I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats give and them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
You know, while I dont agree with all of this, i dont think any of it would be a game killer.
I dont know how you could justify a 75% cost, all the feats, and infrustructure and not significantly change the cost of items. [not from a game ballance POV, but from an economics POV]
Subtracting XP may end up givving you the old XP river thing.
BUT not as objectionable as i thought.
SO does this mean that your world is low magic? The way you present it, the party would find it easier to just steal it than make it.
Give me more
Another example of GM fiat in PFS. Did you know that in PFS you can't give another member of the party any of your gold towards a magic item. You can give the item you bought to another PC but you can't give them money. There is nothing physically stopping you except for the GM and the rules of PFS.
You can't do that either. You could loan another PC an item for the duration of the scenario or let them use a consumable, but I don't think you could just give it to them.
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Another example of GM fiat in PFS. Did you know that in PFS you can't give another member of the party any of your gold towards a magic item. You can give the item you bought to another PC but you can't give them money. There is nothing physically stopping you except for the GM and the rules of PFS.You can't do that either. You could loan another PC an item for the duration of the scenario or let them use a consumable, but I don't think you could just give it to them.
I meant a consumable.
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You know, while I dont agree with all of this, i dont think any of it would be a...I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats give and them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
I fixed the XP part. You would still be considered the level you are supposed to be when granting XP for killing monsters. If you are 5th and they are 6th then you are treated as 6th.
I dont know how you could "fix" the XP part.
One character is not as skilled
The other spent his "XP" on something, and is not as skilled.
How can you seperate the two?
All you have to do is look at the WBL, the fact that a caster crafts everything at 50% of the cost, and the fact that the crafter can charge his companions 75% of the price, collect the funds and create even more items for himself while his companions still get a bargain.
Okay, so the party can shift their total WBL to be distributed differently in party. This can happen regardless of crafting -- why is it the job of the magic item creation rules to prevent it? Why is it a bad thing to have parties determine their own dynamics of how they deal with wealth? If it leads to an issue where some players aren't having as much fun, sure, the DM needs to step in and explain that to his or her players, but I think it's out of the scope of the rules.
Crafter = 2 items for the price of one, can a profit, use the proceeds towards yet another while item so that's actually three or more items the crafter can get to a non crafter who get's one, maybe two if he saves enough money from the crafter giving him a bargain.
You have just blown WBL out the water. Now the DM has to step in and say no you can't do that.
Ignoring the case of crafters selling to other party members... Yes, crafted items have half the cost. The net result of this is an all around +1 to all stats covered by a particular crafting feat if the crafter chooses to take a well rounded approach, or potentially more like a +3 (at the cost of a -1 to other stats) if they specialize. Is that really a problem? That's pretty congruent with other feats. See here for the math for both sides of this.
Another example of GM fiat in PFS. Did you know that in PFS you can't give another member of the party any of your gold towards a magic item. You can give the item you bought to another PC but you can't give them money. There is nothing physically stopping you except for the GM and the rules of PFS.
That's interesting, though I'm not sure it's relevant for home games that don't choose to follow PFS rules. Is there something I'm missing that makes PFS rules against passing gold between players relevant to item crafting? At best, it's a precedent for regulating party dynamics, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate for most home games.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Because magic item creation is not something that fits into neat pat rules. The 'rules' that are there are merely a starting point (and they flat out say it in them). The monster creation rules are equally filled with potholes. In general, rules systems about how you extend the rules system are not easy.
If there were rigid rules about creating magic items, they would be limited to creating boring, generic items like the existing wand/ scroll/ staff rules. If you want that, just use those rules and crank out boring items all day long. The item creation rules are a starting place for pricing more interesting items.
The rules are very clear that the charts are estimates and pricing is based on existing items and judgement.
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
– AND later –
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
Also, too many people are assuming that all DMs actually know what they are doing. You have a lot of beginners who follow the rules to the letter because they don't fully know how to enforce GM fiat.
Considering they practically club you over the head explaining the pricing table is an estimate and judgment is required, if someone ignores that bit... they aren't exactly following the rules to the letter now are they?
Making mistakes is part of the process of learning. If a new GM ignores the bit about using judgment, he'll fairly quickly learn to adjust his practice (or the group will change it's play style based on custom items as a fair number have).
This constant argument about whether there is a problem with the rules always sort of cracks me up.
I don't know of any other industry where complaints of the magnitude associated with the Pathfinder magic item system would not immediately be acknowledged as a problem.
