Uhm, not to belabor the point, but you missed something. Those spells are NOT always active. I routinely as GM take advantage of that fact. In a surprise round, the Wizards and Sorcerers are hosed, as they also are if they lose initiative to the enemy. After the first round, they can get Mage Armor active, the second Shield (but that only lasts for minutes, so you can't depend on it still being active in the next encounter). Nobody can keep using Shield for every encounter, because even Sorcerers run out eventually..
The first myth I would like to debunk is the idea that wizards (and sorcerers) are squishy. This idea is often thrown out with the idea that casters need a fighter type to protect them or they will get taken out.In terms of actually taking damage, fighters have the hands down advantage in terms of AC, however casters generally rely on spells such as mirror image and displacement. Casters can also keep a decent AC through the lower levels with mage armor, shield, and protection from evil. Later in the game, casters are only truly squishy against opponents with True Seeing, which is fairly uncommon.
Umm Mage armor last a hour per level, only a fool doesn't have that up most of a day. Shield is harder, that lats only an encounter or two.
Uhm, not to belabor the point, but you missed something. Those spells are NOT always active. I routinely as GM take advantage of that fact. In a surprise round, the Wizards and Sorcerers are hosed, as they also are if they lose initiative to the enemy. After the first round, they can get Mage Armor active, the second Shield (but that only lasts for minutes, so you can't depend on it still being active in the next encounter). Nobody can keep using Shield for every encounter, because even Sorcerers run out eventually.
Unless we are talking about very low level spells, Mage armor is always up. Shield is a good spells for a few lvls (up to 7th or so), but after that, Mirror Image is way better.
Plus, they get a nice Will save, but that's the least used saving throw in the game. Better to have Fortitude, but that's one of their crappy saves.
O_o This surprise me a lot. As Will is the save more used in my games, and iron will one of the staple feats.
Again we see that campaigns vary. The relative frequency of will saves is directly proportional to the amount of casters in the campaign. If most or many of the baddies are offensive casters, will save is going to be dominant. If traps, poisons, diseases and fire-breating lizards are more common, reflex and fortitude will be used more.
Again we see that campaigns vary. The relative frequency of will saves is directly proportional to the amount of casters in the campaign. If most or many of the baddies are offensive casters, will save is going to be dominant. If traps, poisons, diseases and fire-breating lizards are more common, reflex and fortitude will be used more.
Fear is a very common effect too, even without casters
Fear, Color Spray, Hold Person, Charm Person and their buddies would like to say hi.
And Confusion. Lots, lots, lots of Confusion.
Fear is... somewhat common, yes. But there are many anti-measures for fear; a few classes are immune to it, remove fear grants a whopping +4 against it (and can remove it if it's there) etc.
There's no difference. The measure of the usefulness of a martial character is their total attack bonus - everything else they can do feeds from that. Its the one single number they have to get higher.
I would say hit points and saves are also relevant, a dead character can't contribute either. Other methods may vary, characters usually need something more (like damage)
But if they hit on a 2+ against most things they meet, the value of investing more in to-hit lessens. Take a mid-level gunslinger in a campaign that focuses mostly on killing dragons, golems, and other huge creatures with crappy touch ACs. It hits on a 2+ even with it's worst iterative against most foes. Then, +1 to hit is far less useful than +2 to damage (or even +1 to damage).Now, if aiming for something that isn't damage, things change a bit, but still, there is diminishing returns on focusing on to hit bonus. Otherwise, power attack would never be used.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think a lot of "myths" in pathfinder comes from people aknowledging that something is often in a certain way, and extrapolating that to a rule of "this is always in a certain way", as well as people assuming that others do this when they don't.
I think the myths largely stems from people ignoring all the shades of gray within the system.
All the fighter special abilities are fueled by BAB: power attack, expertese etc. etc.
Well, some are, but then again - BAB =/= attack bonus.
If you hit on a 2+, getting more _attack bonus_ is a waste. Getting more _base attack bonus_ is useful, because base attack bonus does more things than just an attack bonus - gives more iteratives, improves the effects of power attack et cetera.
When you hit on a 2+, choosing between +1 damage and +1 on attack rolls, picking +1 damage is usually better. And since +1 attack rolls is usually priced the same as +2-+2.5 to damage, it can be a very good choice.
