Fast Healer
You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing.Fast Healing
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing.And it further gives the idea that fast healing is basically like natural healing
Why is everyone focused on the "magical" part, while quoting and even acknowledging this?
The fluff text is not the rules text and we all know it. Fluff is not RAW. The feats triggers are resting and magical healing. Fast healing while indeed natural is still not resting.
Try to munchkin it all you like the reality is its not legal.
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For what it's worth:
This was at ~3rd level, where a strong enemy rolling max damage is still threatening, and I took a couple such hits on my cleric. The witch came up to me (during the fight, and without me saying anything about needing healing) and used his wand of infernal healing.
After the fight, first thing my cleric did was grab the witch by the shirt and say "You will NOT use that dark magic on me EVER AGAIN. Got it?" I then pulled out my wand of CLW to finish patching myself up.
Good roleplaying fun. :D
So since fast healing is just like natural healing, it still triggers since it's "resting" healing.
But are you resting? You are not, and that is when fast healer kicks in.
But again, that's flavor text. By the same token, the flavor calls out spells specifically, not magical healing in general, but I'm pretty sure channel energy or lay on hands would do the trick. Flavor is not the same as rules text.
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points.
I admit, this is something I overlooked, and makes for a bit more of an argument. I'm still inclined to say fast healing is not magical though, as it is extraordinary, not supernatural, and specifically considered 'natural' for most purposes.
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It's interesting how something with two other feats as a pre-req, and a required con of at least 14+ for it to do anything is getting such a response.
I'll just copy and past all the information that seem relevant to the conversation.
Fast Healer
You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Diehard, Endurance.
Benefit: When you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing, you recover additional hit points equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum +1)
Natural Healing: With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.
If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points.
Fast Healing (Ex) A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptional rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature's entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a creature dies, at which point the effects of fast healing end immediately.
The above Fast Healing (ex) is from the bestiary.
we have from eidolons
Fast Healing (6 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race regain 1 hit point each round. Except for where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a member of this race dies, at which point the effects of fast healing immediately end. Special: This trait can be taken multiple times. Each time fast healing is taken, its cost increases by 1 RP.
Natural healing in this game is defined from the start as from resting.
Magical healing is defined as from various abilities and spells.
Even if you want to accept the argument that magic confering fast healing doesn't count as magical healing, fast healing counts as natural healing which is defined as resting...
Which again all dovetails with the feats description "flavor text"
You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing
I'm not sure really how RAI and RAW aren't meeting up happily on this one for you guys.
Try to munchkin it all you like
I resent the implication.
the reality is its not legal.
And I repeat that it's an interpretation.
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I am now imagining a ring of infernal healing. It makes you detect as evil all the time, but you heal with it on. Now pretend that it's cursed so you can't take it off and every smite happy paladin in the area says off with your head.
I have a houserule that tacks-
Non-evil, non-outsiders targeted by this spell are Sickened for the duration.
- to it's description.
That seems to balance things out in my game. It makes the spell a skin-crawling thing that is good for out-of-combat recovery, and also directly gears it toward evil outsiders.
@ lantzkev: The problem in your analysis up there is that you're mixing rules and flavor text together for your interpretation.
Using the flavor text, you're justifying natural healing to account for everything that falls under it, and using the rules text, you're justifying magical healing to account for everything that falls under that.
Cut the flavor text out and you're left with "resting" and "magical healing." No more and no less.
You bolded the natural part of fast healing several times, but Fast Healer doesn't interact with natural healing at all. It interacts with resting. I'm rather inclined to say natural and magical healing are, for the most part, mutually exclusive, so by referring to it as natural, it precludes it from being magical. And natural healing, by itself, does not cause the feat to go off.
I'll FAQ it since it's already here, but it would probably deserve its own thread.
Sean K Reynolds making a ruling that use of an evil spell is evil
Note: SKR has some weird ass opinions on alignment sometimes, so for home games IMO you should take that with a pinch of salt.
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and resting is natural healing.
I digress, I understand the implications of not having things exactly match up, and that even if A=B and B=C, C=/=A in a game like this, but it's really hard not to see it as a mistake when those arguing against it being this way are only able to point out that fast healing isn't defined except in the beastiary as EX, and then it's defined as natural... which again goes back to the natural healing is defined as resting... which again goes back to the you get this feats benefit when resting or magically healing...