"Hey, Joe, our website has four concurrent threads two of them over 200 response long about how our chocolate latte tastes like crap."
"Well, half of those are people who like the way it tastes. So no problem!"Or "We keep getting complaints about brake failures on our latest model."
"Yeah, but half of the respondents say their brakes work fine. No problem."The fact that some people are fine with the rules as they are does not mean they are fine.
There is nothing so bad that someone, somewhere, does not think it is awesome.
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, does not think it sucks.
The trick to product management is knowing when an issue crosses the line from statistical anomaly to problem.Perhaps Paizo is right, and the magic item system complaints are only a vocal minority and they can ignore them with impunity while focusing on selling more new content, which appears to be their official position on the subject.
Perhaps it's a big enough issue that a competitor can exploit that, and other problems, to create a new product that out-competes Paizo.
I guess for now Paizo is winning that gamble.
The major flaw with your argument is that a chocolate latte is called a mocha.
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Well, I am going to refrain from posting my own home-brewn stuff again, three times in the other thread is kind of enough. I don't want to get too obnoxious about it. ;) Although, since it is basically the total opposite of what shallowsoul just posted, it'd be kinda ironic. Oh, well.
No, I am pretty much convinced that we won't see an overhaul of the system until Pathfinder 2.0, because priorities are elsewhere and there is enough disagreement in the playerbase to not feel compelled to go in one certain direction.
However, the developers should at least already have a talk what they want magic item crafting to be about in their next edition. The aspects to argue about seem to be to me:
1.) Player power or GM power. As in, how much customization options do we give the players over the wish of GMs to drop a cool named weapon/item on the PCs, which might not be ideal for its slot, but might be cool enough to use over the optimal option (i.e. self-selected abilities ).
2.) Time requirements. How long should crafting take? Would a campaign benefit from players being able to craft things more quickly? Why do crafters have to spend eight hours per day in a laboratory, what the heck are they doing in there? The item to be enchanted does not have to be crafted anymore, it's all about rubbing in magical oils/powders into whatever item is on that laboratory table.
3.) Crafting feats bloat. Are Craft Wondrous Item / Craft Arms and Armor too good? Or do the other feats just really suck? Create more crafting feats or consolidate the bad ones to make them more desirable?
4.) Money-making machine or customization tool? Magic item crafting feats give the player taking them a distinct advantage in the WBL category of the game. We have a pretty awkward FAQ entry by SKR that only crafters are supposed to gain that advantage, which makes little sense from a realistic and in-lore position.
IMO, the developers should take a long, hard look at this aspect of the magic item crafting rules and decide if it doesn't make magic item crafting the "egg-laying wool-milk-sow" of the game. I personally come down on this aspect being the most problematic of the magic item creation rules and its need to be fixed being the position from which all other possible rules changes need to evolve from.
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Because magic item creation is not something that fits into neat pat rules. The 'rules' that are there are merely a starting point (and they flat out say it in them). The monster creation rules are equally filled with potholes. In general, rules systems about how you extend the rules system are not easy.
If there were rigid rules about creating magic items, they would be limited to creating boring, generic items like the existing wand/ scroll/ staff rules. If you want that, just use those rules and crank out boring items all day long. The item creation rules are a starting place for pricing more interesting items.
The rules are very clear that the charts are estimates and pricing is based on existing items and judgement.
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
– AND later –
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
Also, too many people are assuming that all DMs actually know what they are doing. You have a lot of beginners who follow the rules to the letter because they don't fully know how to enforce GM fiat.Considering they practically club you over the head explaining the pricing table is an estimate and judgment is required, if someone ignores that bit... they aren't exactly following the rules to the letter now are they?
Making mistakes is part of the process of learning. If a new GM ignores the bit about using judgment, he'll fairly quickly learn to adjust his practice (or the group will change it's play style based on custom...
It's not even about that part. It's about the part that is hard coded that needs work. 50% cost to craft is way to easy and you should be allowed to craft on the road. That's just two little things that could easily be changed and do some good.
Here's my suggested temporary fix until 2.0 comes around. In some book for GMs, Paizo writes a paragraph or two on crafting and WBL and another few paragraphs on tips and tricks for pricing homebrew magic items (probably pulled from the Superstar forums).
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Another part I want to hit on is time.
Now if your DM is hitting you with time sensitive quests then I can see it working but I am going to give you a more common and real life scenario.
