Did you look up the dictionary definitions for both words?
I'm not sure if the term "Chastity" is incorrect, but it looks fine to me.
Definition of chastity
noun
[mass noun]
the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse:
vows of chastity
Definition of celibacy
noun
[mass noun]
the state of abstaining from marriage and sexual relations:
a priest who had taken a vow of celibacy
Pretty flexible terms, but yes, Chastity fits.
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Chastity is all about being faithful, not about abstaining from intercourse.
However, since the generally accepted borderline between being faithful or unfaithful is the sexual act (it's much easier to define whether or not penetration has taken place than it is to define whether or not your feelings of affection for any person to whom you are not married have gone too far), then the moment you have sex with someone who is not your spouse is also seen to be the same moment that you became 'unfaithful'. This is why the meanings of chastity and celebacy have conflated over time.
A similar thing happened with the word, 'virgin'. Originally 'virgin' meant 'unmarried female human'. It had nothing to do with whether or not a person had had intercourse, nor was the term applicable to males.
But when society views that a woman is somehow spoiled or damaged after having sex, and when a woman is only allowed to have sex within marriage, then it was expected that an unmarried woman had never had sex. Men could do what they wanted.
Thus, the meaning of 'virgin' gradually became synonomous with 'never had sex', and gradually became applied to men too, and gradually lost its original meaning of 'unmarried female'.
In the bible, Mary was a virgin. She was described as such because she was not married to Joseph (or anyone), not because she hadn't had sex!
Over time, the meaning of 'virgin' shifted, and the 'virginity' of Mary evolved into a miracle of being with child without ever having sex(!), and since St. Augustine hated sex so much he called sex a 'sin', this evolved as Jesus being born 'without sin' meaning he was born 'without his mum having sex', which has indirectly led to millenia of persecution of women.
Isn't language funny?
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With some trepidation, I respond:
Chastity is all about being faithful, not about abstaining from intercourse.
I agree.
However, since the generally accepted borderline between being faithful or unfaithful is the sexual act (it's much easier to define whether or not penetration has taken place than it is to define whether or not your feelings of affection for any person to whom you are not married have gone too far), then the moment you have sex with someone who is not your spouse is also seen to be the same moment that you became 'unfaithful'. This is why the meanings of chastity and celebacy have conflated over time.
This is probably true.
A similar thing happened with the word, 'virgin'. Originally 'virgin' meant 'unmarried female human'. It had nothing to do with whether or not a person had had intercourse, nor was the term applicable to males.
This is also probably true.
But when society views that a woman is somehow spoiled or damaged after having sex, and when a woman is only allowed to have sex within marriage, then it was expected that an unmarried woman had never had sex.
Why is that first phrase there, except to stir up trouble? The rest of the sentence fits quite well without it.
Men could do what they wanted.
I disagree. If you said "Men did whatever they wanted," that would probably be correct.
Thus, the meaning of 'virgin' gradually became synonomous with 'never had sex', and gradually became applied to men too, and gradually lost its original meaning of 'unmarried female'.
This sounds correct.
In the bible, Mary was a virgin. She was described as such because she was not married to Joseph (or anyone), not because she hadn't had sex!
This is not correct. The word "virgin" comes from Latin. The New Testament was written in Greek; it doesn't use the word "virgin". As I understand it, the Greek more specifically talks about Mary not having sex.
Over time, the meaning of 'virgin' shifted, and the 'virginity' of Mary evolved into a miracle of being with child without ever having sex(!), and since St. Augustine hated sex so much he called sex a 'sin', this evolved as Jesus being born 'without sin' meaning he was born 'without his mum having sex', which has indirectly led to millenia of persecution of women.
How is this helpful to the discussion? The discussion of chastity compared with celibacy isn't really affected by this paragraph. Again, this part seems to be here only to be inflammatory.
Why do you want to pick a fight?
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The Oath itself is vary different from its name anyhow.
You can't be in any romantic relationship ever, ever, ever. So no kissing or looking longingly into someone's eyes. The cheese stands alone.
I remember at one point you couldn't even sleep within 30 feet of the rest of your party. However it looks like they changed that later. Or I can't find it.
It's kind-of one the the more flexible Oaths in terms of playing the game, as having a relationship in-game is weird in a lot of circumstances anyhow. And the benefits really outweigh the negatives.
