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Cleave lets you hit 1 more enemy if your first attack hits and they are adjacent to each other. but not the same enemy, one additional attack with this feat
Cleaving Finish lets you hit 1 more enemy within reach if you drop your first target. one additional attack with this feat, but does not say you have to use while cleaving
just with those 2 feats could you get out 3 attacks with 1 standard action?
Example 1
enemy X,Y,and Z are adjacent to each other and you.
you hit X with Cleave
then you hit Y with the extra hit from Cleave and kill him.
with Cleaving Finish you hit Z
Example 2
enemy X,and Y are adjacent to each other and you.
you hit X with Cleave
then you hit Y with the extra hit from Cleave and kill him.
with Cleaving Finish you hit X again
Example 3
enemy X,and Y are adjacent to each other and you.
you hit X with Cleave and kill him.
then you hit Y with the extra hit from Cleave
with Cleaving Finish you hit Y again
does these 2 feats work like this?
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Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
and
Cleaving Finish (Combat)
When you strike down an opponent, you can continue your swing into another target.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.
You have to use a special standard action for cleave, but if you drop your opponent, you can make a cleaving finish attack, since you made a melee attack. I am not sure, however, that you can interrupt the two attacks from cleave with a cleaving finish in between.
While Cleaving Finish doesn't specify timing, it makes sense to me that it occurs immediately following the trigger. So, if the first attack of cleave hits and drops the target, you resolve Cleaving Finish first, then continue on with Cleave.
I don't think there has been any official clarification of this interaction.
The rules seem unclear to me. I can see a case being made for allowing all three examples you gave in the OP.
But...example 3 just feels wonky to me. Both the Cleave and the Cleaving Finish come from the same source. The same "swing" if you will. In my mind that means you are extending your swing to slash through the primary target and into a secondary target. To cleave the same target twice you'd have to reverse your swing, literally make a different swing.
...yeah. I can see the arguments for it, but as a DM I'd rule you can't spend the extra attacks from Cleave and Finishing Cleave on the same target.
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The reason why i posted this is because if you get Great Cleave, and Improved Cleaving Finish you can ether
1)possibly hit everyone around you with 2 attacks. if you hit and drop the first one, and hit and kill the others in 1 or 2 attacks.
2)hit and drop everyone in 1 hit and have all the attacks from Improved Cleaving Finish to beat the BBEG right next to you.
I do know that you can't hit the same person that you have already hit with Cleave and Great Cleave.
But Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish, you can hit people that you have already hit before.
I just dont know if you can store the attacks that Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish gives you.
Great Cleave puts a hard cap of one attack per foe during the action in which you use it.
Great Cleave
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
So, if you use Great Cleave, you can't make more than one attack per foe no matter what feat or ability grants you extra attacks.
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So i see that You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action with Great Cleave. So now do you have to do Great Cleave First and if you drop multiple people during Great Cleave do you get your extra attacks with Improved Cleaving Finish?
Example
Since Great Cleave is a standard action you do all your attacks with it. Then After that action is over, lets say you drop 3 opponents, then Improved Cleaving Finish gives you 3 more attacks.
would that work?
It need not make sense. If you are in my game and you took the feats I'm going to let you take those extra attacks when you earn them. Given that the feats are niche as it is (adjacent opponents for Cleave and Great Cleave, standard action only, AC penalty, oh and you actually have to hit in the first place and keep on hitting) and that the Cleaving Finish feats are follow ups to the normal version, you will get those attacks, sense or nonsense.
Here's how I would run in. You attack the first creature with cleave. You drop him, great. Now you have two attacks floating around waiting for you to pick them up, the cleaving finish and the continuation of great cleave. You pick which way you go with it. If you go Great Cleave and continue to the next creature, the attack from Cleaving Finish isn't lost. Say you drop that creature also, now you have two other competing free attacks and one remaining. The one remaining happened earlier so you only have two to chose from now. Say you choose to continue the cleave. Grand, take your extra attack. Now, you have two "victory dance" attacks remaining. Go ahead and wail on that last creature. For your imagination, you so thoroughly catch the last dude off guard after cutting his buddies in half along the waist that you can wail on him twice. Alternately you had enough force behind that attack that although you made three attack rolls on the last guy it was all the same, "attack."