Players: Okay well the Wizard wants to craft a bunch of items so we are going to stay here until he and the fighter are finished and then we will go.
DM: *looks over the adventure that took him hours to plan out*. Alright lads tell you what? BAM! Time goes by, you have all your stuff so just pay your gold and let's start the adventure.
I can't tell you how many times that has happened in various groups that I have been in. The time part usually always gets handwaved.
Another part I want to hit on is time.
Now if your DM is hitting you with time sensitive quests then I can see it working but I am going to give you a more common and real life scenario.
Players: Okay well the Wizard wants to craft a bunch of items so we are going to stay here until he and the fighter are finished and then we will go.
DM: *looks over the adventure that took him hours to plan out*. Alright lads tell you what? BAM! Time goes by, you have all your stuff so just pay your gold and let's start the adventure.
I can't tell you how many times that has happened in various groups that I have been in. The time part usually always gets handwaved.
Seems reasonable. Why would friends not wait for you?
Seems reasonable. Why would friends not wait for you?Another part I want to hit on is time.
Now if your DM is hitting you with time sensitive quests then I can see it working but I am going to give you a more common and real life scenario.
Players: Okay well the Wizard wants to craft a bunch of items so we are going to stay here until he and the fighter are finished and then we will go.
DM: *looks over the adventure that took him hours to plan out*. Alright lads tell you what? BAM! Time goes by, you have all your stuff so just pay your gold and let's start the adventure.
I can't tell you how many times that has happened in various groups that I have been in. The time part usually always gets handwaved.
Friends might wait, but why should the adventure?
Seems reasonable. Why would friends not wait for you?Another part I want to hit on is time.
Now if your DM is hitting you with time sensitive quests then I can see it working but I am going to give you a more common and real life scenario.
Players: Okay well the Wizard wants to craft a bunch of items so we are going to stay here until he and the fighter are finished and then we will go.
DM: *looks over the adventure that took him hours to plan out*. Alright lads tell you what? BAM! Time goes by, you have all your stuff so just pay your gold and let's start the adventure.
I can't tell you how many times that has happened in various groups that I have been in. The time part usually always gets handwaved.
agreed.
why not rest and have some beer.unless the rest of the party needs something to do?
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I run a Kingmaker game, with 6 players a bunch of whom have Item Creation feats. That means near infinite crafting time. Nobody has broken anything because when players ask to create something outlandish or broken I tell them no, or work with them to make a more reasonable compromise.
The current system allows for creativity and good guidelines for design. You can't just redesign the Item Creation rules and ignore other issues like Christmas Tree effect, the Big Six problem and the generally time-consuming unfun issue of Inventory Book-Keeping, and while we're at it Encumberance.
Also I am so against XP costs for ANYTHING, it is purely punitive and disincentivizes item creation (and therefore player contribution to the world). Plus some of us don't even use XP any more (good riddance).
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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It's not even about that part. It's about the part that is hard coded that needs work. 50% cost to craft is way to easy and you should be allowed to craft on the road. That's just two little things that could easily be changed and do some good.
...
Power levels in different groups varies massively in PFRPG... from day 1 some groups are running 10 point buy and some groups 35 point buy. Some GMs rain treasure down on the group in the form of gold and some sneak it out in a few powerful items which must be used as is or sold for half value. Some groups have three players and some have eight. GMs have to compensate for huge variances in the collective power level of a given table. That's the GM's role.
If you have a table full of power gamers, they are going to chew through stuff a new group struggles with. A group that crafts everything will have better choice of items and better items. It's another form of optimizing, nothing more, nothing less.
Clearly the abusability of the Gunsmithing feat nor a caster with some spare cash and access to fabricate is so much less of a concern than the MI rules. ;)
Yar.
... uhm, they ARE looking into clearing up some of the issues with the item creation rules, just probably not in the way you want. However, the staff of paizo would love to hear your opinions, comments and suggestions if you would be willing to present them in a respectful manner.
GO HERE to become a part of the solution!
~P
Unfortunately this is part of the opening statement:
NOTE:
* We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to. This book isn't going to invalidate the Core Rulebook.
So for those of us that believe that the rules need serious revision, participating in that thread is both a waste of our and the Paizo staffs time.
My changes for the crafting of magical devices would be:
1. An increase in DC so that failure is an option. Note that "failure" would likely just increase the time to create an object, unless it was a critical failure.
