the PCs could fix that by simply throwing some oil on the BBEG's body a lighting a match.
even Reincarnate and True Resurrection require at least a finger. by leaving not even a single digit. you effectively negated all ways to resurrect them short of using wish to recreate the body. which requires a 17th level wizard to spend a 9th level slot and those generally aren't guaranteed, even within a metropolis.
"This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."
Abhorrent Actions?
don't push your modern Geneva convention views on my grim and dark fantasy game.
it was considered an honorable act to keep the severed head of an enemy officer slain on the battlefield as a trophy of valor. assuming you slew said officer. it was a symbol of your heroism in times of war.
and burning corpses was especially common, and in a setting where even a single necromancer exists, people would know, that a fully intact body waiting to be resurrected is a body a necromancer can reanimate as an undead horror. so the practice of burning corpses with flint and tinder, or even oil and a match would become commonplace.
acquiring a resurrection would be a race to recover the body before it is cremated or reanimated.
I'm not pushing any morals of any kind. And pretending that the majority of most settings populations (Ebberon, Greyhawk, Golarion, Torial, etc.) aren't going to find bodily mutilation abhorrent is disingenuous. Regardless of what OUR views our. My point is that altering a spell changes the way people behave as a consequence of interacting with that spell. A concept such as "rise from your grave!" is simply too large and too important of an effect for any alterations to its base mechanics to not have an impact on the characters, their challenges, and the setting itself.
For most groups, cremation and recovery races becoming more common IS a major change.
I can almost promise you that if a GM had his BBEG's raised almost every session then the player's would get because they believe on they should be able to do that and BBEG's are supposed to stay dead.the PCs could fix that by simply throwing some oil on the BBEG's body a lighting a match.
even Reincarnate and True Resurrection require at least a finger. by leaving not even a single digit. you effectively negated all ways to resurrect them short of using wish to recreate the body. which requires a 17th level wizard to spend a 9th level slot and those generally aren't guaranteed, even within a metropolis.
Well, regarding that:
The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.An oil fire won't get hot enough to burn bone. A funeral pyre usually won't get hot enough to burn bone. Even if it does, the resulting ash may well be construed by the GM as being "some small portion of the creature's body", since it is.
Reincarnate is an impressive spell, if people don't mind the roulette wheel.
then stoke that oil with some oxygen, alchohol or something. and i wouldn't allow ashes to count for reincarnate. nor would most of the DMs i know. the ashes, were part of the creatures body, but they were burnt at such heats that the DNA is no longer recognizable and they are effectively no longer a valid body part.
and how the hell do you tell one set of ashes apart from another in the cases of mixing ashes? which can unintentionally happen much easier than percieved in a fantasy world.
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I can almost promise you that if a GM had his BBEG's raised almost every session then the player's would get because they believe on they should be able to do that and BBEG's are supposed to stay dead.the PCs could fix that by simply throwing some oil on the BBEG's body a lighting a match.
even Reincarnate and True Resurrection require at least a finger. by leaving not even a single digit. you effectively negated all ways to resurrect them short of using wish to recreate the body. which requires a 17th level wizard to spend a 9th level slot and those generally aren't guaranteed, even within a metropolis.
Well, regarding that:
The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.An oil fire won't get hot enough to burn bone. A funeral pyre usually won't get hot enough to burn bone. Even if it does, the resulting ash may well be construed by the GM as being "some small portion of the creature's body", since it is.
Reincarnate is an impressive spell, if people don't mind the roulette wheel.
then stoke that oil with some oxygen, alchohol or something. and i wouldn't allow ashes to count for reincarnate. nor would most of the DMs i know. the ashes, were part of the creatures body, but they were burnt at such heats that the DNA is no longer recognizable and they are effectively no longer a valid body part.
and how the hell do you tell one set of ashes apart from another in the cases of mixing ashes? which can unintentionally happen much easier than percieved in a fantasy world.
How do you know the spell works off of DNA? Your ashes are still a part of you.
How do you know the spell works off of DNA? Your ashes are still a part of you.I can almost promise you that if a GM had his BBEG's raised almost every session then the player's would get because they believe on they should be able to do that and BBEG's are supposed to stay dead.the PCs could fix that by simply throwing some oil on the BBEG's body a lighting a match.
even Reincarnate and True Resurrection require at least a finger. by leaving not even a single digit. you effectively negated all ways to resurrect them short of using wish to recreate the body. which requires a 17th level wizard to spend a 9th level slot and those generally aren't guaranteed, even within a metropolis.