In fact, for many full-BAB characters, the general advice of enhancing weapons with straight plusses rather than special abilities may be generally bad advice - that's another half-myth. But as always, it depends on the campaign and play style and build.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is entirely possible for a full BAB's single attack to hit many enemies on a roll of 2+. It's most likely to happen with a fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Training wielding his chosen weapon, a ranger fighting his favored enemy, a Paladin with Smite Evil up, etc. Inspire Courage, Haste, charging, and other common buffs help too, of course. Obviously, a 2+ hit situation will occur against CR- enemies far more frequently than CR+ enemies, and who do you want to optimize your character to fight, mooks or bosses?There's no difference.
I disagree. It's entirely possible to optimize a character for different kinds of fights, including weak vs. strong enemies.
Many popular feats like Lunge, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, and most combat maneuvers, are good vs. mooks, but rarely against bosses. If you spend your feats on such things (and spread out your attributes to qualify for those feats) you can make a character who wipes out multiple mooks per round, but who is weak against more powerful enemies.
There are other examples of this phenomenon, like casters who have many AOE spells (Burning Hands, Create Pit, Fireball, etc.) and feats to get fancy familiars and special abilities - but who don't have a high level spell to target each saving throw or any feats to cut through spell resistance. At level 10 they can take out a ton of trolls (CR 5) and look good doing it, but the CR 12 daemon makes them cry.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again we see that campaigns vary. The relative frequency of will saves is directly proportional to the amount of casters in the campaign. If most or many of the baddies are offensive casters, will save is going to be dominant. If traps, poisons, diseases and fire-breating lizards are more common, reflex and fortitude will be used more.Fear is a very common effect too, even without casters
Fear, Color Spray, Hold Person, Charm Person and their buddies would like to say hi.And Confusion. Lots, lots, lots of Confusion.
Actually, take a look in the DM section of the core book, as well as the Gamemastery Guide. You will note that overwhelmingly the Fort save is used, heck, if you take a walk through the Bestiaries (I have all 3) you will again note that Fort saves abound in comparison to Will.
That said, failing Will saves tend to be much worse than failing Fortitude saves. Casters are simply rarer than one would think, as most tend to be bosses or mid bosses.
I'd still like to see the math where a character at any given level is hitting on a 2 against level-appropriate enemies.
I'd still like to see the math where a character at any given level is hitting on a 2 against level-appropriate enemies.
Here's one I just whipped up quick.
- Fighter, so he hits every target the same way. (A Barbarian while raging, Ranger vs. favored enemy/spell, or Paladin while smiting will actually hit better then this guy.)
- 20 point buy (PFS standard).
- I picked level 8 because I was pretty sure "hit on a 2" would kick in by that level, and it's easy to keep up once you've attained it.
- Standard defense for a CR 8 enemy is AC 21, and this guy as +21 to hit, so I over did it a bit. I could have skipped Weapon Master and Greater Weapon Focus and still hit on a 2.
Fighter Who Hits on a 2
Human Fighter (Weapon Master) 8
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 76 (8d10+24)
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +5; +2 bonus vs. effects targetting a Falchion held by you
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +2 Falchion +21/+16 (2d4+16/15-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +10) +8/+3 (1d8+8/x3)
Special Attacks reliable strike: falchion (1/day), weapon training +2: falchion
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 27 (29 vs. Disarm, 29 vs. Sunder)
Feats Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Furious Focus, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Cleaving Finish, Improved Critical (Falchion), Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -4 (-8 jump), Climb +6, Craft (weapons) +4, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Handle Animal +2, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Ride +0, Stealth -4, Survival +15, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ heart of the wilderness +4, weapon guard +2: falchion
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +10), +2 Falchion, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Handy haversack (empty), Ring of protection +1, 1695 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Heart of the Wilderness +4 Negative Hp required for death increases by listed amount, +5 on CON checks to stabilize.
Improved Cleaving Finish May use Cleaving Finish any number of times/round
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reliable Strike: Falchion (1/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Weapon Guard +2: Falchion (Ex) +2 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +2: Falchion (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
Myth: Readying an action ends your turn.
Truth: You can take your normal round's worth of actions after readying an action.*
Curiously that is not always the case. For example there is one build from Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium that makes for a pretty good tank.In terms of actually taking damage, fighters have the hands down advantage in terms of AC
Fixed that for you.
Myth: Readying an action ends your turn.
Truth: You can take your normal round's worth of actions after readying an action.
The way I've played it, you can do one rounds worth of stuff, and any one part of that stuff can be readied for later. Is that the way you read ready as well?