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Hi, Distant Scholar!
I have no problem at all with you critiquing my post, nor with you disagreeing with me! If someone posts something which may be seen as controversial they should accept any opposing views with good grace. : )
Although the entirety of my post was not directly commenting on chastity/celibacy, I thought it was interesting enough to share, and while YMMV, if this kind of thing were not allowed then this forum would be one tenth of it's current size!
The bit about women 'being spoiled or damaged' by sex while men could 'do what they want' is entirely accurate. Even in the west, it was only around 150 years ago when our attitudes changed; before then an unmarried woman was, quite literally, the legal property of her father, and that ownership was transferred to her husband during the wedding. ('Who giveth this woman'? The father!)
As property, she could be seen as 'damaged goods'! This meant that her behaviour, both before and during marriage, was strictly controlled, in the same way that a dog breeder keeps his thoroughbred b&#~# away from other dogs. Men weren't property; their behaviour was unrestricted.
Do you find this concept offensive! I do! But it has been true for the entirety of civilisation until the last 150 years! I'm very glad that it has changed!
Since reading your reply I've been in touch with my father, who is a doctor of theology and read the bible in it's original languages. I asked him about the whole 'Virgin Mary' thing, to find out what the original said.
In the Old Testament book of Isaiah (written in Hebrew) the word that would be translated into English as 'virgin' was 'almah', and it meant 'young woman'.
The only time Mary is called a virgin in the New Testament is when Matthew quotes from Isaiah, using Greek instead of Hebrew, but is a (slightly altered) version of the same prophesy.
The idea that the 'Virgin' Mary was 'without sin' because she had never had intercourse is not Biblical, but a Catholic invention of the 4th-5th centuries, to go along with their idea that the 'Original Sin' was sex (Eve seducing Adam with the Forbidden Fruit), when in the Bible it says no such thing.
This has led to discrimination against women in the west ever since! It makes me angry to think about it, and I make sure that in my games and using my characters that the game world has not followed the same, destructive path. I try very hard to avoid the usual sexual and gender stereotypes; this doesn't mean that my attempts are always successful. : )
Although the New Testament states that Mary had never 'known' Joseph, it also says the Jesus is the only begotton son of God, implying that God 'begot' Jesus in the conventional manner, in contrast to God being the 'father' of us all.
'Picking a fight'? Not my intention. Engaging in a stimulating debate on the broader implications of chastity/celibacy? Great! Fight your corner, critique my post and expect your's to be critiqued in return! I believe we can do this without being nasty to each other, no matter how much we may disagree.
Peace!
Debates about the merits of real-world religion belong in Off-Topic Discussions, not Pathfinder RPG General Discussion.
Debates about the merits of real-world religion belong in Off-Topic Discussions, not Pathfinder RPG General Discussion.
You're right; sorry.
Isn't Chastity about not having sex, period and Celibacy about not having romantic relationship?
So if you are hit multiple rounds by Evard's black tentacles, have you broken your oath of chastity?
The Oath itself is vary different from its name anyhow.
You can't be in any romantic relationship ever, ever, ever. So no kissing or looking longingly into someone's eyes. The cheese stands alone.
I remember at one point you couldn't even sleep within 30 feet of the rest of your party. However it looks like they changed that later. Or I can't find it.
It's kind-of one the the more flexible Oaths in terms of playing the game, as having a relationship in-game is weird in a lot of circumstances anyhow. And the benefits really outweigh the negatives.
LOL, the cheese stands alone.
The 30ft "rule" is as funny as. No touching, no thinking of cuddlng up to the half orc or stroking the oracles hair. Must not... entertain erotic thoughts. ARRRRRRGH THE CHEESE STANDS ALONE!
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Fair comment. I apologise for 'thread-jacking'.
Distant Scholar PM'd his reply and we continued like that.
Back to the thread:-
• chastity means remaining faithful, so a 'chaste' couple can shag each other's brains out to their heart's content, just so long as they don't shag anyone else.
• celibacy doesn't imply virginity, it just means you're not going to have intercourse.
The ideas about not sleeping within 30-feet of others, not stroking hair etc. are not part of the actual celibacy, but are intended to remove temptation.
