Just trying to understand why people seem to say that animal companions suck at high levels. Using the most popular animal companion, a big cat, they start out with 13 str, and in the course of leveling up they gain +8 at level 7, an additional +6 spread throughout 18 levels, and there are +4 ability score increases that can also be applied to strength. That makes it a total of anywhere between a final score of 27 to 31 without any magic, which should make them at least the equivalent of a 3/4 BAB melee combatant.
That's not even taking into account the beast that is a Sorcerer's animal companion, with access to Form of the Dragon, or a samsaran druid who gets access to things like Divine Favor, or Litany of Vengeance.
Of course they won't be as well-rounded as a full-fledged PC, but I imagine they can dish out damage along with the best of them. They won't be the highest, but I guess I don't understand why I keep reading that they're no good past like level 12 or so. Anyone care to explain?
EDIT: I'm not familiar with a ranger, so I don't know how well their animal companion performs. On the plus side, they get Favored Enemy bonuses, but on the minus side the ranger has limited access (unless a Beastmaster archetype) to animal companions. Still, they could be a viable tripper at higher levels I imagine.
EDIT 2: Just to reiterate, I'm not saying they can perform as well as a full-fledged PC, but to me they look viable at high levels at what you focus on creating them to do (mostly slashing faces).
Animal companions only get 3/4 level progression.
This affects all aspects of the ac. BAB, hp, saves, feats, skills, everything.
Artanthos wrote: Animal companions only get 3/4 level progression Where do you get that from? Your animal companion levels up as your druid (or ranger) does. Or are you just talking about the HD? Also, I did note that its BAB isn't high, but that this is made up for by its seriously high Str score.
It's all about the HD and saves etc. I think the fact that it's not equivelant to a same lvl fighter is fine, but not all see this.
You list the +4 str bonus ac's get at level 20. Characters get +5.
That 15 BAB. That is full BAB progression with 3/4 HD progression. AC's are 5 HD below their companions at 20 level,
Everything else is also tied to their HD as well.
P.S. Not all AC's are strength based.
Artanthos wrote: You list the +4 str bonus ac's get at level 20. Characters get +5.
That 15 BAB. That is full BAB progression with 3/4 HD progression. AC's are 5 HD below their companions at 20 level,
Everything else is also tied to their HD as well.
Again, I'm not saying that they need to be able to outdo a PC. My understanding is that people on the board think they suck at higher levels, as if to say that they're negligible.
They won't have as high of HP as a fighter or barbarian, but if you want to focus on combat, you can pick an animal companion with a high Con score, and they can end up with a competitive HP compared to a 3/4 BAB class. Given that many 3/4 BAB class fight on the front-line, I don't see HP as crippling. Likewise, their AC can be pumped up pretty high due to their natural armor bonuses.
Quote: P.S. Not all AC's are strength based. Animal companions aren't going to be disabling traps, so I'm presuming that people use them for dealing damage, flanking, or limited battlefield control with things like trips or grapple, and some scouting if you have a small/flying companion. In all these cases, an animal companion won't outdo a single full-fledged PC, but an animal companion isn't a PC.
I'm tempted to say they can out-damage many of those 3/4 BAB characters, but I haven't worked out the numbers.
In any case, say you have a druid in your party. Not only are you getting a full 9-level caster, but you also get an animal companion who doesn't take away XP from you, has to share gold with his druid, and you get the benefit of something nearly as good as a second tier character in one focused area of play, all for FREE!!! So how is it that they suck?
The main problem creatures like animal companions (and eidolons) have at high levels is their low saves due to their slow level progression. It isn't uncommon to see them get one-shot if any spellcaster type enemy so much as looks at them.
Ender730 wrote: I'm tempted to say they can out-damage many of those 3/4 BAB characters, but I haven't worked out the numbers. Go ahead and run the numbers, and you'll see that the 3/4 PC will out damage the animal companion by a lot. The PC has a number of advantages: More feats
, Better feat selection, Fights with a magic weapon, Better equipment, Class features . . .
I'm a huge fan of animal companions, even at higher levels. It's a great way to have a mount, for example. But, the higher level you go, the more trouble the companion is going to have with survivability and attack rolls.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Why would anyone expect one class feature of an acknowledged awesome class to compare, on its own, to a full blown PC?
I guess my take on this is that even a 3/4 BAB PC should out-perform an animal companion or else there's a serious problem with the druid class design.
After all, that druid isn't sitting on their ass letting the AC do all the work, they are casting spells or wildshaping and entering combat themselves.