No. It's a standard action to ready an action (the action you ready can be a move action, standard action, or swift action).
Only delaying will allow you a full turn, but that generally requires you to give up a whole turn in the first place.
No. It's a standard action to ready an action (the action you ready can be a move action, standard action, or swift action).
Only delaying will allow you a full turn, but that generally requires you to give up a whole turn in the first place.
Ah, right, it makes more sense that way. Thanks.
There was a whole topic where they concluded you cannot ready a charge.
I still think you can be prepared to charge when the door is opened and charge in, looking for something to attack. Lots of times, you would be in the middle of a room, alone. You might spring an ambush or a trap.
If, on the other hand, you open the door and look in, if there are enemies within, no one gets a surprise round. If there is an ambush set, they will wait for you to all enter. The rogue will have a chance to check for traps.
Let's discuss the fighter/caster discrepancy. I used to think it was a myth, but a lot of posters have experienced it first hand. A group of adventurers run into their first group of Goblins. There is one goblin for every adventurer. The Wizard is first level and can probably not survive a melee with a goblin.
If the magic user uses color spray and all goblins who are effected are coup de grassed before the fighter gets a chance to melee, the fighter/player might quit gaming entirely. If, on the other hand, the wizard is a transformationist, and enlarges the fighter, then shoots a tiny bow or tosses a dagger from behind the fighter, the fighter probably kills most of the goblins.
If anybody's reading this and deciding if they should play Pathfinder, yes, do so, but do not expect to pick your favorite class and expect to be "The Best Pony".
The worst Myth is that one class is "The Best Pony". The object of the game is cooperation. Lots of lone wolves have gone into the dungeon and their bodies might still have something valuable on them. You might be able to create a militia in the town so the next wave of humanoids get a fatal surprise. If your paladin is trying to serve as a shining example to others, he or she won't be viewed as an intolerable jerk. Even a cleric of a war god can channel energy when you are up against undead. A rogue can take a level of Bard so they can use bard song rather than make a sneak attack and hope the foe doesn't crit them.
There was a whole topic where they concluded you cannot ready a charge.
I still think you can be prepared to charge when the door is opened and charge in, looking for something to attack. Lots of times, you would be in the middle of a room, alone. You might spring an ambush or a trap.
If, on the other hand, you open the door and look in, if there are enemies within, no one gets a surprise round. If there is an ambush set, they will wait for you to all enter. The rogue will have a chance to check for traps.
Let's discuss the fighter/caster discrepancy. I used to think it was a myth, but a lot of posters have experienced it first hand. A group of adventurers run into their first group of Goblins. There is one goblin for every adventurer. The Wizard is first level and can probably not survive a melee with a goblin.
If the magic user uses color spray and all goblins who are effected are coup de grassed before the fighter gets a chance to melee, the fighter/player might quit gaming entirely. If, on the other hand, the wizard is a transformationist, and enlarges the fighter, then shoots a tiny bow or tosses a dagger from behind the fighter, the fighter probably kills most of the goblins.
If anybody's reading this and deciding if they should play Pathfinder, yes, do so, but do not expect to pick your favorite class and expect to be "The Best Pony".
The worst Myth is that one class is "The Best Pony". The object of the game is cooperation. Lots of lone wolves have gone into the dungeon and their bodies might still have something valuable on them. You might be able to create a militia in the town so the next wave of humanoids get a fatal surprise. If your paladin is trying to serve as a shining example to others, he or she won't be viewed as an intolerable jerk. Even a cleric of a war god can channel energy when you are up against undead. A rogue can take a level of Bard so they can use bard song rather than make a sneak attack and hope the foe doesn't crit them.
Your Wizard is pretty unprepared if they can't survive melee with a goblin at level 1. The issue also isn't about someone intentionally trying to hog all the glory. That's a disruptive player and can be any class. The issue is that Caster can casually make Fighters redundant without doing anything impressive. That Color Spray in your example? That won the fight. Regardless if the Fighter gets to finish them off or the caster does, the fight is already done and anyone who didn't cast the color spray at that point is nothing more than a janitor.
Edit: Oh wow... thats some major necromancy. Disregard this post, if you want to talk about this Goth Guru start a new thread.
Turn unthread.
Myth: The forum dice hate you.
Result: See for yourself!
One thing I'll note here is that the result could be either confirmed/denied depending on your outlook; on the one hand, the roller really is random. On the other hand, if you continually roll horribly despite the fact that the dice roller is indeed random, you could look at that as proof that the roller hates you personally.