Say you take the Cleaving Finish feats first. Still fine. You got three stooges in a row and one doofus behind you. You cleave attack the first dude and drop him. You have your ICF and GC attacks waiting, you take ICF and hit the guy behind you, then return to cleaving the next stooge. You drop him too! Well done. You ICF the doofus and return to your cleave. If you would like a mental picture that would help you with this, you are a mad, angry dwarf furiously swinging his axe around like a tornado of death and the doofus behind you is taking the brunt of your gale-force winds.
Honestly, a GM who denies you extra attacks from feats this niche is denying you fun. If they want to deny you attacks in the first place, they shouldn't put creatures in slaughter formation. (In which case you use bull rush or reposition to PUT them in slaughter formation.) They are some of the hardest to use effectively, especially as the game progresses, and denying you such is penalizing you for attempting to use a harder strategy than just the boring old full attack.
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Incidentally, here's a fighter ENTIRELY focused on cleaving to level 12... (Almost. Just missing feats for 9th and 10th level pertaining to cleave.)
Dwarf Fighter
1. Power Attack, Cleave (Core)
2. Goblin Cleaver (ARG)
3. Orc Hewer (ARG)
4. Great Cleave (Core)
5. Cleaving Finish (UC)
6. Improved Cleaving Finish (UC)
7. Surprise Follow Through (ARG)
8. Improved Surprise Follow Through (ARG)
9. Luuuunnge! [Disruptive? (Core)]
10. Disruptive [Spellbreaker? (Core)]
11. Cleave Through (ARG)
12. Giant Killer (ARG)
*13. Spellbreaker
*14. Shatterspell
This allows you to cleave in all directions against progressively larger opponents, deny DEX to AC against hits after the first, and eventually 5 foot step while cleaving for better positioning.
On a scale from 1 to badass, this guy ranks about a 12.
Edit: Thanks Oterisk!
You'll want lunge to improve your reach.
Incidentally, here's a fighter ENTIRELY focused on cleaving to level 12... (Almost. Just missing feats for 9th and 10th level pertaining to cleave.)
** spoiler omitted **
now put him on a pony with mounted skirmisher
Incidentally, here's a fighter ENTIRELY focused on cleaving to level 12... (Almost. Just missing feats for 9th and 10th level pertaining to cleave.)
** spoiler omitted **
Isn't surprise follow through an orc racial feat?
Lunge wouldn't let you hit adjacent to you it is true. You will be able to hit one more creature at the end of each range and with the dwarf specific feats futher apart entirely. Skip it if you want to stay close and personal.
While the followthrou feats are listed in the half orc section, being of that race is not listed as a prerequesite.
I always thought that lunge would allow one to hit adjacent people.
In that case it's even better than I thunk!
Man, I wanna make a Cleaving fighter! Bring on the hordes of zombies, I can take 'em!
Cleaving Finish is better than Cleave? But Cleaving Finish works only when you kill someone, whereas Cleave works when you hit someone. Is the positioning really that hard? It seems to me that against hordes of mooks (which both feats are obviously intended for), it shouldn't be that hard to face two opponents standing next to each other.
Mind you, I have no experience with either feat.
When you want to kill a horde of mooks dont play a fighter. Cleave is just a bad way for fighters to deal with something other classes can deal with a lot better and its a waste for all kind of scenarios a fighter is made for.
Incidentally, here's a fighter ENTIRELY focused on cleaving to level 12... (Almost. Just missing feats for 9th and 10th level pertaining to cleave.)
** spoiler omitted **
You have half orc only feats mixed in with your dwarf feats. No follow through for dwarves.
When you want to kill a horde of mooks dont play a fighter. Cleave is just a bad way for fighters to deal with something other classes can deal with a lot better and its a waste for all kind of scenarios a fighter is made for.
Cleave isn't that bad for fighters, it lets the fighter get more attacks when they can't full attack. Either from moving, or being too low in level. Its also not a big deal to trade it out when you don't need it anymore.
As for being bad for clearing out mooks, my party took on the level 17 module "legacy of the witch war"
I was thinking power attack and cleave are over-rated even for those that it is considered a "must have"
For example a switch-hitter ranger.
why must that first level great-sword, Falchion, ect wielding PC take power-attack?
I have been freeing up my early feats by not taking those and instead waiting til 6th level and taking vital strike (which applies to both melee and ranged attacks).
Wait I guess I am wrong for not optimizing and the math will prove me wrong in the end! ;)
Yea, vital strike sucks in most cases. If you like it anyway, go ahead, but I think the only advice we can give here is what is optimal. If you're looking for something else, take what you want, what fits to that character, but we cannot really help there.
And noone who knows what he's talking about claims cleave to be a must-have feat. Cleave sucks.