Frankly if all an AC is "good for" is to operate as a survivable, intelligent mount who can provide flanking opportunities for the party big boys, that's enough right there to make them valuable in a fight. Anything beyond that is gravy.
And as far as that whole "sucky saves" thing is concerned, I'm pretty sure you can give them magic items and then buff them to improve their saves considerably.
When you compare combat ability between a fighter and the animal companion, the fighter gets iterative attacks with his high BAB. The animal companion doesn't get iterative attacks and natural attacks can only be improved so much. As a separate, individual entity, animal companions can't really compare to a single combat focused PC class. And they shouldn't. They're an extension of the Druid class and should be viewed as such. No one would complain that the Cavalier or Paladin's horse wasn't comparable to a fighter of the same level.
Artanthos wrote: You list the +4 str bonus ac's get at level 20. Characters get +5.
That 15 BAB. That is full BAB progression with 3/4 HD progression. AC's are 5 HD below their companions at 20 level,
Just a couple clarifications.
ACs get +6 str and dex, and a another +4 to anything.
At 20 they are only 4 hd behind their master.
They are 3 bab behind a 3/4 class, 8 bab behind full bab class.
They can chose any feat they can legitimately use, provided you put one of their stat boosts into int. (teamwork feats rock)
They do get a second iterative attack (if they only have one natural attack to begin with), so at 20 they are only one attack behind the 3/4 pc. (most of their career they have the same as the 3/4 pc). And if you chose a pet with multiple attacks, it will always have more attacks than the 3/4 pc. And doesn't fall behind the fighter until 16th level, if you don't count rake/pounce for the cat, in which case it has more attacks than the fighter, forever. Raptor always has more.
Fighters will totally destroy pets in damage output, but a well built druid or ranger who actually invests feats/items into their pet will do more overall. (and have a lot of utility)
My biggest gripe is how fragile the offensive pets are at the higher levels. The big one-hit dinos are pretty stout (My Anklylosaur has 35 ac at 9) but the cats and raptors have really bad AC...
I don't think the animal companions suck at any levels. I think that the player needs to figure out what he wants from the companion and make sure that he focuses on that. If you want your companion to be a front line fighter, then you need to be prepared to use your spells and to even gear it up a bit. If you want it to be a scout, then you need to focus on that aspect. The companion should never be as good as any PC class on its own. The companion is just a class feature, not a class unto itself.
Animal companions also have a LOT of trouble overcoming DR, in my experience. Even with a feat like Eldritch Claws, they won't bypass the DR on most high-level monsters, so it gets to the point where having your animal companion is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
Animal companions are a single class feature on a 3/4 BAB full caster. If the animal companion was anywhere near as good as a NPC warrior or NPC aristocrat of the equivalent level they are probably too good.
Animal companion gives you boosted damage which is good for a more martial shapechanging druid or can be used to provide a flank buddy for a fighter or rogue which should dramatically improve overall party effectiveness.
Yeah the animal companion simply isn't going to keep pace with an Eidolon. I'm not sure it was ever supposed to although perhaps the eidolon is too potent?
But honestly the druid animal companion is pretty much always worthwhile.
Animal companions at level -3 ranking I feel less sure of but at least they are better than their 3.5 counterparts which were basically pointless after a period.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
RumpinRufus wrote: Animal companions also have a LOT of trouble overcoming DR, in my experience. Even with a feat like Eldritch Claws, they won't bypass the DR on most high-level monsters, so it gets to the point where having your animal companion is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Considering the classes that the Animal Companion is attached to, it's more like bringing a rocket launcher to a gun fight while having a knife flying around to help you out.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I find a lot of animal companions are underwhelming not because of their stats, but because the players fail to equip them properly.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Ravingdork wrote: I find a lot of animal companions are underwhelming not because of their stats, but because the players fail to equip them properly. ... and/or buff them properly...
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote: Ravingdork wrote: I find a lot of animal companions are underwhelming not because of their stats, but because the players fail to equip them properly. ... and/or buff them properly... True. There are plenty of long duration buffs that can really help them.
Sending an unbuffed, un-equipped animal companion into battle is about as likely to get it killed as sending the fighter into combat naked, unarmed, and unbuffed.
