So I got an e-mail from a player who wants to remake his normal Arcane Sorcerer into a Crossblooded Wildblooded Sylvan / Arcane Sorcerer.
His outline is complicated as all get out, and I think he was possibly drunk. Seriously. It is bad. I have an amazing week coming up so I don't want to spend hours and hours pouring over the ramifications to optimize this idea so I can make a decision, but right off I am not seeing what the heck he expects to gain.
Please share any experience, comments or concerns regarding this particular breed of Crossblooded!
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Never underestimate the DMs ability to say no.
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Ask him if it still looks good when he's sober?
I sent him an e-mail asking for the full build. He is usually good about answering, so I expect to have the reply in a day or two. We are not fast character creators. Usually a 2-3 day minimum to rough, and 2-3 weeks to polish. I have no idea why he is rushing this one. I think he saw something not there, because I am looking at the two and crossblooded and not seeing anything special.
I think he will make a gnome. I have only seen him play a non-gnome once in about seven year's time.
Edit: This is a human heavy campaign, so the usual rule of enchantment sucks may not apply.
I thought it had been ruled quite a few times that Crossblooded and Wildblooded didn't mix?
Crossblooded does not replace any class features, it just allows you to combine two bloodlines, and gives you fewer spells, and gives you a -2 to will saves. I don't see any overlap in the two. I will search the forum for any specific ruling on wildblooded/crossblooded though!
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I made a Wildblooded/Crossblooded sorcerer just the other day for Pathfinder Society. The one challenge I had while creating the character was that I kept giving my character too many abilities. Just get feedback on what he is planning for the character at later levels.
I can see why he might do a Crossblooded Wildblooded Sylvan / Arcane Sorcerer. It would give him a familiar of sorts as well as an item bond.
The drawback for the crossblooded is not huge, but it is also not minor:
A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is presented on the sorcerer spells known table. Furthermore, the conflicting urges created by the divergent nature of the crossblooded sorcerer's dual heritage forces her to constantly take some mental effort just to remain focused on her current situation and needs. This leaves her with less mental resolve to deal with external threats. A crossblooded sorcerer always takes a –2 penalty on Will saves.
This means that when the sorcerer hits 4th level, he won't get a second level spell. He will have to wait until 5th. This occurs every time the character gains a new spell level.
Ok, his plan after much phone conversation:
School powers:
1: Kitsune
2: Roc Animal Companion via Sylvan
3: Arcane Bond, Familiar
4: School Power Enchantment.
Undecided on other school powers.
Boon Companion at 1
Spell Focus Enchantment at 3
Greater Spell Focus at 5
Improved Familiar at 7 (undecided flyer to handle UMD)
Scribe Scroll as bonus Feat at level 7.
Craft Wondrous Item at 9
Undecided level 11-19 feats.
Skills: Spellcraft and then alternate between Ride, Handle Animal, and Diplomacy
Headband will go to Cha/Int at level 9+ so will take UMD and K. ??? skills via Headband.
+1/4 DC Enchantment 1-20
stats -- 7 str 14 dex 12 con 10 int 10 wis 20 cha
Level 1, +1 DC Enchantments from race, +5 cha = DC 17 level 1 spells.
Level 20 should hit DC 10 + 10 Cha + 5 Favored Class +1 Racial +1 Spell Focus +1 Greater Spell Focus +2 School Power = 30 + spell level. . .
*+10 Cha based on 20 cha +4 from Levels +6 Stat Item. Does not include possible book of how to win friends and influence people +5 (in which case, last stat point from level 20 to Cha, as well as book so 36 Cha for a +13, or DC 33+ spell level for enchants)
Enchantments and Buff pets. Likes the idea of and I quote "The foxy Enchantress with woodland critters for pets"
I'm getting visions of the Bremer Town Musicians.
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I made a Wildblooded/Crossblooded sorcerer just the other day for Pathfinder Society. The one challenge I had while creating the character was that I kept giving my character too many abilities. Just get feedback on what he is planning for the character at later levels.
I can see why he might do a Crossblooded Wildblooded Sylvan / Arcane Sorcerer. It would give him a familiar of sorts as well as an item bond.
The drawback for the crossblooded is not huge, but it is also not minor:
A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is presented on the sorcerer spells known table. Furthermore, the conflicting urges created by the divergent nature of the crossblooded sorcerer's dual heritage forces her to constantly take some mental effort just to remain focused on her current situation and needs. This leaves her with less mental resolve to deal with external threats. A crossblooded sorcerer always takes a –2 penalty on Will saves.This means that when the sorcerer hits 4th level, he won't get a second level spell. He will have to wait until 5th. This occurs every time the character gains a new spell level.
I'm pretty sure crossblooded / wildblooded together are not legal, because both replace aspects of the bloodline.
This combo is not legal.
Crossblooded is an archtype that modifies the bloodline powers.
Wildblooded is an archtype that modifies the bloodline powers.
Thus, you can not combine the two.