Well, regarding that:
The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.An oil fire won't get hot enough to burn bone. A funeral pyre usually won't get hot enough to burn bone. Even if it does, the resulting ash may well be construed by the GM as being "some small portion of the creature's body", since it is.
Reincarnate is an impressive spell, if people don't mind the roulette wheel.
then stoke that oil with some oxygen, alchohol or something. and i wouldn't allow ashes to count for reincarnate. nor would most of the DMs i know. the ashes, were part of the creatures body, but they were burnt at such heats that the DNA is no longer recognizable and they are effectively no longer a valid body part.
and how the hell do you tell one set of ashes apart from another in the cases of mixing ashes? which can unintentionally happen much easier than percieved in a fantasy world.
the spell has to have some kind of explanation for how it recognizes a given target. whether through DNA, or a magical serial number of some kind. and even then, it takes a lot of metagaming to differentiate whose ashes are whose. especially in a setting where resurrection is cheap and cremation is commonplace. which would go together perfectly.
i won't buy the common 'a wizard did it' handwave. you must come up with a coherent reason for how a spell that ressurects the dead doesn't react to anything resembling DNA. a Magic Serial Number, or the Soul, which is technically the same thing as either of the two.
To get a fire hot enough, modern morticians use a blast furnace that's more heat than adding oxygen, alcohol, and sodium combined. You have to concentrate that heat, and that takes high-tech equipment. Even today, they still routinely have to crush bone that's left behind when the blast furnace's 1600+ degrees-F don't quite do the job.
As to DNA, it's magic, not bio-engineering. As the saying goes (I believe it's from Full Frontal Nerdity, but I'm not sure): "keep your sci-fi out of my fantasy". I think the line "condition does not matter" from teh spell description trumps real-world genetics question.
For mixing ashes, that's a GM-to-GM call. Personally, it would depend on degree of mixing for my table. I'm a big believer that magic is, well, magic, and that intent is more important than details as to whether or not the genetic sample was contaminated by tree-ash, or bacterial presence. So long as the ash was collected by someone believing the person they're seeking to bring back is there, and that the belief is correct to some degree (the right fire, for example), I'd let it fly. They're already shelling out 1,000 GP, getting a new body, and dealing with negative levels.
Now, burn them to ash and then cast Gust of Wind? Okay, it's bye-bye bad-guy time.
If you want to stop reincarnate, really all you do is turn them into a zombie, then burn the zombie to ash.
"it's magic" is a cheap cop out for people who don't want to explain. recreating a body should be akin to bio engineering. in both, you are creating a body. and magic still requires something akin to a serial number of some kind, whether DNA, the Soul, or some other concept.
look at example material components for core wizard spells such as lightning bolt and fireball for proof that there is science in your fantasy already.
the alchemist and gunslinger, are even built around science.
And by the way, this settles it. My next animal companion is a Hyena.
If they want to reincarnate anybody I've killed, they're going to have to earn it by digging through hyena poop.
i agree with that.
and Reincarnate is only available to one spellcasting class, the druid. and being as naturally oriented as a druid should be. a druid shouldn't offer reincarnation unless you prove trustworthy, and won't willingly put the effort to reincarnate a creature whose sole purpose is to die repeatedly. if a creature is intended to die, they stay dead. unless someone else is willing to resurrect.
there is no way to scientifically justify how a handful of sulfur and bat guano spontaneously explode in such a large radius at such a massive distance. but the 2 components do make gunpowder, and gunpowder explodes.
but an easier to justify explanation for a fireball would be.
by drawing upon the electrical charge within the enviroment with your mind, the same electricity that powers the pulse of all life forms. you use a combination of will power, aided by guiding gestures, and your inhuman skill at manipulating the sea of electrons in the air to gather the charge into one area with the intent to detonate it, you deliberately collide the intense charge with the oxygen in the air, creating the explosion
this goes by the theory that the energy for Chi, Magic, and Psionics is based off manipulating the same electrical charge within the enviroment and refining the energy to create impossible effects. i know it works for healing and evocation, maybe conjuration and necromancy. but it has a few holes.
I was going to say that, but I checked and Witches get it too. At 5th level though. Still probably less common than clerics, unless your villains are witches or druids or are linked one way or another.And by the way, this settles it. My next animal companion is a Hyena.
