodinger's Wizard on wizards being able to fly are also the first people to assume fighters have Disruptive and Spellbreaker. (And presumably the entire Step Up chain, but they're also an archer, and...)
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Because Fighters can't spontaneously learn to fly and stuff on their own.
So?
They have magic items that help them do those things.
Can a Wizard be full BAB on his own? Can a Wizard use all martial weapons on his own? Does a Wizard gain tons of bonus feats on his own? Is a Wizard able to make full use out of Full plate on his own?
Nope.
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Funny how the first people to call Schrodinger's Wizard on wizards being able to fly are also the first people to assume fighters have Disruptive and Spellbreaker. (And presumably the entire Step Up chain, but they're also an archer, and...)
Fighter's gain tons of feats and once that feat is taken it remains. He doesn't have to reset his feats everyday to try and predict what he may be facing that day.
You're not comparing like for like.
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Fighter's gain tons of feats and once that feat is taken it remains. He doesn't have to reset his feats everyday to try and predict what he may be facing that day.
You're not comparing like for like.
You say that like the wizard is weaker because the fighter isn't allowed to reselect all of her feats every day.
Because Fighters can't spontaneously learn to fly and stuff on their own.So?
They have magic items that help them do those things.
Which were made by a Wizard or another spellcaster.
Assuming he has them at all since he might be flat broke from upgrading his weapons and armor so he can actually fight things once he DOES get to them.
Can a Wizard be full BAB on his own? Can a Wizard use all martial weapons on his own? Does a Wizard gain tons of bonus feats on his own? Is a Wizard able to make full use out of Full plate on his own?Nope.
Why do they need full BaB when they attack touch AC or Saves? Same with the weapons. Any given Wizard only needs about 5 Feats to begin with, so what would the Feats help him with? The only one you might have a point on is armor, but at least the Wizard can make Bracers of Armor and the like at half price.
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Because Fighters can't spontaneously learn to fly and stuff on their own.So?
They have magic items that help them do those things.
Can a Wizard be full BAB on his own? Can a Wizard use all martial weapons on his own? Does a Wizard gain tons of bonus feats on his own? Is a Wizard able to make full use out of Full plate on his own?
Nope.
Transformation gives full BAB, so yes to that. Bestow Proficiency gives weapon proficiency, as does a certain ioun stone (forget which one), so yes to that. The wizard can use full plate with still spell as long as they aren't using spells that require attack rolls, but it's admittedly harder, so I'll give that a "sort-of". They really don't need it with all their other defensive spells and bracers of armor.
For divine casters: 3/4 BAB + divine power > full BAB, Bestow Proficiency is also on basically every list but druid, and armor isn't an issue (one feat for heavy armor if they feel like it).
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Using Eldritch Knight, any wizard could drop two levels of spellcasting to pick up +5 or +6 BAB, four bonus combat feats, a good fort save, all martial weapons, etc.
They don't because those abilities aren't actually that important compared to teleporting between planets and stopping time.
From my admittedly cursory glance at the APs and my pretty solid knowledge of two of them, fighting a siege with an army at your back is hardly considered the norm for this game. Homebrew campaigns that's fine, but understand that a LOT of people play the published modules because they're easier to run, and they don't seem to contain that sort of thing at all.
The Kingmaker AP begs to differ.
That's likely the exception. I didn't say they were nowhere, just not the norm.
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Splatbook and 3.5 are dirty words, but if you want wizards to be less powerful, they need more counters. The counters to magic already exist.
Anything that does high enough damage, with a good to hit and a lot of hp can challenge a melee char, or an archer if they take the arrows, get up and bite off their heads. The spellcasters need those type of counters, so as to not seem all powerful. Orcs? The wizard just fireballs them, doing an immense amount of damage in a round, or they seal them up and burn them to death with firewalls, or melt their lungs and faces, whatever. Spellcasters need real counters, it is after all a magical world.
To lower the apparent power of the spellcasters, and wizards, break out the 3.5 monsters that counter them. I am talking nishruus. The more spells you use, the greater your tastiness to the nishruu. High stealth plants with a bunt-load of poison and grapple (Dark Sun has these). Golems in tight spaces with portculli sealing in advenurers, or golems on terrain fragile for the players. The fantastic flail snail is a great counter to some spellcasters (as well as being a problem in close, it isn't called a flail snail because it hands out ice cream), since it re-directs spells, and I was pleased to see PF bring it in, and I've not seen it since. You can also break out the old 2nd ed rules for the flail snail, which actually make it more dangerous if memory serves.
Now SR has almost spread all over, and I am quite tired of it. Not advocating more of that, god no. Monsters in this magic setting need to be of the type, some of them anyway, that feed on magic, that don't SR spells, but which are beefed up and boosted by spells and attracted to spellcasters (calling all nishruus to the feeding trough).
