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Hey all, I'm currently running Skull & Shackles and one of the players is a Flowing Monk with Crane Style.
I'm not going to go out and say its a 'broken' archetype etc as I'm sure it's not and I'd rather deal with the problem in a constructive way than to simply ban certain things from the game if possible. Besides they're level 5 and halfway through book 2 it's probably a bit late to star ret-conning things.
Anyway the problem is that he just dominates fights (especially boarding actions) in that no-one can hit him. His AC in full defence is close to 30 and he can evade one melee and one ranged attack per round. Not so bad you might think as he's in total defence so can't do anything. But with crane style he can make free trip attacks against people who attack him or anyone he threatens. The party gather near him and the enemies just bounce off them (or more accurately one or two people stand near him while the others are out of harms way).
The build is here if you need specifics.
My questions are
1) am I running the rules for the build wrong?
2) is it really a problem considering that in the latter part of the AP there will be lots of underwater fights and less bipedal humanoids?
3) what can I do to make fights more interesting? Enemy tactics/counter builds etc.
I don't want to take away from the player if he just using clever tactics but I also want fights to be more fluid and fun.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading!
The first question I always ask when someone brings up a problem like this is: "is everyone still having fun?"
Because if the players are having an absolute blast kicking arse and taking names, then maybe it's not such a big problem at all.
However, if they aren't having fun, or if you sense that dominating every fight is going to get old soon, or if you're not having fun (never forget that the GM is also a player at the table), then yeah, it's a problem.
I don't think you're running the rules for the build in the wrong way - it's a build optimized for defense. However, AC isn't everything. How is his CMB? How are his saves? Battlefield control spells can help separate him from his allies. Ranged weapons may also be an answer, as they can target the monk's allies without incurring trips. AoE spells should be useful if they're all bunching up to stay adjacent to the monk.
Also keep in mind that he can only make one redirection per turn. Swarms of opponents should be able to get some hits through.
Quadrupeds are hard to trip, as you mentioned, and some opponents can't be tripped at all (huge or larger opponents, those with amorphous forms, flying creatures, or anything non-corporeal).
Redirection cannot be used more than once per round, and has limitted uses, just like the stunning fist it replaces.
Crane style and deflect arrows are only useful on attacks targetting him, unless he also is a MoMS with Archon style.
If one of your playerd is going full defense in the hopes of creating a minor debuff anf possible AoO to one opponent per round, i think it's safe to ignore them. Also, as their reputation increases, their foes will know to stay out of reach and otherwise ignore this defender.
1. Review your action economy. Both Redirection and Crane Wing consume a swift/immediate action, so you can't use both in the same round. Maybe they could use a move action in place of a second swift/immediate, but I don't know if that rule made the transition to Pathfinder.
2. Second rule of tanking. If the tank has a high AC and immediately trips people who attack him, then enemies ignore him and attack other characters. Tanks need to give opponents a reason to concentrate on them.
Good luck.
1. Review your action economy. Both Redirection and Crane Wing consume a swift/immediate action, so you can't use both in the same round. Maybe they could use a move action in place of a second swift/immediate, but I don't know if that rule made the transition to Pathfinder.
2. Second rule of tanking. If the tank has a high AC and immediately trips people who attack him, then enemies ignore him and attack other characters. Tanks need to give opponents a reason to concentrate on them.
Good luck.
1. Wrong - Crane Wing explicitly states "You expend no action to deflect the attack".
2. Keeping enemies on lockdown in melee is more than enough.
I played a Flowing Monk (dex-based for extra cheese) with Crane Style from level 7-10 and it was easily the strongest character in our party from level 8 on. If your players are doing the 15-minute workdays where the monk is freely able to spam reposition + trip attempts, the archetype is going to be extra powerful.
Tips to stopping a flowing monk with Crane Style? Remove Crane Style from play. My AC was so high that my GM would finally get excited when he would hit me once... and I would just deflect it with Crane Wing and then riposte. Crane Style chain took away some of my GM's fun - and your fun is just as important as your players'.
If they really want a feat along the same lines, suggest Snake Style.
Flowing Monk might not be broken sitting next to a master summoner, a dervish magus, and an oracle of life party; but in a group of not- to semi-optimized party it will dominate very quickly.
Anyway the problem is that he just dominates fights (especially boarding actions) in that no-one can hit him. His AC in full defence is close to 30 and he can evade one melee and one ranged attack per round. Not so bad you might think as he's in total defence so can't do anything. But with crane style he can make free trip attacks against people who attack him or anyone he threatens. The party gather near him and the enemies just bounce off them (or more accurately one or two people stand near him while the others are out of harms way).
Am I missing something that lets him threaten while in total defense?
3) what can I do to make fights more interesting? Enemy tactics/counter builds etc.