If they want to reincarnate anybody I've killed, they're going to have to earn it by digging through hyena poop.
i agree with that.
and Reincarnate is only available to one spellcasting class, the druid. and being as naturally oriented as a druid should be. a druid shouldn't offer reincarnation unless you prove trustworthy, and won't willingly put the effort to reincarnate a creature whose sole purpose is to die repeatedly. if a creature is intended to die, they stay dead. unless someone else is willing to resurrect.
Witches like druids, have a tendency of being associated with Hermitry and being not too available in a highly urban environment. the classes are connected in a sense.
your inhuman skill at manipulating the sea of electronsThat statement, right there. How are you manipulating the sea of electrons? What instrument are you using? What medium?
I can replace "electron" with "magic" in every single location and get a more scientific answer.
A scientific answer would explain where you get the massive amounts of energy necessary to contain a 20-foot radius explosion inside a pea-sized ball that doesn't instantly ignite the air around it.
For that matter, where'd the energy of the fireball come from? The electrical field around you didn't suddenly become weaker by several kilojoules, did it? Or take fractions of a millisecond from the life of every being within the area?
it still has holes. but the electrons are intended to be manipulated through will power. i don't personally know what medium a wizard uses to manipulate electrons. you are focusing them with your mind and colliding them with the oxygen to create the explosion.
impossible for humans from our world, quite possible for wizards.
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"My theory is that wizard magic is based on quantum dynamics."
"How? Why?"
"Well, those are two of the holes in my theory."
there is no way to scientifically justify how a handful of sulfur and bat guano spontaneously explode in such a large radius at such a massive distance. but the 2 components do make gunpowder, and gunpowder explodes.
but an easier to justify explanation for a fireball would be.
by drawing upon the electrical charge within the enviroment with your mind, the same electricity that powers the pulse of all life forms. you use a combination of will power, aided by guiding gestures, and your inhuman skill at manipulating the sea of electrons in the air to gather the charge into one area with the intent to detonate it, you deliberately collide the intense charge with the oxygen in the air, creating the explosion
this goes by the theory that the energy for Chi, Magic, and Psionics is based off manipulating the same electrical charge within the enviroment and refining the energy to create impossible effects. i know it works for healing and evocation, maybe conjuration and necromancy. but it has a few holes.
Of course, in-universe the more logical explanation is that the caster in question pulls energy from the Elemental Plane of Fire and shoots a fireball.
All this complication - just eat the enemy or have them eaten / dissolved in a vat of acid / fed to a patch of green slime, the low level stuff is taken care of.
Death in Pathfinder is not as trivial as one might think IMO. breath of life imposes a temporary negative level if it is successful in restoring life to the deceased. Certain 'playable races' cannot be brought back by anything less than resurrection - some cannot be brought back at all. reincarnate is not cheap at all, let alone the two restoration spells and a bit over a week of game time that is required to pass between each casting of the latter. I have a 5th level alchemist PC that is currently languishing under a permanent negative level due to the campaign's pacing requiring me to suck it up and deal with it. -1 to nearly everything and -5 hit points is pretty unpleasant at the low to mid level range. At higher levels the mathematical impact is reduced ... but it's still there.
It is possible to write up an incantation to address the issue - but such incantations carry their own risks.
The tricky part of writing adventure paths and campaigns these days, especially as a publisher from what I've gathered, is striking that balance between "fun enough to push on" and "interestingly dangerous". Campaigns where your PC isn't going to end up as lawn lasagna often elicit boredom. Campaigns where your PCs constantly end up as lawn lasagna often wind up with PCs named after celebrities, landmarks and pop culture or brand name items from 'IRL'.
Apologies for not reading all 172 (or more depending on when I finish with this post). I don't think the problem is with people not liking the current rule system. They buy the books, they play the game, the GM has the live/die choice and people move on.
My Monk died once in the current campaign. We were lower level so we needed the diamond for the raise dead spell and then I had to deal with the negative level(s)
I read on here how people get there characters killed off and they start new ones almost on a regular basis.
Like people have said, if there was an issue with the life death thing, GMs would have used some house rule to make everything okay again. I think if the problem were wide spread it would be all over the boards.
All this complication - just eat the enemy or have them eaten / dissolved in a vat of acid / fed to a patch of green slime, the low level stuff is taken care of.
