Hey all! Creepy GM here. This is actually the first time I've heard about any of this being problematic, including from the player in question in my game, which the OP is not a part of, nor has ever been. In fact, she's not once accepted an invitation to a game I'm running, even one offs and hasn't ever mentioned it was because of a dislike of me, personally.
I've lurked on these boards for a few months now, and just happened to come across this thread, and was shocked to find a warped version of a scene from my game. A scene, might I add, that happened weeks, if not a month or two prior to the original post in January.
Now, to get a few things set in stone 100%. I completely agree. Rape scenes aren't cool in a game and have no place at the table. There were no rape scenes in my game. What the OP is referring to, that she failed to mention was that the player/character was being seduced by one of the Sidhe, over many rolls, and through various conversations and after having eaten Fae food and drink, which in all lore makes you more susceptable to the will of the Sidhe and/or having other various side effects of a magical nature. Rape was not a part of this, and the sex scene in question wasn't acted out. It was a fade to black.
What the OP also failed to note was that the character has now fallen in love with the Sidhe in question, because he was an acanthus, and had aspirations to be the master of Time Magic. The Sidhe's name in fact was the equivalent in high speech for time. She was the embodiment of time magic. The Acanthus in question is now on the path to becoming her Knight, a servant in the fallen world to a being in the supernal and last I checked was quite happy with the way the game is going.
The issue that the Acanthus had, was not the fact he slept with (not was raped by) a Fae Lady, but the manner in which the seduction happened, because she, being of the High Court of the Fae, came after him. That was my fault, admittedly. His character in game likes to chase women, not have them...
Interesting to hear the storyteller's point of view. Would like to hear from the player themself, provided they are here to do so.
Yeah, that's still really super not-cool. If the player - or another person in the group - feels uncomfortable with a situation or the content of the game, it can make undermine the whole situation.
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If she had been playing in the game, I think she should have tried to bring this up with the GM. But she was observing, and was offended/concerned in that capacity. She talked to the player involved, and indicated that he was uncomfortable with the situation, but not to the same extent she was.
she then went to an online forum to get a sanity check on her gut reaction.
I'm sure it's not pleasant to find out something you did in a game seriously upset someone at the session, playing or not. But nothing I've seen here really changes my first impression.
maybe after some reflection you really feel you didn't cross any lines. I know for a fact I have former GMs and fellow players that consider themselves perfect gentlemen and pro female equality that have pulled some seriously screwed up sexist (in and out of game) or rape-ish (in game only) stuff.
I'm sure most guys, when they pull something that seriously offends or hurts or frightens a female friend, would like to know. But sometimes it's simply too much to face it head on. It's much easier to withdraw rather than face even more nastiness, defensiveness or further attacks.
If she had been playing in the game, I think she should have tried to bring this up with the GM. But she was observing, and was offended/concerned in that capacity. She talked to the player involved, and indicated that he was uncomfortable with the situation, but not to the same extent she was.
she then went to an online forum to get a sanity check on her gut reaction.
I'm sure it's not pleasant to find out something you did in a game seriously upset someone at the session, playing or not. But nothing I've seen here really changes my first impression.
maybe after some reflection you really feel you didn't cross any lines. I know for a fact I have former GMs and fellow players that consider themselves perfect gentlemen and pro female equality that have pulled some seriously screwed up sexist (in and out of game) or rape-ish (in game only) stuff.
I'm sure most guys, when they pull something that seriously offends or hurts or frightens a female friend, would like to know. But sometimes it's simply too much to face it head on. It's much easier to withdraw rather than face even more nastiness, defensiveness or further attacks.
She wasn't at the game and she got the story second hand...that clouds things a little.
I don't think railroading a PC into a relationship is good even if it is benifiting the character.
Now what happens is this thread will turn into a he said she said mess... People will take sides and there will be much unproductive wailing and nashing of teeth.
If she had been playing in the game, I think she should have tried to bring this up with the GM. But she was observing, and was offended/concerned in that capacity. She talked to the player involved, and indicated that he was uncomfortable with the situation, but not to the same extent she was.
she then went to an online forum to get a sanity check on her gut reaction.
I'm sure it's not pleasant to find out something you did in a game seriously upset someone at the session, playing or not. But nothing I've seen here really changes my first impression.
maybe after some reflection you really feel you didn't cross any lines. I know for a fact I have former GMs and fellow players that consider themselves perfect gentlemen and pro female equality that have pulled some seriously screwed up sexist (in and out of game) or rape-ish (in game only) stuff.
