This is for a Kingmaker Campaign, no homebrew allowed. Character has Elite Array Stats, and a WBL of 64,000gp. Only official Pathfinder books, errata checked as best I could. This Bard concept took a while to finish, and after auditing it several times, it seems Imba for both regular and arena play.
Character Strengths: Knowledges, Social, BBEG level SoS/D, Battlefield Control, Single and Mass DPR. He's basically good at everything except being a 15th+ level Wizard, or a tank.
Weaknesses: Health and AC are acceptable, but he's not by any stretch invincible. His combat style is your typical caster's: SoS/D the BBEG, DPR fast and hard on the minions, finish off BBEG.
Note: I will include my thought process, as well as try and source how I am applying the rules if it is not obvious (this is where I may have made real mistakes). I have omitted some Class Features, as they are not relevant to the DPR section of this thread.
Elite Array: Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15
Stats after Modifications: Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14 (+2Enhancement [Belt of Might Con]), Int 14 (+1 level), Wis 14, Cha 24 (+2 Racial, +1 level, +6 Headband of Alluring Charisma)
HP 82 (7D8 +11Favored +22Constitution)
*AC 19 (+6 Armor, +3 Barkskin)
*Low AC isn't that big of a problem considering that he has 3-4 permanent bodyguards. All of his Saves are high as well, so spells and aoe SoD effects aren't that troublesome.
Fort +8 (+3Class, +2Con, +1Luck [Racial], +2Moral [from Good Hope]), Reflex +10 (+7Class, +1Luck, +2Moral), Will +12 (+7Class, +2Wis, +2Moral)
FEATS and Similar:
Racial Feat (Spell Focus, Conjuration): +1 to Save DCs
Feat (Augment Summoning): +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution to Summons
Feat (Superior Summons): +1 Critter/summon, if more than 1 can be summoned
Feat (Skill Focus, Knowledge Arcana): +6 Skill bonus
Feat (Eldritch Heritage, Arcane): Gain 1st level Bloodline power
Feat (Improved Familiar): Mephit, Ooze
*Feat (Leadership, 7+2Base-2Familiar+2Armor+1Kind): Cohort 7th
*(Kingmaker Campaign, we have our own Base of Operations by now, GM approved Leadership Score)
BARD Specific Abilities:
Bardic Performance (Move Action): 31/___ Rounds
Masterpiece (1st level spell, Triple Time): +10 Enhancement bonus to Speed, 1 Ally/lvl, Lasts 1 hour. Already factored into Spoony, Anna, Tellah, Rodchester, and the Glabrezu, not applied to Cheetahs or Dire Bats.
Masterpiece (4th level Spell, Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain): As Planar Ally, with specific
negotiation rules (see book). Begins "Indifferent" toward Spoony. An Opposed Cha check (My D20+*11 vs His D20+5) to determine, pre-combat if he will Assist.
*+11 = +7Charisma, +2Compentence [from Armor], +2Moral [Good Hope, which expires before combat and will be recast]
Bardic Knowledge
*Inspire Courage: All allies w/in 30' gain +3 Moral bonus to save v. Charm/Fear and +3 Competence bonus to Attack and Damage.
*Will be using this with the spell with Virtuoso Performance to reduce BP costs.
Inspire Greatness: One ally within 30' gains 2HD (2D10+Con in health, +2 Attack bonus, and +1 Fort save)
Animal Friend (Vermin, Cats, Primates): +4 Handle Animal, Attitude is at least Indifferent. Can Speak w/these Animals.
*Bardic Performance (Attract Rats): Summon 2D3+1 Rat Swarms w/ Advanced Template, at the cost of 1 BP per round sustained.
*Will be using this with the spell Exquisite Accompaniment to reduce BP costs. Chose this ability because Rat Swarms cause Nausea (May only perform a Move Action for each round Nauseated) to those they damage. Potentially there will be 3 to 7 packs running around harassing my foes.
SPELLS Known:
LEVEL 1 (5+1 Known, Save DC 18)
Summon Nature's Ally I
Charm Person
Saving Finale: Close, Immediate Action, Instantaneous
Hideous Laughter: Close, 1 round/lvl
Expeditious Retreat: Personal, 1 min/lvl
Lock Gaze: Close, 1 round/lvl
LEVEL 2 (5+1 Known, Save DC 19)
Summon Nature's Ally II
Cacophonous Call: Close, 1 round/lvl
Hold Person: Medium, 1 round/lvl
Reckless Infatuation: Close, 1 day/lvl
Ghostbane Dirge: Close, 1 round/lvl
Blindness/Deafness: Medium, Permanent
LEVEL 3 (4+1 Known, Save DC 20)
Summon Nature's Ally III: Casting Time 1 Round
Haste: Close, 1 creature/lvl, 1 round/lvl
Exquisite Accompaniment: Personal, 1 round/lvl
Displacement: Personal, 1 round/lvl
Good Hope: Medium, 1 creature/lvl, 1 min /lvl
LEVEL 4 (2+1 Known, Save DC 21)
Summon Nature's Ally IV
Virtuoso Performance: Personal, 1 round/lvl
Dominate Person: Close, 1 day/lvl
EQUIPMENT
WBL: 64,000g
Headband +6 Cha -36,000g
Chain Shirt +2 Command -24,500g
Belt of Mighty Con +2, -4000g
Remaining GP = 0
*Chain Shirt (Breastplate) of Command +2: This +2 breastplate bestows a commanding aura upon its wearer. The wearer gains a +2 Competence bonus on all Charisma checks, including Charisma-based skill checks. The wearer also gains a +2 Competence bonus to his Leadership score.
*GM approved the armor type switch, however, we aren't familiar with the item creation rules, so this may be against the rules.
15-point Spread: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 7
Stats After Modifications: Str 24 (+2Racial, +2Enhancement [BoGS], +4Size [Wildshape]), Dex 12 (-2Size [Wildshape]), Con 18 (+1Level, +4Size [Wildshape]), Int 8, Wis 14 (+1Level), Cha 7
HP 66 (7D8 +7Favored +28Con)
AC 22 (5Armor (4Hide, 1Bracers of Armor), 2Shield, +1Dex, -1Size, +1Dodge (from Haste), +3Natural[from Barkskin], +1Deflection [from Ring of Protection])
Fort +12, Reflex +5, Will +9
OFFENSIVE:
Pounce, Grab
*2 Bites +18 [+5BaB, +7Strength, -1 Size, +3Competence {from Inspire Courage}, +1Untyped {from Haste}, +2Moral {from Good Hope}, +1Enhancement {from Greater Magic Fang}] (2D6+13 Grab [+7Strength, +3Competence, +2Moral, +1Enhancement), 2 Claws +18 (2D4+13 Grab)
*Assumed Buffed With: Haste (+1 Attack, +1 Untyped Attack bonus, +1 Dodge AC), Inspire Courage (+3 Competence Attack bonus, +3 Competence Damage), Good Hope (+2 Moral Attack, Damage, Save, Stat Checks)
CMB +13 (+17 Grapple), CMD: 24
FEATS and Similar:
Racial Feat (Spell Focus, Conjuration): +1 Spell DC
Feat (Augment Summoning): +4 Strength and Constitution
Feat (Superior Summons): +1 Critter/summon, if > 1 can be.