I once tracked by d20 rolls through the duration of an online campaign.
The dice rollers hates me.
So do dice in RL.
Edit: Oh wow... thats some major necromancy. Disregard this post, if you want to talk about this Goth Guru start a new thread.
If you would like to discuss myths related to the Caster Martial Disparity, I would recommend using Jiggy's thread as a starting point, rather then starting yet another new thread: Dispelling the Myths: Caster-Martial Disparity
I think this is still a fine place to discuss other myths related to Pathfinder, but I would rather keep the C/M Disparity stuff in Jiggy's excellent thread.
They're talking about Efreets, and wishes, and stuff.
Myth: 3rd Party Products are terrible and will break your game.
Result:Not really.
A small number of options 3pp present are, indeed, broken. There is for examp,ea feat that lets you ignore the need for all item creations feats, and you can get it at level 1. That's bad.
However! Some of my favorite classes are well balanced and amazing. Psionics is just an example of the most common disallowed material. Then we could look at classes like Artisan, Scholar, Spell-less Ramger and its archetype, and quite a few more. 3pp is an amazing resource, even if you use it just as a GM.
Long story short: Don't knock it 'till you try it!
@Fergie:
Myth: wizards (and sorcerers) are squishy
Assumptions: 14 con, FCB=hp
Of the three wizard guides that list stats, all three list Con as 3rd priority. Int first, Dex second. Having a 14 in a 3rd priority stat is unlikely. Of the fighter guides, it varies more, but usually 2nd place.
For FCB, some are suite for a wizard, and fighters might need some skills.
I think wizards would average 1 less hp/level than you calculated.
Here's where squishy comes in: melee.
A wizard at range is not likely to be hit by melee, but a fighter in melee is. That vast difference in AC and BAB tell here. A wizard is more easily hit, and the wizard's enemy survives much longer than the fighter's.
/cevah
@Fergie:
Myth: wizards (and sorcerers) are squishy
Assumptions: 14 con, FCB=hp
Of the three wizard guides that list stats, all three list Con as 3rd priority. Int first, Dex second. Having a 14 in a 3rd priority stat is unlikely. Of the fighter guides, it varies more, but usually 2nd place.
For FCB, some are suite for a wizard, and fighters might need some skills.
I think wizards would average 1 less hp/level than you calculated.
Here's where squishy comes in: melee.
A wizard at range is not likely to be hit by melee, but a fighter in melee is. That vast difference in AC and BAB tell here. A wizard is more easily hit, and the wizard's enemy survives much longer than the fighter's.
/cevah
If you stat out a few characters of each class, you will find that their con and dex scores will be almost identical. There is a lot of variation based on race, halfling wizards and gnome sorcerers are obviously going to have different numbers. Classes that wear heavy armor are generally not going to invest much in dex, unless they have a good way of upping the amount of dex they can apply while wearing armor. Fighter types may have a point or two advantage when the character is created, but wizards have the huge advantage of crafting their con boosting items themselves for half price. The fighter buys it for full price. Again, casters also get temp HP, but martial characters never do. (Unchained barbarians might?)
Two things about wizards in melee:
1)Wizards can go for AC, and do fairly well, but it is different then martials. For example, a halfling wizard with mage armor, shield spell, and something like earth elemental body, can have a very nice AC! However, AC is generally no considered the best way to avoid getting hit. Mirror image (often as a wand,-no AoO, and lots of uses) blur, blink, displacement, etc. Also, invisibility, flight, and battlefield control protect the wizard as well.
2)Fighters are among the best at dealing HP damage with a weapon, but casters have a few options for dealing damage as well. For example, a 5th level wand of shocking grasp is a melee touch attack for 5d6 (no AoO). It costs less for the wizard to make then the fighter pays for a +1 sword. At higher levels, there is all kinds of meta-magic stuff that can make scorching rays, vampiric touches, etc. effective damage dealers, and spells like spectral hand that make it easier.
My point is that wizards (and other casters) can mix it up in melee. They are not "glass cannons" who require the martials to protect them. In some situations, the caster can have more effective defenses then the martials.
I stand by the guides. A fighter will have a higher Con than a wizard. As to racial differences, races that have physical enhancements will likely go martial, while mental enhancement will go caster. Sure, you can go against the usual choices, but that just takes that character out of the comparison. This means a 1-4 point difference in Con scores [0-2 mod difference].