I'm sure most guys, when they pull something that seriously offends or hurts or frightens a female friend, would like to know. But sometimes it's simply too much to face it head on. It's much easier to withdraw rather than face even more nastiness, defensiveness or further attacks.
I agree with this exactly.
If she had been playing in the game, I think she should have tried to bring this up with the GM. But she was observing, and was offended/concerned in that capacity. She talked to the player involved, and indicated that he was uncomfortable with the situation, but not to the same extent she was.
she then went to an online forum to get a sanity check on her gut reaction.
I'm sure it's not pleasant to find out something you did in a game seriously upset someone at the session, playing or not. But nothing I've seen here really changes my first impression.
maybe after some reflection you really feel you didn't cross any lines. I know for a fact I have former GMs and fellow players that consider themselves perfect gentlemen and pro female equality that have pulled some seriously screwed up sexist (in and out of game) or rape-ish (in game only) stuff.
I'm sure most guys, when they pull something that seriously offends or hurts or frightens a female friend, would like to know. But sometimes it's simply too much to face it head on. It's much easier to withdraw rather than face even more nastiness, defensiveness or further attacks.
I agree with this exactly.
I agree too. And I even have a Y chromosome.
This scenario presented itself in a friend's game.
GM: *rolls social dice pool and wins challenge against PC*. I win. Now your character has to have sex with *insert NPC here*
Player: what!?!? My character would never do that.
GM: those are the rules. If I win a roll, you comply.
Player: I'll go ahead and roll with this, but I'm letting you know I'm very uncomfortable with being told what to do like that.Now, I know this is a game I don't attend, but I was invited. All I could think after this player told me this was how violated I would feel if I had taken up the invite and that had happened to me.
Am i being too sensitive?
YES.
...Still, no player should bash any GM in a blog or anywhere else without first having the courage and honor to say it to him face to face first. But that's just me.I agree, as relates to premature bashing. That said ...
... while taking it public without having discussed the matter is, indeed, ill-advised (for reasons that are self-evident and implied by CrystalDancer above), immediately confronting someone, especially face-to-face, on such a matter when you're uncertain and profoundly uncomfortable with what went down might well exacerbate the situation. In that case, seeking the advice of those you trust is prudent. There's nothing wrong, and often quite a bit right, with a retreat to regroup and reassess, after all.
On the other hand, if said GM proves to be as creepy as feared, exposing his/her pathology to the light of day and truth ain't a bad thing at all.
Which is all a bit beside the point since it's a good bet no one would have known who the GM was, had he not identified himself (or at least identified his persona on these boards).
Hardly a name-and-shame situation.
Wow...and the replies to this are even better. Defend thy maiden White Knights....and some of you are actually amazed that women are not welcomed in RPG groups. People unfairly categorize all women because of things like this and the replies here. From what I saw this was an oWoD game. World of Darkness is not Twilight. Its very dark and gritty. Rape, torture and murder are pretty common in that game. Let me emphasize the word GAME because its only a game and they even put forewards saying if you aren't mature enough to stomach the graphic content and simply can't handle it then get out and play something different. Again, people quit being whiny its JUST A GAME. I could see arguing the mechanics the GM used saying you should be allowed to make extended contested rolls or strength/mind checks etc.
This is an issue of where the GM should have cleared the player before joining to make sure they weren't so sensitive they couldn't deal with the game.
This kinda of response annoys me. All too often I see the subject of sex( rather it is rape or not) be shown as a sign of maturity. Which it is far from the truth.
I have seen the subject of sex, rape, torture and murder handle in extreme immature ways. One of the reasons I stay away from White Wolf games is because atleast my area that seems to be the type of players it attracts. (Please note I am not saying all white wolf games are this way...just the ones I have seen)
Conversly not wanting to deal these subjects is not a matter of not being mature either. It being mature enough to actualy make a choice.
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[quote:OP]Would you feel violated?
Turns and looks back at you over his shoulder...