Feat (Natural Spell): Complete Verbal/Somatic components
DRUID Specific Abilities
Wildshape (As Beastshape II): 2x/day
In Dire Tiger form: Low-light Vision, Scent
Nature Bond (Tellah), Spontaneous Casting, Woodland Stride
Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Nature Sense
SPELLS Known:
LEVEL 1 (4 Memorized, Save DC 13)
Obscuring Mist
Cure Light Wounds
Faerie Fire x2
LEVEL 2 (4 Memorized, Save DC 14)
Barkskin x4
LEVEL 3 (2 Memorized, Save DC 15)
Greater Magic Fang x2
LEVEL 4 (1 Memorized, Save DC 16)
Summon Nature's Ally IV x1
EQUIPMENT
WBL = 6000g
Ring of Protection +1 -2000g
Belt of Giant's Strength +2 -2000g
Bracers of Armor +1 -2000g
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
HP 52 (7D8 +21Con)
AC: 25, Touch: 12, Flat-Footed: 22 (+2 Dex, +1 Dodge, +7 Natural Armor, -1 Size)
Fort 11, Reflex 11, Will 7
OFFENSIVE
Pounce, Grab, Rake (2 Claws 1D6+13 each, Not factored into DPR)
*2 Bite +17 (1D8+13 Grab) 2 Claw +17 (1D8+13 Grab)
*Buffed with Haste, Inspire Courage, Good Hope, Greater Magic Fang
CMB: +12 (+16 Grapple), CMD: 24
FEATS and Similar:
Feat (Armor Proficiency, Light): No Penalty
Feat (Armor Proficiency, Medium): No Penalty
Feat (Eldritch Claws): Natural Attacks as Magic and Silver
Evasion: No damage on Reflex Save
Share Spells: Cast a Personal spell on your Companion
Devotion: +4 Will save vs Enchantments
Low-light Vision, Scent
Intimidate (+8), Perception (+6)
*Stock Glabrezu, not buffed by my spells.
Glabrezu (Called, Demon); Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Stats: Str 31, Dex 11, Con 31, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 20
Base Atk +12; CMB +24; CMD 34 *SPEED: 50 (+10Enhancement [from Triple Time])
Feats: Power Attack, Vital Strike
Skills: Intimidate +22, Perception +26, Sense Motive +18, Stealth +7, Use Magic Device +17
HP 186/___
AC 28, Touch 8, Flat-footed 28 (+20 natural, –2 size)
Fort +18, Ref +4, Will +11
DR 10/good Immune: Electricity, Poison; Resist acid, cold, fire 10; SR 24
Melee: 2 pincers +20 (2d8+10/19–20), 2 claws +20 (1d6+10), Bite +20 (1d8+10); Rend (2 pincers, 2d8+15)
Spell-Like Abilities:
Constant (CL 14): True seeing
At will (CL 14): Chaos Hammer (DC 19), Confusion (DC 19), Dispel Magic, Mirror Image, Reverse Gravity (DC 22), Unholy Blight
1/day (CL 14): Power Word Stun
Chosen as a Class Feature as extra protection in case something comes at me in Melee. Has a nasty breath attack, and Spell-like abilities. He will remain adjacent to Spoony, ready to use his Breath Weapon and spell-like abilities. He has a 25% chance of summoning a Stock Ooze mephit, which he will summon if something comes into melee.
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 14
Darkvision 60', Fast Healing 2 (In Wet or Muddy terrain)
Speed 30, fly 40 (average), Swim 30
Improved Evasion: Half damage on failed Reflex save.
HP 41 (1/2 Spoony's Health)
AC 25, touch 14, ff 22 (+2 Dex +1 dodge/size +11 natural)
DR 5/magic
Effectively 9HD
Fort 3, Reflex 9, Will 7
3 Claws +17 (1D3+6)
Spell-like Abilities:
1x/day, 25% chance to summon 1 Mephit of same type
1x/hour, Acid Arrow: Range Touch, 2D4 Acid for 4 rounds
1x/day, Stinking Cloud (Fort DC 15, poison): Nauseated while in cloud, and for 1D4+1 rounds after leaving.
Breath Attack (15' Cone, Reflex DC 16): 1D4 Acid and Sickened for 3 Rounds. Save for half Damage and Negate Sickened. Cooldown: 4 Rounds
Augmented Cheetah
N Medium animal
Stats assume buffed with: Inspire Courage (+3 Attack/Damage), Haste (+1 additional Attack, +1 Attack bonus, +1 Dodge AC and Reflex save), Good Hope (+2 Attack/Damage, +2 Saves, +2 Skill/Stat Checks), and Augment Summons (+4 Strength/Constitution)
Senses: Low-light Vision, Scent; Perception +5
Defense
HP 25 (3d8+12)
AC 16, Touch 15, Flat-footed 11 (+4 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 natural)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +4
Offense
Speed: 50'; Sprint
Melee: 2 Bites +14 (1D6+10 Trip), 2 Claws +14 (1D3+10)
Statistics
Str 21, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +2; CMB +7; CMD 21 (25 vs. trip)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Skills: Acrobatics +10, Perception +7, Stealth +10 (+14 in tall grass); Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth in tall grass
Special Abilities
Sprint (Ex) Once per hour, a cheetah can move at 10 times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
Augmented Dire Bats
N Large animal
Stats assume buffed with: Haste (+1 additional Attack, +1 Attack bonus, +1 Dodge AC and Reflex save), Good Hope (+2 Attack/Damage, +2 Saves, +2 Skill/Stat Checks), and Augment Summons (+4 Strength/Constitution)
Senses: Blindsense 40'; Perception +12
Defense
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, –1 size, +1 Dodge)
HP 30 (4d8+12)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +5
Offense
Init +2; Speed 20 ft., fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee: 2 Bites +1 (1d8+9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Statistics
Str 21, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 21
Feats Alertness, Stealthy
Skills Fly +9, Perception +12, Stealth +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception when using Blindsense
Things that need to go Each Round:
1. Spoony
2. Rodchester
3. Anna
4. Tellah
5. Glabrezu
6. Rat Swarms
7. Cheetahs or Bats
DPR of Each Critter versus AC 26:
1. Spoony - None (Or all since his minions are his damage mechanic)
2. Rodchester - 15.2 DPR from Melee
3. Anna - 55.97 Melee
4. Tellah - 49.14 Melee
5. Glabrezu - 64.03 Melee (He has powerful SoS/D spells as well, and will launch those before engaging in melee)
6. Rat Swarms - Not Significant, Main function is to cause enemies to become Nauseated.
7. Cheetahs - 24.11 Melee per Cheetah. Will typically have from 6 to 12 on the field. And so 144.66 to 289.32 DPR
9. Dire Bats - 8.5 Melee per Bat. From 6, up to 12 bats = 51.03 to 102 DPR.
GRAND TOTAL: 329 - 473.66 or Less if using Dire Bats.
DPR calculations assume vanilla situations, and do not account for Other Game Mechanics, such as targets being Flanked, Tripped, Paralyzed, Grappled, Stunned, Nauseated, or any other type of non-damage effect which can cause the total DPR to be significantly higher or lower. And so playing out various contingencies isn't entirely useful because there are as many that will be in my favor, as there will be against. Maybe I'm missing something critical though.
Pre-Combat
SPOONY: Cast Good Hope (5/6 3rd lvl spells left) to bump my Cha Check. Call Glabrezu (21/31 Bardic Performance left). Make Infernal Bargain and then opposed Cha check (My D20+11 vs His D20+5). Tripple Time (20/31 BP left).
