Craft Wand Save DC

[kantas]

Howdy Folks

I recently was asked a question about a save DC for a wand of hold person.

I was under the impression that when you make a wand the wand spell version automatically uses the lowest casting stat required to be able to cast the spell...

however i cannot find the rule that specifies that... also cannot find anything about the cost for something like that... I would think that the cost of a Wand of Hold Person DC 20 would be more expensive than a wand of hold person DC 15

does anyone know of any rules governing this??

[2radly]

It is. The rules for creating magic items are here, look under wand:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html

But to sum it up: 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster

Pre-made/found wands are assumed to require the minimum caster level required to cast the spell. However, if you use a higher level to gain more effectiveness, then the price obviously becomes higher as it's factored into the equation. And wand save DC's are based on the spells casting level, which is whatever level used to make the wand.

A 5th lvl mage could make a wand of magic missiles as a 1st lvl caster and the cost would be 375gpx1x1 = 375gp. The wand would shoot 1 magic missile. However, if he created it as a 5th lvl mage, it would be 375x1x5 = 1875gp. And the wand would fire 3 missiles.

[kantas]

Problem with that is I can still be a level 20 wizard with an Intelligence of 12... giving my Hold person a save DC of 13.

If i make it caster level 20... then hold person lasts for 20 rounds...

but it's DC is still 13, for a total price of 15000 gp to craft.

However if i'm a level 20 wizard, and i have a 36 intelligence...

and i make the same wand...

it's cost is also 15000 gp... but what does it use as the save DC? the creator's intelligence, which in this case gives a save DC of 25...

if you had the choice of wand... which would you take?

the site you posted, doesn't actually answer the question about save DC for a wand when it's crafted.

[2radly]

Actually.. let me change that slightly, as to my chagrin, I used Magic Missile which doesn't have a saving throw. LOL. Lets use Color Spray instead. Same level, same modifiers.

However, Say the mage has a 18 INT. (+4)
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

So.. A lvl 1 wand would be DC 10+1 (minimum) +1 (you need a minimum IQ of 1). So DC=12
However
But as the 5th lvl wand: 10+5 (level 5 effects) +1 (as 1 int is required to cast a first lvl spell). So DC=16

[Isil-zha]

2radly, this is not how you calculate DCs, it is spell level, not caster level.

also the minimum intelligence to cast a first level spell is 11, which doesn't grant a bonus to the DC

[kantas]

I continued looking, and finally found the rules for this occasion...

Saves against magic item powers

[Caderyn]

Relevant rules page http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems.html

"Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.

Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly)."

Your DC calculations are wrong, caster level has no effect on spell DC in pathfinder.

spell DC is 10 + spell level (not caster level) + int modifier

This means a color spray wand would always have the same DC as the spell level doesnt change and neither does the int required to cast the spell.

The following arcane discovery allows you to bypass the normal rules for wands though

"Staff-Like Wand

Your research has unlocked a new power in conjunction with using a wand.

Prerequisite: You must be at least an 11th-level Wizard and must have the Craft Staff feat to select this discovery.

Benefit: Similar to using a magic staff, you use your own Intelligence score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against spells you cast from a wand, and you can use your caster level when activating the power of a wand if it’s higher than the caster level of the wand."

[2radly]

I'd go back and re-read that if I were you.
I actually copied that from the Pathfinder section.. It says "the level of spell or effect". Casting a spell at a higher level increases the 'effect', therefore increasing the DC as it's no longer a lvl 1, but a lvl 5 effect.

The only difference between casting it as a spell and putting that same spell in a wand is as a spell, you get your full INT bonus to the Save DC, whereas in a wand, you only get the minimum required to cast the spell.

[Isil-zha]

The level of the spell is still level 1 even if the caster level is higher.

[2radly]

*Staff-like Wand is a wonderful feat.. but using that, you could make a lvl 1 wand act as a much higher level wand. Making things much more affordable for the caster rather than making the wand at a higher level.

[2radly]

You are continually ignoring the "or effect" part of that statement. The EFFECT is not level 1 anymore, it is level 5. (in the example)

[Isil-zha]

Yes, the effect is still one of a first level spell. That the effect of that spell is influenced by caster level does not affect the DC, only the actual spell level does.

2radly wrote:

I'd go back and re-read that if I were you.

[2radly]

So.. your claiming a

Level 1 wand of fireball. 5d6 fireball: DC 10+3+1 (13 int = +1) = DC14.
Level 10 wof: 5d6 fireball: DC 10+3+1 (13 int = +1) = DC14.
You couldn't even hit a lvl 10 rogue with this wand unless they rolled a 1. And does no extra damage.

Whereas.. I read it as EFFECT having changed from 5d6 to 10d6, therefore, it's being cast as a 10th lvl effect. Thus, it scales (which would explain more as to why it's so much more costly)
Level 10 wof. 10d6 fireball: DC 10+ 10 spell effect + 1 (min int required) = DC21.

[Isil-zha]

The minimum caster level for a fireball wand is 5 not 1.
The spell level of a fireball is 3.
Minimum int to cast fireball is 13
The save DC therefore is 14. (assuming you don't have any features that influence this further)

If you create the wand at caster level 10 the save DC does not change, the damage however does change to 10d6

2radly wrote:

I'd go back and re-read that if I were you.