"Thats my secret, Captain. I always feel violated"
(Turns gigantic and green and punches a mecha space duneworm in the face)
The maturity comes in realizing it's only a game. If your character witnesses a rape, is raped, or takes part in a rape it doesn't mean that anyone at the table thinks rape in the real world is acceptable behavior and condones rape. It means you are able to separate what happens in the imaginary world from whats real and leave what happens in the game in the game. If someone's character hates orcs I don't assume they as a player are a racist. If someone in game tries to kill me I don't get fussy and assume that the Player has a vicious vendetta against me.
It is also mature to be sensitive to other people. I know some Vietnam Veterans who can't watch a movie about vietnam. Because of the trama it causes. Same with issues such as rape, torture etc. You can run a game set in the WoD without such issues I would imagine.
Personaly I don't have issues with games that deal with these factors...as to anybody I play with. But if I am playing with somebody who does I would tone it waaay down or eliminate them completely.
There is also a very dangerous assumption that if something contains a mature subject matter...it is mature. That is not the case. We see all the time in teenagers...having unprotected sex, smoking, drinking, etc.
If these subjects are dealt with in a immature way at the table...than it is not immature or oversensitive to get up and leave...actualy I would consider that to be the only mature course of action.
My point I guess is that these things by themselves don't make something mature. Remember gaming is suppose to be fun...what happens in our RL has a effect on what we consider fun.
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I'm wondering what you consider the mature way to rape/murder/torture someone is?
The mature way to handle a rape 'in game' is to make sure everyone in your gaming group is okay with that subject matter before bringing it up. Ditto particularly gruesome scenes of murder/torture.
For some people with trauma of that nature, confronting it in a controlled way can be part of the healing process. That can take the form of tabletop role-playing games for some. But, as with the veteran with PTSD, they have to be ready for it, and they have to know that that is what they're getting into.
The veteran might not knowingly go to a paintball range, but if his friends "kidnap" him in a good-natured way (say for a fun birthday) and take him to a paintball range, he didn't exactly know what was coming. Fault on the friends for putting him in that situation without informing him.
Likewise, for somebody unfamiliar with the particular system or with roleplaying games in general, they can't exactly be expected to read the entire rulebook and find out for themselves that the possibility for that exists. It's on the person who invited them and/or the GM to let them know that the game contains mature themes, including graphic violence, erotic situations, and sexual violence. A person can't make an informed decision to avoid being triggered by such things if s/he doesn't know it's possible. That's like expecting a person to choose to avoid driving over a broken bridge when there's no sign saying "Bridge is out."
The mature way to deal with rape/murder/torture in an RPG is to make sure that people are at least okay with the possibility of it happening. If somebody isn't, then you probably don't want to include it in sessions where that person is playing. From what the GM of this game said of himself, it sounds like he did do that, and that the OP may not have gotten the entire story. However, in a situation as described by the OP, it would be a case of the GM abusing power to override a character's natural inclination. Without actual mind control (ex: dominate person), a successful Diplomacy or Seduction check can only make one severely inclined to take an action. It can't make the action.
Edit: Ninjaed by Ximen Bao.
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I'm wondering what you consider the mature way to rape/murder/torture someone is?
A Vietnam veteran with PTSD probably shouldn't go paintballing as he knows whats involved. Someone who has been beaten/raped etc. and is still dealing with those issues probably shouldn't go into a WoD game which is usually supposed to be a dark, gritty setting. Murder and graphic detail are what you're getting into most of the time.
Just two off the top of my head.
1) Don't just have a rape happen...or a torture scene etc just because. It should have a purpose.
2) Don't treat like a joke. Don't use it as a passive aggressive means to drive somebody from the group.
You are right in RPG are games. It is meant to be fun. Even dark and gritty games are ultimately meant to be fun. You can have a completely dark and gritty game without rape being involved. So why include if a player does not consider it fun?
I'm wondering what you consider the mature way to rape/murder/torture someone is?
A Vietnam veteran with PTSD probably shouldn't go paintballing as he knows whats involved. Someone who has been beaten/raped etc. and is still dealing with those issues probably shouldn't go into a WoD game which is usually supposed to be a dark, gritty setting. Murder and graphic detail are what you're getting into most of the time.
A method of allowing people to establish boundaries as necessary.
It isn't hard to do. Takes about 30-60 seconds to talk about and then you're gaming the rest of the evening. It explicitly gives people permission to tell you that something is upsetting them, making it much more likely that they will be able to speak up before things get too far, letting a game proceed on more smoothly.