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i forgot that PF made high level spells more readily available. but 9th level casters aren't a common thing. except in Golarion, where the average hobo or whore is a 2nd level PC classed character, your average dervish is a 10th level rogue and your average lay priest is a 9th level cleric.450 gold pieces minimum for a spell only available in a metropolis requires for the average Joe, a minimum of 3-4 years worth of saving assuming they buy no other luxuries assuming 5-7 gold pieces per week and an average lifestyle. this is just for one raise dead spell.You keep repeating "available only in a metropolis". 5th level spells are available in a Large town with 2,001-5,000 inhabitants.
7th level spells are available in a Large city, 10,001–25,000 inhabitants.
there is no guarantee to find a caster willing to cast a 9th level spell for money in any settlement.It is all in the GMG.
Maybe you should read a bit about Golarion.
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"it's magic" is a cheap cop out for people who don't want to explain. recreating a body should be akin to bio engineering. in both, you are creating a body. and magic still requires something akin to a serial number of some kind, whether DNA, the Soul, or some other concept.
look at example material components for core wizard spells such as lightning bolt and fireball for proof that there is science in your fantasy already.
The material component where Gygax tongue in check jokes. "A penny for your thoughts" = a copper piece to cast ESP. (and explain that scientifically)
One of the basic for magic is the theory that the part is like the whole, so a piece of a person is like having the person, a bone of someone (independently if the DNA is recognizable of not) is like having the whole body. You don't use science to explain magic, you use magic theories to explain magic.
i think PC deaths can be meaningful, they can be remembered and recalled,
their lives and stories can continue to be known by NPCs in the world,
and the presence can still be felt by new (replacement) PCs.
heroic deaths are part of heroism. D&D roleplaying is a co-created story/movie.
restricting a story/film plot so that characters can never die is silly.
if a player is so attached to one specific PC that they cannot roleplay another if the first PC dies,
or that their 'belief' in the gameworld solely hinges on that one PC not ever dying, something is off.
and deaths that seem not so meaningful to that character specifically can still have content as non-meaningful deaths.
it's just another type of plot peak in the ongoing story.
the whole game is set up so creating characters is a plural sort of event. GMs do it all the time.
if the ongoing story is interesting enough, players also don't need to be attached to a specific PC,
they are interested in how the story resolves for it's own sake, and can find a new PC to engage with that.
sure, if a player feels like any PC they make is dropping dead left and right, they don't feel a chance to develop the character.
but likewise if your PC is dropping dead left and right, and happens to be rezz'ed every time,
that is rather reducing plot peaks to perma-blur events, becoming rather monty python-esque at that point.
This. +12
Well, since removing costly components from those spells is only a question of removing a few words, instead of rewriting whole sections, I think it simply is the question if the developers want to do it or not.
Personally, I am all for it.
Well, the personal inklings of a game developer have an astonishing ability to creep into the official rule mechanics of games they develop. As such, the OP wanted to head them off at the pass, before any inklings developed into plans.
In summary: the thread is as much about why the current rules work (more or less) as it is about what you could do instead.
How on earth would posting dozens of threads whinging about how terrible the game is achieve a goal of “heading them off at the pass”? SKR had a good idea, and it was more than just take out the material cost, but of course the OP is ignoring everything else Sean said.
In summary: the Op thinks PF is a horrible game system and he can & has done better, except that he won't tell us where & when, which makes things ratehr doubtful.
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Here's what it all boils down to. Death means that the player has been taken out of the game. The real question becomes how difficult do you want to make rejoining the game and how crippled do you want him at when he finally gets there? All other discussion is really just elaboration on this.After reading SKR's thread on Raise Dead I created this thread to discuss why the push to essentially trivialise death.
In my opinion, death should not be treated like a condition that is easily taken care of. Death should be something that is costly and is hard to come back from. I don't really understand this push for death to become so trivial. Well to be honest, I believe it has something to do with lessening the impact of death because some people find death "not fun" and because theplayer has spent a lot of time creating their character so they feel like they need more protection for their investment. I don't think anyone finds death "fun" but that's the whole point, death is supposed to be unfun and a bad thing.
If the game gets to the point where you have to go through mountains of red tape just do die while a quick snap of the fingers brings you back then I will just stick with what is printed before that and not buy anything else in the future.
Just going by the default, if you don't have the gold to bring the person back then their story has ended and another begins when a new PC is brought in.
That's the name of the default game.
The game's rules on Raise Dead and such are fair because it does give you a chance to come back but only with certain stipulations.
and "will power" is another word for what, exactly, if you can now use "will power" to manipulate electrons, ripping them away from their associated atoms/molecules without creating a significant cascade failure of chemistry and physics in the area, and create a powerful explosion four-hundred some-odd feet away from you?
