Hexcrafter Magus is a better Hexblade anyway.
To the OP:
If you like channeling intensified shocking grasp spells through keen scimitars and using dervish dance, then they're awesome.
(I've actually been enjoying playing a skirnir - they're interesting if you like the intricacies of the tactical game, because they are quite intricate.)
I just started a Skirnir recently and am finding it to be a very interesting option for more than just spamming shocking grasp. It gives good tactical options for both offense and defense and having a bonded object gives you good versatility as well.
@daemonprince: I asked Funky Badger, I'm going to have to ask you, too. What has your experience with the skirnir been like? You both use "tactical" to describe playing a skirnir, I'm hoping you can elaborate on the differences (beyond the obvious) in gameplay between vanilla and skirnir.
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Seems pretty cut and dry to me.Yep I concede that's pretty cut and dry. Could have sworn there was a stipulation against callshots and special manuevers but that could have been 3.5 rather than PF...
@Ravingdork- gotcha, breaking action economy to me means taking more actions than you should be able to earlier than you might otherwise be able to. For example I consider the summoner's cycling trick (let previous round summons attack, resummon they disappear new summons attack) to be a fairly nasty action economy breaker.
@Sidekick- Glass cannons don't have good hitpoints, wasn't commenting on defense w/d8 hit dice and often only a moderate Con score (most magus builds go Dex or Str then Int then Con) due to some MAD issues that magus can be kinda squishy! You can gear or buff your way to better HP but you only get so much wealth to spread around. Bear in mind these guys eat attacks of op like crazy for casting into melee.
@Seranov- You were talking to sidekick right?
"glass cannon" implies that you have low defenses, and high offense. a magus is not a glass cannon. a magus spending no more resources then a second level spell will have equal hp to a fighter or paladin. and once vampiric touch comes into the picture, or greater infernal healing, it now becomes even better then a fighter.
i know you are not calling fighters glass cannons.
any way my point was that you misused the term "glass cannon". when in actuality a magus is more "tanky" then a fighter, if you choose to play as such.
@Seranov= be quiet, YOU dont know what you're talking about. i did get the HD of the magus mixed up with the EK, but that's superficial. the point i made still stands.
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It really doesn't. You can't do all of those things you implied at the same time at level 1, or even half of them. Maybe if you've got some kind of ridiculous point buy and are Dex focused, but even then you're not hitting that hard until at least second level, because you're using your only feat on something that doesn't even help you yet.
Magi are fine when you play by the rules. The fact that you can't use Spellstrike/Spell Combat without making a Concentration Check is balance enough.
Let's debunk your rediculous claims right now, shall we?
Most of the time the magus is allot like a rogue, glass cannon against single target but you can do battlefield control ect.i wouldnt call a d10 + an ac of 22+ (at first level) and potentially a 4d6 +(str+1)(at first level) slap across the face at a +8(or more) to hit (at first level)
a glass cannon.
more like a resource dependent BBEG one shotter.
You have only a d8 HP and light armor at level one. This means, even if we ignore that you don't have money for it if you want to have anything worthwhile, you have a Chain Shirt at best.
At level one, using a 20 PB, you can have the following stats: 13 Str - 18 Dex - 11 Con - 16 Int - 10 Wis - 7 Cha. This means you'd have 18 AC at level one. Add Shield on top of that (burning one of your TWO spells that you can cast that day) puts you at 22 AC for one minute of the day. Ten rounds. Twenty if you burn your other 1st level spell on it, too. But look! You're not Shocking Grasping anything if you do that. And you're sure as hell not doing 4d6+Str+1 (where the hell does this +1 come from?) and you're doing it as +1 to attack, at best. You're doing 1d6+1d6+1, IF you haven't used all your spell slots on buffing your AC.
Now, let's go Strength based. You can have the following stats: 18 Str - 12 Dex - 12 Con - 16 Int 10 Wis - 7 Cha. You have, wearing a Chain Shirt, 15 AC, 19 with Shield (again, assuming your only two spells per day on it). You can attack with your Scimitar for 1d6+1d6+4 damage.
