looks like fun. It might be a it time consuming, but its kingmaker, so that should help some.
AC 19? You're archer-bait. I have a hard time seeing how this character would live to level 11.
And the demon is a bad idea. Summon an angel for less painful bargains.
Ah, I knew that I was forgetting something :) I forgot the shield! Thank you for pointing it out. Out of budget limitations, Spoony is dropping his Belt of Mighty Constitution, replacing it with a +2 Large Wooden Shield. Bringing his AC to 23.
Not that it will save him from any five of those +20 Attack bonus melee strikes that most critters at CR 10-12 all have. And so thanks to you, I did a little research and found that a couple of extremely effective spells could keep me alive against Archers and Melee alike.
Defensive:
1. Mirror Image (1D4+3 Decoys)
2. Blur (20% miss chance)
3. Displacement (50% miss chance)
Spoony can also be proactive. If I see something with a bow or sling or xbow or gun in its hands and send my cohort et all against him. I can cast Hold Person, Blindness, Hideous Laughter, and I'm sure there are others.
Plus there are 3 other Player Characters on the field who can buff my AC, subdue the ranged attacker, cast heals, etc.
Thank you again for the critique, each one helps me shore up this character :)
Working on those higher level Spoony's too which I will post in a new thread as A Guide to Summoner Bards.
Not to be too challenging, but it is a more selfish attitude to only care about your turn. This is a cooperative game, and we generally make suggestions to one another during combat and during RP so that we can obtain the most memorable results. Our DM is very tactical, and so as you can see are the character's that I build. This is my table's culture; were I to play at your table, I'd assimilate :) I don't find these sorts of weird internet abrasions helpful or relevant. I'm glad that many have a strong reaction to words in a forum, it shows passion. But there are lines, which will shut down a discussion rather than steer it in a useful direction.Heh, besides I don't tell them what to do, I let them know how best to use my critters and they make their own decisions. My group of players have been doing this for a couple of decades now, and we have had our share of summoners, and so this is how we have learned to be most efficient, and we all have fun running around extra critters.
Now.. I'm...
I am not being selfish, by not wanting to roll dice for you, nor am I ignoring what you do on your turn. I have to pay attention, it will affect what I am going to do. It is selfish of you, expecting me to help you play your character.
I also like the way you started with "no homebrew," then later state that the GM and I worked that out, which sounded a lot like homebrew.
I am curious, exactly how long does it take before your menagerie is able to enter combat?
Other than a few parts of the kingmaker campaign play to the nova style. Quite a bit of it is set up so things are happening over weeks instead of all in one day. There are dungeons and other areas that will require more than just being able to nova damage.
There are a few problems with this build that aren't immediately obvious.
you are going to be *very* susceptible to crowding / or crowd control issues. Cut the access point (like a door) to a single 5 foot square and your dpr drops like a rock.
Or.. you're all on a boat rowing across a river... where exactly is the menagerie? How are you transporting it?
There also does get to be a limit to the number of reasonable actions in a round. Telling this swarm and that animal and this pack and this cohort.. isn't reasonable. In a 6 second turn.. I'd probably let you direct..3 groups?
Secondly, firesnake is going to clear out a lot of the rif-raf.
So will thinks like undead(animals will need to be pushed to attack) dragons, (run away!).
I am not being selfish, by not wanting to roll dice for you, nor am I ignoring what you do on your turn. I have to pay attention, it will affect what I am going to do. It is selfish of you, expecting me to help you play your character.
I am curious, exactly how long does it take before your menagerie is able to enter combat?
I was a bit frustrated at the snide tone of the gentleman whom I was responding to, he returned with an apology and joined the discussion for a bit afterward. It was cool. I do regret writing that, and I apologize to the many people that it offended, including you, as the complaint is valid. However, I'm not sure if you followed up on that part of the discussion. At my table, being impatient and upset that someone took 2 minutes longer on his turn than you did on your is considered selfish. If being upset at other players over trivial matters is common and acceptable at your table, I can see why you'd disagree. Though I did also follow up with the other methods, such as rolling everything before my turn begins and presenting it right away. In this method I would take about the same, probably less time than a typical turn because I'm merely moving my pieces to the location I want, and then comparing my prerolled numbers to those of my targets. As to gifting my summons to the other party members, that was not originally my idea, it was invented by a good friend's girlfriend who wanted to contribute more, and she liked playing the "kitties." She did a good job, and the whole idea stuck. Have you ever given it a try? Having more to do when its not your turn is actually fun :P I can only suggest that you try it out.