2. An increase in time, and the time would based off the Caster Level and Spell Levels needed, not the cost. Time for permanent items would be at a minimum of a week and go up from there. Scrolls and Potions would still be either hours or at most a couple days.
3. Crafting would be a full time "job" so you couldn't do it while traveling or adventuring.
4. You would need a designated workroom, with the tools needed to create the base item.
5. The necessary craft skill to create the base item.
6. No upgrading of already created items. (Sorry, but I really dislike this aspect of the current rules.)
7. For all the Special Abilities of weapons and armor, the magic crafter would have to be involved in the creation of the base item, because the elements necessary for the Special Abilities would have to added from the start. (For certain things, such as Bane it could be actually against the law in some places to create these as it would require physical elements from the creature to be used in the creation.)
8. Access to the needed raw materials would be more difficult, you would need a settlement with a purchase limit big enough to cover the cost as one lump sum.
I would NOT include an XP cost, but would probably give XP for creating things. (There would be things for the other party members to do during the same time to earn XP also.)
Mundane item creation would also be more difficult, a Masterwork item would likely need a DC 25 for successful creation.
Another part I want to hit on is time.
Now if your DM is hitting you with time sensitive quests then I can see it working but I am going to give you a more common and real life scenario.
Players: Okay well the Wizard wants to craft a bunch of items so we are going to stay here until he and the fighter are finished and then we will go.
DM: *looks over the adventure that took him hours to plan out*. Alright lads tell you what? BAM! Time goes by, you have all your stuff so just pay your gold and let's start the adventure.
I can't tell you how many times that has happened in various groups that I have been in. The time part usually always gets handwaved.
that isn't the fault of the item creation rules, that is the fault of the DM handwaving the creation time. it's akin to allowing players to control when they can rest.
during that time the following could have happened
the bard/rogue/(insert face here) could establish connections and possibly acquire a cohort or lacky or few. may possibly start a guild.
the fighter/barbarian/(insert martial class here) could train the local guard and earn some positive rep with the locals
the cleric/inquisitor/(insert divine caster here) could found a church or monastery in the local area to gather faith for their patron and made a deal with the area for permission.
Or "We keep getting complaints about brake failures on our latest model."
"Yeah, but half of the respondents say their brakes work fine. No problem."
This is a very fitting analogue to the dilemma. It provides a remarkably clear answer to the very specific question asked in this specific thread.
Car manufacturers only consider it a problem worth fixing when it becomes less expensive for them to fix the problem than to pay for the lawsuits that result from the problem. If this is the scenario shallowsoul is waiting for then I understand his frustration because clearly when the 'airbags are defective on your crafting system' it still doesnt send anyone to the hospital.
Unless it does.
So lets not do that ok?
And any estimate about how much profit is lost by gamers going to another system because they wont buy books for a system without crafting is conjecture of a level that I would call 'politician' so few game developers base their rules on sales metrics in this way.
5e or DNDNext or whatever will be an interesting example of a company trying it. The sales models is basically 'it cant suck because if there are 3 different ways to handle it all three options will be published! You'll like it because we asked you what you wanted and then you told us then we printed it! Now you buy it!'
Could be a fantastic example of a crowdsourcing success, it could be a hideous example of a crowdsourcing fail. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Cant wait to see how that one turns out.
Between the crafting feats themselves, accelerated crafting and 'Tiny Hut' and 'Ring of sustenance' I think you've already made a huge investment into crafting for it not to be easy and successful even to craft on the road. This technique can make getting in your full 8 hours of crafting in each night pretty easy as long as your nights arent full of battle.
The point is it isnt really gm fiat to fill it with battle. You're not changing a rule. There's nothing in the rules that say your crafting cant be interrupted. Thats not fiat. Thats using a valid tool to give your crafters a hard time and there's nothing wrong with it as long as the players are having fun.
To say a character hasnt invested enough important resources for the return he gets is misguided at best but only IMHO.
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The Hedge's Tale..
Back in my day crafting was a whole lot harder than it is today, son.
There once was a very powerful wizard named shallowsoul, and he spent his life making things difficult for everyone he met and called it 'fun'. His life's mission to hit level 17 and learn the wish spell, so that he could spread his 'fun' far and wide.
He did achieve his sinister goal and, for a time, a shadow fell over the world of mages, for his first wish was a +40 to the dc of crafting checks for all magic crafting of every crafter the world over. He called this wish 'shallowsoul's retribution' and under his dark reign the world was stripped of all magic items which were then destroyed by this wizard such that all personal items were mundane.