While not all martial types can apply a lot of dex to armor, the Fighter specifically can, as a class feature, and I was comparing the fighter class to the wizard and sorcerer classes, not martial vs. caster. Thus, fighters have good reason for Dex, and are often as dexterous as a wizard.
As to magic items at half price for the wizard, it is unlikely the wizard's fighter companion is paying full price. So that is a non-issue.
As for temp hp, sure, casters get it easier, but how much? Enough for maybe 1 hit before it is gone. Damage wise, the casters do little melee damage, thus leaving the enemy around to fight twice as long (or more) than if faced by a martial. Therefore they eat twice or more attacks, that hit much more often.
Casters are squishy. Not as much as before, but they still cannot take the full heat of battle like the martials can. And when they try, they expend resources just to match what the fighter starts with.
5th level wand of Shocking Grasp = 5 * 1 * 750 = 3,750 gp.
+1 weapon = 10 + 300 + 2000 = 2,310 gp.
Sword is cheaper.
Wizards can mix it up, but they must take care, because they are squishy.
/cevah
I stand by the guides. A fighter will have a higher Con than a wizard. As to racial differences, races that have physical enhancements will likely go martial, while mental enhancement will go caster. Sure, you can go against the usual choices, but that just takes that character out of the comparison. This means a 1-4 point difference in Con scores [0-2 mod difference].
While not all martial types can apply a lot of dex to armor, the Fighter specifically can, as a class feature, and I was comparing the fighter class to the wizard and sorcerer classes, not martial vs. caster. Thus, fighters have good reason for Dex, and are often as dexterous as a wizard.
As to magic items at half price for the wizard, it is unlikely the wizard's fighter companion is paying full price. So that is a non-issue.
As for temp hp, sure, casters get it easier, but how much? Enough for maybe 1 hit before it is gone. Damage wise, the casters do little melee damage, thus leaving the enemy around to fight twice as long (or more) than if faced by a martial. Therefore they eat twice or more attacks, that hit much more often.
Casters are squishy. Not as much as before, but they still cannot take the full heat of battle like the martials can. And when they try, they expend resources just to match what the fighter starts with.
5th level wand of Shocking Grasp = 5 * 1 * 750 = 3,750 gp.
+1 weapon = 10 + 300 + 2000 = 2,310 gp.Sword is cheaper.
Wizards can mix it up, but they must take care, because they are squishy.
/cevah
Why 5th level wand of shocking grasp?
Why 5th level wand of shocking grasp?
Basically, it is the cheapest way I could come up with to deal 5d6 with a touch attack, and not provoke an AoO. If you craft the wand yourself, it only costs, ~1,900 gp.
EDIT: I'm not saying wizards are better then anyone in melee, just that they have the option to play around if they want to.
Another thread got me thinking about the general assumptions that pop up on the boards during discussions.
The first myth I would like to debunk is the idea that wizards (and sorcerers) are squishy. This idea is often thrown out with the idea that casters need a fighter type to protect them or they will get taken out.
To debunk this myth, I would compare a 10th level fighter with a 10th level wizard.
Max die at 1st level + 9x happy side of average + 14 con + favored class
10 + 54 + 20 + 10= 94
6 + 36 + 20 + 10= 72Note barbarians come in at 105, and d8 classes at 83.
Both have about equal access to the toughness feat, however, casters have a variety of options for temp hp. Wizards also have an edge in magical Con boosting, especially if they take craft wondrous item as a bonus feat.
In terms of actually taking damage, fighters have the hands down advantage in terms of AC, however casters generally rely on spells such as mirror image and displacement. Casters can also keep a decent AC through the lower levels with mage armor, shield, and protection from evil. Later in the game, casters are only truly squishy against opponents with True Seeing, which is fairly uncommon.
So select a myth, and either prove or disprove it!
Note: Please keep it to specific myths, not stupid statements such as "FighTerZ sUx!" or totally general statements like, "casters are overpowered". I would also like to keep things focused on what is probable, not bizarre corner cases. If you need a detailed specific build with just the right magic items, you are probably only going to prove that it is really difficult to achieve something.
The AD&D wizard had a d4 hit dic, did not get bonus hit points until con 15 and the bonus hit points were capped at con 16. After level 9 and 10 hit points were no longer rolled and wizards got 1 hp for leveling up while fighters got 3 so a fighter having double the hit points of a wizard was more or less expected.