And that +1 or +4 to hit? Well that's +0 or +3 if you want to add to your Concentration Check so you don't end up losing spells left and right.
I repeat: You're wrong, and you have no idea what you're talking about.
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They have Use Magic Device so buy yourself some scrolls and wands...
In fact, because they have Use Magic Device, they are one of the top classes when it comes toutility .
A wizard is great but Use Magic Device gives you access to "all" forms of magic.'They have Use Magic Device'? You mean, they get +3 to UMD but don't otherwise use CHA.
A magus is pretty much going to have a lower INT than a Wizard, so maxing UMD has more trade-offs for magus than wizard, and a wizard has less need of physical stats than a magus so is more able to increase CHA if they want to.
Sure, go ahead and invest in UMD and use wands/scrolls with it, but it's not really anything special to Magus.
Anybody playing with Traits will be able to get a Class Skill bonus in whatever skill they want, it's hardly a unique class ability, and nobody is prevented from investing in non-Class Skills anyways.The idea of 'UMD is a Class Skill' negating the need for spell list seems absurd.
Why not remove Heal and Cure spells from Cleric, those spells still exist abstractly, so they can just UMD them.
If people see/want to have certain spells with a class, they want to have those on the spell list, not get +3 to UMD for Class Skill.But alot of people like Magus as-is, and it does what it does as-is pretty well.
12 cha (1) + 1 rank + Dangerously Curious (1) + 3 (Trained) + 2 (Masterwork tool) = 8
Hmmmm + 8 with minimal investment.
Didnt try very hard did you?
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It is something left over from 3.5 Forums.
Most common Gish builds only got to 6th level spells. Alongside that Casting was only Half of their job. Hence they became known as Half-Casters do to idiots on the forums.
Paladin/Ranger spells were mostly used to increase their Martial Abilities and only "Pretended" to cast.
If you actually look and can find the descriptions laid out by a 3.5 Developer an Alchemist is just on the Cusp of Pseudo & Half Casting.
Heck, you can find them referenced as such through out this Forum.
Personally, I think it is kinda stupid. Though this is the first I have heard of them referred as you say...
Also the Magus are combat monsters, but no better than a Fighter out of combat. And it seems fitting.
That is flat out wrong. On the 3.5 board, to be a gish, you needed at LEAST 7th level spells and most builds had 9th. Anything less then 7th and 16 bab wasn't really considered a gish (so yeah, technically the magus isn't a gish).
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Great on defense spells though. What I would do is create a magus that has access to arcane and divine. I would drop three spell levels of arcane and add three levels of divine. We would have a magus that can cast up to 3rd level arcane and 3rd level divine max.I would like to see a magus that uses divine spells.Inquisitor feels close(spells, class abilities, proficient in combat), but I can't think of that many Divine spells I'd want to channel through a weapon aside from Cure(undead)/Inflict(living) Wounds spells, until much later levels.Sounds a lot like having all kinds of cake, and eating it too. You'd be a one-man party; melee, arcane spells, divine spells, etc. Just need Trapfinding and/or Evasion and you'd be all set.
It can be done as-is, but at the moment it'd require a hefty amount of multiclassing and would spread a character out really thin.
Well the divine spell list would be a set list as well.
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I like how people that claim the magus are balanced, cite high levels as a balancing factor when it benefits them and lower levels as a balancing factor when it benefits them.
Concentration checks largely become not a thing past level 7 or 8.
The Magus IS balanced, though. What is he doing that's so ridiculous that a Barbarian or a Wizard can't already do, but better and with fewer limits?
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And everything you could do in 3.5 was well balanced and made sense.
The Magus arguments tend to follow the same line as the Wizard arguments. Schrodingers Magus/Wizard appears and is undefeated in the nova encounter.