If fast healing had said "this healing is considered resting healing and not magical" there'd be no argument against this view. As it stands, if we use transitive properties fast healing reads like this now...
Fast Healing (Ex) A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptional rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature's entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like a full night's rest. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a creature dies, at which point the effects of fast healing end immediately.
I'm not a fan of Infernal Healing either, mostly for the roleplaying reasons. I don't think it has a power problem.
It is one of those take your pick.
Alignment itself differs from Player to Player.
I am now imagining a ring of infernal healing. It makes you detect as evil all the time, but you heal with it on. Now pretend that it's cursed so you can't take it off and every smite happy paladin in the area says off with your head.
Merely being evil (or detecting as such) does not give a Paladin carte blanche to off anybody they feel like. Such an action would quickly make them fallen due to the un-lawfull nature of them killing people without provocation. Remember, they are LAWFUL and GOOD!
if you don't want PCs spending money on bulk purchase of cheap healing wands. you are going to need a lot of house rules. because not even a devoted life oracle is going to provide sufficient healing on their own.
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if you don't want PCs spending money on bulk purchase of cheap healing wands. you are going to need a lot of house rules. because not even a devoted life oracle is going to provide sufficient healing on their own.
This has not been true in my experience.
In my experience, GMs are forced to adjust when the PCs start buying and using wands by the quiver-full. Encounters, IMO, are balanced without that behavior factored in, and I do not believe any designers (from 3E on into PFRPG) intended every single group to buy wands of cure light wounds like they're crack.
Which is sorta the OP's point (in this thread and the other CLWW thread).
wands are meant to be bought only a few at a time.
I honestly have only seen a few parties that had more than 5. 1 Party had 10 but it made sense as they literally wouldn't have any way to obtain more Unless they were found for some reason during the quest.
I have seen parties use CLW Wands for Healing while in a hostile Environ then use Infernal Healing to heal later on at night once they set up camp and could get a guaranteed amount of Healing they needed.
Though if you actually have problems with it make the Wands harder to obtain.
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wands are meant to be bought only a few at a time.
Why? Where does it say in the book?
If I find a guy who sells them, because he has the feat to build them, I could ask him for 30, and he'll have them built in one month. He can do 1 per day with basic Craft Wands. More if he has some extra feats or options to build faster.
So why is it meant to be bought just only a few at a time? The only thing you need to buy more, is time.
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Encounters, IMO, are balanced without that behavior factored in, and I do not believe any designers (from 3E on into PFRPG) intended every single group to buy wands of cure light wounds like they're crack.
Actually, encounters ARE designed with the assumption that a party has access to wands for after-combat healing.
Developer Mark Moreland has said this explicitly about PFS scenarios, and although I don't have a link, I seem to recall an implication that it's the assumption for most/all published Paizo adventures (though I can't speakk for 3PP).
Encounters, IMO, are balanced without that behavior factored in, and I do not believe any designers (from 3E on into PFRPG) intended every single group to buy wands of cure light wounds like they're crack.Actually, encounters ARE designed with the assumption that a party has access to wands for after-combat healing.
Developer Mark Moreland has said this explicitly about PFS scenarios, and although I don't have a link, I seem to recall an implication that it's the assumption for most/all published Paizo adventures (though I can't speakk for 3PP).
AP explicitly mention the Base Value of every town and village where the PC start the adventure. So yes, they are made with the assumption that you use Base Value for populations
if you don't want PCs spending money on bulk purchase of cheap healing wands. you are going to need a lot of house rules. because not even a devoted life oracle is going to provide sufficient healing on their own.
I have to disagree, Lumi. In a Council of Thieves game the only character I can remember while my Life Oracle was hers when she failed the Save versus a Death Attack.
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Actually, encounters ARE designed with the assumption that a party has access to wands for after-combat healing.
Developer Mark Moreland has said this explicitly about PFS scenarios
I'd be interested in seeing that, if you can find it. I don't doubt it, because PFS is a different animal, in that there is no way for a randomly assembled table to be guaranteed to have someone with even a single cure spell available. But I'm interested in seeing it stated explicitly.
and although I don't have a link, I seem to recall an implication that it's the assumption for most/all published Paizo adventures (though I can't speakk for 3PP).
This, however, I don't believe until I see it.