You have half orc only feats mixed in with your dwarf feats. No follow through for dwarves.Incidentally, here's a fighter ENTIRELY focused on cleaving to level 12... (Almost. Just missing feats for 9th and 10th level pertaining to cleave.)
** spoiler omitted **
While it is listed under the half-orc section, if you will read the feat itself you will see it does NOT require you to be of the Orc or Half-Orc race. I have the book open in front of me and the d20pfsrd entry open as well. The d20pfsrd entry lists the feat as (Combat, Half-Orc), but the prereq line does not require it.
The feat is listed in that section on account of the Rogue archetype under that heading, which is able to take those two feats in place of Rogue talents. They are actually open for anyone to take, including other rogues! Neat, isn't it?
There's nothing that states WHEN you have to take your bonus attacks. You can take them any time during the same turn.
Cleaving Finish is pretty useful, and possible for a human fighter to get at level 1. We had a half orc barbarian ranger with it, and she ended up doing quite a bit of killing with her falchion. The more killing she did, the more damage she did. The more damage she did, the less the casters had to deal with and the more we could conserve spells. I don't think I can think of another feat where she could get 3-4 more attacks per combat other than if she used a reach weapon and combat reflexes.
But only against dumb lowlevel enemies.
I suddenly realized what really makes Cleaving Finish better: it works on full attacks, Cleave doesn't. That makes a rather big difference that I hadn't noticed yet.
Cleaving Finish works ANY time you drop a foe in melee. You could do it off an attack of opportunity just as readily as a full attack. You don't even have to declare it in advance with an action like you do Cleave. It simply triggers.
Er...there is.
A friend of mine used it to GREAT effect with this character.
Get combat reflexes, a friend (or failiar) casting some low critters, aoo them, profit!
So as shown above theres an awful lot of cleave feats. I take it the best options are
Cleave for two handers since they can get 2 strikes of a standard action
AND cleaving finish for 2WF?
Cleaving finish could be particularly good for a 2 Weapon Warrior since they can eventually 2wf as an AOO and standard action.
1rd one: 2WF close and cleaves two dudes.
2nd rd: Full attack 1st dude. He dies, maybe with some iteratives left. Use rest of iteratives and cleaving finish on 2nd dude.
Er...there is.
A friend of mine used it to GREAT effect with this character.
A nice example of Eldritch Heritage in use.
Why not Orc bloodline?I know I already asked, but what char gen do you use again?
I'd be grateful if you cared to look over my Orc Bloodline Two Weapon Warrior
(You may have seen the build in a thread or two. Uses optimistic gambler and quicken SLA for touch of rage.)
I would like to work in cleave or cleaving finish if there is any benefit.
Provided someone can't show otherwise, cleaving finish (so long as you don't move before it) also doesn't have the requirement for adjacent opponents, and therefore the extra attack granted from it can be taken after a 5ft step.
Since the 5ft step can be taken
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.I had 2 enemies standing in cleave position, on my h-orc skulking slayer with surprise follow thru and cleaving finish. One of the two was flanked by an ally, and a third enemy was 5ft away. Per the rules, I took the swing on the flanked enemy, getting sneak damage, dropped him, and got a "free swing at my highest" per cleaving finish. I then cleaved into the 2nd enemy, getting sneak and dropping him with surprise follow thru. (not having imp cleaving finish, which would have left me with 2 "floating" attacks) I then took my 5ft step as I had not moved at all, next to the 3rd enemy, and used my cleaving finish attack. Had I been a couple levels higher, I would have had 2 attacks from Imp Cleaving finish to hit him twice.
This is invalid.
...you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach
The target of the cleaving finish must be within reach at the time it triggers. If you need to take a 5' step for them to be within reach, then they aren't in reach when the condition triggers, and thus are not valid targets for the cleaving finish.
A nice example of Eldritch Heritage in use.
Thank you.
Why not Orc bloodline?
Because he was converted from a v3.5 character my friend made, where he was a true half-dragon. I didn't want to use a template in Pathfinder and chose this alternative. Having orc blood wouldn't have made any sense in the context of the character (which already has some history behind it).
I know I already asked, but what char gen do you use again?
I generate all my characters with my hands, head, and heart (and also Microsoft Word 2010).
I'd be grateful if you cared to look over my Orc Bloodline Two Weapon Warrior.
If it's mostly legible and well organized, I'd be happy to look at it.
I would like to work in cleave or cleaving finish if there is any benefit.