Now the fact that there could be an extended encounter day that could quickly burn up all those useful spells, and that your empty slot does you little good during a combat get handwaved.
I find the magus somewhat clunky, but it isn't overpowered.
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I'd say the magus is broken, but not in the overpowered way. It just doesn't do its job. It's supposed to let you play a wizard/knight from level 1, but the spell list has almost no utilities on it. In combat they may be beasts, but out of combat they're useless. No rope trick, no see invisibility, no shrink item... They'd be a lot more functional with less flash and more clever wizard stuff.
Not only that, but none of the spells are spell level adjusted. The other 6 level casters have some spell levels adjusted down...and what the summoner gets adjusted down is just down right sickening...but the magus? Nope. Seriously the summoner gets haste before wizards do, so if the summoner can have haste as a level 2 spell, why can't the fighter/mage spell list have it at level 2 again? The magus spell list seriously need to be revamped.
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At level one, using a 20 PB, you can have the following stats: 13 Str - 18 Dex - 11 Con - 16 Int - 10 Wis - 7 Cha. This means you'd have 18 AC at level one. Add Shield on top of that (burning one of your TWO spells that you can cast that day) puts you at 22 AC for one minute of the day. Ten rounds. Twenty if you burn your other 1st level spell on it, too. But look! You're not Shocking Grasping anything if you do that. And you're sure as hell not doing 4d6+Str+1 (where the hell does this +1 come from?) and you're doing it as +1 to attack, at best. You're doing 1d6+1d6+1, IF you haven't used all your spell slots on buffing your AC.
@ level 1:
magus with 16 dex +2 human (18) chain shirt shield = 22 ac (one round buffing)magus with 16 int (14 more likely)
attack mod (Weapon Finesse)
+4 base, +1 (arcane pool), +3 shocking grasp = +8
wand of shocking grasp off hand touch main hand. no spell combat would deal 1d6 electric damage.
cast as a spell from the magus spell list with spell combat would be 2d6 electric and 1d6 physical +strength + arcane pool(1).
if you dropped weapon finesse and took spell focus evocation and spell specialization + trait bonus - 4d6 on shocking graps.
so i would be able to hit for (assuming WF):
+8 (check)
+3d6( oops i would have to wait until second level for the 4d6 you were right, and at 3rd level i would have 5d6)
and a 22 ac (check)
i guess YOU should be quiet because YOU dont know what you're talking about.
now you might have it in your mind that " a level 1 character cant have a chain shirt or blah blah blah, but i assure you that my 1st level character has a chain shirt on him, right now.
in PFS i have a wand of shield after my first session...
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have Use Magic Device'? You mean, they get +3 to UMD but don't otherwise use CHA.
A magus is pretty much going to have a lower INT than a Wizard, so maxing UMD has more trade-offs for magus than wizard, and a wizard has less need of physical stats than a magus so is more able to increase CHA if they want to.
We build very different characters.
At level 6, my PFS Magus has an 18 Int and +11 diplomacy.
Were I so inclined, I could have developed UMD instead.
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At level one, using a 20 PB, you can have the following stats: 13 Str - 18 Dex - 11 Con - 16 Int - 10 Wis - 7 Cha. This means you'd have 18 AC at level one. Add Shield on top of that (burning one of your TWO spells that you can cast that day) puts you at 22 AC for one minute of the day. Ten rounds. Twenty if you burn your other 1st level spell on it, too. But look! You're not Shocking Grasping anything if you do that. And you're sure as hell not doing 4d6+Str+1 (where the hell does this +1 come from?) and you're doing it as +1 to attack, at best. You're doing 1d6+1d6+1, IF you haven't used all your spell slots on buffing your AC.