I like explanations, but if they have more holes in them than saying "it works due to symbolic links between caster, effect, and spell components (somatic, verbal, material, focal) to manipulate the ambient magic of the world into the specific spell he's attempting to achieve", then they aren't very good explanations.
maybe electrons wasn't the right word, i was searching for a word for 'electrical charge in the air', and used the wrong word. and i assumed that because a wizard can use 'magic' that they can use inhuman mental powers derived from learning to utilize a higher percentage of their brain.
but yeah, it still needs the kinks worked out.
the basic premise of the concept is that the same energy that powers all supernatural powers is derived from something similar to electricity, which can be conducted or insulated.
Maybe you should read a bit about Golarion.i forgot that PF made high level spells more readily available. but 9th level casters aren't a common thing. except in Golarion, where the average hobo or whore is a 2nd level PC classed character, your average dervish is a 10th level rogue and your average lay priest is a 9th level cleric.450 gold pieces minimum for a spell only available in a metropolis requires for the average Joe, a minimum of 3-4 years worth of saving assuming they buy no other luxuries assuming 5-7 gold pieces per week and an average lifestyle. this is just for one raise dead spell.You keep repeating "available only in a metropolis". 5th level spells are available in a Large town with 2,001-5,000 inhabitants.
7th level spells are available in a Large city, 10,001–25,000 inhabitants.
there is no guarantee to find a caster willing to cast a 9th level spell for money in any settlement.It is all in the GMG.
those were pulled from the Game Mastery Guide and NPC codex Respectively, which if the NPC codex is useless in Golarion, than it must be not a very good purchase for DMs who don't homebrew.
hell, according to the GMG, your average king is a 20th level aristocrat.
maybe electrons wasn't the right word, i was searching for a word for 'electrical charge in the air', and used the wrong word. and i assumed that because a wizard can use 'magic' that they can use inhuman mental powers derived from learning to utilize a higher percentage of their brain.
but yeah, it still needs the kinks worked out.
the basic premise of the concept is that the same energy that powers all supernatural powers is derived from something similar to electricity, which can be conducted or insulated.
"Electrons" (or, if you look at it the other way, "holes for electrons") is the closest term you're going to get for what you're talking about. You're thinking in terms of lightning, essentially.
Here's the problem, that lightning got its energy due to a separation of charges caused by numerous electrical/chemical/physical interactions building up over time. In other words, a ton of energy got concentrated.
With your explanation, all that energy just appears because the wizard wanted it to. Until you have an answer to "where does the energy come from" and "how does the wizard manipulate the energy/electrical charge with his mind", all you've done is surround the word "magic" with completely unrelated technical jargon.
i'm starting to think it would be easier to call it magic and drop the whole Electron junk. it was a poorly thought out way to explain magic/chi/psionics transperancy to a friend.
If you want death to be non trivial then one of two things has to happen, either death has to become significantly less likely(almost certainly not what you're aiming for), or character creation has to become significantly simpler.
If you're going to kill off a guy every game session don't expect anyone to show up with epic backstories and roleplaying genius or optimized characters you're going to get generic Bob the Barbarian #5 and Wally the Wizard #2.
At least I know I'm not willing to put the 5+ hours of time it take for proper character creation under the current ruleset along with thought time on making him a proper person on some schmuck you're just going to kill off in like 3 sessions before telling me to do it again because death is supposed to be "hard".
i agree with this. if you want death to matter, it has to be either an extremely rare thing that almost never occurs, or you have to make character creation extremely fast and easy. the first of which requires massive reduction of difficulty and the other requires massive reduction of complexity.
If you want death to be non trivial then one of two things has to happen, either death has to become significantly less likely(almost certainly not what you're aiming for), or character creation has to become significantly simpler.
If you're going to kill off a guy every game session don't expect anyone to show up with epic backstories and roleplaying genius or optimized characters you're going to get generic Bob the Barbarian #5 and Wally the Wizard #2.
At least I know I'm not willing to put the 5+ hours of time it take for proper character creation under the current ruleset along with thought time on making him a proper person on some schmuck you're just going to kill off in like 3 sessions before telling me to do it again because death is supposed to be "hard".