That remains to be seen.
"Remains to be seen."
My point exactly.
I have done a couple of one shot dungeons with the Two Weapon Warrior build in its current form.
With Touch of Rage running generally I have him close with Doublestrike/Rend/Dazing Assault.
If it lives and makes the save I full attack on Rd2. It dies or takes damage and has to save again.
Usually have a couple of Iteratives left from a full attack and will 5ft step and use remainder on whomever I can reach. Cleaving Finish would add 1 more strike. Maybe enough to drop a foe. Havent done the math.
Name: Xavier Longsaddle
Build: Fighter 20 (Two Weapon Warrior)
Race: Human Alignment: Neutral Good
Ability Scores:
STR 15 (bump at 4, 12, 16)
DEX16 (bump to 17 at lvl 8)
CON14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 13 (Bump at 20)
Favored Class: Fighter (+1 skills)
Skills: Class (2), Human (1),+ Favored (1)+(1) Int= 5 per level
2 Traits- Defender of The Society- +1AC in Med Armor
, Optimistic Gambler- Morale effects persist 1d4 rounds.
Feats/Special
Ftr1
TWF, Weapon Fcs: Scimitar, Skill Fcs: Perception
Ftr2
Bravery, Power Attack
Ftr3
Defensive Flurry +1, Iron Will
Ftr4
Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
Ftr5
Twin Blades +1, Extra Traits- Latent Psion and Dangerously Curious
Ftr6
Lunge
Ftr7
Defensive Flurry +2, Eldritch Heritage: Touch of Rage
Ftr8
Gtr Wpn Fcs: Scimitar, Retrain Lunge for ITWF, Skill Focus: UMD
Ftr9
Twin Blades +2, Double Strike, Double slice
Ftr10
Improved Critical
Ftr11
Improved Balance (-1/-1), Defensive Flurry +3, Quicken SLA- Touch of Rage
Ftr12
Dazing Assault, Retrain Improved Crit for TWR
Ftr13
Twin Blades +3, Equal Opportunity, Improved Eldritch Heritage-Strength of the Beast +2
Ftr14
Pindown
Ftr15
Perfect Balance (0/0), Defensive Flurry +4, Combat Ref, Strength of The Beast +4
Ftr16
Gtr Wpn Spec, Retrain Dazing Assault for Stunning Assault, skill focus: intimidate
Ftr17
Twin Blades +4, Deft Double strike Eldritch Heritage-Power of Giants, Strength of the Beast +6
Ftr18
GTWF
Ftr19
Deadly Defense, Defensive Flurry +5, Quicken SLA-Power of Giants
Ftr20
Weapon Master, swap gtwf for imp crit, versatile critical
AC= 10 +6(Celestial Chain) +5(Armor Enhancement)+5(Amulet)+5(Ring)+6 (Dex+ Belt, )+1(Trait)+1(Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)= 39 on a move or 44 with full attack (+ 5 Defensive Flurry), 47 if Fighting Defensively.
Or Taking -5 to offhand attacks with Defending Weapon is 50AC.
Add Gladiator archetypes if using piecemeal armor (+1 A.C. for piecemeal armor)
Base Will save: 5+2(Iron Will)+2(mind effect)+2(enchant morale)+3(Headband of Prowess)+5 (Cloak of Resist)+1(Ioun Stone)=20
If using Guardian enchant: 25
Touch of Rage: 35
Taking weapon Training and full power attack into account Final Full Attack is
BAB20 +2(Gtr Wpn Fcs)+ 4(Twin Blades)+2(Dueling Gloves)+ 7(STR) +3(Belt of Physical Perfection) +5(wpn enhancement)-1(TWF w Scimitars) -6(PA) + 1 (Boots of Speed)=37/37/37/32/32/27/27/22
Damage Primary= +5, Duelist- FG, Defending, Runeforged (Parasitic), Scimitar
D6+ 5(wpn enhance)+10(STR,Belt) +4(Gtr Wpn Spl) +4(Twin Blades) +12(PA)+2(Dueling Gloves)= ave 40 on full attack (Damage = 36 on standard action)
Damage Secondary= +5, Menacing, Courageous, Guardian, Scimitar
D6+ 5(wpn enhance) +10(STR,Belt) +4(Gtr Wpn Spl) +4(Twin Blades)+6(PA)+2(Dueling Gloves)= ave 34 (Damage = 30 on standard action)
Full Attack/Touch of Rage/Courageous
(+10 to hit and damage,+4 more for Courageous)