ANNA: Cast Bark Skin on Spoony, Anna, Tellah, and Rodchester (0/4 2nd lvl spells left). Cast Greater Magic Fang on Anna and Tellah (0/2 3rd lvl spells left).
Round 0
SPOONY: If exactly location of Enemy is unknown, Use Attract Rats (2D3+1)(19/31 BP left), Exquisite Accompaniment (4/6 3rd lvl spells left). Send to scour area, screech when enemy found.
Round 1
SPOONY: Virtuoso Performance (2/3 4th lvl spells left), Inspire Courage (move action, 17/31 BP left)
ANNA: Defend Spoony until he commands otherwise.
TELLAH: Defend Spoony (Ready Action to Pounce tough looking baddy when they're w/in 30')
RODCHESTER: Fly out and Cast Stinking Cloud on Enemy, then return.
Glabrezu: Defend Spoony (Ready Action to cast PW: Stun on toughest baddie)
RAT SWARMS: Keep 1-2 near Spoony (Ready action to Attack enemies w/in 30'), and the rest will harry the enemy, keeping them Nauseated or at least on the move and maybe burn some limited resources.
Round 2
SPOONY: SNA IV 1D3+1 Cheetahs (full round, 1/3 4th lvl spells left)
Round 3
SOONY: SNA IV 1D3+1 Cheetahs (full round, 0/3 4th lvl spells left)
ANNA: SNA IV 1D3+1 Cheetahs (full round, 0/1 4th lvl spells left)
RODCHESTER: Ready action to Acid Dart, or fly over and Breath Attack enemy within 30'
Round 4
SPOONY: Haste (11 allies, Self, Rodchester, Anna, Tellah, then 7 Cheetahs), Move group toward enemy, ~60 feet/10 squares wroth)
EVERYONE ELSE: Stay w/in 30' of Spoony as reasonably as possible, unless there's an aoe blaster. Roam/Swarm over the battlefield ravaging as we go.
Round 5
Are they still alive?
SPOONY: If Significant Enemies are Nauseated: Good Hope (11 allies, Self, Rodchester, Anna, Tellah, then 7 cheetahs), Move group toward more enemies.
If Not, Hold Person or Blindness/Deafness (Save DC 21, 5/6 2nd lvl spells left).
If Enemies pose serious personal direct target threat to Spoony, Displacement (50% miss chance, 3/6 3rd lvl spells left)
Round 6
Still going?
SPOONY: Initial Exquisite Accompaniment has probably dropped. Let it go along with Rats, keep up Inspire Courage (Free Action, 16/31 BP left). SoS/D remaining baddies as we roam the battle field.
If you don't already have the same intense headache from reading this, as I now have after writing this :P I think it would be helpful for myself to discuss what I've done well, what I've done wrong, and maybe run this character through other scenarios, combat or social.
It just seems like he can do anything short of 7-9th level game shattering spells, and do it superbly. And so I wonder, are Bard's really the 5th wheel? Or are they one of the strongest classes? Discussion welcome :)
There are several mistakes I think :
- your leadership score should be 11 (your level) + 7 (charisma modifier) + other modifiers => I think your cohort should be level 9.
- you count 2 +1 from level on Anna's sheet but she is only level 7.
- how do you get to know Summon Nature's ally as a bard ? This spell is only available for druids. So no more cheetahs or dire bats. Anyway at level 11, your opponents usually have DR so these kind of criters are really useless on such opponents.
- Anna's AC is incorrect : hide armor and bracers of armor are the same type of bonus, and I don't think she can use her shield while in wildshape, especially in a form with 2 claws attacks
- Anna's WBL is incorrect : BoGS value is 4000 GP, Bracers of armor +1 cost 1000 GP
-Rodchester attacks are incorrect : mephit only have 2 claws attacks and the damage should be 1D3+1
- Spoony WBL is incorrect : you shouldn't spend more than 1/4 of your WBL in one object, so none of your magic items should cost more than 16000 GP.
i assume he is an animal speaker archetype which adds summon nature's ally to your list when you can cast them. also why he has more than normal amount of spells known for bard. not sure what causes the other inconsistencies in the spells known, should be 6+1 5+1 4+1 3+1 for 11th level bard
There are several mistakes I think :
- your leadership score should be 11 (your level) + 7 (charisma modifier) + other modifiers => I think your cohort should be level 9.
Cohorts can't be higher level than you are.
Cohorts can't be higher level than you are.
The PC is level 11, so where is the problem ?
Cohorts can't be higher level than you are.The PC is level 11, so where is the problem ?
Forget I said anything then. Somehow I thought he was level 7.
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Geeze,
How much of the game do you monopolize with all these NPCs? Every combat must be 15 minutes of you doing your menagerie, and then 5 minutes of all the other players doing their turns. Bards are not designed to be high damage output, they buff other party members. If you want to do maximum damage output, build an archer fighter, paladin, or zen archer monk.
Oh I forgot something : outsiders called using Planar Ally ask for payment for their services. How do you pay your glabrezu ?
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The Glabrezu's desires must align with your goals, or at least run parallel with them.
Glabrezu: These treacherous demons peddle in secrets that destroy, and to bring them to the Material Plane as interested negotiators, the caster must know secrets that can destroy influential families, bring down nations, or otherwise befoul the bedrock of society.
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Leaving aside the "do you really want to be that guy?" aspect, there's three problems in addition to the ones mentioned above.
1) You require several rounds of prep and it's "Nova" damage. Basically you're planning for one ambush a day.
2) Your cohort and familiar are going to be squishy relative to a party of level 11 characters. Normal CR encounters can kill them quickly. And once you start losing cohorts the replacements get weaker and weaker.
3) Glabrezus are not known for their helpfulness and honesty. After it finishes its task for you, it may decide that you look like a tasty treat.
Oh I forgot something : outsiders called using Planar Ally ask for payment for their services. How do you pay your glabrezu ?
Huh, just noticed that Legato specifically says "as Planar Ally" (requires payment) but uses the text of Planar Binding (opposed Charisma check with a bonus if you offer payment).
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Oh yeah:
4) Be cautious in general about building for a specific level. At higher levels your SNA and Planar Ally aren't going to be nearly as effective as they are at level 11 and your familiar will die incredibly easy. A CR 17 or 18 is not going to be troubled much at all by a Glabrezu, laugh at a SNA VI, and not even notice your familiar.
Forget I said anything then. Somehow I thought he was level 7.Cohorts can't be higher level than you are.The PC is level 11, so where is the problem ?
That would be because for some reason the character only has 7 hit dice, instead of 11. Should also probably have 8 (max at 1st level) + 45 (average of 10d8) + 33 (favoured class and Con) = 86 hit points.
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Geeze,
How much of the game do you monopolize with all these NPCs? Every combat must be 15 minutes of you doing your menagerie, and then 5 minutes of all the other players doing their turns. Bards are not designed to be high damage output, they buff other party members. If you want to do maximum damage output, build an archer fighter, paladin, or zen archer monk.
I second this.
This seems like a neat thought experiment, but playing at a table with the character would ruin a game, any game. That is unless the entire point of the session is to try out the craziest PCs you can legally cook up.
Is there some sort of dpr calculator out there that I dont know about?