[2radly]

BTW = the Level 1 (actually lvl 5) wand of fireball would cost 375*3*5 = 5625gp.. but the level 10 would cost 11250gp.

[2radly]

We'll agree to disagree I guess. I feel your completely ignoring the "or effect" part of that description. Granted, it doesn't say 'effective level', but I feel that's what was intended.. otherwise why put the "or effect" in there at all, as all spells have levels?

Furthermore: Since it doesn't say 'effective level of the caster' on wand creation, it just says: 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster
Therefore, as you go up in levels, it becomes increasingly more expensive for you to create low level wands. However, we all interpret this correctly as 'effective level of the caster', As you couldn't obtain the Craft Wand feat until lvl 5. All lvl 1 wands would then cost 375x1x5 = 1875gp minimum. We all know this not to be the cost of a level 1 wand though, and use effective level, not actual level.

[Isil-zha]

Twice the price for twice the damage, sounds reasonable to me (wouldn't pay it though)

And if I'd try to "get a rogue" I'd use a spell that doesn't allow a reflex save to begin with.

2radly wrote:

I'd go back and re-read that if I were you.

[kantas]

2radly...

the save DC is based on the level of the spell...

a 3rd level spell regardless of caster level will have the same DC, assuming all stats are the same.

we will use fireball as the example for demonstration.

assuming an Int score of 18 for both characters, giving a +4 modifier.

If i'm a Wizard Level 5, i can throw a fireball for 5D6 Damage (This is the 'effect' you're talking about)

the Save DC is that of a 3rd level spell. Thus the forumula for calculating the spell DC is as follows 10 + spell level + casting attribute modifier.

so we have 10 + 3 (fireball is Level 3) + 4 (int modifier) = 17.

If i'm the same wizard casting at level 10, i can throw a fireball for 10D6 damage (greater effect) However, it is still a 3rd level spell...

so the Save DC is 10 + 3 (spell level) + 4 (Int modifier) = 17.

same Save DC but greater effect.

Also for wand creation, you can elect to cast the spell at a lower caster level, hence how you can have a wand of cure light wounds only heal D8+1.

This same example will work if casting fireball from a wand. except according to the rules, the wand uses minimum casting stat, thus the save DC will be 14 as posted previously. (10 + 3 + 1 [13 int modifier])

[kantas]

Also, thanks to Caderyn for pointing out the staff-like wand ability...

i didn't know it existed, however our casters are either oracles, or sorcerers in our party... but i'll keep it in mind for future characters... cause that'd be useful

[Elfguy]

So, to summarize, Wand save DC has nothing to do with the casting stat of the wand creator.

Level 1 spell (Charm Person, Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Etc): DC 11 (10+1+0)
Level 2 spell (Hold Person, Haunting Mists, etc): DC 13 (10+2+1)
Level 3 spell (Fireball, Deep Slumber, Vision of Hell, Etc): DC 14 (10+3+1)
Level 4 spell (Charm Monster, Sleepwalk, etc): DC 16 (10+4+2)

Since you can't make wands for higher level spells, that's pretty much it, unless you have the wizard discovery mentioned, Stafflike Wand.

[dragonhunterq]

If you really want to increase the DC you can also 'heighten spell' it to a higher level (up to 4th of course)- hideously expensive i imagine (i'm too lazy to do the maths :))

[Lifat]

2radly wrote:

You are continually ignoring the "or effect" part of that statement. The EFFECT is not level 1 anymore, it is level 5. (in the example)

The effect part is simply there to say that it doesn't have to be a spell to be handled that way. It could be a spell-like ability or other such abilities. "effect" does not refer back to the spell... That is why "or" is in the sentence.

The others have it right here.

How you are supposed to calculate value for a wand with a higher than normal DC is beyond me... Not sure it is even possible outside of heighten spell, in which case getting higher dc would be very expensive.

[seebs]

2radly, you're being confused because a spell (or effect) has two levels: Spell Level and Caster Level.

Spell Level is the one which determines DC, and that is why the save DC doesn't change when you raise the Caster Level. The bonus to DC from "spell or effect level" maxes out at +9 for a 9th level spell-or-effect, because 9th level is as high as they go. Caster Level doesn't change DCs.

I mean, just look at how spellcasting in general works. The save DC against a wizard's fireball is 10+3+int regardless of whether it does 5d6 or 10d6.

[wraithstrike]

2radly posted over a year ago. :)

[Lifat]

wraithstrike wrote:

2radly posted over a year ago. :)

Doh!!! I missed that it was a necro.

[seebs]

This is what I get for not reading dates.

[Elfguy]

seebs wrote:

This is what I get for not reading dates.

Oops...sorry, my bad...well at least if someone is searching for wand DCs, it's got a summary now...

(About the confusion on level, see the following comic): http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html

[benwin007]

Umm in the core book it says for a level 1 spell for a wand is base 750. 375 is for 0 level spells. Or did something change that I don't know about?

[Quintin Verassi]

Necro in the house! The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp. Wands are assumed to be made at minimum caster level unless stated otherwise.

[Matthew Downie]

benwin007 wrote:

Umm in the core book it says for a level 1 spell for a wand is base 750. 375 is for 0 level spells. Or did something change that I don't know about?

375 is what you pay for materials when you're crafting a level 1 wand (which is what this thread was about) - half the price of buying one.