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Mergy/Lab Rat,
The Crossblooded archetype allows the sorcerer to gain both Class Skills, combines the Bonus Spell list, combines the Bonus Feat list, and then states that the player mush choose what Bloodline Power to take when they reach the appropriate level. At that point, the character is something like a dual class sorcerer.
The Wildblooded archetype isn't replacing anything from the Crossblooded archetype. Instead, the player just has different choices that the standard bloodline did not have before
I can see why you might say that the Crossblooded/Wildblooded combination may not be legal for PFS illegal, but I disagree. I think it is legal. Unfortunately, I could not find anything on the forums or in the Ultimate Magic FAQ stating paizo's opinion one way or the other. If you know of a post specific to PFS that I may have overlooked, could you provide a link?
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@Arizhel
Some players think that their animal companions and familiars are an extension of their character, so they can 'do whatever they want with them'. With him having both, this could get a little out of hand in that it could begin to feel like he's running three characters instead of one. It depends on how you run familiars and animal companions. I look upon familiars and companions as very PC-friendly NPCs. They can be easily influenced, but players do not control them. This gives me the option to push back on players when they try to abuse their animal friends.
Also, don't be surprised if he starts using summoning spells as well. If he does, it could lead to an army on the battlefield, which will lead to long combats.
The enchantment aspect shows that he may intend to build his army by charming enemies to his side and then influencing them with further spells or diplomacy.
I would probably not allow a character to have a familiar and animal companion at the same time. It is not because the game rules do not allow it, in so much as the time that it takes up to run each additional creature. One player sucking up additional game time makes it less fun for others. I also do not allow Summoners by the way.
As far as the Crossblooded/Wildblooded, since this is a home game, you should decide if you want to allow the combination of the archetypes. Personally, I would allow them to work together as it gives players many options for character building that they would not normally have. On the other hand, not allowing the combo would make your life easier in that you would not need to wade through insane combinations of crossblooded/wildblooded power lists.
This means that when the sorcerer hits 4th level, he won't get a second level spell. He will have to wait until 5th. This occurs every time the character gains a new spell level.
Remember though that you would still get your bonus spell from high CHA (if you have it).
Normal you get 1 spell, plus your bonusNow you get 0 spells, plus your bonus
("0 spells" is not the same as "- spells")
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I've made the same character that your player is trying to do, except I went full Sylvan bloodline with a half-elf, used the free Skill Focus for a Knowledge skill, and then 'manifested' my Arcane bloodline via Eldritch Heritage at around level 5 or so.
Not very overpowered, but very fun to play. He had a tiger for his animal companion, and a cat for his familiar. There were plans to get Improved Familiar and have the little cat "evolve" into a sylvanshee, but we never got that far.
Enlarge person allowed the tiger to maul the bejeezus out of foes from level 1. Not normally available, but totally doable thanks to Share Spells.
In any case, good luck with your game!
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This means that when the sorcerer hits 4th level, he won't get a second level spell. He will have to wait until 5th. This occurs every time the character gains a new spell level.Remember though that you would still get your bonus spell from high CHA (if you have it).
Normal you get 1 spell, plus your bonus
Now you get 0 spells, plus your bonus("0 spells" is not the same as "- spells")
Hey Steve, charisma affects 'Spells per Day', not the 'Known Spells'. So, when the Crossblooded Sorcerer hits 4th level, he will be able to cast second level spells, but will not know any. Once he hits 5th level, he will know 1 second level spell.
He just wants a familiar and an animal companion, I'd say that it's fine.
I always make all Animal Companions use Handle Animal to compel their companion (with a +4 to Handle Animal fro Link) If they beat the DC, the animal does as instructed, otherwise it does something else (usually it moves to the controller, and looks at them in a confused manner).
Familiars do not have a Handle Familiar skill, so I generally let them run a familiar as they would another character.
Summons do what they were summoned to do (ex. attack that particular foe) after that task is complete, the summon is done unless the summoner has means to compel the summoned creature (speaks their language or handle animal skill) to take on additional tasks.
We have had master summoners, conjuration focused wizards and sorcerers, and malkoverners. We are all way to used to the slog of summons. On the bright side, we all also know the creatures, the limitations, and all that so it goes a LOT faster than you would think. No one ever gets to spend 10 minutes with the Bestiary picking a creature.
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Aside from the fact that Wildblooded/crossblooded is not legal (both modify the same class feature), I would not let anyone crossblood only ONE of his two wildblooded archetypes.
In any case, since it's for a homegame you're perfectly able to allow it yourself.
RedDogMT: Be very careful when bringing your character to conventions, lest a GM rule it not legal.
Mergy/Lab Rat,
The Crossblooded archetype allows the sorcerer to gain both Class Skills, combines the Bonus Spell list, combines the Bonus Feat list, and then states that the player mush choose what Bloodline Power to take when they reach the appropriate level. At that point, the character is something like a dual class sorcerer.
