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Quick Legal Build Questions for PFS


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Some build questions have come up in another thread on what is or is not legal for PFS.

1) Is ARG legal for PFS?
2) If yes, is Tiefling legal?
3) If also yes, are the Claws and Vestigal Wings alternate racial traits legal?

4) Is sorcerer crossblooded/wildblooded (specifically draconic and sage bloodlines) legal for PFS?
5) Is crossblooded legal for going into the Dragon Disciple prestige class?

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

1 person marked this as a favorite.

PFS uses the Additional Resources document to let you know everything that is legal outside the Core Rulebook and the PFS Field guide. All the details you are looking for are there

link to additional resources

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Carlos beat me to it. Parts of the ARG are legal but other parts are not. The tiefling is open to all for character creation. I'm eating breakfast so not going to look the others up at this time.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Michael Brock wrote:
Carlos beat me to it. Parts of the ARG are legal but other parts are not. The tiefling is open to all for character creation. I'm eating breakfast so not going to look the others up at this time.

poptarts?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

CRobledo wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Carlos beat me to it. Parts of the ARG are legal but other parts are not. The tiefling is open to all for character creation. I'm eating breakfast so not going to look the others up at this time.
poptarts?

Egg white omelette with cheese, onions, mushrooms. Wheat toast on side. Orange juice to top it off.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks CRobledo! I was trying and failing to find it in the guide.
That answers questions 1, 2, and 3 as a yes.

What about questions 4 and 5?

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Michael Brock wrote:
Egg white omelette with cheese, onions, mushrooms. Wheat toast on side. Orange juice to top it off.

That actually sounds exactly what I get at Flying Biscuit.

Anyone visiting Atlanta in the future, make a point to go to a Flying Biscuit when you are here.

Liberty's Edge *****

Question 4 is also answered in the Additional Resources section for Ultimate Magic I believe.

Question 5 has had some debate, and I don't believe has an campaign specific answer yet.

Liberty's Edge

Andrew Christian wrote:
Question 4 is also answered in the Additional Resources section for Ultimate Magic I believe...

If it is there, I can't find it. I believe a poster is saying PFS does not allow wildblooded to be one of the bloodlines in a crossblooded sorcerer.

Andrew Christian wrote:
... Question 5 has had some debate, and I don't believe has an campaign specific answer yet.

Hmm... So do I ask my local VC?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:


Andrew Christian wrote:
... Question 5 has had some debate, and I don't believe has an campaign specific answer yet.
Hmm... So do I ask my local VC?

I need to do some research on both cross blooded and dragon disciple and then will make a ruling. It won't be in the next five minutes but I will look into it today.

Liberty's Edge *****

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Question 4 is also answered in the Additional Resources section for Ultimate Magic I believe...

If it is there, I can't find it. I believe a poster is saying PFS does not allow wildblooded to be one of the bloodlines in a crossblooded sorcerer.

Andrew Christian wrote:
... Question 5 has had some debate, and I don't believe has an campaign specific answer yet.
Hmm... So do I ask my local VC?

For Question 4: Are you asking can you use Crossblooded and Wildblooded for the same character? Or are you asking if those two archetypes (and bloodlines) are legal?

Additional Resources for the book the archetype/bloodline is in, specifically answers if the archetype/bloodline is legal.

As for combining them, you have to go to the rule of archetypes. If two archetypes modify the exact same thing, then you can't use both. Since Crossblooded and Wildblooded both modify the bloodline, you can't take both of them on the same character.

Question 5 is not an easy answer. You may not get one that satisfies you. Because there is no definitive answer on whether a Crossblooded sorcerer (with one bloodline being Draconic) or Wildblooded (Linnorm) can qualify for Dragon Disciple, you may find that you have table variance. Best thing to do is ask your local GM, game day coordinator, Venture-Lieutenant or Venture-Captain how it will be handled locally. Even so, any GM you sit down with would be allowed to rule it however they interpret the rule (barring a future clarification, FAQ or Eratta). At least getting a local consensus would mean you could be pretty sure what would be legal at almost every table you sit at on a local level. If you go to a convention, however, you may find many vastly different interpretations.

Personally, unless it blatantly breaks a rule, or ambiguously does and is obviously overpowered, then I personally wouldn’t be super strict, and I’d advise any GM’s who ask me, the same thing.

I don’t see how a Crossblooded sorcerer with one of their bloodlines being Draconic would break the game by being allowed to be a Dragon Disciple. One of their bloodlines is Draconic, and that in my mind satisfies the requirement.

Wildblooded (Linnorm) on the other hand, is a different question, and the bloodline is now not draconic, but linnorm. Even though it uses the Draconic bloodline as a chassis. I would rule no on this one.

Liberty's Edge

Michael Brock wrote:
... I need to do some research on both cross blooded and dragon disciple and then will make a ruling. It won't be in the next five minutes but I will look into it today.

Much appreciated!

No rush. The next event for us isn't until the 18th, so I've got time to do it right.

Liberty's Edge

Andrew Christian wrote:
For Question 4: Are you asking can you use Crossblooded and Wildblooded for the same character? ...