I also like the way you started with "no homebrew," then later state that the GM and I worked that out, which sounded a lot like homebrew.
Hrm. I can only suggest politely that you do not know what Homebrew is. Honestly, bud, I know that you're lashing out at what you see as a personal insult on the internet, but I'm sure you're able to see the difference between roleplay required by, and that fits within the abstract portion of a game mechanic, versus writing up new rules, or explicitly altering existing ones.
As to your last bit, my original idea was to post my Most Aggressive summoning tactic, where we'd be going up against the end boss of an Adventure Path, or at least one of its 6 threads. The post being my absolute best DPR. In the OP scenario, I would achieve that DPR in 4 rounds. This has all been posted before and in detail within this thread, so I feel like you haven't really followed the discussion. As others posted the flaws in my original concept, I did a series of revamps, which ultimately reduced the number of summons down from 6-12 to 4-6, utilizing a higher CR summon which ironically upped my DPR significantly. Even so, there were a host of changes that I could make, and I could have done a better job at explaining when and why I would choose each summon, including the Glabrezu. And so I'm am working on a comprehensive "Guide to the Summoner Bard" in which those who read it will find level-up milestone builds, tactical theory, and my thoughts on how/why those choices are optimal.
Other than a few parts of the kingmaker campaign play to the nova style. Quite a bit of it is set up so things are happening over weeks instead of all in one day. There are dungeons and other areas that will require more than just being able to nova damage.
I agree :) and thank you for pointing this out. In the guide that I am building, it will include a series of fleshed out encounters and how I would choose to handle those encounters with this build. I think this will reveal my base-line assumptions, and can put everything into perspective. It will also help the reader gauge how this same build will fare at his table.
Please keep in mind that my goal ultimately is to shatter the view that the Bard is a 5th wheel (read Inferior Choice). The guide will be thorough :)
you are going to be *very* susceptible to crowding / or crowd control issues. Cut the access point (like a door) to a single 5 foot square and your dpr drops like a rock.
Or.. you're all on a boat rowing across a river... where exactly is the menagerie? How are you transporting it?
I mentioned this build's other strengths, and they are listed in the OP, but I didn't explicitly point them out :) My apologies. When Spoony is not summoning, or when it is implausible, his SoS save DCs are obscenely high, and so he will be more useful casting Dominate Person, Hold Person, Blindness, etc.
As to your second point, There's myself, Anna and Tellah. Nothing else will exist until I need it to. If I have pulled out the Glabrezu before getting on that boat, he can fly or teleport :P At worst, he can swim.
There also does get to be a limit to the number of reasonable actions in a round. Telling this swarm and that animal and this pack and this cohort.. isn't reasonable. In a 6 second turn.. I'd probably let you direct..3 groups?
Very true, and a good point. The summons will attack my enemies without direction, I believe that they begin with the nearest. Anna is my Cohort, and so it should be safe to assume that we've spent the last several years of adventuring together training in tactics, and we probably know each other well enough to work in sync. She controls her Animal Companion, and so there shouldn't be an issue. The Glabrezu is ultimately controlled by the GM, but he'll *most likely* :P act within the bounds of our agreement. I would not Call him if I thought that the task I ask of him runs against his personal interest. As for the rats, someone pointed out that I didn't figure DR/-- into my OP DPR totals, and after I did the revamps, the rats are only situationally useful. They're great to have roaming the far outskirts as the party travels through an exceptionally dangerous area, or if I need lots of eyes to look for a hidden tunnel, or persons.
Secondly, firesnake is going to clear out a lot of the rif-raf.
So will thinks like undead(animals will need to be pushed to attack) dragons, (run away!).
The only animal on the field is Tellah, and he is an Animal Companion. The rest are summons and will not hesitate to attack a foe--that part is explicitly mentioned in Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spell description. And since dragons at CRs 10-12 do not any DR, they're my favorite targets ;P
Again, thank you everyone for challenging this build, pointing out flaws in my concept, and for taking the time to discuss this with me. Its truly appreciated :)
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What am I doing wrong?