PFRPG, in multiple places, talks about the roles that need to be filled for an ideal group, and one of those roles is someone who can support the group with healing. There is, of course, also discussion of how to work around the exceptions for this assumption of an ideal group in PFRPG, but that's exactly what they are in the baseline game: exceptions.
if you don't want PCs spending money on bulk purchase of cheap healing wands. you are going to need a lot of house rules. because not even a devoted life oracle is going to provide sufficient healing on their own.I have to disagree, Lumi. In a Council of Thieves game the only character I can remember while my Life Oracle was hers when she failed the Save versus a Death Attack.
a life oracle can heal very well in a small party. but larger parties require larger division of resources.
a lot of the groups i have played in, have been of the 6-12 PC variety. where a single life oracle doesn't provide sufficient healing if the DM challenges the actual size of the party.
in a party without cure wands, i recommend the following
1 cleric or life oracle per 4 PCs rounded up. must be able to contribute a minimum of 5-7 level appropriate channels per day. life oracles are preferred.
and at least 1 other PC with access to healing spells per 4 PCs. whether partial caster, non-life oracle, martial cleric, paladin, or druid
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See? It's more of the same old prejudice.
It's never, "Thank you for saving my life."
It's always, "Oh know that was EVIL! How dare you?"
Look I BLED for your healing -- there's gods that are declared good for doing that sort of stuff, but I do it, simply because I'm willing to cut deals with people it's suddenly "evil"
Maybe if good didn't horde all the positive energy and get pissy if someone not good used it we wouldn't have to resort to such methods.
I mean really it's sickening the way people act you spend your time, effort and blood and they complain when it's simply to make them better.
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if you don't want PCs spending money on bulk purchase of cheap healing wands. you are going to need a lot of house rules. because not even a devoted life oracle is going to provide sufficient healing on their own.I have to disagree, Lumi. In a Council of Thieves game the only character I can remember while my Life Oracle was hers when she failed the Save versus a Death Attack.
If I remember correctly there has been at least three campaigns where we ended the campaign with healing items we received in the first book.
There is only one that I remember where we actually went out of our way to buy healing equipment and that was...
In RotRL when most the party was hammered by the undead treant and my wizard teleported to town and traded his priceless one piece marble statue to a temple of Shelyn for a wand of cure moderate wounds, a wand of lesser restoration and a half charged wand of restoration when we were at level 14.
Honestly probably one of my proudest moments in game...
Me: "Yes I'm hear to donate this priceless piece of art."
Initiate: "Just put it over there on the desk." (thinks that small marble statue is nice but not priceless)
Me: "You might want to move the desk once I set this down it won't move again."
Initiate: "Um... let me ask the priestess..."
Priestess: "Okay move the desk"
Me: "There you go."
Effect, the 'small statue' becomes a huge statue that weighs 16,000 Lbs and is a single piece of perfect marble statue.
Me: "by the way think I could get someone to heal up my friends? They suffered at the hands of..."
Preistess: "Yes yes of course just let me get you something to fix that right up!"
That was a good moment in the game.
if you don't want PCs spending money on bulk purchase of cheap healing wands. you are going to need a lot of house rules. because not even a devoted life oracle is going to provide sufficient healing on their own.I have to disagree, Lumi. In a Council of Thieves game the only character I can remember while my Life Oracle was hers when she failed the Save versus a Death Attack.If I remember correctly there has been at least three campaigns where we ended the campaign with healing items we received in the first book.
There is only one that I remember where we actually went out of our way to buy healing equipment and that was...
** spoiler omitted **
Honestly probably one of my proudest moments in game...
Me: "Yes I'm hear to donate this priceless piece of art."
Initiate: "Just put it over there on the desk." (thinks that small marble statue is nice but not priceless)
Me: "You might want to move the desk once I set this down it won't move again."
Initiate: "Um... let me ask the priestess..."
Priestess: "Okay move the desk"
Me: "There you go."
Effect, the 'small statue' becomes a huge statue that weighs 16,000 Lbs and is a single piece of perfect marble statue.
Me: "by the way think I could get someone to heal up my friends? They suffered at the hands of..."
Preistess: "Yes yes of course just let me get you something to fix that right up!"
Was the Moderate healing wand for in combat healing?
Because multiple CLW (for same price) wouldbe better for out of combsat healing.