Then magic will be less "I win!" with buckets o' dice or causing saves, and more, oh, magic isn't the answer here. A situation the fighter or melee chars face when going toe-to-toe isn't the answer and THEY need magic support to defeat foes.
Comparing magic versus martial is important. But only in the context of the caparison of players versus expected challenges at any given level. Any change you make that is just a minor adjustment that lets fighters hit wizards in combat doesn't really fix anything at all.
If the game has X + 5 different aspects that it expects the players to interact with and fighters can meaningfully interact with X + 1 number of mechanical aspects and another class can interact with the entire X + 5 but only X + 4 at any given moment and the fighter has no way to determine WHICH aspects he is interacting with while the second class does. Then the second class will remain better at the GAME even if the fighter becomes awesome at both X and X + 1.
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Comparing magic versus martial is important. But only in the context of the caparison of players versus expected challenges at any given level. Any change you make that is just a minor adjustment that lets fighters hit wizards in combat doesn't really fix anything at all.
If the game has X + 5 different aspects that it expects the players to interact with and fighters can meaningfully interact with X + 1 number of mechanical aspects and another class can interact with the entire X + 5 but only X + 4 at any given moment and the fighter has no way to determine WHICH aspects he is interacting with while the second class does. Then the second class will remain better at the GAME even if the fighter becomes awesome at both X and X + 1.
Then you need to flatten it out.
The caster should be at X(v) +4 or 5, with the v part representing the variable suckage and gimps that NEED to be placed back on spells. You want to teleport - risk death, citadel in pocket dimension - cool, you get to make it with a cumulative chance that the dimension gets folded over onto itself after a period of time. Happens in all the stories right???The biggest mistake (and the pro-caster, power-tripper types will say they were a boon) is when they took the built-in controls off the spells.
I would give two s*!@s if the caster teleports all around the battlefield zapping people - if he has a chance of his face melting off from a failed spell or every cell in his body exploding from a bad teleport - be my guest. Fly and get dispelled - have a feather fall ready because you are going to crash. Summon a creature and you just let it die to get you past a garbage obstacle, then you lose access of that creature from your list. You should atone from wasting the resources of the universe on a CR 5 trap that you should be able to easily figure out.
Have all the power you want - with risk. Incredible constant risk. That will balance the class.
101 basics that should be in play but were dropped:
All casting should be full round casting
You take damage - spell is automatically disrupted
Cast too many spells - gain fatigue levels that cannot be magically removed (nice throw back to 1st ed, lolol)
Seriously - approaching it from giving every class X + 1 extra facet to keep up with casters is not going to work unless you turn all classes into casters. Casters have gotten out of control and spell casting and spells need to be smashed down and smashed down hard.
It also wouldn't hurt if they designed martial's outside of the current magic vacuum they occupy. Instead of crappy Bo9S fail quasi-spells use the fighters/martials abilities in their currency - hps, and their to-hit bonuses to generate limited at-will maneuvers.
Want to re-roll a save vs. a spell? - 10 points non-lethal damage, cumulative.
Trade off to-hits for attacks that: dispel spells on targets (w/ melee or ranged), pierce spell effects or barriers and gain the ability to re-roll saves from spells based off of sheer will and depleting the fighters resources - hit points.
Anyway, it's an idea. Personally I think this game as written is beyond saving.
Smash them, yeah! Not a fan of fatigue systems though, but everything else sounds great.
Bottled nishruus.
AD&D, 3 and 3.5 monster. Eat magic, laugh at spells, drain spell slots, can feeblemind with a touch--in brief.
To express my point another way, how common is natural armour? How rare are anti-magic monsters?
More of the latter will make magic less of a winning bet all the time.
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Because Fighters can't spontaneously learn to fly and stuff on their own.So?
They have magic items that help them do those things.
Can a Wizard be full BAB on his own? Can a Wizard use all martial weapons on his own? Does a Wizard gain tons of bonus feats on his own? Is a Wizard able to make full use out of Full plate on his own?
Nope.
Yes they can, there is a spell for that it's called Transformation it changes them to full BAB for it's duration.
As for changing feats on a daily basis that would be an advantage to a fighter so that he could change his feats if suddenly every enemy was flying.
But they have to rely on a spell for it.
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The biggest problem I had was when people would play a Wizard/Sorcerer hybrid and their spells known was the Spell Compendium. It was a wonder how they always seemed to have just the right spell for every occasion.
I started making them give me a copy of their spell lists for the day and I would tick off each spell they cast. I would also keep up with their durations.
One good thing about fighters is that you can learn to play them pretty easily if you're playing for the first time. The reason for this is that they cleverly kept the number of options limited.
Imagine if you try out Pathfinder for the first time, and they say, "Make a fighter, they're the simplest character type."
And then you get into a battle and say, "What do I do now?"