Exactly!

Andrew Christian wrote:
... As for combining them, you have to go to the rule of archetypes. If two archetypes modify the exact same thing, then you can't use both. Since Crossblooded and Wildblooded both modify the bloodline, you can't take both of them on the same character ...

I'll see what MB comes back with. I hope your wrong, but I will live with it if you are right.

Hmm... I don't want to get anyone else in trouble... But I would swear we have a crossblooded empyreal and elemental at our local.

*

^^^^I agree with Andrew.

Dragon disciple is not class specific so I see no problem with a crossblooded sorc and dragon disciple. It meets all the requirements.

Also, crossblooded with dragon disciple seems to be a highly recommended combination in the only guide for dragon disciple found in the Advice forums. So this lends some credence to the combo being legal.

Liberty's Edge *****

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
For Question 4: Are you asking can you use Crossblooded and Wildblooded for the same character? ...

Exactly!

Andrew Christian wrote:
... As for combining them, you have to go to the rule of archetypes. If two archetypes modify the exact same thing, then you can't use both. Since Crossblooded and Wildblooded both modify the bloodline, you can't take both of them on the same character ...

I'll see what MB comes back with. I hope your wrong, but I will live with it if you are right.

Hmm... I don't want to get anyone else in trouble... But I would swear we have a crossblooded empyreal and elemental at our local.

Not sure Mike is going to rule on combining Crossblooded with Wildblooded.

By rule of archetypes, both modify the bloodline, and as such, are mutually exclusive.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite.
Andrew Christian wrote:


Not sure Mike is going to rule on combining Crossblooded with Wildblooded.

By rule of archetypes, both modify the bloodline, and as such, are mutually exclusive.

Those two can't be combined.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Crossblooded is an archetype for sorcerers. It enables them to have two bloodlines.

The only requirement for Dragon Disciple is this:

Quote:
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline

.

I see no problem as long as one of your bloodlines is draconic.

Liberty's Edge

Carpola!

Ok, I will have to figure out how to modify that build.

I would still like to know if crossblooded will qualify for DD in PFS.

Thx.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

1 person marked this as a favorite.
PRD: Crossblooded (Archetype) wrote:

A crossblooded bloodline combines the powers of two distinct heritages. …

A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. …
Example: A 3rd-level aberrant/abyssal crossblooded sorcerer…

These small bits from the archetype are considered both bloodlines, not one or the other, and not some weird amalgamation of the two. You essentially get to pick which powers, feats, spells, etc. from each bloodline you get at the level a bloodline normally gets one of those things.

You also take a huge penalty at -1 spell known per spell level (including cantrips) and -2 Will Saves.

PRD: Dragon Disciple wrote:
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.

By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.

As Andrew mentioned above, I don’t see how a Crossblooded sorcerer with one of their bloodlines being Draconic would break the game by being allowed to be a Dragon Disciple. One of their bloodlines is Draconic, and that in my mind satisfies the requirement.

Wildblooded (Linnorm) on the other hand, is a different question, and the bloodline is now not draconic, but linnorm. Even though it uses the Draconic bloodline as a chassis. I would rule no on this one.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Will this be added to the Clarification Compilation?

Can I call it the "ClarComp" for short?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What about taking Wildblooded through the Eldritch Heritage feat line? There's been a number of questions on whether that's possible.

Liberty's Edge *****

Jiggy wrote:

Will this be added to the Clarification Compilation?

Can I call it the "ClarComp" for short?

Clomp is better.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Cheapy wrote:
What about taking Wildblooded through the Eldritch Heritage feat line? There's been a number of questions on whether that's possible.

this seems more of a rules forum question than a pfs question...

Liberty's Edge *****

Cheapy wrote:
What about taking Wildblooded through the Eldritch Heritage feat line? There's been a number of questions on whether that's possible.

Technically speaking, I'd say no. Because to get one of the mutated bloodlines, you have to have the wildblooded archetype.

Eldritch Heritage only gives you access to a bloodline, not an archetype.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Jiggy wrote:

Will this be added to the Clarification Compilation?

Can I call it the "ClarComp" for short?

Ahead of you by four minutes. You are slow today!

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Michael Brock wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Will this be added to the Clarification Compilation?

Can I call it the "ClarComp" for short?

Ahead of you by four minutes. You are slow today!

I blame my cold. I shouldn't have dumped CON.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

CRobledo wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What about taking Wildblooded through the Eldritch Heritage feat line? There's been a number of questions on whether that's possible.
this seems more of a rules forum question than a pfs question...

Yep, please take future similar questions to the Rules forum. It isn't that I don't like answering them. I just don't have time to answer hundreds or thousands of rule specific questions in my work day.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Jiggy wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Will this be added to the Clarification Compilation?

Can I call it the "ClarComp" for short?

Ahead of you by four minutes. You are slow today!
I blame my cold. I shouldn't have dumped CON.

Try some Templeton Rye in your coffee. It will perk you right up!

