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The evil descriptor, well, the PF designers have decided that casting a spell with [Evil] in the descriptor line is not actually an evil act as such.
... What? You gotta be kidding. Anyway ...
Of course you're not the only one to think infernal healing is too much. There's a reason it hasn't been reprinted -- not even in a reworked, better-balanced, form -- since ISWG.
So, in addition to being way overpowered for a first level spell, IH actually discriminates *against* roleplayers. The guy who's trying to play a decent, gods-fearing cleric of Erastil or whoever? He won't let his PC use this. The minimaxing munchkin? Heck yeah, he'll cast this sucker all day long, alignment be damned.
How is this against roleplaying? It goes along a basic trope: evil gives power. That's why it corrupts. It's like Jedi going Sith: the dark said is easier. It's wonderfully roleplaying: if you want your soul to be pure, you have to make some sacrifices. You have to use diplomacy instead of torturing a prisioner to gather info, you can't use poisons, you can't animate dead, you can't summon fiends... and you can't summon the power of hell to heal. What's wrong with that?
Beyond that, this is not a cleric only spell. It's casted by summoners, wizards, sorcerer, witch and magus.
The evil descriptor, well, the PF designers have decided that casting a spell with [Evil] in the descriptor line is not actually an evil act as such.... What? You gotta be kidding. Anyway ...
Of course you're not the only one to think infernal healing is too much. There's a reason it hasn't been reprinted -- not even in a reworked, better-balanced, form -- since ISWG.
While the CRB does not explicitly state it is an evil act, SKR has confirmed that it is an evil act. It came up in the "what is an evil act in pathfinder" thread.
With that noted, I couldn't see ever running a game in which the PCs used this spell for healing (or even actually knew it). It's villain territory.
The evil descriptor, well, the PF designers have decided that casting a spell with [Evil] in the descriptor line is not actually an evil act as such.... What? You gotta be kidding. Anyway ...
Of course you're not the only one to think infernal healing is too much. There's a reason it hasn't been reprinted -- not even in a reworked, better-balanced, form -- since ISWG.
While the CRB does not explicitly state it is an evil act, SKR has confirmed that it is an evil act. It came up in the "what is an evil act in pathfinder" thread.
With that noted, I couldn't see ever running a game in which the PCs used this spell for healing (or even actually knew it). It's villain territory.
My players use it in my Way of the Wicked campaign. But the PC are the villains in that AP :)
EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.
I blame the GM... It is thier game...If they let it it is their mess to clean up and to watch the morale compass of there game.
Role play wise it fits with summoners, wizards, sorcerer, and witch. magus I am iffy on. But it only needs to use by some one that worships
Asmodeus...And you need a sourse of devils blood to cast it. If you do not pay attention to that fact then yes it should break you game...In my game the only one that uses it is cheliaxion summoner with pet devil. And we deal with role play aspet that he is devil worshiper.
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And you need a sourse of devils blood to cast it.
Sorcerer's don't
it's associated with Asmodeus, you need devil blood as a spell component
Isn't this out-dated information, or is it setting-specific? Unholy water is an alternate component in the version I know, and Asmodeus is not mentioned.
you'd be amazed how often there's a devil-blooded tiefling in the party
It's the Tiefling Witch (with an Infernal background) in our party who uses the spell, and only on himself. It seems reasonable enough to me.
EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.
Call me a hater of kitchen sink style gaming, then.
Isn't this out-dated information, or is it setting-specific? Unholy water is an alternate component in the version I know, and Asmodeus is not mentioned.
it's associated with Asmodeus, you need devil blood as a spell component
Are you using d20pfsrd as your reference? They de-Golarionize everything.
EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.Call me a hater of kitchen sink style gaming, then.
I don't understand that phrase (non-english speaker). What does it mean?
It's an evil spell. It's effects are granted from an evil power. This has been confirmed by SKR. A good character would only use an evil spell in the most dire of circumstances.
Good characters routinely using infernal healing is, in fact, a marker for power gaming.
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While the CRB does not explicitly state it is an evil act, SKR has confirmed that it is an evil act. It came up in the "what is an evil act in pathfinder" thread.
With that noted, I couldn't see ever running a game in which the PCs used this spell for healing (or even actually knew it). It's villain territory.
Not according to Mike Brock:
"Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues.
"Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. Using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act."
You can find it at http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz68gc&page=2?Guide-42-changelog#63
Doug M.
Isn't that a ruling for PFSP? PFSP does not handle subjective things like alignment well, so it makes sense that they just sweep it under the rug.
I'll try and dig up the SKR quotation.
Are you using d20pfsrd as your reference? They de-Golarionize everything.
They list the Inner Sea World Guide as source, and the description there is the same.
I don't understand that phrase (non-english speaker). What does it mean?EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.Call me a hater of kitchen sink style gaming, then.