I don't like it because it's better than the benchmark. CLW is the benchmark 1st level magical healing spell. IW is just better than CLW. Wizards and various other arcanists shouldn't get to have nicer healing toys than clerics.
Cure spells can be used against undead, whereas Infernal Healing actually helps them.
PFRPG, in multiple places, talks about the roles that need to be filled for an ideal group, and one of those roles is someone who can support the group with healing. There is, of course, also discussion of how to work around the exceptions for this assumption of an ideal group in PFRPG, but that's exactly what they are in the baseline game: exceptions.
Someone with a healing wand (either CLW or Infernal Healing) and the spell on their list or a good UMD is filling that role.
I don't like it because it's better than the benchmark. CLW is the benchmark 1st level magical healing spell. IW is just better than CLW. Wizards and various other arcanists shouldn't get to have nicer healing toys than clerics.
CLW is faster.
IH takes 10 rounds to provide the full amount of healing. which is 10 rounds ticked off the duration of any ongoing buffs you have active. which mean those 10 minute per level buffs aren't going to last you the entire dungeon anymore. it even potentially cuts into hour per level buffs at the low levels.
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Encounters, IMO, are balanced without that behavior factored in, and I do not believe any designers (from 3E on into PFRPG) intended every single group to buy wands of cure light wounds like they're crack.Actually, encounters ARE designed with the assumption that a party has access to wands for after-combat healing.
Developer Mark Moreland has said this explicitly about PFS scenarios, and although I don't have a link, I seem to recall an implication that it's the assumption for most/all published Paizo adventures (though I can't speakk for 3PP).
Maybe PFS but not the default game because 3rd edition was not designed with that in mind. Unless you got something that says any different I call BS.
The game is still essentially 3rd edition and the core system hasn't had an overall change except for a few things here and there.
Was the Moderate healing wand for in combat healing?
Because multiple CLW (for same price) wouldbe better for out of combsat healing.
No, it was because that's what the GM determined they had at the time.
I'm okay with the mechanics of infernal healing, but I HATE the flavour. I wish it was anything else but terribly evil. Troll's blood, maybe?
Fast healing/regenerative life force is sort of the druid's schtick, no?
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The vigor chain of spells in 3.5e were a druid thing, too. I'd totally be okay with it becoming nature-themed spell for druids, witches, maybe sorcs/wizards.
What else has fast healing? Hydra? Mephits? Those make sense for a sorcerer/wizard. "A drop of blood from a regenerating creature" seems appropriate.
I am now imagining a ring of infernal healing. It makes you detect as evil all the time, but you heal with it on. Now pretend that it's cursed so you can't take it off and every smite happy paladin in the area says off with your head.
That's a great way to assassinate someone in a pally heavy area. Just "sell" them the ring or sneak it onto their finger. Then collect it after some pallitard decides to smite them in the street.
"Sneak it onto their finger"..
Dude #1: "WOAW I'm wearing a ring all of a sudden. Where did I find this?"
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Dude #1: "Why is that heavy-clad person charging at me, screaming "Evil" at the top of his lungs?"
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Rinse, lather, repeat. ^^
"Sneak it onto their finger"..
Dude #1: "WOAW I'm wearing a ring all of a sudden. Where did I find this?"
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Dude #1: "Why is that heavy-clad person charging at me, screaming "Evil" at the top of his lungs?"
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Rinse, lather, repeat. ^^
Clearly he's going to notice the ring, but its cursed so that's a minimal issue.
And an experienced pally probably won't chase an evil person in the street, but a young naieve none-to-bright pally eager to prove his righteousness just might.
IIRC: Quite a few devils have Fast Healing or better.
I think the main problem is the fact that people tend to just use Alignment as a limiter and don't use common sense.
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IIRC: Quite a few devils have Fast Healing or better.
I think the main problem is the fact that people tend to just use Alignment as a limiter and don't use common sense.
THANK YOU! See? This guy gets what I'm saying.
THANK YOU! See? This guy gets what I'm saying.IIRC: Quite a few devils have Fast Healing or better.
I think the main problem is the fact that people tend to just use Alignment as a limiter and don't use common sense.
Good and Evil are subjective. The Key Part of the Alignment is general. Everything specific is just an example.
I have a LE Sorcerer who is only Evil because he will do anything to get what he wants, but even then he draws the line at the really heinous acts.