You're tracking DPR in a roleplaying game.
What am I doing wrong?You're tracking DPR in a roleplaying game.
*Buzzer Sound* DPR is the measured output of a specific and significant game mechanic. CRs as printed are based on how Paizo calculates DPR, and without it, the entire mathematical, randomized-result game system does not work. There would be NO GAME :)
My 1st level Character goes up to the CR 20 Ancient Dragon and 'in character' tells him to leave or else he'll be in "real big trouble." How do you resolve this? Mathematically of course, otherwise the outcome is GM fiat. In that case there is no game, only a single person's opinion.
Some outcomes cannot be determined by mathematics, such as a character winning the hand of the woman he loves. This is the realm of Roleplaying.
And so we end up with a Roleplaying. Game. Two concepts, married.
But thank you for the pedantics ;) I chuckled too.
No, what I mean is, you're acting as if there is DPR goal for your level that you're supposed to meet, and that whatever DPR you may or may not be capable off has the quality of either being 'right' or 'wrong'.
The game has a combat element to be resolved via dice rolling and abilities, to be sure. But there is no 'right or wrong'
No, what I mean is, you're acting as if there is DPR goal for your level that you're supposed to meet, and that whatever DPR you may or may not be capable off has the quality of either being 'right' or 'wrong'.
The game has a combat element to be resolved via dice rolling and abilities, to be sure. But there is no 'right or wrong'
I apologize, but I have never said that anything is right or wrong about the Bard's DPR. There is general consensus that the Bard is a 5th wheel--I didn't say this, but it a very common sentiment. I was trying to disprove that by building a high DPR Bard who also has incredibly effective Social abilities, as well as being a powerful controller. And I am playing this character to see how he runs in a real gaming environment. I brought my concept to the forums in order to hammer out the mistakes I had made, and get feed back on how to improve his general theory.
As to the first bit, is this the only thread concerning DPR that you've chastised? Because there are probably 300 more just under this one that could use your specific opinion on the matter.
I appreciate what you're saying. Roleplaying is more important to my group than combat, but when we have combat it is personally meaningful to the players. And to help create a sense of significance, I make my combats very challenging. In order to do this, I need to know how much DPR an enemy can put out so that I don't build one which slaughters the players in 1 hit, nor one whose attacks are merely ticklish. I also consider how these encounters will run tactically, how powerful are their spell effects, etc.
I am being a good GM. I am making sure that the players feel engaged, challenged, rewarded, emotionally tied to outcomes, and most of all I make sure that they have fun in every way possible. This requires acceptance and mastery of all of the rules within the Game System. I am no master, I'm not sure that's strictly possible given how massive this system is, but I am an effective Graduate.
What you're suggesting, and I'm inferring your intentions, is that I buy my friend a Birthday Card, but that I leave it blank because the specifics don't really matter. Or worse, I write "Happy Birthday, You" because he'll 'get it' without my having to be so specific.
But I'm probably being too defensive :)
Sometimes I'm just feeling snarky.
DPR is such an MMO term.
Sometimes I'm just feeling snarky.
DPR is such an MMO term.
:P I think you'll really enjoy contributing to This Thread :) There's lots of room for new perspectives.
If I have pulled out the Glabrezu before getting on that boat, he can fly or teleport :P At worst, he can swim.
Just a quick note: Glabrezus can't fly (nor do they have a swim speed). So teleporting is probably its transport medium of choice.
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fwiw I was one of those people that thought of the Bard as a bit of a 5th wheel - at least as soon as combat started.
This thread (a pre-guide to the summoner bard lol), has opened my eyes to the fact that Bards can be specialized for DPR. I always knew they were versatile but I've never seen one optimized in this manner before... The bards I've been with have been excellent "buffers" and made great "faces".
This is a unique approach to me and I've enjoyed reading about it. Not sure i could play this character (soo much to keep track of I'd feel like I was my own sub-GM). But if everyone at the table is having fun you're doing it right as far as I'm concerned.
If I was the DM you and your entire menagerie would be inside the demon's belly before you can say "G flat". All but the flashy magic cloak that it would proudly wear.