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The maturity comes in realizing it's only a game. If your character witnesses a rape, is raped, or takes part in a rape it doesn't mean that anyone at the table thinks rape in the real world is acceptable behavior and condones rape. It means you are able to separate what happens in the imaginary world from whats real and leave what happens in the game in the game. If someone's character hates orcs I don't assume they as a player are a racist. If someone in game tries to kill me I don't get fussy and assume that the Player has a vicious vendetta against me.
Spoken like someone with no empathy. Empathy is what makes us human. We can feel the pain, the joy, or any other emotion of someone else. We as humans learn to place ourselves in the other persons shoes. If the story teller does a good job describing things that can even include imaginary others. In a good movie you cry when someone suffers, you scream when they are attacked, you laugh when they laugh. Did any of these things happen to you? Obviously not. BUT some people (human people with empathy) don't ever want to place themselves in the shoes of someone who is raped or tortured. It has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with humanity.
I'm wondering what you consider the mature way to rape/murder/torture someone is?
A Vietnam veteran with PTSD probably shouldn't go paintballing as he knows whats involved. Someone who has been beaten/raped etc. and is still dealing with those issues probably shouldn't go into a WoD game which is usually supposed to be a dark, gritty setting. Murder and graphic detail are what you're getting into most of the time.
A method of allowing people to establish boundaries as necessary.
It isn't hard to do. Takes about 30-60 seconds to talk about and then you're gaming the rest of the evening. It explicitly gives people permission to tell you that something is upsetting them, making it much more likely that they will be able to speak up before things get too far, letting a game proceed on more smoothly.
Iron, I missed the original post about the safeword/X-card strategy of dealing with player discomfort, but I've seen you're last 2 or so reposts of it.
I think it's a terrific idea, I just wish I'd thought of it myself. Yes, I've been gaming for nearly 40 years and I'm still learning. *sigh*
Also just want to add....maybe I am wrong as I don't play WoD...but I do play Warhammer 40K....which make WoD looks like a g rated disney film. To me a grim, gritty and dark game is more to do with the things that you do as oppose what is done to you. For instance WoD is dark and gritty because you have become a monster feeding of people....not because you might be abused in some way.
I'm wondering what you consider the mature way to rape/murder/torture someone is?
A Vietnam veteran with PTSD probably shouldn't go paintballing as he knows whats involved. Someone who has been beaten/raped etc. and is still dealing with those issues probably shouldn't go into a WoD game which is usually supposed to be a dark, gritty setting. Murder and graphic detail are what you're getting into most of the time.
A method of allowing people to establish boundaries as necessary.
It isn't hard to do. Takes about 30-60 seconds to talk about and then you're gaming the rest of the evening. It explicitly gives people permission to tell you that something is upsetting them, making it much more likely that they will be able to speak up before things get too far, letting a game proceed on more smoothly.
Iron, I missed the original post about the safeword/X-card strategy of dealing with player discomfort, but I've seen you're last 2 or so reposts of it.
I think it's a terrific idea, I just wish I'd thought of it myself. Yes, I've been gaming for nearly 40 years and I'm still learning. *sigh*
Nothing wrong with learning new stuff. I only became familiar with that method at GenCon 2012. The X-card strategy was used by the Games-On-Demand organizers, though I have no idea if they came up with it or not (possible, though I'm guessing they adopted it from somewhere else too).
I also gamed with handicapped people for the first time that trip, it was a little bit of an eye-opener. I wasn't necessarily uncomfortable, but I hadn't really encountered that very much, so it was a learning experience for me. One guy was blind, he could see, but he had some of the thickest glasses I've ever seen, used a magnifying glass and still had to get about 12-14 inches away from the paper before he could see much. I don't know the name for the other guy's condition, but it was a birth defect with under developed bone and muscle. Both were awesome players and I hope I was cool about it, I just wasn't 100% sure on the etiquette involved and what not.
More on topic, if I think I might push a player in a direction they might not enjoy or be comfortable with, I always give them an out. They can either avoid the situation or just address it in a different way if they're reluctant. If they show their reluctance, that's my cue to back off a little. The story in my game is less important than the enjoyment of the experience of those at the table. The people at my table are more important to me, even if they're strangers, than the story I am telling in my game.
Knowledge is learning something every day.
Wisdom is letting go of something every day.
-unattributed quote from somewhere else