Quickly many wizards fell, without their defenses, having been found truly fragile and fleeting. The world fell into darkness as man's strength was measured by the sinew in his arm instead of the sinews of his head, and without magic this strength proved inadequate not only against the great dangers of the world but too against the more mundane of our enemies. Orcs and ogres began to come to power because, without magic, even the strongest blades would not live long enough to grow powerful or skilled enough to slow the darkness down. All appeared to be lost.
Then the great wizard Paizo rose up and created a powerful spell of light called 'or not' and now we wizards, clerics, and other crafters worth their salt work hard to repopulate the world with magic items to undo the darkness that held sway over our world not so very long ago. Craft as much as ye can, son, for he wasn't the first, nor will he be the last great mage to wish misery upon our lands, and he has not yet been defeated. There are tales of a magic item crafted by the sinister shallowsoul himself called 'the table where shallowsoul games at' which still have detrimental effects to crafting within their area of effect. There is no telling how many such tables exist, but shallowsoul is strong and determined. He may yet have his way with us.
We must maintain the vigilance of the hedge or all will be for naught.
Its already been proven to be broken.Why fix something which is not broken?
The magic item creation rules are far from perfect but that applies to the entire rule system. They are only overpowered if your DM is an idiot. In which place he shouldn' be a DM in the first place.
if you aremthe DM, the solution is even more easy:Don't like them? Don't use them!
By who?
So no it isn't proven broken. It might be believed to be broken by some people (including you), but till the majority is persuaded it can't be proven by word of mouth.
Now do you have charts, statistics, or doctorates (if so I'm proud that you could get a doctorate using PF) about it?Lets not pretend to be so "out of the loop" eh?
You you have to do is read the other threads and you will have your answer.
DMs stepping in to control things does not count as a fix or "the rules do work".
What is so "out of the loop"? Sure there are some people out there raising various issues about magic item creation. A few are clearly in the "it is completely broken" camp, like yourself, many are in the "a few things need clarifying" camp and lots are in the "it's fine as it is" camp. But to suggest there is some strong current of opinion pushing for complete overhaul is fanciful.
If so many people are fundamentally unhappy with the rules there would be a lot more people pushing that barrow on the forums. If the Devs thought there were such high levels of disatisfaction with magic item creation, and that the level was a concern, then they would be doing more than what they are currently doing on the issue.
I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats and give them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th level), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th level), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th level). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
I don't really like most of these suggestions. A lot of them are too metagamey to make sense. "Why can't I craft item while camping?" "Because the rules say so." Honestly breaks my immersion.
75% cost also seems too high. Maybe 60%, I don't know.
Ingredient ranks is interesting, but can really derail a more story-driven game, especially for anything above a +3. +6 or above I could see. But if it took too long to get these ranks, I'd honestly say it's just not worth using.
I'd be okay with crafting lab, but the magic creation rules are vague on the "how" of enchanting. Is it down blacksmith-style, or is it just a wizard meditating while holding the sword and material?
XP cost is the worst idea ever. This was the one change I was happy about when PF came out. Makes no sense and is just arbitrarily penalizing. For every item you make, suddenly you are that much weaker. Let's not forget that some people don't even like using XP anymore for leveling (myself one of them). This is one that can safely hope that Paizo will not add back into the game.
The one thing I actually really like, though, is splitting up the feats. That's something I can get behind. Splitting up Craft Wondrous Item is the one I'd like to see split up. Unsure how. However, if you do make more feats, I would suggest keeping the wizard's bonus feats for Crafting Magic Items.
Aside from the feat split, crafting lab, and ingredients, most of the other ideas seem to needlessly penalize a player for wanting to play a crafter. I don't like that, as I love playing blacksmithing characters and I love making my own cool weapons and naming them.
XP cost the way 3.5 handled it sucked because of how it interacted with levels and xp gain.
Getting weaker after making magic items is a standard fantasy trope. The xp cost in Paizo is almost non-existent at later levels, because it takes so much more xp to gain a level in Paizo. Keep in mind that it takes more xp to reach level 12 in Paizo then it does to reach level 20 in 3.5. At level 17 8000 xp to make a 200k item is a mere fraction of a CR17 encounter.
And it would FIRMLY shut down simulacra making magic items, while in actually penalizing nothing, while letting Crafters put something of themselves into every item they make.