It's the "This is for a Kingmaker Campaign" that scares me the most. Builds like this can be a fun exercise, but you shouldn't want to actually play something like this.
But I've definitely thought about having my Kingmaker Bard lead a bunch of commoners, soldiers or followers and buffing them into a terrifying fighting force.
So this isn't a parody... Hmm.
Unless i'm reading it wrong you'd have to pay the Glabrezu 6k if you summoned him to serve as a guardian for 11 hours.
i don't know. so much time preparing for combat.
a same level sylvan sorcerer with a decent lion animal companion would be done with combat in like 3 rounds, just when you're starting to fight.
There are several mistakes I think
I appreciate all of the generally positive feedback, insights, and error corrections. I just woke up :) So I'm starting the corrections and doing some much needed 'Vs. Monster Type' analysis.
Geeze,
How much of the game do you monopolize with all these NPCs? Every combat must be 15 minutes of you doing your menagerie, and then 5 minutes of all the other players doing their turns. Bards are not designed to be high damage output, they buff other party members. If you want to do maximum damage output, build an archer fighter, paladin, or zen archer monk.
My DM has a "4-minute +/-" rule. We've played with summoner type pc's in the group, and we came to assist each other. My turn is the most fun, because everyone gets to roll dice for the various critters on the table. We're all mature, and honest, and the DM loves the cooperation. I let everyone know what I generally want done with this clump of critters, and then this clump, and the other players (who have a copy of my critter sheets) start rolling. My turn is done in about 4-5 minutes, but nobody is bored for lack of dice rolling.
As to the other bit, I don't think that any of my characters would be Uncle Toms, keeping themselves down because their 'supposed to.' If there's some official ruling that prevents a Bard from being High DPS, please link it.
You require several rounds of prep and it's "Nova" damage. Basically you're planning for one ambush a day.
These numbers do indeed represent a single-encounter Nova. The party can handle moderate fights without my having to summon, and so we leave it at that. Our DM loves to soup up his encounters though, and the BBEG is always a tailored challenge that pushes us a bit and makes us think.
Oh I forgot something : outsiders called using Planar Ally ask for payment for their services. How do you pay your glabrezu?
As to the bit about the Glabrezu's payment, my DM and I worked that out. I'd offer some sort of service that fell within Spoony's LN disposition. He sees the Outer Planes like he does a jungle. You have several territorial top predators who stalk and slay each other daily, as well as hunt down prey. Spoony never thought to shed a tear for the Jungle, so he wouldn't do so for Outsiders. They may be intelligent, but its their Nature to kill one another, and one little bard aint gonna change that. He would never sacrifice an innocent, but he might be willing to track down the location one of the Glabrezu's enemies, and report back. The rest is fate. Besides, it'd make one hell of a song ;) That, or I expect the Glabrezu to double cross me and be prepared to defend myselves. Either way, I'd pull him out only when overkill was needed.
I should have the revamps done and posted soon (DPR looks like it'll stay about the same, but this concept becomes more effective).
Again, thank you all for the input. I really want this to be a viable, and paradigm shattering build (as far as bards being a 5th wheel).
Yeah, IF you get all this to happen, it can be a nasty fight (although it will bog down combat forever rolling all the creatures' attack rolls).
But you're also auto-assuming success when your tactics require a number of ideal circumstances to work.
- You're assuming you can cast all these summons during or before combat. Casting summoning spells requires a full round, which means you can't do much else while you cast them, and can be disrupted before the round ends if you are injured. Say you get one off--smart enemies notice you are summoning and may well target you to keep you from summoning more. Yeah, you've got your 9th level cohort defending you, but that isn't any kind of guarantee that will help (area of effect spells, for example, are going to hurt you no matter where your cohort is standing). Each summon also lasts 11 rounds (one minute and 6 seconds) so if you cast any beforehand that clock is ticking down.
- Infernal Legato you somehow need to KNOW to summon before combat, it takes one minute to talk to the glabrezu (during which if you are interrupted and haven't yet convinced the glabrezu of anything, the glabrezu might just join in attacking you for kicks and giggles). You also still need to agree to pay the glabrezu somehow -- it's not just the opposed Charisma check. I am also not sure where you are getting a +11 bonus to your opposed Charisma check. Even if you have a +6 headband of alluring charisma (which you shouldn't, you probably shouldn't be able to get one higher than +4 at your level), that only raises your Charisma to 21, so your bonus is +5 -- the same as the glabrezu's. Sure, you MIGHT get a bonus of UP TO +6 but you cannot assume you are getting that bonus--it's only if your offer of payment is that appealing to the demon AND your request aligns with his wishes. Demons are nasty, nasty, living incarnations of corruption and destruction -- if your offer is so appealing that you're getting a +6 to your roll, you're probably agreeing yourself to doing something pretty heinous. This may spell out nasty repurcussions for you and your party may not want to put up with it either. Making a deal with a demon is never as simple as rolling some dice--or if it is, then the GM's not really doing his or her job, in my opinion. The ability itself makes it very clear it is contingent on a number of factors.
- Don't forget there are ways to banish summons or limit their effectiveness, especially as you are getting into levels over 10. At your level, an enemy with banishment, dismissal, forbiddance, or holy word is not going to be unheard of for you to encounter. Not to mention things which target evil outsiders in particular. And especially if you become known as a character who spams summons, intelligent enemies are going to learn to deal with your one trick pony very quickly.
I don't think it's a bad idea to build a class around summoning, but were I building a summoning based bard, the way I'd play it is I'd cast a summon spell once or twice, then switch to buffing my comrades (and summons). And definitely be prepared to switching to other tactics when summoning isn't the best idea. And personally, I'd avoid Infernal Legato with a 10 foot pole -- but my GMs would be all over fully playing out the dire consequences of frequently consorting with evil outsiders and the tricks they like to play.
I'm curious also about how bards summon cheetahs
The inspire courage and good hope attack and damage bonuses are both morale bonuses so they do not stack so that +2 attack and damage bonus from good hope should read +0...
Attack and damage bonuses from Inspire Courage are competence bonuses. The bonus to fear saves is morale. Good Hope and Inspire Courage stack for attack and damage purposes.
That is odd. I stand corrected. Now about those bard summoners... On the other hand how are the cheetahs under the effect of good hope in the first place.. They weren't on the battlefield when good hope was cast?
i assume he is an animal speaker archetype which adds summon nature's ally to your list when you can cast them.
i assume he is an animal speaker archetype which adds summon nature's ally to your list when you can cast them.
Ah there we go.
Ah I see. cheetas dont get good hope until possibly round 5
There's a lot to discuss :) I am interested in hammering out what can work, how, and why it should be included in this build; I am not married to it, and so my responses below are merely for discussion, and are not any sort of rabid refutation :) Please keep that in mind.
Is there some sort of dpr calculator out there that I dont know about?
I use the standard from the DPR Olympics thread.
Infernal Legato you somehow need to KNOW to summon before combat, it takes one minute to talk to the glabrezu
You also still need to agree to pay the glabrezu somehow -- it's not just the opposed Charisma check.
It takes 10 minutes to summon, and 1 round to negotiate. I can call a specific critter so long as I know its name. As part of the history of this character, I will have sat down with the DM before hand to establish a first contact with this specific critter long before needing to Call him into combat. And so I would have a previous relationship and understanding. :P How do you think Spoony got his Incredible Vocals and Guitar skills? :P He's playing with fire, which I think is acceptably within character for a Bard; and as I had posted just before yours hit, I wouldn't call him needlessly. But I would call him.