RumpinRufus wrote: Animal companions also have a LOT of trouble overcoming DR, in my experience. Even with a feat like Eldritch Claws, they won't bypass the DR on most high-level monsters, so it gets to the point where having your animal companion is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Depends on the companion. The one's with tons of small attacks, yeah. The ones with one big hit fair a bit better. Strong jaw + vital strike + bane aom, they can get a decent chunk of damage through. (Not warrior level damage or anything, but respectable).
vuron wrote: Animal companions are a single class feature on a 3/4 BAB full caster. If the animal companion was anywhere near as good as a NPC warrior or NPC aristocrat of the equivalent level they are probably too good. Between an npc warrior and an AC, my money is on the AC. (Unless you intentionally pick a terribly weak one.)
RD wrote: Sending an unbuffed, un-equipped animal companion into battle is about as likely to get it killed as sending the fighter into combat naked, unarmed, and unbuffed. Yeah, it's like people expect it to be amazing out of the box with no investment at all. And I never see people actually take teamwork feats, which blows my mind. Outflank and paired opportunist with a big-hitter pet is awesome for a melee ranger with a crit-focused build. And outflank and precise strikes for the druid + cat or raptor is going to tear stuff up...
I completely agree to what Ravingdork and Adamantine Dragon said/wrote.
Depending on what you call high levels my (now retired) druid 12 used to have a big cat AC, which I spent money on to equip it properly and was buffed by the group's other casters and me only to team up with the group's fighter ending many encounters rather quickly.
Also, it can't be stressed enough, that the AC is "but" a class feature of the druid (until that dreadful Animal Archives book is published), the druid will most likely contribute to the fight as well.
Ruyan.
I recently stated out the mount for an mammoth rider. It was a big cat turned huge and I was amazed be the numbers. The pc was "only" level 10, so just mid-game, not high levels but really.
I knothat sometimes something looks better on paper than it is in action, which might be the case here (people pointed out that it might be a problem to get her to pounce in normal enviroments because of difficult terrain).
And while I only spent something like 15% of my WBL on outfitting the cat that seemed enough at first glance.
And some things to buff up ACs are very easily done, even for martials without UMD. For example pheromone arrows. Use one of them to shoot your enemy and everyone with scent (h-orc barbarian? Catfolk rogue? Most ACs)gets +2 to hit and damage.
Vestrial wrote:
Yeah, it's like people expect it to be amazing out of the box with no investment at all. And I never see people actually take teamwork feats, which blows my mind. Outflank and paired opportunist with a big-hitter pet is awesome for a melee ranger with a crit-focused build. And outflank and precise strikes for the druid + cat or raptor is going to tear stuff up...
I never build him but I thought about a druid who himself takes butterfly sting and a (or two) high threat weapons and gives the crits to his AC, which would have been a big hitter type.
Or you could to that with an order of the cockatrice cavalier.
For every crit you hand to your mount you can make an AoO. (and I know it has been proven that a THF cavalier deals more damage than a TWF one).
Vestrial wrote:
They do get a second iterative attack (if they only have one natural attack to begin with), so at 20 they are only one attack behind the 3/4 pc. (most of their career they have the same as the 3/4 pc).
If they take Multi-Attack, they get a second attack.
Umbranus wrote: I never build him but I thought about a druid who himself takes butterfly sting and a (or two) high threat weapons and gives the crits to his AC, which would have been a big hitter type. Somehow I'd never even seen butterfly's sting. That's beautiful.
Twf ranger with dual kukris, bufferfly, outflank, and seize the moment, with a strong-jawed T-rex. Crit... bite, bite, slash, slash (crit), bite, bite, slash, slash... lol
They provide good additional damage.
Example: If a druid can do 50 points of damage per round, and the AC is doing another 25 that means the druid is accounting for 75 points of damage. If you give them magic items to boost their strength they can also be decent grapplers. Even without magic items tigers are not bad against medium sized creatures.
stuart haffenden wrote: If they take Multi-Attack, they get a second attack. There's no option. They get it at 9.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I really like using horses and similar mounts with the Escape Route teamwork feat. It ensures that we never suffer from movement-related AoO's.
I also like to give them enchanted mithral chain shirt barding, enchanted armor spikes, and martial weapon proficiency (armor spikes). Nothing quite so fearsome as a big, high strength animal companion with iterative attacks AND natural attacks.
Umbranus wrote: I never build him but I thought about a druid who himself takes butterfly sting and a (or two) high threat weapons and gives the crits to his AC, which would have been a big hitter type. I've been thinking about a Butterfly Sting build myself, but it never occurred to me that I can use a big-hitter animal companion with it. I should start looking at the list and see if any of them have a x4 crit I guess. Got any recommendations for which animal to pick? I'm also guessing it'll have to be the Beastmaster ranger archetype so I can have the full range of animal companions to choose from.
