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I love my gamers (this is part rant and seeking the best way to address a problem that has compounded), but we've hit a few snags that slow gameplay. The campaign is 30 sessions in and is hitting higher (12th) level, where the issues have become noticeable due to increased options.
1. IPad/Tablet use. One player, whose first foray into PF is this campaign, uses a tablet for his character. He has no clue what his character's stats because the tablet is powered down and displays only one limited page at a time. He relies on the machine to do the math for combat adjustments, leading to everyone sitting as he hits different tabs, misses keys, and so on. He constantly forgets useful abilities such as Improved Iron Will's reroll and Deadly Aim (though an archer-spec'd fighter hardly needs more damage...). It takes 30 seconds sometimes to get a reply on a Perception check because he has to find the right tab and scroll down.
2. Access to the PRD. We don't own all the books but I said pre-campaign anything new would be ok. Mistake. Players have added abilities, items, and spells that they don't know how to use when I ask about them, and I don't always have my tablet to reference the PRD app. Given a redo, I'd limit things from books we don't own. Assuming the players are not keen on change and lose notecards, how to address it mid-campaign (30+ sessions)?
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1. Get a copy of his sheet and print it out. If he forgets to use it it's his own problem. Write down the attacks with the modifiers from the feats, already added in as separate attacks to help him out, and then ban the use of tablets by players at the table.
2. Just make it a simple rule that if you are going to use something from the prd to print it out, whether you type all your prd stuff up on one new page or print the specific prd page out that way it is on hand and easily referenced.
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Triablgeek has the right of it here. Have your tablet based player come in with a print-off or notecard with his skills, initiatives and other pertinent modifiers already listed on it.
Make your players print off the screen for any items or feats they don't own the books to, this will help immensely.
Make sure they have pre-made stats for any Summons or companions they can bring into play.
Seconded. That's what I do with my players - ask them to put at least a summarized version of any unusual abilities on their sheets. Helps since we use an online storage (Google Drive) for our sheets, I can check them at any time.
Be glad he's not playing a caster... I ended up keeping a notebook of some stuff like attacks after feats ect. And have the book and page number next to each feat or ability that I don't have memorized yet. Make him use a phisical character sheet your the dm that's the rules right?
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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My group had to deal with me experimenting with tablet play when I first bought one. There was a game where they waited five minutes for me to just adjust HP. It was painful.
He needs to have an easily accessed copy of his character. If he doesn't want paper, maybe he will go for a laptop with Hero Lab. He needs to take better responsibility for his part of the game, and trying to speed up play is part of that. If he can't tell you something quickly, his character doesn't participate at that time.
As for the other part, if they want to use those rules they need to be able to reference them. Tell them that if you have to look it up in the middle of a game, they can't use the ability, feat, or item. Either they have a printed copy, a screen capture on a device, or the actual book. If you can't look at the rules within a minute of asking what they do, they can't use it.
For both, putting a time limit on things will quickly cause the players to rethink how they play. If the tablet player can't tell you information within a minute, his character does nothing. If a player has an item from an online source but can't tell you what it does within a minute, they can't use it. This might seem cruel, but it will get the point across.
Let them know, anything that slows down the game is bad and won't be tolerated.
Our table was too big for the laptops. Most people went to plain paper. Two of us went to iPads. One guy has a spreadsheet that scrolls left, right, up and down. I made sure that there was no scrolling. If I have to edit something quickly, I will use a pad of paper. I roll normal dice on the table (the GM would have nothing else)
If I had to get something offline, I would print it out. I have a friend with a Wizard who has all his spells printed out in a folder. He doesn't go searching through books when a description is needed. Technology isn't the only thing that can slow the game down.
I think the bottom line is just being prepared.
My group had to deal with me experimenting with tablet play when I first bought one. There was a game where they waited five minutes for me to just adjust HP. It was painful.
He needs to have an easily accessed copy of his character. If he doesn't want paper, maybe he will go for a laptop with Hero Lab. He needs to take better responsibility for his part of the game, and trying to speed up play is part of that. If he can't tell you something quickly, his character doesn't participate at that time.
As for the other part, if they want to use those rules they need to be able to reference them. Tell them that if you have to look it up in the middle of a game, they can't use the ability, feat, or item. Either they have a printed copy, a screen capture on a device, or the actual book. If you can't look at the rules within a minute of asking what they do, they can't use it.
For both, putting a time limit on things will quickly cause the players to rethink how they play. If the tablet player can't tell you information within a minute, his character does nothing. If a player has an item from an online source but can't tell you what it does within a minute, they can't use it. This might seem cruel, but it will get the point across.