@ level 1:
magus with 16 dex +2 human (18) chain shirt shield = 22 ac (one round buffing)
magus with 16 int (14 more likely)attack mod (Weapon Finesse)
+4 base, +1 (arcane pool), +3 shocking grasp = +8wand of shocking grasp off hand touch main hand. no spell combat would deal 1d6 electric damage.
cast as a spell from the magus spell list with spell combat would be 2d6 electric and 1d6 physical +strength + arcane pool(1).
if you dropped weapon finesse and took spell focus evocation and spell specialization + trait bonus - 4d6 on shocking graps.
so i would be able to hit for (assuming WF):
+8 (check)
+3d6( oops i would have to wait until second level for the 4d6 you were right, and at 3rd level i would have 5d6)
and a 22 ac (check)i guess YOU should be quiet because YOU dont know what you're talking about.
now you might have it in your mind that " a level 1 character cant have a chain shirt or blah blah blah, but i assure you that my 1st level character has a chain shirt on him, right now.in PFS i have a wand of shield after my first session...
You can't use a Wand as part of Spell Combat/Spellstrike unless you have the Wand Wielder Arcane, which you don't get until level three, and that's if you skip over Arcana such as Arcane Accuracy, which you'll likely need as a 3/4 BAB class. You also have a whopping 4 points in your Arcane Pool at level (3 if you have 14 Int), meaning you can do that +1 to hit and damage for three to four rounds.
Shocking Grasp, for the record, does 1d6 damage/caster level. You have one caster level, it does 1d6 damage.
1d6+1d6+2 on a +8 to hit (and that's only if they're wearing metal armor or weapon) twice a day is in NO WAY ridiculous. If you play PFS, even more so, because you sure as hell ain't resting after nova'ing away all of your spells and abilities.
After those 3-4 rounds of using your arcane pool and both, you're a d8 HP, 3/4 BAB fighter with fewer feats and light armor, and nothing to show for it other than a handful of skill points.
And this doesn't even BEGIN to scratch the surface that just doing damage is not overpowered. The Magus you are so proud of, if he'd been a Wizard/Sorcerer/Summoner/etc, instead, would be able to do MUCH more devestating combos (color spray, the eidolon is a better fighter than you are when you're out of spells, etc.) at low levels while having a better spell selection. By the time you're high enough not to worry about concentration checks and not having to ration your spells like they were a last meal, those other classes aren't even remotely restricted, and can solve problems better than SHOCKING GRASP TO FACE. And electricity immunity is not really uncommon, either.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Even a 'lower' UMD than the sorcerer is still a good option. a 12 cha Magus would have +5 at first level w/o any focus or traits, for a 25% chance of success. By 6th level that +10 would be 50/50. Even if you aren't relying on it for buffs, it can still be a (literal) lifesaver if you don't have any healers and the sorcerer 'jams' her happy stick. Had this happen with Rey. Sure he's a sorcerer, but that she jammed her wand just meant that I started using hers, and her mine.
If I understand TheSideKick's writing (and English) He's saying he's two weapon fighting with a wand of shocking grasp and a rapier. So that's standard to activate the wand then next round full attacking. But the problem is, if I undersant this, the touch would be a conditional +5 (finesse and metal armor, -2 for TWF) and the rapier would be only +3 (finesse, pool, -2 for TWF) so every other round, doing 2d6. Hardly breaking at first level.
Because they can make a +1 fist, emulate flurry with Spell combat, and make a great monk.
Add Winter Witch and your fist deals +1d4 cold damage with each strike (plus spells like feather fall to emulate Slow fall).
Yes, they help make a better Monk.
You're not getting something that gives you first level spellcasting and full BAB at level 1. That one got killed off early in the process that led to the Magus. You either get a Hexblade clone (which is what you seem to be asking for) or a Magus, both in the same game is too much overlap. The Magus gives you simultaneous spellcasting and melee. Full BAB on top of that is too much even with a more restricted spell set.
And Duskblade was balanced... so you don't have a a leg to stand on there.
Duskblade had a restricted spell list, full bab, and up to 5th level spells.