There should also be a stated 'value' to crafting magic items, so people can charge fairly for their time.
he's also missing the #1 rule: Enforce time requirements, with the corollary of 'what is everyone else doing while the wizard is sitting around crafting?'
==Aelryinth
i enjoy a good blacksmith, tailor, or brewmaster. as well as various other crafts. a chef, farmer, or bandit also has their fun. but what was the bandit before he became a bandit?
XP cost the way 3.5 handled it sucked because of how it interacted with levels and xp gain.
Getting weaker after making magic items is a standard fantasy trope. The xp cost in Paizo is almost non-existent at later levels, because it takes so much more xp to gain a level in Paizo. Keep in mind that it takes more xp to reach level 12 in Paizo then it does to reach level 20 in 3.5. At level 17 8000 xp to make a 200k item is a mere fraction of a CR17 encounter.
And it would FIRMLY shut down simulacra making magic items, while in actually penalizing nothing, while letting Crafters put something of themselves into every item they make.
There should also be a stated 'value' to crafting magic items, so people can charge fairly for their time.
he's also missing the #1 rule: Enforce time requirements, with the corollary of 'what is everyone else doing while the wizard is sitting around crafting?'
==Aelryinth
To me, though, XP wouldn't make sense as you're are losing experience, not health. To model that, I'd prefer maybe taking Constitution damage or something similar. It's still damaging without feeling metagamey or putting you fair behind.
Admittedly, it's probably because I don't use XP anymore.
The amount it puts you behind is so small it's irrelevant. And XP IS life energy...just ask your permanent negative levels. Constitution damage is just physical health. making magic items isn't like a disease or running a marathon. There's a little bit of your soul in that there Bracer+2!
==Aelryinth
I'm sure someone has already pointed this out but it the GM and not the players who control how much wealth the party has.
Furthermore crafting does not necessarily increase player wealth. It only leads to a significant increase in wealth when the majority of wealth the party picks up is in the form of gold. Because when you sell an item for half and craft an item you wind up with an item that is of equal value(or close) to the ones you sold.
In my experience the majority of wealth is NEVER primarily in the form of gold. Unless you are fighting a dragon guarding his horde the wealth you pull out will probably be in the form of the bosses gear and whatever gold he had on hand. Everyone look into your wallet, how much money is in it right now. Now look at the computer you are typing on, how much money did you pay for that?
Now there is the point that the money you pull out of the ogres pocket will slowly add up, much like a change jar does, and that would be a significant increase, but a crafter will not always make their spell craft check. They might fail and lose resources. So I am not seeing crafting as being all that broken.
I am of course not counting custom items. Custom anything can break any game.
A counter to my above argument
No party is so versatile that they will be able to use every item they pick up. Because crafting allows to ensure you get something useable from the adventure at cost it is an increase in wealth because you seldom have to take gold hits selling an item to buy one you can use.
Although I'm not sure how big a difference that is.
My group plays sandbox style. We typically pick our own jobs and have plenty of downtime between campaigns. It would be very contrived to limit time between adventures.
My group plays sandbox style, too. Funny thing, though, the people that don't like us keep working to take their revenge, even when we sit around in town. Things even happen in the parts of the world we've never explored, and we'll find out about the effects of those events later.
If anything, I'd argue that sandbox gameplay is even easier to make time an issue than in APs. In a sandbox, you don't have a set plot that the party is expected to play through. If they wait around and miss the events you'd expected them to see, oh well, that's their choice.
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It has been proven time and time again that the current system is broken. Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?
The magic item creation rules in Pathfinder are significantly better than in any previous version of D&D going back 40 years, and better than the item creation rules in many other RPGs as well. The magic item rules are designed to be flexible and allow a wide variety of magical devices and effects. A system with that degree of flexibility will inevitably require a degree of GM supervision.
From your comments, you seem to want a rigidly codified system with narrowly construed benefits for each investment made into crafting - which would have detrimental effects on flexibility.
Also, from your comments, many of the problems you have experienced stem from GMs not actually following the rules. What makes you think those GMs would follow new rules any better?
I don't really like most of these suggestions. A lot of them are too metagamey to make sense. "Why can't I craft item while camping?" "Because the rules say so." Honestly breaks my immersion.
Because as I see it, you need a quiet well lit, area with a place to put notes, components, incense burners, the small dish of quicksilver, etc. Also what happens if you are attacked by wandering monsters while you are trying to craft?
The title says it all.