Kitchen sink as in, "everything but the kitchen sink" is a game style in which there are too many options (in some opinions). Party composition ends up getting really stupid (in the opinion of people who dislike this style of gaming) like parties consisting of a Catfolk ninja, Duergar paladin, Orc necromancer, and a Aasimar wizard in a world (most worlds) where such things make no sense or when players turn a blind eye to alignment issues (paladin v necromancer).
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The evil descriptor, well, the PF designers have decided that casting a spell with [Evil] in the descriptor line is not actually an evil act as such. So, your neutral good cleric of Shelyn can cast this sucker all day long.
This is incorrect. A cleric cannot cast spells of alignments opposed to their own or their deity's. That's one of the major things alignment descriptors are for.
Also:
Look, I can sort of understand this argument for arcane spells... But this is *only* a clerical spell.
Um...
"Infernal Healing: School conjuration (healing) [evil]; Level cleric/oracle 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1"
Clerics are the only divine casters who get it, and as I said, their alignment does restrict them on it. Well, oracles can cast it despite being good, I suppose, but if they want healing, they can easily get the entire healing line of spells, same as a Cleric.
Anyway, overall, I like infernal healing. Gives the arcane spellcasters that usually don't have access to healing... access to healing. It's got enough evil mechanics/flavor to make it clear that it is evil to an extent, but I'm glad it has no permanent bearing on alignment (...maybe anyway, since there's differing opinions on that). It's a good roleplay hook with how someone who isn't evil makes use of it without seeming... well, evil.
Are you using d20pfsrd as your reference? They de-Golarionize everything.They list the Inner Sea World Guide as source, and the description there is the same.
Just checked myself, and you are correct.
Nonetheless, it is an [evil] spell and unholy water is pretty dark (although perhaps not as dark as devil blood).
It would be a rare "good" character of mine who would willingly accept healing from "infernal healing," except in the most dire of circumstances with the most dire of consequences should I not accept it. And even then my character would seek atonement.
I don't understand that phrase (non-english speaker). What does it mean?EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.Call me a hater of kitchen sink style gaming, then.
Kitchen Sink style is where you just throw everything in. Vikings running around with samurai, and cowboy-esque gunmen, and androids, who fight dinosaurs and demons, and pennegallan. It comes from the English expression of "Everything but the Kitchen Sink" (as in: I threw everything but the kitchen sink at him, and didn't even scratch him)
Edit: Whale Cancer beat me to it. I type too slowly.
Kitchen sink as in, "everything but the kitchen sink" is a game style in which there are too many options (in some opinions). Party composition ends up getting really stupid (in the opinion of people who dislike this style of gaming) like parties consisting of a Catfolk ninja, Duergar paladin, Orc necromancer, and a Aasimar wizard in a world (most worlds) where such things make no sense or when players turn a blind eye to alignment issues (paladin v necromancer).I don't understand that phrase (non-english speaker). What does it mean?EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.Call me a hater of kitchen sink style gaming, then.
Oh, I see, and I concur.
But that's not what I was talking about. I meant that in Golarion, a party with LAWFUL-Evil or Lawful Neutral characters can be played, with access to Infernal Healing, without meaning they are villains. There's an entire nation of devil-dabblers and a whole organization and its prestige classes that are based on the idea of using devils as a tool to combat chaos and crime. Not necesarelly means they need to party with a tiefling paladin and a catfolk ninja.
I actually have a Halfling escaped Chelaxian slave Summoner who has it as an example of the how his time as a slave in Cheliax affected him. He also has the two doses of unholy water he managed to swipe in the escape for 'just in case'...
If it comes down to he or a companion dying or being 'tainted with evil' he will take the hit karmically.
I don't understand that phrase (non-english speaker). What does it mean?EDIT: Plus in a world where Hellknight and Hellknight signifier are playable prestige classes (specially the orders that make empahsis on the L side of LE aligment), it can be used without being a villain, really.Call me a hater of kitchen sink style gaming, then.Kitchen Sink style is where you just throw everything in. Vikings running around with samurai, and cowboy-esque gunmen, and androids, who fight dinosaurs and demons, and pennegallan. It comes from the English expression of "Everything but the Kitchen Sink" (as in: I threw everything but the kitchen sink at him, and didn't even scratch him)
Edit: Whale Cancer beat me to it. I type too slowly.
I think your explanation was better, however. I ate something funky today and am not feeling well.
It would be a rare "good" character of mine who would willingly accept healing from "infernal healing," except in the most dire of circumstances with the most dire of consequences should I not accept it. And even then my character would seek atonement.
Agreed, on good characters it would probably be rather weird. It's more the neutral ones that aren't too bad with it.