This is a big issue from a fun standpoint. If I die mid session, w I am probably done for the night unless my party can raise me. In which case I am out until they do that. If I am lucky, I died near the end of the dungeon and I will be raised soon. If I am unlucky, I may not be raised till the end of the session anyway. If Raise dead were free, its much more likely someone in the party has a scroll of it or will cast it themselves.
I think the best argument for removing the diamond dust cost is that it reduces the time players spend unable to play.
i agree that that is a good reason to remove both the diamond cost and the negative levels. characters with negative levels will only die faster, as will characters with ability damage or ability drain.
The problem with treating death as if it were nothing is that it affects the world. If you have an entire world where people can be ressurrected for a promise to a god, then there are no atheiests, there is no one unaligned with a god. The rules about clerics who worship no god goes away.
Additionally, you have MASSIVE overpopulation, since every time someone dies, they promise to do something for a god and pop back up. Oh, look, bandits, fight to the last man, if we die, the gods will bring us back.
...
Ehhhhhh...
I think it's a different mindset of whether the PCs are the 'heroes' of the story... or just random peasants that the camera happens to point at once in a while.
Having grown up on comics I have ZERO problem with the knowledge that YES, Spiderman, Superman, Captain AMerica have all 'died' and come back.... but Uncle Ben, Capt. Stacy, and random villager #2 does not.
not EVERYTHING that happens to hero #1, will happen to NPC #1. Batman broke his back and was back walking around in a year or two... Batgirl stayed in a chair for MANY years...
Just because good things happen to ONE player... does not mean the world should stop spinning and fall off its axis...
Really, I think it depends on what the DM expects. The fellowship of the ring went the way with only 2 PC deaths, and one came back. SOME DM's on here seem disappointed if there isn't a PC dying every 3 game nights...
If it's a GOOD death, I'm fine with it... If it was a suck death or happens to soon... they yeah, I'd want him to come back.
too MANY ressurections can seem lame and cheap... regardless of the 'cost'. It all depends on the night, the group, and the DM.
Having grown up on comics I have ZERO problem with the knowledge that YES, Spiderman, Superman, Captain AMerica have all 'died' and come back.... but Uncle Ben, Capt. Stacy, and random villager #2 does not.
not EVERYTHING that happens to hero #1, will happen to NPC #1. Batman broke his back and was back walking around in a year or two... Batgirl stayed in a chair for MANY years...
This is actually a good point and it got me thinking a bit. I read a lot of comics too. The reason death is not trivial to superheroes, why the reader cares when they are in danger, even though they almost always come back is that they are defending other people, property, etc. and every moment counts. If everyone is always coming back to life it is going to wreak havok on the setting. So as long as there is a meaningful way of preventing people who aren't heroes and villains form returning to life, then death can be made to have meaning by collateral damage.
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While reading through part of this thread I thought I would answer it from the perspective of a couple of games I have run.
New characters coming back at the same level of the party can make death more of a rule reason for more loot, especially when the *new* character is just the old character with a different name.
I've experienced this including players stating "lets just jump of the cliff here and die so we can respawn in town". it was around this time I re-evaluated the threat of death to player characters.
My last Rise of the Runelords game had many character deaths and by the end of it only one character was a starting character... So that also had an issue on why they were doing the adventure. It ended with a total party kill against the runelord. Was considered a good campaign by the players as it proved that the hero's were not going to win every time.
I run two campaigns now:
Curse of the Crimson Throne - all player characters are related in one way or the other, if they die, there will have to be a funeral.
Rappan Athuk, all characters are enhanced, have extra hit points equal to their constitution, and 32 point buy characters.
In both of these campaigns I have set the following rules:
- All new characters start at 1st level, its up to the players to keep new characters alive long enough to be effective in the game
- Resurrection is at the discretion of the clerics patron, and will require a service for any *non faithful* and will only raise those within one step of their alignment
- Any death is death. Marriage, service, Will, or anything that is specified for the life of the character becomes void when they die. This sets events into action where magic is used to inform of deaths.
- Any forms of returning from death adds the returnee to the god of deaths list to be recovered at the earliest opportunity
- abandoning a quest from resurrection results in the god sending its own agents to claim to lost soul and regain its spent power in the form of killing the raised character
- The afterlife of a character is given up when resurrected
These are all roleplaying issues, that the players have agreed to as a good way to make death have meaning in the game.
Now players don't want to die or be resurrected more than once. While they grumble about starting at 1st level with new characters, they like how the roleplaying has gone around it, and how higher level characters have to look after the new characters to the group.