As for all of the points on Payment, these are good points and so lets look at what the text says and hammer out an acceptable payment.
From Planar Ally
The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature's alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services. The bargaining takes at least 1 round, so any actions by the creature begin in the round after it arrives.
A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.
A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.
From Legato
Unlike with planar ally, the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity, and has an initial attitude of “indifferent” toward you. Because it is intrigued by your performance, it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering. If you succeed at an opposed Charisma check against the creature (with a +0 to +6 bonus on your roll based on the nature of the service and the offered reward), it agrees to perform the service.
Couple things going on here. There's a drawback in that he's Indifferent (no bonus to convince). Then there's the exception to the Planar Ally rules. I can always promise to perform a task (such as scoop up some really dirty secrets from important people), or make a payment to his temple at a later date. Or I can take a risk (out of desperation) and not offer him a payment relying solely on my Charisma Check (+0 to +6, no payment would be +0, and his attitude would likely shift more hostile, so with penalties).
I am also not sure where you are getting a +11 bonus to your opposed Charisma check. Even if you have a +6 headband of alluring charisma (which you shouldn't, you probably shouldn't be able to get one higher than +4 at your level), that only raises your Charisma to 21, so your bonus is +5 -- the same as the glabrezu's. Sure, you MIGHT get a bonus of UP TO +6 but you cannot assume you are getting that bonus
Couple things going on here. Please consider this entry from WBL section:
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
To address an early point, this shows that there is no hard rule of a 25% WBL cap on gear. As to your specific points, Spoony doesn't have a magical weapon, nor much in the way of magical protection. His main piece of gear would be something that pumps his Charisma, and +6 to a stat isn't out of line for level 11. I would refer to the Barbarian's Greater Rage, which grants him +6 Moral bonus to both Strength and Constitution by level 11. He can then equip himself with an additional +4-6 Strength from a BoGS that is within his WBL, but is more likely to settle on +4 because he needs some killer weapons. And so you see that I am basing this purchase via comparison to similar level mechanics.
I do apologize for the detailed character sheets in my original post. In that post I show that I have a bonus to my Charisma Check of (+7Charisma, +2Competence (Breastplate of Command, made in Chain Shirt form), +2Moral (Good Hope)). This comes to a D20+11.
Don't forget there are ways to banish summons or limit their effectiveness, especially as you are getting into levels over 10. At your level, an enemy with banishment, dismissal, forbiddance, or holy word is not going to be unheard of for you to encounter. Not to mention things which target evil outsiders in particular. And especially if you become known as a character who spams summons, intelligent enemies are going to learn to deal with your one trick pony very quickly.
I'm not picking on you :P I just feel like this is a good discussion. As I had said in my OP, its not useful to discuss contingencies, because there are as many that may go in my favor as there are those that wont. But lets discuss these ones anyhow :P Every class should heed your advice. For example, tell the Witch to Stay at home because her Sleep Hex is a common tactic. Tell the Melee Fighter to hang up his sword because the critters will probably be flying. Tell the Ranger to sit this one out because we wont be fighting in his Favored Terrain, nor against his Favored enemies. And so on. No class is at its best 100% of the time.
However, I do not see my summons being banished, etc as a bad thing. I have now identified the caster (the greatest threat on the field), and have tied him up for that round and have burned one of his limited use abilities.
The Glabrezu is most useful for his Dispel Magic ability, and its nice to have PW: Stun (no save) to hold down a real threat. I only summon twice during combat, the rest of the time I am buffing and casting Direct Target SoS/D spells. And so we basically agree on tactic.
As for those revamps :P Getting to them. Thank you all again for the insights and critiques, this WILL be a viable Bard build that most/many tables would find acceptable. Now I'm back to work on getting it there :)
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My turn is the most fun, because everyone gets to roll dice for the various critters on the table...I let everyone know what I generally want done with this clump of critters, and then this clump, and the other players (who have a copy of my critter sheets) start rolling. My turn is done in about 4-5 minutes, but nobody is bored for lack of dice rolling.
Really? Other players have fun playing your critters the way you instruct them? "Oh gee, I get to roll your dice for you? Awesome! I can't wait until my 30-second turn is over to get to your 4 minute turn in which you tell me what to do!" Maybe you've got a far more-forgiving group than I and/or players who just love the rattle of dice and nothing else. Players who monopolize the table are generally not popular party members.
However, I support your effort to make a combat bard and believe there's archetypes out there than can pace other classes in damage (when given a chance to buff up).
My turn is the most fun, because everyone gets to roll dice for the various critters on the table...I let everyone know what I generally want done with this clump of critters, and then this clump, and the other players (who have a copy of my critter sheets) start rolling. My turn is done in about 4-5 minutes, but nobody is bored for lack of dice rolling.Really? Other players have fun playing your critters the way you instruct them? "Oh gee, I get to roll your dice for you? Awesome! I can't wait until my 30-second turn is over to get to your 4 minute turn in which you tell me what to do!" Maybe you've got a far more-forgiving group than I and/or players who just love the rattle of dice and nothing else. Players who monopolize the table are generally not popular party members.
However, I support your effort to make a combat bard and believe there's archetypes out there than can pace other classes in damage (when given a chance to buff up).
Not to be too challenging, but it is a more selfish attitude to only care about your turn. This is a cooperative game, and we generally make suggestions to one another during combat and during RP so that we can obtain the most memorable results. Our DM is very tactical, and so as you can see are the character's that I build. This is my table's culture; were I to play at your table, I'd assimilate :) I don't find these sorts of weird internet abrasions helpful or relevant. I'm glad that many have a strong reaction to words in a forum, it shows passion. But there are lines, which will shut down a discussion rather than steer it in a useful direction.
Heh, besides I don't tell them what to do, I let them know how best to use my critters and they make their own decisions. My group of players have been doing this for a couple of decades now, and we have had our share of summoners, and so this is how we have learned to be most efficient, and we all have fun running around extra critters.
Now.. I'm getting to those Revamps, I swear!
I would like to outline something else about your WBL :
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
So no headband of charisma +6 at level 11 !!
And by the way : you have no defense spell, zéro scroll to deal with special cases.
This character can only survive as long as plan A works. If not, he has no plan B.
headband (anything) +6 is only 36k, well within the 82k that a level 11 should have
I have a feeling that this character is going to be posted on the forums again, this time under, "My PC is slowing our game down to a halt and I need some strategies to beat him at his own game."
And honestly, those are the worst kinds of GM / Player interactions.
REVAMPS!
You will find updates to the OP in this thread, where only Anna and Tella are posted in full due to a significant level correction. Tactics have also been updated, after an analysis of how summonable critters fare against DR 10/--.
HP 86 (11D8 +11Favored +22Con)
*Feat (Leadership) 11lvl+7Cha+2Base-2Familiar+2Armr+1Kind, 21
*This corrected score increases Anna's CL to 9th. It also gives me an NPC follower who is 6th level, 1 who is 5th, 2 who are 4th, 3 who are 3rd, 6 who are 2nd, and 60 who are 1st. They're all going to be Adepts, wielding Wands of Magic Missile. JUST.KIDDING. They'll be Wands of Cure Light Wounds! *Ducks Behind Desk* :P
Clarification: His Spells Known are 6, 5 (-1 Tripple Time), 5, 4, 2 (-1 Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain)
Clarification: Rodchester is under the Haste spell, so he has an extra claw attack.