Let them know, anything that slows down the game is bad and won't be tolerated.
While the time limit is a valid and good idea, I would do a bit more than 1 minute, from reading different threads I think between 2 and 5 is average.
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While the time limit is a valid and good idea, I would do a bit more than 1 minute, from reading different threads I think between 2 and 5 is average.
I usually go with "You have 1 minute to begin your action". It can take them a minute or two to actually resolve everything, but they need to have decided on what they're doing, declared their action and begun making appropriate rolls, moving minis, etc. within one minute. 60 seconds is a long time, and an engaged player should be plotting their next turn before their initiative actually comes up.
I usually go with "You have 1 minute to begin your action". It can take them a minute or two to actually resolve everything, but they need to have decided on what they're doing, declared their action and begun making appropriate rolls, moving minis, etc. within one minute. 60 seconds is a long time, and an engaged player should be plotting their next turn before their initiative actually comes up.
That makes more sense
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I punted all the tech toys off my groups gaming table after people spent too much time playing with Youtube videos and chatting with outside friends during gaming. Totally wrecked what little immersion was actually going on.
If you do allow them, definitely require them to have a paper copy of their character. This way they can track hps, conditions, blah blah, on the ipad, but the static stuff is in dead tree form.
Our group also uses initiative cards to speed up initiative and help me out at a glance. I make each player write down their ACs(flat, touch, regular), saves, skills, feats, and languages. If I need to make a secret roll or determine if someone understands a certain NPC speaking a rare tongue, I can tell by scanning the cards behind my screen.
The main use for the initiative cards is speeding up our turns. Once they roll initiative, I order the cards, and tell the group whose turn it is and who is "on deck" so they can be prepared when it is their turn to go. We had to move to this format to keep things moving briskly with an 8 man group.
1) I like using a laptop myself but my feelings toward tablet use is that it will slow things down, although I could be persuaded otherwise. Technology in general will make people distracted if they are not disiplined (you tube heroes go!) but it can also keep things organized and make it go faster when well used. Regardless if a laptop/tablet is being used paper character sheets should be a must as you never know when technology could break and it can be faster to look at paper with a quick glance. If gaming space is an issue try investing in dinner TV trays for peoples laptops/tablets, it could help depending on exactly how cramped you are.
To keep track of resources (like Ki, arcane power, ect) I like poker chips. To keep track of inititive use index cards with a couple relevant stats! ex - preception, saves. This can let you roll preceptioins in secret as needed without having to ask.
2) Personally I find that (once you learn how to navigate) the PRD is WAY faster than looking something up in a hardcover.
Do you have a person that likes to rule lawyer? If so let them be in charge of looking things up for people. They will likely be fast at it. If it is really bad then use the rule 'if you don't know what it does then you can't use it'. Also don't be to scared to make ad-hoc rulings for the sake of time management unless it is super important. Make a note to look things up when you get a spare moment (after session, food break, ect).
All that being said the PRD is a good source and players should print the information they are going to be using, obviously not the whole PRD but what is relevant to the character.
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Obviously this is not an option available to every group, but with Herolab licenses being able to be purchased in groups of 4-5 under one master license, it makes sense for some groups to use this program exclusively for characters.
Our group uses this and we are lucky enough to have three master license holders, so any new players just have to cough up $10 plus a share of any future player friendly expansions to buy in.
Whoever is GM requires every player to email him(or her) an updated portfolio every time they level. That way if someone needs something printed, updated, etc, it is easy to do. There have already been several times people have flat out forgotten their character sheets and needed them re-printed.
Makes life a LOT easier as a GM.
Plus, at least for the iPad, they are creating new tools for running your character from the tablet during the game to make things go faster and smoother. Still in testing, but looks promising.
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If you cannot do it well, you do not deserve the privilege. With such poor performance, he has no excuse not to use a paper sheet. It does not have to be the regular sheet, it can be a variant or even just loose leaf but have the info on paper. Take colored markers and color code it if the player is really incompenetent. Then you can tell the player they can look for the red numbers when they need AC/saves or green numbers when attacking, orange for skills, yell for init, ect. This is also helpful for brand new players.
I've used tablets and laptops before and with a very by the RAW GM I used herolab extensively. In the end I decided I like having a paper sheet anyway. It's easier to manage, spell card are nice too. Now I under a very homebrew GM I use a paper sheet and keep the tablet handy for quickly looking up things I've forgotten the mechanics of or seeing if some weird idea I just thought up is possible. Mind you I do all of my looking up and tablet use before my turn in combat and I don't use it for anything else during gaming. Being able to look up scrolls, wands and magic items as loot immediately is nice as well.