For example, I have had a Neutral character who took Infernal Healing. When one of the party members was rather heavily injured after a battle, he was torn between mentioning that he had a spell that could heal her, versus not wanting people to think he himself was evil, what with the really evil-looking spell. (Side note: the party was split up, so the witch who could normally do some healing was not with us. We'd have been hanging out in town for a week to recuperate without magical healing.)
Fortunately, the character in question was also neutral on the good/evil axis, so it wasn't too bad. Still, makes for some interesting roleplay scenarios.
It is simply a spell that allows an Arcane Caster to provide limited Healing. It is Also one of the better in Combat healing spells one can get.
If you ask me it is fine. I think it being Evil own simply do to the component.
Heck, you think this is bad. 3.5 had a spell in one of it's main books, not a setting book, that granted 1HP/Caster Level and Fast Healing 1 for 1 minute/2 Caster Level. As a Level 1 spell.
I would rather take Internal Healing and use it to where intentions determined whether it was evil or not. So Healing an innocent so they may live another day is good. Healing a Captive so you may torture them longer is evil.
Even if it does slowly corrupt the caster it would not effect the castee. If the GM pulls that they are hate being rude. Especially if your Party has no other Healing.
it would not effect the castee.
The spell description says as much.
"this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment"
I agree with everything the OP said, but I'd add that it makes healing way to easy for arcane casters to obtain -- an obvious no-no.
Sure, I use this sucker left and right in PFS -- one almost has to -- but if it got banned tomorrow I'd dance a jig. Terrible spell.
it would not effect the castee.
The spell description says as much.
"this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment"
Exactly, BUT a lot of people overlook that line.
It is one of the few that can help out in combat. Especially if Fast Healing works the way people seem to think it does.
It's not exactly a in combat healing effect...
It's not bad as in-combat inmunity to bleeding effects
oh snap... just realized this with fast healer and a good con score is pretty damn awesome!
Doesn't work. This spell and things like say the healing judgment grant fast healing. Look up fast healing. It is EX. So not magical. Fast healer feat is specific to healing from resting and magical healing. Fast healing is nether.
That's one interpretation, but I don't think it's that clear.
How is it not clear? Fast healer calls out magical. Fast healing is EX that is specifically not magical. There is nothing vague about any of it.
They worded the feat like that likely so it would not work with fast healing.
That's one interpretation
It's not exactly a in combat healing effect...It's not bad as in-combat inmunity to bleeding effects
That depends on whether you use the CRB or Bestiary definition. I think Elamdri launched a Thread on it.
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rule argument supporting your position stome?
Because the spell infernal just grants fast healing 1, not fast healing 1(ex).
A magical effect (the spell) is causing you to heal.
I agree the abilities monsters have Fast Healing(ex) aren't magical, but since the spell doesn't grant fast healing(ex) but rather fast healing... it's clear it's magical healing.
Magical healing is also not the only concern.
Fast Healer with a Ring of Regeneration. Would that Fast Healing be EX, SU, or SP?
Fast Healing itself is not Magical. The spell grants Fast Healing. It doesn't say it makes the Fast Healing magical.
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I guess then you'd look to the definition of a EX ability.
Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
I'm guessing that since you can dispell it, that you can supress a ring of regeneration that it's not a EX ability.
If it's not EX, and coming from a spell or a magic item... I'm not sure I can find a logical flaw with calling it magical.
Fast Healer
You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Diehard, Endurance.Benefit: When you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing, you recover additional hit points equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum +1).
Fast Healing (Ex) A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptional rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature's entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a creature dies, at which point the effects of fast healing end immediately.
Anyway, my personal opinion is no, infernal healing does not proc the Fast Healer feat. You used magic to get fast healing, but that does not make the fast healing magical in and of itself. The key difference I would call out is that it isn't direct magical healing, such as Cure X Wounds, it's simply a spell that gives you an ability. That ability isn't anymore magical for coming from a spell than it would be otherwise.
I have to side with Darkwolf117.
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interesting point then for you
Natural Healing: With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.
So since fast healing is just like natural healing, it still triggers since it's "resting" healing.
lastly
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points.
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I have a Celish Dwarven Inquisitor of Asmodeous that started out as LN and began his silde to LE by repeady using Infernal healing an as he advanced in levels started using greater infernal healing as he became more dependant on the spell, as we did not have healy sticks in our campain { Council of Thieves] and my character did not like being dependant on our cleric for healing. My GM ruled that his repeaed use of Infernal healing tainted him an he started fallling closer to his Supreeme Infernal Masters alignment and After he prefomed a ritual that brought Casra back form her dimished state to full power MyGM said his slide was complete and changed my alignment to LE.
It was fun watchingthe rest of the parties reaction to his desent. They actual began to fear <prgrym some what. But the Infernal Healing spell was fun to use and very useful. Morgrym always offered to use Infernal helaing in the rest of the party only to have them turn it down over and over again.