And they tell you, "Well, you can trip or disarm or grapple or power attack or use a dirty trick or overrun or fight defensively or use combat expertise or use anti-magic disruption or use a ranged strike or do a heroic-leap attack or a cleave or a whirlwind strike or a sunder or an area-damage charge or intimidate or perform a dazing strike or a called shot against leg, arm, neck, eyes, ears or wings..."
And the other good thing about fighters is there's something very heroic about defeating a thirty-ton dragon when you're just a guy with a sword.
If you want to play a martial character with supernatural abilities, do; there are plenty to choose from. If you want to play a mundane (yet extraordinary) martial character, play a fighter.
In my experience they are rarely overshadowed by their caster buddies (who have to spend their spare time crafting equipment for the fighter while he's out drinking).
A lot of the things I've read here are about wizards played by the sort of players who know what saving throws a monster is good at. I bet in most Pathfinder games wizards aren't god-like at all.
My experience of playing a high-level (13-15) full caster (a cleric):
I followed my allies (all of whom could inflict good melee damage) around, waiting to see if they'd need a spell cast. After battles I'd heal them with a wand. I had lots of powerful spells, but I didn't usually cast them, because I was saving them for when they were really needed. And since our enemies could be defeated by hitting them with big swords, the spells weren't needed. So what I mainly did was cure negative statuses.
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The amount of damage a high level fighter (or pretty much any non-casting martial class) can do in a round should be able to kill most wizards of comparable level. Otherwise fail non-casting martial class.
A wizard should be able to escape if not killed in the first round. Or fail wizard.
Regardless it is generally a 4 player game. If you read the spells liberally and hand wave the limitations and risks, yes Wizards become over powered.
So if that bothers you, don't do that. It bothers my group, we run spells as written and not as creatively interpreted in the favor of the player, and for the most part it all runs pretty well.
When you run high level stuff, you need a diverse party. The roles change, but there are still roles to be filled. The Wizard still wants the bad guy isolated away from him so he can cast safely and avoid the damage he can't soak. The fighter still can do ridiculous amounts of damage, etc...
Schrodinger's any class is fail in these discussions, and devolving into PvP is fail in these discussions.
It is about what the party, as a group, can accomplish. It is about what roles the party can fill. If I have a party that needs a mage slayer, I'm making the fighter take all the disruptive stuff (or have a monk with similar abilities) because that is what the party needs. If the party needs. If the party needs battlefield control because someone else is removing hitpoints, great.
A well build high level fighter is welcome in any party. A well built high level wizard is welcome in any party.
But both have strengths and weaknesses. A high level wizard is potentially the most powerful person in the game. But they still have 1/2 BaB, d6 hit points, and need to be able to have the room to cast spells to be effective.
Guys can we have maybe like one thread where I don't feel bad for playing a rogue or fighter because this is crushing my self-esteem and really hurting my feelings.
So take some levels in fighter with a side of scout/thug rogue and hurt some right back!
Now I see I shouldn't have written "wizards" on the OP. I'll keep that in mind next time.
The original goal of this subject was to call atention to a very important detail that many people seem to be missing. That having more options are very often more imporant than having bigger numbers. That versatility and utility are usually more powerful than having a single trick, even if you're really good at said trick.
I meant to point out why thing like Gunslingers, Paladins, Pouncing Barbarians, Zen Archers, etc are not even close to being broken or OP.
I also wanted to point out the reason why casters are often considered the most powerful classes in the game. Many people say that's the case, but almost as many forget to think about why that is.
I used Fighters and Wizards as examples because usually Fighters are mostly about having bigger numbers and few tricks while Wizards are usually about having as many different tricks as they can.
I also pointed a few classes that I consider to be very well balanced.
The issue here is not Wizards x Fighters (Although I can see why so many people chose to focus on that... I'll be more careful with my wording next time). This is about game/character/class design. I wanted to bring up the subject and have many views about that topic (options x numbers, as I put it) so that it can help players everywhere, and who knows, maybe even a designer or two. (Although I admit they're probably better than me at this stuff).
I have seen useless wizards and surpisingly cunning and versatile fighters. (Hell, talk to Bob_Loblaw for 10min and he can probably give you a cool and effective Fighter build or two).
But that's not what I wanted to talk about. I'd like to know your views about balancing options and numbers. How to make it fair without making every class feel the same? How to balance numbers with extra tricks? When are number or options too much or too little?
I personaly tend to be very liberal about skill uses. I try to limit the versatility of spell caster by keeping close attention to their limitations. I make feats scale with time instead of needing another 2 feats to work. I try to teach/remind my players of cool and unusual tactics and trick.
I'd like if Fighter had 2 extra skill points and better saves, and if feats were more about surpassing your limits than surpassing limits that only exist because the feats themselves created them (like Strike Back).