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'll keep that in mind once I can handle something besides ramen and water.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
I'll keep that in mind once I can handle something besides ramen and water.

The whiskey eats the disease in your body.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

...Really?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Jiggy wrote:
...Really?

Yes really. ;-). Go forth and make good things happen young man!

Liberty's Edge

Ok, thanks MB that answers all my questions for now.

And thanks everyone else for your help.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

My older brother was in the Navy during Viet Nam, and stationed in Spain. He and a buddy got sick from the bacteria in the local water. He describes drinking and drinking to put himself out of misery on a New Year's Eve singing John Lennon songs. Then he was claims to have been suddenly and abruptly cured for the price of a modest hangover (which he said was worth it). Whiskey eating the bacteria.

A biochemist told me this can't be true, but I think it is.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Jim Groves wrote:
A biochemist told me this can't be true, but I think it is.

Mind over matter, sir.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

CRobledo wrote:
Mind over matter, sir.

Hey, if I could use INT instead of CON for these fort saves, I totally would. But nooooooo.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Try some Templeton Rye in your coffee. It will perk you right up!

It's a trap!

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kyle Baird wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Try some Templeton Rye in your coffee. It will perk you right up!
It's a trap!

That was Booker's and you only end up in a police headlock if you let it get to you ;-)

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Hey, if I could use INT instead of CON for these fort saves, I totally would. But nooooooo.

I have the same problem with my Will saves. Damn my negative Wisdom modifier! ;-)


Michael Brock wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


Not sure Mike is going to rule on combining Crossblooded with Wildblooded.

By rule of archetypes, both modify the bloodline, and as such, are mutually exclusive.

Those two can't be combined.

Alright, so if there are existing characters with both archetypes, one (or both?) of the archetypes will need to be removed, correct?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Azurespark wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


Not sure Mike is going to rule on combining Crossblooded with Wildblooded.

By rule of archetypes, both modify the bloodline, and as such, are mutually exclusive.

Those two can't be combined.
Alright, so if there are existing characters with both archetypes, one (or both?) of the archetypes will need to be removed, correct?

Yes

Liberty's Edge ***

Another quick question. There was a change to the whip when UE came out. Since that actually affects one of my character builds, what are my options on it, if any?

Relevant additional text in UE, for those interested wrote:
You can’t wield a whip in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls.

I have a Lore Warden Fighter, Strength-based, who was designed about two-handing a whip once he reached 5th level and Improved Whip Mastery...

Basically to give him a moderate damage option against things he couldn't trip and/or disarm.

So, possibilities:

  • Stuck with him pretty much as-is
  • Able to sell off his whip at full price, but stuck with the whip feats & weapon training
  • Able to sell off his whip at full price and change out the several whip-related feats he has (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Weapon Focus: Whip, Whip Mastery, Weapon Specialization: Whip, and Improved Whip Mastery) and change his Weapon Training from flails to whatever weapon gets chosen to replace the whip in his repertoire.

Also, although I am sure this is more of a rules question than a PFS one: Does the 1-1/2 times damage from Power Attack still apply to a whip wielded two-handed? The text specifically only refers to Strength damage, after all.

The Exchange ****

What about cross-blooded and tattooed? There was some massive debate last I saw.

Dark Archive ****

RE: Whip. Why not just make the whip a light weapon? Then there's no need for special rules for weapon finesse or dealing extra STR damage with it. And it speeds up that use-a-whip-as-an-off-hand-weapon concept I've seen tried more than once.


kinevon wrote:

Another quick question. There was a change to the whip when UE came out. Since that actually affects one of my character builds, what are my options on it, if any?

See also: brass knuckles.

Shadow Lodge **

I was all excited for my monk/sorceror(draconic/empyreal)/dragon disciple, and then I crashed. Such beautiful stat synergy.... Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

Liberty's Edge

Michael Brock wrote:
Azurespark wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

...

Those two can't be combined.
Alright, so if there are existing characters with both archetypes, one (or both?) of the archetypes will need to be removed, correct?
Yes

I am not directly involved, but I want to mention this just to be sure you are aware.

The one instance of this that I know of (crossblooded empyreal/draconic dragon disciple) will require a significant rebuild of the character.
If the player tried to just remove the sage, he would not be able to cast spells since charisma is only 5. Therefore would not qualify for the PrC that he already has levels in.

So to make a valid character, he would either have to change classes some or move abilities around.

Will probably have to let the player know in what manner he is allowed to change the character in order to make it legal.

Sovereign Court **

Hi

Do the Racial Traits from ARG count towards your 2 Traits allowed?
Eg, the alternate racial stuff listed as Traits?

Thanks
Paul H

Grand Lodge *

PaulH wrote:

Hi

Do the Racial Traits from ARG count towards your 2 Traits allowed?
Eg, the alternate racial stuff listed as Traits?

Thanks
Paul H

Alternate racial traits do not, as they replace the racial traits that the race has to start with. Race traits do count towards the 2 trait limit.

***

there is a difference between racial traits and race traits.

eg. having darkvision is a racial trait, being 'warrior of old' is a race trait.

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