Assumed Buffed With: Haste (+1 Attack, +1 Untyped Attack bonus, +1 Dodge AC), Inspire Courage (+3 Competence Attack bonus, +3 Competence Damage), Good Hope (+2 Moral Attack, Damage, Save, Stat Checks), Greater Magic Fang (+1 Attack, Damage, and treat Natural Weapons as Magic).
15-point Spread: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Stats After Modifications: Str 24 (+2Racial, +2Enhancement [BoGS], +4Size [Wildshape]), Dex 12 (-2Size [Wildshape]), Con 18 (+1Level, +4Size [Wildshape]), Int 7, Wis 15 (+1Level), Cha 7
HP 89 (9D8 +9Favored +36Con)
AC 23 (9Armor, +1Dex, -1Size, +1Dodge (from Haste), +3Natural (from Barkskin))
Fort +13, Reflex +7, Will +10
*Acrobatics at 8 Ranks, so Full Defensive will add +6 Dodge AC if needed.
OFFENSIVE:
Pounce, Grab, Rake
*2 Bites +19 (+6BaB, +7Strength, -1 Size, +3Competence (from Inspire Courage), +1Untyped (from Haste), +2Moral (from Good Hope), +1Enhancement (from Greater Magic Fang)) (2D6+13 Grab (+7Strength, +3Competence, +2Moral, +1Enhancement), 2 Claws +19 (2D4+13 Grab), Rake 2 Claws +19 (2D4+13)
*Extra Bite from Haste.
CMB +13 (+17 Grapple), CMD: 24
FEATS and Similar:
Racial Feat (Spell Focus, Conjuration): +1 Spell DC
Feat (Augment Summoning): +4 Strength and Constitution
Feat (Superior Summons): +1 Critter/summon, if more than 1 can be summoned.
Feat (Natural Spell): Complete Verbal/Somatic components
Feat (Feral Speech): Speak while in Wildshape
Feat (Heavy Armor Proficiency): No Penalties
DRUID Specific Abilities:
Wildshape (As Beastshape III): 3x/day
In Dire Tiger form: Low-light Vision, Scent
Nature Bond (Tellah), Spontaneous Casting, Woodland Stride
Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Nature Sense, Venom Immunity
SPELLS Known:
LEVEL 1 (5 Memorized, Save DC 13)
Obscuring Mist x1
Cure Light Wounds x2
Faerie Fire x2
LEVEL 2 (5 Memorized, Save DC 14)
Barkskin x4
Cure Light Wounds x1
LEVEL 3 (3 Memorized, Save DC 15)
Greater Magic Fang x2
Resist Energy, Communal x1
LEVEL 4 (2 Memorized, Save DC 16)
Echolocation x1
Bloody Claws x1
LEVEL 5 (1 Memorized, Save DC 17)
Summon Nature's Ally V x1
EQUIPMENT
WBL = 7800g
*Belt of Giant's Strength +2 -4000g
*Its 200g more over the Half of her WBL suggested by Paizo, close enough that one should not sweat over this.
Dragonhide Plate Armor -3300g
Assumed Buffed With: Haste (+1 Attack, +1 Untyped Attack bonus, +1 Dodge AC), Inspire Courage (+3 Competence Attack bonus, +3 Competence Damage), Good Hope (+2 Moral Attack, Damage, Save, Stat Checks), Greater Magic Fang (+1 Attack, Damage, and treat Natural Weapons as Magic).
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 10
HP 71 (8D8 +32Con)
AC: 26, Touch: 13, Flat-Footed: 22 (6Barding, +3Dex, +1Dodge, +7Natural Armor, -1Size)
Fort 11, Reflex 11, Will 7
OFFENSIVE
Pounce, Grab, Rake
*2 Bite +19 (1D8+12 Grab) 2 Claw +19 (1D8+12 Grab)
*Extra Bite from Haste
CMB: +12 (+16 Grapple), CMD: 25
FEATS and Similar:
Feat (Armor Proficiency, Light): No Penalty
Feat (Armor Proficiency, Medium): No Penalty
Feat (Blind-fight): Don't lose Dex and Dodge to AC, Reroll miss chance once per attack due to visual concealment.
Feat (Eldritch Claws): Natural Attacks as Magic and Silver
Evasion: No damage on Reflex Save
Share Spells: Cast a Personal spell on your Companion
Devotion: +4 Will save vs Enchantments
Low-light Vision, Scent
Intimidate (+9), Perception (+7)
Tiger
N Large animal, SNA IV 1, or SNA V 1D3+1
Stats assume buffed with: Inspire Courage (+3 Attack/Damage), Haste (+1 additional Attack, +1 Attack bonus, +1 Dodge AC and Reflex save), Good Hope (+2 Attack/Damage, +2 Saves, +2 Skill/Stat Checks), and Augment Summons (+4 Strength/Constitution)
Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, –1 size, +1 Dodge)
hp 66 (6d8+30)
Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +5
Offense
Init +6; Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +17 (1d8+13 plus grab), 2 bite +17 (2d6+13 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, Rake (2 claws +17, 1d8+13)
Statistics
Str 27, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +13 (+17 grapple); CMD 25 (29 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +10, Perception +8, Stealth +7 (+11 in areas of tall grass), Swim +11; Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth (+8 in tall grass)
Things that need to go Each Round:
1. Spoony
2. Rodchester
3. Anna
4. Tellah
5. Tigers
6. Rat Swarms (If Relevant after they Scout)
7. Glabrezu (If the Encounter warrants pulling out the Big Gun)
DPR Breakdown:
1. Spoony - None (Or all since his minions are his damage mechanic)
2a. Rodchester DPR v AC 26: 15.2
2b. Rodchester DPR v AC 26, DR 10/--: 0
3a. ANNA DPR v AC 26: 55.86, 91.86 w/ Rake
3b. ANNA DPR v AC 26, DR 10/--: 26.46, 42.49 w/ Rake
4a. TELLAH DPR v AC 26: 47.01, 80.01 w/Rake
4b. TELLAH DPR v AC 26, DR 10/--: 17.65, 30.65 w/Rake
5a. TIGER DPR v AC 26: 47.25 per Tiger, 69.3 w/ Rake. 4 to 6 on the battlefield, so 189 to 283.5, 277.2 to 415.8 w/Rake.
5b. TIGER DPR v AC 26, DR 10/--: 18.9 per Tiger, 28.35 w/ Rake. 4 to 6 on field. 75.6 to 113.4, 113.4 to 170.1 w/ Rake.
GRAND TOTAL v AC 26: 307.07 to 401.57, 464.27 to 602.87 w/Rake
GRAND TOTAL v AC 26, DR 10/--: 119.71 to 157.51, 186.54 to 243.24 w/Rake
I am revamping my strategy to deal only with live combat and assuming a Tough, but not "Final" BBEG. I will summon the Glabrezu for his Spell-like Abilities if we're up against, say a Lich, or some insane CR that we're probably over-reaching toward in the Adventure Path. He's my Ultimate Summons, so to speak, and so he is not included in this tactical breakdown.