Let him do his thing every once in a while, but smart enemies will just walk around him. They don't need to attack him or (assuming he somehow can threaten squares in total defense) stand next to him while fighting his allies at all.
Also, spells screw over AC builds pretty hard.
Flowing Monk might not be broken sitting next to a master summoner, a dervish magus, and an oracle of life party; but in a group of not- to semi-optimized party it will dominate very quickly.
Flowing Monks with Crane Style are not overpowered or dominant--they only do anything when someone attacks an unarmored dude who is doing nothing threatening whatsoever.
Ignore the Flowing Monk and kill his allies and he's screwed.
Oh, and Grapples and other maneuvers don't target AC, so they should work well, too.
Thanks for the speedy and helpful responses all!
@Secane, there's a link to the stats in the OP.
@Dunebugg, thanks for the insight, but I don't want to remove it at this stage in the game if I can help it. The player isn't intentionally causing trouble and he's having fun with it.
In general the game is going fine and everyone is having fun (myself included). Having re-read the rules in more detail (thanks all for highlighting) I've realised some of the limitations. Reposition is 1/round and Crane Wing requires ki points to activate which I didn't realise. I think in a longer adventuring day I should be able to wear down the uses a bit. Also the fact that they both require immediates is interesting so thanks for pointing that out Jubal :D
His saves and CMD are decent but not unbeatable so I'll have a go at grappling/tripping him in return, see how he likes it!
Also the fact that they both require immediates is interesting so thanks for pointing that out Jubal :D
Actually only Reposition requires the immediate, which means only one maybe two per round. Dunebugg corrected my Crane Wing advice.
cheers
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Step 1: Walk around the turtle.
Step 2: Attack the turtle's friends.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit
|
Crane Wing requires ki points to activate which I didn't realise.
It doesn't.
---
Anyway, what's the monk doing to keep the attention of enemies? Why aren't they attacking the PC that seems to be doing the most?
As for hitting the guy... None of the Crane Style powers do anything if the monk didn't fight defensively or use full defense on his turn. So any turn the monk has to take a double move for example, his defenses go down momentarily. It means the monk has to be very careful about how he acts; if he stops for a moment to heal a fallen comrade he's vulnerable, if he moves too fast he's vulnerable, if he's Nauseated by a Stinking Cloud he's vulnerable.... (and if he has to double-move to get out of the cloud he's also vulnerable!)
Crane Wing requires ki points to activate which I didn't realise.It doesn't.
Sorry, I meant elusive target.
In the last few fights, it's just been him and the rogue up front (knife master so destroying everything with sneak attack) while the others are ranged support or sailing the ship. He stands in a choke point and holds off the majority of the foes.
I'm going to watch him closely tomorrow and specifically watch his action uses with regards to immediates and ki. If that all checks out ill try some of the suggestions above.
Some of the next few combats I've got planned will have less choke points and more varied enemies so we'll see how that pans out.
Seriously, here's the solution:
Stay away from the Monk and kill the knife master while staying out of reach of the monk.
The monk can't actually do anything dangerous except prevent and redirect attacks.
The monk can't threaten anything when doing total defense, so standing in a choke point does nothing--just move around him.
Feinting is also a great tactic--he'll be denied his Dex to AC (along with all his dodge bonuses).
Seriously, "tanks" only work if they are scary to ignore (or have some kind of mechanic that forces you to pay attention to them). Your "problem monk" seems very easy to ignore.
Seriously, "tanks" only work if they are scary to ignore (or have some kind of mechanic that forces you to pay attention to them). Your "problem monk" seems very easy to ignore.
Ignoring him is an option I guess. But I don't want to do that every fight or its going to get old for him quickly. I'll certainly try it though, especially when their infamy is higher and people have heard of 'the unhittable monk'. Giving him reasons to move and not use total defence is also something I'm going to try.
"Choke points" on a ship?! Really? They're sailors. Go up the rigging. Go down into the hold. Climb up and over with boarding pikes, boarding axes, and grappling hooks! There are some many ways around tanks on a ship. Think 3D!
In a dungeon, you have choke points. Ships are as wide open as outdoors.
cheers
Gunslingers against monks? Bad idea... touch AC might as well be as high as his normal AC.
Same advice as anyone else: If the monk is not dangerous: ignore the anvil and kill the hammers.
Besides: His saves are good but not a 100% defence. Waste him with several low level magics.
knife master so destroying everything with sneak attack
How is the rogue destroying everything with sneak attack when there is nobodyy with him to be his flanking buddy?
Or do you let the monk flank while using total defence?
So there was a big combat in an open town square. I managed to effectively ignore the monk and hit the others. It felt like a proper fight again in that people were getting hit and using their spells/resources. The PCs won. Only a few NPC casualties.