In my current group only one other person uses a tablet or laptop. In my previous group several people stopped using paper sheets in favor of Herolab and Chummer (for Shadowrun). Toward the end of our last Shadowrun campaign almost everyone was using Chummer and we started running out of room at the table for laptops. Part of the reason that happened was the GM started to strictly count ammo and such which is way more tedious on a paper sheet.
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There's a big difference between using a computer/tablet as an extra tool in addition to paper, versus using it as a crutch in place of paper.
As a GM, I've taken to having a laptop available to me at games, but I try to use it as little as possible. It's mostly only there in case I have to look up some obscure rule, or pull up some monster stats for an unexpected encounter. And I'm definitely not as fast with it as I am with paper.
I print out paper sheets for all the monsters that I'm planning to use in a session - and like Raymond Lambert suggests for new players, I have started color-highlighting my monster sheets for AC, attacks, saves, etc.
Paper is actually a really great technology for presenting static text. You can actually get WAY more text on a 8 1/2" x 11" sheet than you can on a tablet screen, and with good page design it can be easier to read.
I do like the spellbook apps for casters who have a boatload of spells to pick from, though.
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I have my laptop at the game table, as a player...but I only use it to look stuff up. When not in use, I keep it closed and sitting on another table or extra chair or something. I agree with other players saying you should get the player a printed-out character sheet, plus an extra page/some cards or something with saving throws, attack/damage rolls and bonuses, spell information, and such, for quick reference.
There's a big difference between using a computer/tablet as an extra tool in addition to paper, versus using it as a crutch in place of paper.
This is a big one. I have one player who has become so dependent on his character sheet, which in his words "Does everything for me", that he can barely stumble along without it.
Which is particularly annoying to the rest of us, as we can barely decipher his oh-so-helpful sheet.
He refuses to distribute character sheets on our email list and claims his printer doesn't work either. Annoying.
How about you print him a blank char sheet and have him fill it out? The old way.
I never got why people print filled sheets because with every change you need to print a new one.
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He refuses to distribute character sheets on our email list and claims his printer doesn't work either. Annoying.How about you print him a blank char sheet and have him fill it out? The old way.
I never got why people print filled sheets because with every change you need to print a new one.
Sheets get lost, ruined, or the writing is illegible.
Not having a sheet for the DM to review is bad form.
It's my first foray into watching "tablet gaming" and despite our belief machines move quicker, it's not true. The player doesn't own a printer currently but I think I'll see if he'd mind me printing for him.
Dont ask if he's mind, insist. If its slowing down the game, he has to adjust. He tried the tablet thing, its not working, time to move on. At 12th level if you cant manage your own abilities no game manager is going to solve your problems. You need to understand it and be able to do it yourself.
I recommend everyone puts their phone/electronic device face down on the table. First one to check theirs, pays for the pizza.
I kinda have the opposite experience. While for any PFS games I'd use a paper character sheet, for home games I only ever use laptop (Herolabs and rules-lookup on d20pfsrd or prd) and iPad (CharacterFolio and spellbook apps), and I'm by far the fastest player when it comes to looking up my own stats/skills/saves/spells and figuring encumbrance after equipment changes due to new loot is WAAAAAY easier. I use both so that I can lend one piece of equipment or another for 5-10 minutes at a time to another player for them to look up their own spells since their character sheet is too small to write in the whole wordings of the spell. Key things are to know how all my stuff adds up even without electronic help and to pay attention on other people's turns so as to know what page or app I'd need on my turn ahead of time.
I'm also in charge of transcribing the notes and loot group obtains. DM spouts off VOLUME of exposition at us and only typing can have any hope of keeping up as he doesn't really wait for ppl to catch up (much like a college/university professor). Another group member used to insist on doing group loot by pen & paper, but has reluctantly ended up needing to use my copies after every session for his bookkeeping records.
Notes, group inventory, and pdf character sheet versions of character Herolab portfolio files are saved and uploaded onto shared dropbox folder after every session so anyone else in group can always reference group notes or I can have access to my character in case there's an inpromptu game at the non-usual location with my laptop/iPad/iPhone. As I get more and more of my group to get dropbox, the shared campaign folder that auto-syncs up campaign/character files stored there would have even greater utility.
Granted all that isn't for everybody. If players can't keep up or avoid being distracted, they should be limited on what "toys" they can have during a game.