The Wildblooded archetype isn't replacing anything from the Crossblooded archetype. Instead, the player just has different choices that the standard bloodline did not have before
I can see why you might say that the Crossblooded/Wildblooded combination may not be legal for PFS illegal, but I disagree. I think it is legal. Unfortunately, I could not find anything on the forums or in the Ultimate Magic FAQ stating paizo's opinion one way or the other. If you know of a post specific to PFS that I may have overlooked, could you provide a link?
Mike Brock has specifically said that Crossblooded CAN NOT be combined with Wildblooded. Thus it is officially illegal in PFS.
Link to Mike's PostYou may get away with it now but you are going to come across a table where the GM knows the ruling. You might want to start rebuilding that character.
I spoke to him, with all this info, and he has decided to go Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage to get the Arcane parts he wanted. Decided that:
1) Making up for the loss of a spell known would take Expanded Arcana at levels 6, 6, 8, 10 ... to make up for the loss of a spell known. Cost (8 Feats)
2) Making up for -2 Will Save would cost 1 Feat
Total Feats needed to overcome losses incurred by Crossblooded = 9
1) Eldritch Heritage line takes 3 (Heritage, Improved, Greater) feats Plus Skill Focus (Class Skill) for a total of 4 feats needed.
Total Feats needed to get the same benefits = 4
Cost Benefit Analysis wins out, and it is settled!
Thanks!!
he has decided to go Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage to get the Arcane parts he wanted
This opens up a whole new world of arguments... but there are literally dozens of threads for that already.
he has decided to go Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage to get the Arcane parts he wantedThis opens up a whole new world of arguments... but there are literally dozens of threads for that already.
How is there any arguement about this? Sylvan going into arcane with eldritch hertitage is prefectly fine and there is nothing even remotely sketchy about it.
Eldiritch heritage never gives you the bloodline arcana, nor does it put the skill for the bloodline in class, though the skill focus feat makes up for that.
That much being said, if he doesn't need the bloodline arcana this is definitely the way to go.
Mike Brock has specifically said that Crossblooded CAN NOT be combined with Wildblooded. Thus it is officially illegal in PFS.
Link to Mike's Post
You may get away with it now but you are going to come across a table where the GM knows the ruling. You might want to start rebuilding that character.
Seems rather arbitrary as no real reason whatsoever was given besides slight wording issues; don't know why anyone would let a PFS ruling decide anything in their home game to be honest.
How is there any arguement about this? Sylvan going into arcane with eldritch hertitage is prefectly fine and there is nothing even remotely sketchy about it.he has decided to go Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage to get the Arcane parts he wantedThis opens up a whole new world of arguments... but there are literally dozens of threads for that already.
Ignore me, I read that backwards.
Eldritch Heritage: [snip]
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities. [emphasis added]
Bloodline Powers: Magic comes naturally to you, but as you gain levels you must take care to prevent the power from overwhelming you.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
Seems legit to me.
Seems rather arbitrary as no real reason whatsoever was given besides slight wording issues; don't know why anyone would let a PFS ruling decide anything in their home game to be honest.
Mike Brock has specifically said that Crossblooded CAN NOT be combined with Wildblooded. Thus it is officially illegal in PFS.
Link to Mike's Post
You may get away with it now but you are going to come across a table where the GM knows the ruling. You might want to start rebuilding that character.
We are not telling the OP that it's illegal based upon a PFS ruling. The OP is running a home game it is their decision as to how to interpret/ignore the rules. I was responding to another person who has this combination in PFS and asked for a link to prove our point.
I don't see a big problem with crossblooded/wildblooded to be honest, but I suspect that Paizo hasn't playtested those combos. Crossblooded is pretty expensive to begin with though.
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Mike Brock has specifically said that Crossblooded CAN NOT be combined with Wildblooded. Thus it is officially illegal in PFS.
Link to Mike's Post
You may get away with it now but you are going to come across a table where the GM knows the ruling. You might want to start rebuilding that character.We are not telling the OP that it's illegal based upon a PFS ruling. The OP is running a home game it is their decision as to how to interpret/ignore the rules. I was responding to another person who has this combination in PFS and asked for a link to prove our point.
It was not my intention to play an illegal character for PFS. I stand corrected. Thanks for the link.
It was not my intention to play an illegal character for PFS. I stand corrected. Thanks for the link.Mike Brock has specifically said that Crossblooded CAN NOT be combined with Wildblooded. Thus it is officially illegal in PFS.
Link to Mike's Post
You may get away with it now but you are going to come across a table where the GM knows the ruling. You might want to start rebuilding that character.We are not telling the OP that it's illegal based upon a PFS ruling. The OP is running a home game it is their decision as to how to interpret/ignore the rules. I was responding to another person who has this combination in PFS and asked for a link to prove our point.
No problem. Good luck with the rebuild.
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FAQ'ed 10/23/2013 - Crossblooded + Wildblooded not allowed (without GM permission)
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?