But the monk player hated it.
And the other players were like '"how do the enemies suddenly know he has a high AC?" etc.
From a mechanical/tactical point of view, ignoring him worked fine. But it just didn't feel right. I think I'm going to have to come up with some specialist creatures/builds to throw into fights. Things that can't be tripped and have multiple attacks.
Swarms.....
Did you throw some bad guys at the monk to "learn" to stay away from him? Depending on the monk tactics, enemy intelligence should affect the learning rate. Meaning animals should maul the monk if he is protecting the party. While dragons might not even look twice at him and target the obvious spellcasters from flight.
I remember a star wars saga game that every single stormtrooper would autofire or throw grenades at us on round one, because the GM knew our characters had high defense. It aggravated us so much we all took a level of scoundrel to take evasion. Don't do this, too.
cheers
I like aid another. PC's forget about it so I have PC's do it. Not in flank position yet, use aid another... gives same bonus as being flanked.
You know that with Crane Style -- that gives him less penalty when fighting defensively or total defense-- and Crane Wing-- one attack that hits per round can be deflected-- he does not have Crane Riposte-- which allows him to make attacks of opportunity on people who attack him?
If he's making attacks of opportunity on people who attack him, he doesn't have Crane Riposte to do that, so he's not playing in the rules.
For total defense--
a flowing monk can attempt a reposition or trip combat maneuver against a creature that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him
If he's taking total defense, he does not threaten and cannot do this.
He can only do each once per round.
And the other players were like '"how do the enemies suddenly know he has a high AC?" etc.
Answer:
"They didn't know he had a high AC. But they didn't consider the guy in no armor with no weapons in a defensive posture to be any kind of a threat."
The biggest question that remains: Is he using defensive fighting or total defence?
So there was a big combat in an open town square. I managed to effectively ignore the monk and hit the others. It felt like a proper fight again in that people were getting hit and using their spells/resources. The PCs won. Only a few NPC casualties.
But the monk player hated it.
And the other players were like '"how do the enemies suddenly know he has a high AC?" etc.
From a mechanical/tactical point of view, ignoring him worked fine. But it just didn't feel right. I think I'm going to have to come up with some specialist creatures/builds to throw into fights. Things that can't be tripped and have multiple attacks.
Swarms.....
As others have mentioned, the players may feel slighted, or puzzled, by the enemies not attacking the monk, but that doesn't mean you were doing something wrong. If they really seem puzzled about it, then in the next fight you throw at them, have the leader of the enemy party calling out orders in a language the PCs can understand (not necessarily all of them), and have him ordering his minions to go for this threatening character or that one, saying things like, "Go for the guy in robes! He looks like a spellcaster, and those guys are DANGEROUS!" or "Go for the mean-looking dude with the knives. No, don't attack that peasant without armor or weapons, what threat does he pose?!"
You could also have the enemies attack him as usual in the first round or two, and have them start avoiding him when they realize he:
A) has a high AC
B) tends to make people very unhappy when they attack him
C) isn't actually posing a threat, since he isn't hitting them (or not for much damage)
That's not metagaming. Think of it this way: if you were in a fight and one guy was approaching you with a sword, and the other with his bare hands, which would you want to try and take care of first? What if you saw the guy with the sword cut someone's head off, and at the same time saw the unarmed guy deflect someone else's attack and trip him? I don't know about you, but I'd be a heckuvalot more afraid of the guy killing people than the one playing passive aggressive.
Something to keep in mind: multiple enemies, or monsters with multiple attacks, are often swinging with a lower attack bonus than those with single big attacks, so they aren't NECESSARILY much more dangerous to a Flowing Crane monk who will be avoiding more of their attacks by virtue of his standing AC, even more of them by imposing the sickened or prone conditions, and then will be able to avoid the one attack that gets through all of that in each round with a Crane Wing. Archers and casters are going to be more effective, though high touch AC is going to be good, and he has solid saves I'd imagine as well.
Reach weapons? Specifically whips and do some tripping. However, you'll have to work out something you can do every encounter that doesn't seem so meta gamey. Multiple foes each attacking a different pc can't be argued with. If they cluster you can also use area attacks, well any range attacks really. Each attacker hitting a different foe means the monk is doing nothing. And after they see him deflect arrows etc they won't fire any more at him. Let him fight a monk sometime as well. Mind control him.
He’s level five. Double-check his game play, as others have shown, then let him have his fun. Soon the tier 1 casters will come into their own and then you will really have some problems. And he’ll be mostly useless.
Have them boarded by a crew of tieflings and half-orcs. Darkness up and see how well the monk-and-ranged strategy works when most of them are unable to see? Or their answer to the unhittable monk could be to bring some mages and have a couple raining magic missiles on him every round.