Anyway, glad to see so many other people saying that animal companions don't suck. I'm in agreement with everyone saying that it's an extension of a class.
EDIT: Hmmm, best I can find are a Quetzalcoatlus and an Iguanodon, both with x3 crit. Nothing with x4 that I could find. Might just have to do...
Go with something like a stegosaurus using vital strike.
Ravingdork wrote: I really like using horses and similar mounts with the Escape Route teamwork feat. It ensures that we never suffer from movement-related AoO's.
I also like to give them enchanted mithral chain shirt barding, enchanted armor spikes, and martial weapon proficiency (armor spikes). Nothing quite so fearsome as a big, high strength animal companion with iterative attacks AND natural attacks.
I ain't ridin' nothin' with no armor spikes.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
sunbeam wrote: I ain't ridin' nothin' with no armor spikes. Don't put them on your saddle and you should be fine.
Good idea / Bad idea
A goblin cavalier with a cocatrice mount.
Sum weasel and ferret hide armor should do the trick aganst petrification.
Ender730 wrote: EDIT: Hmmm, best I can find are a Quetzalcoatlus and an Iguanodon, both with x3 crit. Nothing with x4 that I could find. Might just have to do... Better off going with a T-rex. It gets double strength always, so a crit is x4 strength, which will be more than the Quetz, who only gets 1x strength due to having multiple attacks.
Too bad there's no practical way of getting an ACs int to 13 for expertise. Give a Raptor butterfly... with keen aomf and five attacks per turn, it'll crit often enough. Then you use the big x4 weapon, lol...
Animal companions can be incredibly overpowered around level 7-10. Once you hit level 11, they kind of max out and stop getting noticeable increases in stats. I just leveled up my animal companion from level 10 to 11, and realized that he doesn't get a single thing at that level. And the going is pretty slow after that as well.
Keeping an animal companion viable should be done with amulets of mighty fists and spells.
Druids with animal companions should cast Animal Growth and Bull's Strength.
Clerics with animal companions should cast Righteous Might and Divine Power.
Sorcerers with animal companions should cast Beast Shape III, Form of the Dragon, or any other similar spell that maxes out the companion's stats.
So yeah, the reason why companions suck at higher levels is that the Druid then has the resources to make up for it with buffs for the companion.
Quote: Better off going with a T-rex. It gets double strength always, so a crit is x4 strength, which will be more than the Quetz, who only gets 1x strength due to having multiple attacks. Huh, I thought crit would mean x3 strength, not x4? I guess Pathfinder's doubling rule works differently than 3.5? Iguanodon gets x3 crit, and only has one attack. Will need to calculate which one would come out on top, especially with a bard and mage buffers on the team.
davidernst11 wrote: Animal companions can be incredibly overpowered around level 7-10. Once you hit level 11, they kind of max out and stop getting noticeable increases in stats. I just leveled up my animal companion from level 10 to 11, and realized that he doesn't get a single thing at that level. And the going is pretty slow after that as well.
So yeah, the reason why companions suck at higher levels is that the Druid then has the resources to make up for it with buffs for the companion.
I imagine around level 13 is when they start losing their overpowered edge. With Strong Jaw and Animal Growth, it should still be potent enough. And yeah, equipment will help :)
Ender730 wrote: Huh, I thought crit would mean x3 strength, not x4? I guess Pathfinder's doubling rule works differently than 3.5? Iguanodon gets x3 crit, and only has one attack. Will need to calculate which one would come out on top, especially with a bard and mage buffers on the team. It's the same... you double 'all the normal bonuses.' The t-rex just happens to get 2x strength on his hit, instead of 1.5x. That's his 'normal bonus.'
davidernst11 wrote: Animal companions can be incredibly overpowered around level 7-10. Once you hit level 11, they kind of max out and stop getting noticeable increases in stats. I just leveled up my animal companion from level 10 to 11, and realized that he doesn't get a single thing at that level. And the going is pretty slow after that as well. I don't follow this 'slow going' or what you mean by 'max out.' They have the same rate of increase of stats and feats their entire career.
I think what davidernst means is that it becomes harder for the AC to keep up with level appropriate enemies.
That's true, they do become more dependent on buffs, but then again, the Druid does get a lot of powerful buffs and extra spells per day. And with a good crafting feat, he should be able to provide equipment to his AC and himself.