This topic risk turning into a flame war just because the definitions of the words vary by places, cultures and times (+ translations and languges filters).
I am pretty sure we can all be calm, maybe we can start an oath of calm?
Personally, dictionary definitions aside, I suspect this Oath is simply taking advantage of "Common Usage" of the word chastity. Ask a hundred random people what chastity means, and I suspect more than half (likely a much higher proportion) will believe it's functionally the same as celibacy. And, as I noted above, the OED (in my personal opinion, the authority on the usage of English words) includes "especially from all sexual intercourse". Which pretty much nails it, for me, when coupled with the idea that game designers try to make their rules accessible - while an "Oath of Celibacy" in-game would be perfectly reasonable, in my (anecdotal) experience more people recognise and believe they understand the word chastity, so it is the path of least resistance to the Oath name describing what the Oath requires.
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As far as I have learned, chastity (from lat. castus = pure, so the origin of the word doesn't help here)literally meant virginity until the late middle ages, while being chaste meant 'clean/pure from non-accepted sexual acts'.
Celibacy (from lat. caelibatus)only means unmarried. For devote christians that meant abstinent from sex, as well, but this doesn't hold true for most Pathfinder gods.
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Was there some sort of mechanical gain from kissing, hugging and sleeping with someone that I missed?
You take this feat because you are giving up on these things, it's essentially a sacrifice. What exactly are you sacrificing in the first place to gain the benefits of the oath? I don't remember the last "love scene" that was played out in our games that gave us a mechanical advantage. I guess if you were doing an intrigue type of game where you needed to "sleep with the enemy" but that's a very niche type of game.
I would guess that perhaps the reason "chastity" was used rather than "celibacy" may be as simple as the fact that "chastity" sounds more old-world, and has more old-world connection with religious ideas.
Style sometimes beats precision.
Bees on birds eh? Behold the half bee, bee-swallow!
I thought the vow of chastity was the one where a monk cannot even be the willing recipient of a touch spell. That's more like sour milk than cheese.The Oath itself is vary different from its name anyhow.
You can't be in any romantic relationship ever, ever, ever. So no kissing or looking longingly into someone's eyes. The cheese stands alone.
I remember at one point you couldn't even sleep within 30 feet of the rest of your party. However it looks like they changed that later. Or I can't find it.
It's kind-of one the the more flexible Oaths in terms of playing the game, as having a relationship in-game is weird in a lot of circumstances anyhow. And the benefits really outweigh the negatives.
LOL, the cheese stands alone.
The 30ft "rule" is as funny as. No touching, no thinking of cuddlng up to the half orc or stroking the oracles hair. Must not... entertain erotic thoughts. ARRRRRRGH THE CHEESE STANDS ALONE!
For all the problems it cause, the Monk/Ninja Vow of Chastity/Celibacy is kind of useless at 1 Ki point every 5 level, the Paladin Oath of Chastity/Celibacy kinda make sense, in some way.
As far as I have learned, chastity (from lat. castus = pure, so the origin of the word doesn't help here)literally meant virginity until the late middle ages, while being chaste meant 'clean/pure from non-accepted sexual acts'.
Celibacy (from lat. caelibatus)only means unmarried. For devote christians that meant abstinent from sex, as well, but this doesn't hold true for most Pathfinder gods.
This is how I learned them too, but chastity is sometime synonymous with abstinance more than Virginity.
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Huh. I did not expect this many replies.
Chemlak is probably right.
I just remembered a thread on this forum about the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel where one poster basically said "I'm fine with more information on him as long as Paladins of Ragathiel do not have to take the Oath of Chastity." I do not think they would do that. Any thoughts on that?
Ragathiel is the Lord of Chivalry, so I imagine it just means his Paladins are like, super strict and stuff.
Turboknights, if you will.
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So if you are hit multiple rounds by Evard's black tentacles, have you broken your oath of chastity?
Oh sure, blame the victim for being groped against their will. No means no, and so does an escape artist check!
Back to the original topic, I always thought chaste or chastity meant that someone remained "untouched" sexually until marriage. I always imagine celibacy as being more like the monks or nuns who vow to never have sex. But those are just my impressions, not backed up by any dictionary.
Style sometimes beats precision.
Thats what I keep telling my girlfriend! But no I'm the weird one...