Pre-Combat (When we know we're in a very dangerous place thanks to my Rat Swarms scouting ahead :P)
SPOONY: Tripple Time on Spoony, Rodchester, Anna, Tellah (30/31 BP left)
ANNA: Cast Bark Skin on Spoony, Anna, Tellah, and Rodchester (1/5 2nd lvl spells left). Cast Greater Magic Fang and Resist Energy Communal on Anna and Tellah (0/3 3rd lvl spells left).
Round 0
SPOONY: If exact location of Enemy is unknown, Use Attract Rats (2D3+1)(29/31 BP left), Exquisite Accompaniment (5/6 3rd lvl spells left). Send to scour area, screech when enemy found.
Round 1
SPOONY: Virtuoso Performance (2/3 4th lvl spells left), Inspire Courage (move action, 27/31 BP left)
ANNA: Cast Ecolocation on Self (1/2 4th lvl spells left)
TELLAH: Defend Spoony (Ready Action to Pounce tough looking baddy when they're w/in 30')
RODCHESTER: Fly out and Cast Stinking Cloud on Enemy, then return.
RAT SWARMS: Keep 1-2 near Spoony (Ready action to Attack enemies w/in 30'), and the rest will harry the enemy, keeping them Nauseated or at least on the move and maybe burn some limited resources.
Round 2
SPOONY: SNA IV 1 Augmented Tiger (full round, 1/3 4th lvl spells left)
ANNA: Cast Bloody Claws on Self (0/2 4th lvl spells left)
Round 3
SOONY: SNA IV 1 Augmented Tiger (full round, 0/3 4th lvl spells left)
ANNA: SNA V 1D3+1 Augmented Tigers (full round, 0/1 5th lvl spells left)
RODCHESTER: Ready action to Acid Dart, or fly over and Breath Attack enemy within 30'
TIGER: Defend.
Round 4
SPOONY: Haste (11 allies, Self, Rodchester, Anna, Tellah, then 6 Tigers), Move group toward enemy, ~60 feet/10 squares worth)
EVERYONE ELSE: Stay w/in 30' of Spoony as reasonably as possible, unless there's an aoe blaster. Roam/Swarm over the battlefield ravaging as we go.
Round 5
Are they still alive?
SPOONY: If Significant Enemies are Nauseated: Good Hope (11 allies, Self, Rodchester, Anna, Tellah, then 6 Tigers), Move group toward more enemies.
If Not, Hold Person or Blindness/Deafness (Save DC 21, 5/6 2nd lvl spells left).
If Enemies pose serious personal direct target threat to Spoony, Displacement (50% miss chance, 3/6 3rd lvl spells left)
Round 6
Still going?
SPOONY: Initial Exquisite Accompaniment has probably dropped. Let it go along with Rats, keep up Inspire Courage (Free Action, 26/31 BP left). SoS/D remaining baddies as we roam the battle field.
This is just a standard approach, its nice to have an idea of how your war machine works. I can make this a 4 Round Strat by dropping the Rats and 1 casting of SNA IV. The DPR will still generally fall into those listed above.
If I were to Call the Glabrezu, he would add 76.97 DPR, or 31.78 v DR 10/--. However, his greater value is in his At Will Dispel Magic, Confusion, Reverse Gravity, True Seeing, His Immunities and Resistance, and his 1/day Power Word: Stun (no save).
And so in this rendition, Spoony's DPR is still Amazing, with ALL guns blazing he comes in at 218.32 to 275.02 against creatures with DR 10/--. If they're just Adult Dragons... then make that 541.24 to 679.84!
We also see the number of things on the field decrease to 4 Main + 4-6 Critters; and possibly a Glabrezu.
A word to the Worried: This is totally within the normal number of controlled bodies for a Summoner of any Class. To complain about it is not a matter of this build, but a matter of your personal taste. At my table, with my good buddies, we can finish my turn in 4 minutes or less, and the great thing is that nobody is going to complain because they're involved and get to do something else fun and engaging while they await their characters next turn. I suggest you try out something similar :P
And once again, Thank You everyone for the concerns, critiques, pointers, and all. I am happy to field discussions on the finer points, such as the Infernal Bargain, and I would greatly appreciate a pointing toward something I have botched or not resolved :)
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We have a GM at our table who is very opposed to summoners because he's experienced the crocodile horde version of this...
I have a feeling that this character is going to be posted on the forums again, this time under, "My PC is slowing our game down to a halt and I need some strategies to beat him at his own game."
And honestly, those are the worst kinds of GM / Player interactions.
I agree with your premise entirely, but I blame the methods and culture set by the GM, not the Overly Complex, Ever Expanding, Crunchy, Dicey Game System. We have had guest players take up so much time just moving their character on the grid. Is that 10 or 15'? So, 5 plus 5 plus 10 from Diagonal, plus 5 going right, and.. wait, was that the first or second diagonal? Creative people develop solutions to these sorts of problems (we move that player's model for him).
I have been a guest at so many tables where the players are all grumps, complaining that the other players are taking too long. They're bored. And their complaining only makes it worse. This is when there are 5 players taking 2 minutes each. They sit there for 10 minutes with NOTHING TO DO. How do you innovate a solution this? You allow them to discuss strategy with each other, and to help with crunching numbers and rolling dice so that your players may always feel engaged. The DM is responsible for how his ship runs; its YOUR session, run it well or suffer from gridlock. My solution works for my group, maximizing everyone's involvement and fun. And you might agree that by level 10, there are so many rules to look up and so many dice to roll its crazy. You have several able bodies at your table, more hands = more efficiency. Are you all Friends, or is this a Board Meeting?
It'd be interesting to see how it would work with a master summoner cohort instead of a druid. MOAR SUMMON SPAM + bard buffs could equal a very powerful horde of little creatures.
Lul, I texted my DM bud with this idea and he crapped his pants. I also read a thread that suggested that Cohorts can take Leadership... We've just invented a new type of Swarm: Followers!
Oh yeah:
4) Be cautious in general about building for a specific level. At higher levels your SNA and Planar Ally aren't going to be nearly as effective as they are at level 11 and your familiar will die incredibly easy. A CR 17 or 18 is not going to be troubled much at all by a Glabrezu, laugh at a SNA VI, and not even notice your familiar.
I agree, this build is good until the critters are tailored to the True Power of Full Casters. Everyone not a T1 or T2 is basically a cheerleader from all that I've read. But, I'll look at my options when I get to that stage in Spoony's Career :) I'm sure I can find him something nice to do for the group (plan their vacations?)
EDIT: When I have time, I will make a 20th level version of Spoony and Company and see where he stand end game :)
I set up a one-shot campaign with a necromantic wizard who also created constructs and had a cohort and minions. In the end she had an entire army of cohorts, minions, undead, constructs and summoned critters.
She TPK'd a party of equal level PCs without breaking a sweat.
I have no doubt that a PC can be created that can do the same thing.
I just don't know WHY.
My turn is the most fun, because everyone gets to roll dice for the various critters on the table...I let everyone know what I generally want done with this clump of critters, and then this clump, and the other players (who have a copy of my critter sheets) start rolling. My turn is done in about 4-5 minutes, but nobody is bored for lack of dice rolling.Really? Other players have fun playing your critters the way you instruct them? "Oh gee, I get to roll your dice for you? Awesome! I can't wait until my 30-second turn is over to get to your 4 minute turn in which you tell me what to do!" Maybe you've got a far more-forgiving group than I and/or players who just love the rattle of dice and nothing else. Players who monopolize the table are generally not popular party members.