But for more options to mean anything, they need numbers. It doesn't matter if you have 100 different choices if all of them are terrible. You can have more options with 2 different and versatile choices than with 200 choices who do basically the same (Imagine the difference between a Sorcerer focusing on Summons and another one focusing on Blasting spells).
- Most martials have the numbers, but they lack versatility.
- Rogues have versatility, but they lack numbers. So their options are limited even with the great number of choices accessible to them.
- Full-casters usually have great numbers and way too many options.
- Some classes, like Paladin, Inquisitors and Bards) have a good balance of options and numbers. They excel at their job and can still help in other areas.
As the game includes more and more variety and different situations, options become increasingly important. As a player skill raises, he learns to make the best use of his options, so they become even more valuable.
What would you guys do to increase the options of mundane characters? (BTW, "get moar magical stuff" is not a real answer.)
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Risk is poor balance in a roleplaying game. Works great in a rollplaying game though. For character development to happen all classes need to have an expected lifetime equal to the length of the game. Each character should have at least a 50% chance of surviving doing their job until the climax of the campaign.
No, magic worked considerably better in older editions and risk only failed when they started slipping in spells with no drawbacks or when DM started handwaving negative risks aside. Risks serve as an excellent limiter of use and abuse. Spells would be used less, which in turn would reduce the "I win" button mechanic which is part of 3rd edition casting.
Casters would still be powerful, but they would be paying for their power. What we have had for the last 16 years or so (this garbage mostly started when wotc took over) is a no-risk, caster entitlement environment. What I am selling is a very bitter pill so I would expect people to attack it, the reality though is as such: the caster vs. mundane paradigm is very broken, PF tried to fix it (not really) and every new spell or splat that comes out starts to roll things back because of spell design philosophy. Namely - no risk casting.
All the over-powered spell nonsense that caster cheerleaders have listed in this thread is not because of the pure power of the spells - but the lack of impediment to use them at will to make some idiotic (yet plausible) scenarios. So you have some very ridiculous combinations, enslaved demons and armies of monster, defense redundancies, summon monster jokes, etc that break the game. The spells - pretty much all of them - need to have a negative hook or cost to mitigate their power from ABUSE.
Also I have to laugh at your role playing vs rollplaying swipe.
What I am advocating is returning risk which in turn enhances stories and plots with traditional fantasy complications: wizard is lost in time, summoned creature got out of control, created golem is acting strange,etc. What you are advocating (current system) is limitless and flavorless casting, with no deviation or story value but retaining mechanical value. I am advocating roleplaying via risk and consideration, you are advocating spells that work in combat sim (aka MMO) style of balance which IMO, is crap. Sorry
What we need isn't less magic, though certain things like save or puppet spells, wingless flight, and teleportation are problematic. What we need is sufficiently advanced technology.
Magic needs to be subject to analysis and duplication through tool use. Get rid of the crafting limits and make it explicit that anyone with the knowledge and ingredients can make a magic item even if they are as utterly mundane as the players. Bring Su consumables down to Ex consumable prices, especially those that serve to counter magic. When dispel magic single use items are as easy to acquire and use as alchemist's fire wizards can be magical and countered rather than be gods or fools playing Russian Roulette.
Disagree - now you are creating another dimension or catch-up mechanic for the mundane classes just to keep up. Magic should be self regulating.
I don't think that after a decade and a half of abuse and overpowered spells that proponents of casters would want magic to return to a risk paradigm, but if you want the game to survive in at least a vague image of its genesis and not mutate into something unrecognizable then magic risk needs to return. That or all the mundanes will be strapped and saddled with half-way fixes and items and will still be playing catch-up with casters. That way WILL NOT and HAS NOT worked when it's been implemented via anti-magic feats or abilities. A dispel magic bomb doesn't compete with time stop - risk of irreversible aging (against a set death age) when you cast the spell does.
So take some levels in fighter with a side of scout/thug rogue and hurt some right back!
Guys can we have maybe like one thread where I don't feel bad for playing a rogue or fighter because this is crushing my self-esteem and really hurting my feelings.
No no I was j/k I don't really have feelings or self-esteem
wait-
Stuff
Okay. You haven't actually countered my point. And I think it was because I was not clear so let me go ahead and clarify. Remove combat from the game for just a moment. For just a few moments we are going to interact with the game world in ways that don't involve stabbing it in the face or setting it on fire.
The game is divided into however many aspects. The number doesn't even matter really. A, B, C, D, and E. A will be combat. Both the wizard and the fighter can do A. We don't care much about A at the moment. And both the wizard and the fighter can do B. But the fighter has no method for participating in C, D, and E. However the wizard does. So you can have things explode in his face all you want it doesn't fix the problem. Because one class has the ability to participate AT ALL and the other does not. Fighters will continue to suck until THEY are changed to allow them to play. Not until the wizard has restrictions. Because those restrictions don't matter as long as he can achieve what the fighter cannot.