I'm personally opposed to limiting the sources to only "books you own". If they got access to PRD or d20pfsrd and have been using feats/spells/whatever from them, get them to use pen & paper everyone's so fond of and write whatever they're using down with ALL the relevent info.
For spell casters and maybe your tablet guy - notecards with brief information is nice. (A = Attack, D = Damage, F,R,W,etc.)
3rd Party feats and spells are slightly overpowered compared to feats and spells in the main books.
I'm a 13th level TWF paladin/fighter, so keeping track of the various attacks can get confusing. I use either a spare sheet of paper in my notebook or the gaming mat to keep track of buffs and such. I keep my sheet organized so that anyone can see where my temporary bonuses come from. It ends up looking like this (as an example):
2d6+13 +2d6 Holy
+1 Spiked Shield +24/19/114 (TWF 22/17/12)
1d8+11
Buffs:
Inspire Courage +1/+1
Bless +1/+0
Enlarge Person +0/+1
Divine Bond (Shield) +2/+2
Bull's Strength +2/+2
Smite Evil target +3/+9
HP
AC
F/R/W
And then from there I make changes based on the buffs I get or the target. I might make a separate one based on the smite evil target too because paladins at that level with TWF roll a crapton of dice.
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3rd Party feats and spells are slightly overpowered compared to feats and spells in the main books.
This is painfully false as a blanket statement. There are quite a few 3rd party publishers out there that do very good work, and in many cases they are better balanced then the options presented by paizo. In lots of other cases they are the same people (several writers for 3rd party material also freelance for paizo). This isnt the 3rd edition where there was a great divide between wizards and 3pp. Paizo works with the 3rd Party Writers for Pathfinder and vice versa.
Are there some products that are not well balanced out there? I am sure, but to put all 3pp in the same basket is a statement that could only be made out of ignorance to the quality material being produced.
Don't let him use the tablet for his character, dice rolls on the table, everyone needs to know their spells and abilities, and everyone should be thinking of their actions before it is their turn so they can execute during their turn. Also, if they forget something it is on them, be resonable with it as a GM, but if your player is continually saying they forgot something and want to add it in after the fact it is problematic (it also points to know your stuff).
2. Access to the PRD. We don't own all the books but I said pre-campaign anything new would be ok. Mistake. Players have added abilities, items, and spells that they don't know how to use when I ask about them, and I don't always have my tablet to reference the PRD app. Given a redo, I'd limit things from books we don't own. Assuming the players are not keen on change and lose notecards, how to address it mid-campaign (30+ sessions)?
Going off onto point 2, I think it’s a really bad idea to allow full access to the PRD. There’s a lot of crud there, poorly playtested if at all. Instead allow access only to the PRGRD.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/As to how, you’re the DM. Allow stuff that’s already on a sheet, nothing else.
I use a laptop extensively when I play and even more when I DM. I would not suggest this for the novice PC user, which is what I feel most people are.
I like hard copies when I am learning rules and reading cover to cover but nothing beats the search ability of the PC. I played around with using tablets and phones, but for the most part they are not fast enough for me. I still use my tablet when I want to look up something and keep a certain screen up on my laptop, but that doesn't happen too often.
I use Hero Lab for my characters. I print out a sheet every time I level. I also save a new file for each level so that I can use that character's info as a NPC at a later date. Nothing screams well fleshed out NPC more than a real PC played over a few years. I strongly suggest you print them. One player at my table had a PC malfunction and lost his hard drive and has not 1 piece of information about his PC. He played that guy for over a year!
When I DM I use D20pro for combats, even if I am using miniatures at the table. I just import all the NPCs into one blank map and line them all up when I am attacking. After a few sessions this has sped up game time more than I can even say.
I have Excel spreadsheets that figure things out in play, like what the DC is to jump certain heights.
Space is seriously an issue. I am in the military but when I return home I have designed a table that won't have a single place for books, laptops or papers. All that stuff will go to the side of the player on their own 'night stand' type space. That gives us a 3'x 6' playing area with no distractions!
One of the main reasons that I went to a computer and then to a tablet was the Monk that I am playing. Yea I eventually found a character sheet, but I am playing a Four Winds/Drunken Master and there is no space specifically for the archetypes.
I ended up making a custom character sheet on the computer.
I guess I am one of the few cases that doesn't play games, pays attention and rolls real dice.
I don't think that just because a couple of people are not being good players with their computers means that ALL people are bad players.
And just because my situation is perhaps unique doesn't mean all players should switch to computers either.