The most glaring weakness of AC is their low Will save, but that can be minimized with Cloaks of Resistance and feats like Iron Will. If 3.5 material is allowed, then Steadfast Determination is a good call.
I particulary like the Wayfinder+Clear Spindle Ioun Stone combo for any character (including ACs) with slow Will save progression. Hell, I buy it even for Paladins! Just in case! It costs a grand total of 4500! That's very cheap at mid levels!
Vestrial-
Animal companions get their biggest jump in statistics at level 4 or 7, whenever they increase in size and gain their best late level characteristics. You really notice a huge uptic in power around those levels. You get a large concentration of hit points and feats early on, but once you hit level 9, you are then only stuck with your 3/4 level progression of a 3/4 BAB character.
Starting out with 2 HD at level one, gaining evasion at level 3, Devotion at level 6, a size increase at level 7, and multiattack at level 9 adds up to be a lot of bonuses. Around these levels, animal companions really feel like they are keeping up with a comparable full BAB class. However, after level 10, they just fall behind. You can't rely on an animal companion to be the main melee fighter in a party in the double digit levels, whereas that is pretty reasonable in earlier levels. If you use spells and magic items to buff up the companion, they could still be pretty comparable actually.
davidernst11 wrote: ...You can't rely on an animal companion to be the main melee fighter in a party in the double digit levels, whereas that is pretty reasonable in earlier levels. If you use spells and magic items to buff up the companion, they could still be pretty comparable actually. Yeah, I forgot about the big bump at their size increase. That's really poor design imo. It should have been spread out over the levels instead of all at once. They don't get any 'flashy' boosts after 9, but they still get a steady increase in power. Really, they get more built-bonuses than a standard pc.
Not sure why you say they can't be a main fighter in the double digits. They do respectable damage, and even the multiattackers can have pc-like AC, and the big dino's can have mid 30s AC by 10 without even really trying. And they have cool stuff like trip, stun, or grab on every attack. But yeah, this all assumes you don't neglect the pet and they have gear and buffs. Why would you evaluate them without?
Never played a pet class to double digets. So i could not help myself as i read this thread and build a level 20th big cat for my aasimar durid. On paper the numbers do not look so bad.
Big Cat, Level 20th Druid, Aasimar with Celestial Servant feat:
Size Large
Speed 40 ft.
AC +15 natural armor;
Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6)
Ability Scores
Str 27 +1 Ability score increase = 28 +6 beld = 34
Dex 21 +1 Ability score increase = 22
Con 17 +1 Ability score increase = 18
Int 02 +1 Ability score increase = 03
Wis 15
Cha 10
Feats (8)
_________________
Iron Will
Weapon Focus (bite)
Weapon Focus (claws)
Improved Natural Attack (bite)
Toughness
Armor Proficiency (light)
Armor Proficiency (medium)
Power Attack
Equipment
__________________
Beld of Str + 6 (36,000 gc)
Celestial Armor (22,400 gc)
Amulet of Mighty Fists + 5 (100 000 gc)
Attack Bonus:
___________________
12 Base + 12 str + 1 weapon focus + 5 Amulet of Mighty Fists = 30
Celestial Servant (Feat)
___________________________
Restistance: Cold, Acid, and Electricity 15
DR 10/evil
Smite 1/day: +12 Damage
Armor
__________________________
10 Base + 6 Dex + 15 Natural + 7 Celestial Armor = 38
Saves
___________________________
Fort: 10 + 4 = 14
Ref: 10 + 6 = 16
Will: 5 + 2 +2 Iron will = 9
Conclusion:
A druid can have a pet that can act as secound tier melee damage dealer at high level. With the investment of one feat and 1/4 of WBL the cat can penetrate nearly any DR: magic cold iron, silver, adamantin and good. It does good damage >100 (without buffs and without smite) with a pounce attack. Its saves are weak ... but can be pumpt with some more gold.
The Devs really need to stat real barding for mounts and Animal companions. Chain shirt barding should not be akkowed as it is really dorky for a biped its fine but for a quadreped it is just plain silly.
Equip buff and take the right feats Aninmal companons are fine. The AC's master needs t take boon companion to make the the same HD for rangers and other non druids.
The one thing lacking for companions is Magic items hopefuly this will be correected in the upcoming book for Animal Companions.
It really can eat into wealth by level to equip an animal companion with gear.
Heck by that point, taking leadership and hanging magical items on your cohort warrior is about the same thing.
Breiti wrote: dps cat And for the tanky Ankylosaurus:
Speed 30 ft.