It has been proven time and time again that the current system is broken. Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?
Why refuse to fix whats broken?
They have not been proven to be broken, in fact I think they have been proven to work perfectly. I would be very cross if you get your way.
I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats and give them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th level), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th level), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th level). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
Hmm, as I suspected. All your suggestions would make the game less fun :(
P.S. I'm not saying this because I play a lot of crafters. I play crafters sometimes, but my current characters are barbarian, rouge and ranger. When I do play a caster though I like the crafting rules just the way they are (and no, we don't abuse the rules by making silly items).
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More than one thread about crafting? Yay! Spreadin my love around!
So lets do some accounting and see how the 5 tiers of getting what i want compare
I want my fighter to have a +1 bastard sword.
Me: I'd like to buy a +1 bastard sword for my fighter.
Magicmart: Isle 13. That'll be 2335 Gold pieces! Thank you for shopping at magic mart.
Me: I'd like to buy a +1 bastard sword for my fighter
Crafter and resident mage: If you provide a sword our mage can masterwork it and enchant it and it'll be ready for you by tomorrow.
Otherwise i've got to make the sword myself. That could take up to a week.
So either 8 days or see you tomorrow. 2335 gold pieces. I appreciate your business.
Had to make it to level 5 first
Took craft weapons and armor feat
Never gonna get that feat back.
Crafting for profit would probably pi$$ my gm off so instead I hope the party needs more cheap weapons and armor in the future or else that's the last i'll use of that!
I'd say a local mage let me borrow his spellbook to learn fabricate and masterwork spells but why go easy on us eh? lets say we had to buy the scrolls.
Thats 1125+150+2 hours to understand them. Spellcraft check take 10 so i dont read them wrong... 7 hours to pen them into my spellbook...
Cost of writing into the spellbook is another 290... Wait till tomorrow so i can memorize them. Buy lump of steel for what.... 12gp?
Components for masterwork spell... 300...
At least an hour to make the masterwork sword... Now go shopping for the materials to enchant it. Assuming they're easy to come by thats another 1000gp
And we're ready to go! Day of uninterrupted crafting and take 10 on the spellcraft check and voila! +1 Bastard sword for the low low price of...
2877gp, a feat that regardless of if I plan to abuse it or even use it ever again probably paints a giant red target on my back for arbitrary gm smiting...,
and no less than 18 hours of focused uninterrupted effort! Whee! I knew crafting was the easy way!
I wonder what the rest of my party has been up to...
I'm leaving town tomorrow so i have to craft on the road?
Well we'll have to wait until level 7 then so I can get tiny hut so i can craft at night.
I'd have taken craft ring but the feat I got at 7 is a character feat not a class feat so gm fiat on if i can take craft ring or not.
If not then i've gotta get that sustenance ring at cost. hope its available at magicmart. 2500 gold for that.
Tiny hut was a 3rd level scroll so thats 4 more hours of learning and scribing. 375 for the scroll and 90 to write it down.
Wait a week while the sustenance ring warms up...
Hope no close family members/members of the royal family/important plot devices die horribly while those 7 days pass... GMs are such fickle creatures...
Where was I? Ah yes! Voila! +1 bastard sword for the low low price of
5842, a feat, 7 days of twiddling my fingers after 22 quiet uninterrupted hours of research,scribing, casting... and cheating by using style 1 to get my sustenance ring.
And not taking into any account the time it took me to shop around for any of that stuff.
That sure was easy. Maybe too easy. I'm not sure I can TRULY TRUUULY appreciate that magic item without say... having one or two more arbitrary roadblocks thrown in my way.
Bring it on! Total cost 0! Time invested in aquisition? Whatever makes the gm feel warm and fuzzy on the inside!
When do I get it? Level 1. Level 17. Who knows!
I'm forged in the fires of GM Fiat and thats not just the alliteration talking.
+1 Bastard Sword? What are you trying to do? Break my campaign?
Theres no such thing as a magical sword.
You named your sword excalibur?
Thats kinda pretentious dont you think?
Looks like a plain old bastard sword to me... *sunder*
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Hmm, as I suspected. All your suggestions would make the game less...I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats and give them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th level), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th level), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th level). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
Cant please everyone.
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I don't really like most of these suggestions. A lot of them are...I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats and give them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th level), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th level), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th level). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
Well first off how would you be lugging that lab around while you are adventuring?
Why is 75% too high? You are still under the market value and it gets rid of the two for one bargain.