Another balancing factor for the Magus is that if your DM runs more that 1-2 encounters at a time he runs out of his big hits fairly quickly. If your DM is the 15 minute workday type then yeah I can see balnce issues but when a magus gets whittled down to low arcane points and 0-levle spells he falls behind the fighter and barbarian.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Another balancing factor for the Magus is that if your DM runs more that 1-2 encounters at a time he runs out of his big hits fairly quickly. If your DM is the 15 minute workday type then yeah I can see balnce issues but when a magus gets whittled down to low arcane points and 0-levle spells he falls behind the fighter and barbarian.
This.
Last table I played Dex at, he was dangerous once he got a judgement up and then turned on 'dial a bane' I told the fighter player that I was a sprinter and he was a marathon runner. I can buff and out pace him for short periods, but his feats/training/BAB keeps going all day long.
@daemonprince: I asked Funky Badger, I'm going to have to ask you, too. What has your experience with the skirnir been like? You both use "tactical" to describe playing a skirnir, I'm hoping you can elaborate on the differences (beyond the obvious) in gameplay between vanilla and skirnir.
The biggest differences are you have diminished spellcasting, no spell recall and no spell combat early on, so you are just casting fewer spells overall. Due to that it makes less sense to focus on trying to nova for a big damage spell since you get fewer times to do that than the vanilla magus. I looked at it as a character that can focus on AC with both armor and a shield that can be easily enhanced without having to be casting shield or mage armor regularly.
So I think it makes you more like a traditional fighter looking to do good damage per strike as opposed to one big strike, which is how a lot of others like to build the magus. I took improved shield bash and pretty much just use the shield as my primary weapon and use my few spells to help control combat with things like color spray and grease early on.
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wand of shocking grasp off hand touch main hand. no spell combat would deal 1d6 electric damage.
...
in PFS i have a wand of shield after my first session...
Where are you getting all these wands? Those go for 750, each. For a level 1 that's way above starting money, and 50% for a level 2's wbl. So sure, if you hand out wands like their candy, yeah the Magus may seem broken. Otherwise the damage is a measly 1d6.
Otherthings:
-+8 is good yeah, but like everyone's said its limited in its bonus and conditional. Rangers & Paladins can get around their against their specialties easily.
-Also, if you're a dexer who uses a scimitar(the most common build), you can't get Dex to it till 3rd level at the earliest, so unless you are weilding something else, you aren't getting the +4 without a lower Atk or a lower crit range.
-You AC is only 22. Granted, that's very good at this level. But lets say you have a fighter with your 1500 gp(the cost of those 2 wands you had). They can buy Full plate, and along with a shield(which would come out of their starting money I would imagine) their at 22 AC all day long, not just with a buff that can be dispelled or wear off.
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Where are you getting all these wands? Those go for 750, each. For a level 1 that's way above starting money, and 50% for a level 2's wbl. So sure, if you hand out wands like their candy, yeah the Magus may seem broken. Otherwise the damage is a measly 1d6.
1. In PFS you have an additional resource called prestige points. You get 1-2 PP per scenario. 2 PP can be spent to purchase an item up to 750 gold in value. PP cannot be used to purchase items with a value greater than 750 gold.
2. Another item to note: wealth by level does not always follow the tables in real life. My new character is entering level 2 with a +1 mithral chain shirt, mithral buckler, wand of infernal healing and 4 PP banked.
3. Personally, until level 3 I would use a dagger and deliver my shocking grasp via touch.
4. Not hard to build a fighter with a 22 AC using only starting gold.
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@Darth
He's taking about PFS, where two presitge can get you a 750 gp item. Most Pathfinders buy the 'happy stick' with their first two PP (which if you play First Steps, you get after your first scenario).
Of course I hoard prestige points like I do calories, which is why Dexios 'got better' after his recent encounter with a crit and a great axe.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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2. Another item to note: wealth by level does not always follow the tables in real life. My new character is entering level 2 with a +1 mithral chain shirt, mithral buckler, wand of infernal healing and 4 PP banked.