AC +23 natural armor;
Attack tail (2d6 + stun)
Ability Scores
Str 32 - 2 increase, +6 belt
Dex 18
Con 20 - 1 increase + 6 belt
Int 3 - 1 increase
Wis 15
Cha 10
Feats (8)
_________________
Toughness
Iron Will
Lightning reflexes
Armor Proficiency (light)
Armor Proficiency (medium)
Power Attack
Weapon focus (tail)
Vital Strike
Equipment
__________________
+4 Mithral chainmail barding (24k)
Belt of Str and con + 6 (90k)
Aomf +3 (36k)
(and few k left to play with)
Attack Bonus:
___________________
12 Base + 11 str + 1 weapon focus + 3 Amulet of Mighty Fists = +27/+22
Celestial Servant (Feat)
___________________________
Restistance: Cold, Acid, and Electricity 15
DR 10/evil
Smite 1/day: +12 Damage
Armor
__________________________
10 Base + 4 Dex + 23 Natural + 10 Armor = 47
Saves
___________________________
Fort: 10 + 5 = 15
Ref: 10 + 4 + 2 lightning = 16
Will: 5 + 2 +2 Iron will = 9
HP
___________________________
4.5*16 + 5 (con)*16 + 16 (toughness) = 168
In PFS, the only legal magic item slot for an animal companion is the neck slot. This is the logic I go by, and in my opinion that slot should always be filled by an amulet of mighty fists.
davidernst11 wrote: In PFS, the only legal magic item slot for an animal companion is the neck slot. This is the logic I go by, and in my opinion that slot should always be filled by an amulet of mighty fists. Yeah, that rule really gimps pets a lot. It was a terrible decision, not to mention inconsistent-- They have magic magic saddles and horseshoes in UE, neither of which an AC horse can use for no apparent reason.
Vestrial wrote: I don't follow this 'slow going' or what you mean by 'max out.' Below I've added up some average monster stats by CR. If you compare animal companion HD to monster HD, they go from equal to a ratio of 16/15. If you look at monster AC to animal attack bonus, the armor class goes of faster as well. There are other comparisons that could be done, but these were easy to put together and make the point nicely.
PC _____ Animal _ Animal __ Monster _ Monster __ Monster
Druid ____ HD ____ BAB ____ CR ______ AC ______ HD
1 _______ 2 _____ 1 ______ 1 _______ 12 ______ 2
5 _______ 5 _____ 3 ______ 5 _______ 18 ______ 6
10 ______ 9 _____ 6 ______ 10 ______ 24 ______ 13
15 _____ 12 _____ 9 ______ 15 ______ 30 ______ 18
20 _____ 16 _____ 12 _____ 20 ______ 36 ______ 25
Blueluck wrote: Vestrial wrote: I don't follow this 'slow going' or what you mean by 'max out.' Below I've added up some average monster stats by CR. If you compare animal companion HD to monster HD, they go from equal to a ratio of 16/15. If you look at monster AC to animal attack bonus, the armor class goes of faster as well. There are other comparisons that could be done, but these were easy to put together and make the point nicely. Now let's include the ACs stat increases...
PC _____ Animal _ Animal __ cat _____Monster __ Monster _ Monster __ cat
Druid ____ HD ____ BAB ____ atk mod___ CR ______ AC _____ HD _______ hit%
1 _______ 2 _____ 1 ______ 2 _______ 1 _______ 12 ______ 2 ________ 55
5 _______ 5 _____ 3 ______ 5 _______ 5 _______ 18 ______ 6 ________ 40
10 ______ 9 _____ 6 ______ 12 ______ 10 ______ 24 ______ 13 _______ 45
15 _____ 12 _____ 9 ______ 16 ______ 15 ______ 30 ______ 18 _______ 35
20 _____ 16 _____ 12 _____ 22 ______ 20 ______ 36 ______ 25 _______ 35
So other than that bump in the middle due to the size increase, it's pretty constant the whole way. I think that refutes the point rather nicely.
To be fair, with a single spell, a tiger's STR can be bumped up by +8, translating to a +4 attack bonus. On top of that, it's not as if the animal companion won't have an amulet to boost its claws. The STR of a properly equipped tiger should be really high, so while it's lacking in BAB, it should make up for it with its higher strength.
Tough choice between the ankylosaurus and tiger. I think tiger between levels 7-12, and then ankylosaurus 13+ because of the higher AC. Though the ankylosaurus is viable at all levels I suppose. Love those two beasts though!
|