However, I support your effort to make a combat bard and believe there's archetypes out there than can pace other classes in damage (when given a chance to buff up).
Not to be too challenging, but it is a more selfish attitude to only care about your turn. This is a cooperative game, and we generally make suggestions to one another during combat and during RP so that we can obtain the most memorable results. Our DM is very tactical, and so as you can see are the character's that I build. This is my table's culture; were I to play at your table, I'd assimilate :) I don't find these sorts of weird internet abrasions helpful or relevant. I'm glad that many have a strong reaction to words in a forum, it shows passion. But there are lines, which will shut down a discussion rather than steer it in a useful direction.
Heh, besides I don't tell them what to do, I let them know how best to use my critters and they make their own decisions. My group of players have been doing this for a couple of decades now, and we have had our share of summoners, and so this is how we have learned to be most efficient, and we all have fun running around extra critters.
Now.. I'm...
I like how we're selfish for not being thrilled that you're turn take forever. No matter how you rationalize it, you're still "that guy".
So is this like a normal thing in groups or is this one of those things that is so far down the rabbit hole but because it has been put on the internet and seen by others it appears to be common?
Leaving aside the "do you really want to be that guy?" aspect, there's three problems in addition to the ones mentioned above.
1) You require several rounds of prep and it's "Nova" damage. Basically you're planning for one ambush a day.
2) Your cohort and familiar are going to be squishy relative to a party of level 11 characters. Normal CR encounters can kill them quickly. And once you start losing cohorts the replacements get weaker and weaker.
3) Glabrezus are not known for their helpfulness and honesty. After it finishes its task for you, it may decide that you look like a tasty treat.Oh I forgot something : outsiders called using Planar Ally ask for payment for their services. How do you pay your glabrezu ?Huh, just noticed that Legato specifically says "as Planar Ally" (requires payment) but uses the text of Planar Binding (opposed Charisma check with a bonus if you offer payment).
From my reading, it's Kingmaker. And from what I hear, Kingmaker is light on combat. I've read lots of stories where people would just blow everything they have on one combat and be ok.
I like how we're selfish for not being thrilled that you're turn take forever. No matter how you rationalize it, you're still "that guy".
I appreciate the need to express doubt about this and every other Summoning Class. Summoning adds more bodies to the fields which adds more dice rolling. On my own, I can wrap up my turn in about 5 minutes. I have several dice sets, and I can roll them all at the same time, compare the results to their analogues, and obtain results with a couple of minutes. When it is one turn away from mine, I can also choose to roll and obtain results for what I plan on doing on my turn, and simply have those results ready for presentation. That would be even faster. Or we can all just Chill, enjoy the company, engage the story and combat as it comes, and not stress each other out by being so damned selfish about whose turn it is :P
I do apologize though for being so challenging on this, I feel that yours and similar posts are locked into a 'way' that the game should be played, as if all party members are shunted into cubicles, unallowed to interact with the game and other players when its not their turn. That sounds horrible, and reminds me of when I first started playing rpgs. This game is malleable, and there is NO rule that says that players can't metagame, except perhaps one imposed by an insecure, unprepared, or overly controlling DM whose personal pleasure comes from defeating the players rather than challenging them.
Heh, but my roomie is looking over my shoulder and just reminded me that most turns take about 3-4 minutes, as players consider options, look up rules (or argue about them), move their figure to the best location possible, roll dice, calculate, compare, and then move on.
These comments are not about this particular build as much as they are about hating the Leadership Feat and Summoners in General. I summon 6 critters max, and have the equivalent of two Animal Companions. If I were a Packlord Druid, I'd have at least 2 Animal Companions and would have around 6 summoned critters on the field. If I were a Summoner, I would have an Eidolon, or even 2, or I would choose to pepper the field with 6 or more summons. There are many other examples.
These complaints are not issues with me, I am not "that guy" as some are insisting out of a need to be aggressive and impolite. These are issues with rules within a game system that you have not taken the time to consider a means to make them less painful. I've offered 3 :) Please consider them.
I just don't know WHY.
Confidence ;)
Also, Different tables, Different Cultures. Were I to game at your table, I would enjoy playing as you play. I hope that you would be as flexible :) If not, cool.
I am not saying don't do it or that you are wrong to design the character the way you are. I am saying there are situations you need to bear in mind if you're going to rely upon this kind of build; if you've either borne them in mind or don't care to, then there's nothing more to be said on the matter either way.
You're working on correcting your mechanical issues and otherwise seem dead set on playing the character as designed, so go for it and have fun. Please let us know how it turns out for you.
I just don't know WHY.Confidence ;)
Also, Different tables, Different Cultures. Were I to game at your table, I would enjoy playing as you play. I hope that you would be as flexible :) If not, cool.
Paul, I play a druid with an AC and who summons. I use some of the same techniques that you describe to be as efficient as possible on my turn.
I also play with a group of mostly middle aged IT professionals who have played the game for decades. We are a very mature group and have virtually no personality clashes or issues.
So I know what you are talking about.
And yet I still would never attempt what you are attempting here. Whether my group would be OK with it or not, I simply could not impose my will on the party to this extent.
If I were a player at the table with you, I probably wouldn't say anything either. But I wouldn't care much for watching you dominate the game play. I'd probably just be too nice to say anything about it.
Whether you want to admit it or not, this is clearly a "look what I can do" build.
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I dont see a problem with it. As a player I'd never play this kind of thing only because I don't enjoy the 'go forth and destroy, my minions' kind of personality, but its a valid playstyle so if its what you like to do... its not game breaking.
If I were in this guys party and the gm were able to keep it interesting I'd love these kind of antics. Keep the gm busy dealing with the atrocity you've created on the battlemap while I quietly go about my own business.
If I were a gm I'd just make sure that any opponent who had any clue about this party or its fighting style would do their best to subvert it. Attacking at night or sending in waves until the animal horde is depleted. Letting a character show off their strengths is ony half the battle as a gm. The other half is showcasing their weaknesses, and there's plenty of ways around this build.
Its a strong setup in an ideal scenario where nothing is stopping you from doing what you want to do, but thats going to be a rare scenario if your gm is worth his salt.
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Kudos on the build - I like it. I look forward to seeing it in all it's glory at level 20!
I suspect that much of the negative feedback you're receiving is due in large part to the manner of your presentation. The title of your thread predisposes the reader to a negative mindset before they even click through.
Re-title this thread as a "Guide to Summoner Bard" or whatever and I guarantee there would be far less criticism about how long your turn at the table takes and more consideration for the merits of the build.
Kudos on the build - I like it. I look forward to seeing it in all it's glory at level 20!
I suspect that much of the negative feedback you're receiving is due in large part to the manner of your presentation. The title of your thread predisposes the reader to a negative mindset before they even click through.
Re-title this thread as a "Guide to Summoner Bard" or whatever and I guarantee there would be far less criticism about how long your turn at the table takes and more consideration for the merits of the build.
Very good point :) I wish I could edit the title at this point. I will heed your advice from here on. Even so, I think the sense of controversy brought some helpful discussion.
Today was my birthday, woot! 34.. oh, nm, 34... :P
I plan on presenting a less time-crunchy version of this character which will hopefully make it an acceptable build among those who've been most critical. If I can please them (is it even possible :P?), I can call it a general success. This in addition to a 20th level version of the OP ;)