Playing up is fun, isn't it :-)
Personally I'm planning to run Thornkeep to get Talyn some Noqual armor. All the fun of mithral, with yummy resistance bonuses too! (and it frees up that shoulder slot). Of course Talyn is a non-caster...
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Personally I'm planning to run Thornkeep to get Talyn some Noqual armor. All the fun of mithral, with yummy resistance bonuses too! (and it frees up that shoulder slot). Of course Talyn is a non-caster...
I have a pair of cats--mother and son--named Moya and Talyn. I assume you took the inspiration for your character's name from the same source.
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I have a pair of cats--mother and son--named Moya and Talyn. I assume you took the inspiration for your character's name from the same source.
It's fahrbot that you had the mivonks to blatantly steal names from the single most underrated SF show ever.
It's amazing how many of my incredibly geeky friends resist watching. When I ask why, it's always, "The puppets take me out of it," and I'm like, "Dude, you love the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who.' Are you kidding me?"
BTW, if you're not aware, O'Bannon continued the show in comic book form. Up to eight collections from BOOM! The art isn't fantastic -- a problem shared by the Buffy comic -- but like Buffy, it really feels like the show.
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Playing up is fun, isn't it :-)2. Another item to note: wealth by level does not always follow the tables in real life. My new character is entering level 2 with a +1 mithral chain shirt, mithral buckler, wand of infernal healing and 4 PP banked.
/shrug
It was either play up with a level 1 or play down with my level 6 magus.
After nearly soloing one scenario while playing down, I started a new character and played up. It was much more enjoyable for everybody involved.
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BTW, if you're not aware, O'Bannon continued the show in comic book form. Up to eight collections from BOOM! The art isn't fantastic -- a problem shared by the Buffy comic -- but like Buffy, it really feels like the show.
My wife has a few of the comics. I told her there are eight collections now and she's announced her intention to start tracking the missing ones down. I'll get to read them when she's done.
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Even at low levels. One glitterdust spell that lands well wins the encounter. It does not matter who goes in and puts out some damage numbers to mop it up. The glitterdust won the encounter the moment it was cast. One standard actions. This and things like it is why damage is always sub-par.
You know, people sometime save and your "all powerful" spellcaster suddenly isn't so all powerful.
Without someone doing the damage glitterdust do nothing.
Without someone doing the damage glitterdust do nothing.
This is true, but when the enemy is constantly disabled and unable to fight back, dealing damage can start to feel like...
...well, without someone to pick the cotton, plantations do nothing.
There is no such thing as a masterwork tool for Use Magic Device. The magic item itself is your tool, and does not modify your skill roll, it itself is the DC.They have Use Magic Device so buy yourself some scrolls and wands...
In fact, because they have Use Magic Device, they are one of the top classes when it comes toutility .
A wizard is great but Use Magic Device gives you access to "all" forms of magic.'They have Use Magic Device'? You mean, they get +3 to UMD but don't otherwise use CHA.
A magus is pretty much going to have a lower INT than a Wizard, so maxing UMD has more trade-offs for magus than wizard, and a wizard has less need of physical stats than a magus so is more able to increase CHA if they want to.
Sure, go ahead and invest in UMD and use wands/scrolls with it, but it's not really anything special to Magus.
Anybody playing with Traits will be able to get a Class Skill bonus in whatever skill they want, it's hardly a unique class ability, and nobody is prevented from investing in non-Class Skills anyways.The idea of 'UMD is a Class Skill' negating the need for spell list seems absurd.
Why not remove Heal and Cure spells from Cleric, those spells still exist abstractly, so they can just UMD them.
If people see/want to have certain spells with a class, they want to have those on the spell list, not get +3 to UMD for Class Skill.But alot of people like Magus as-is, and it does what it does as-is pretty well.
12 cha (1) + 1 rank + Dangerously Curious (1) + 3 (Trained) + 2 (Masterwork tool) = 8
Hmmmm + 8 with minimal investment.
Didnt try very hard did you?