People only build monks with less than 11 Int or Cha because they're greedy powergamers.
Optimization tends to get taken to an extreme on some boards (although honestly most optimization here seems to be relatively sedate in comparison to late 3.5 optimization on the WotC boards).
Optimization for a role really isn't that bad of a thing and having weaknesses really isn't that big of a deal.
Personally I dislike 20,16,12,7,7,7 builds but there are some reasons why they get promoted. The truth of the matter is not all the ability scores are made equal and if you aren't a spontaneous caster there are really not that many reasons not to dump charisma as it doesn't take that many ranks to negate that penalty for cha-linked skills.
It's perfectly acceptable to have a low charisma diplomat who has used a bunch of diplomacy ranks to negate the impact of his low charisma. Sure he's not as gifted as the charismatic character with lots of natural talent but he's used hard work (skill ranks) to negate his inherent disadvantage.
I don't think that's a bad thing and I think it's a strength of the skill system that you can have characters that play against type and that ability scores aren't a massive brake on character ability after 4th level or so.
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Why would having a 7 or 8 in a stat broken the game?
An 8 charisma is just a -1 to social skills. As long as the PC in question takes one social skill as a class skill (bluff, diplomacy or intimidate) they can generally keep pace with standard DCs.
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Well a 7 or 8 in a mental stat should be RPed, but it's not really a debilitating disability.
A 7 int or wis does not mean "can't tie his own shoes" or "drools all the time". It just means his natural talents lie elsewhere, but he can still do soemthing about it.
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Low scores do not always equal powergamer.
I built a crazed, common-sense lacking bard, with a 7 wisdom to reflect that.
This nearly automatic assumption that a PC with any low score, is some sort of extreme Min/Maxer is preposterous.
Disallowing anyone to play a PC with a low score is simply restricting the concepts available.
Also, to look down through one's nose, to state that another person's style of play is "inferior", is horrifically conceited.
The core point of the game is to have fun, and if a player is having fun, then they are doing it right. Regardless of how you may prefer to play.
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Assuming that a 3d6 accurately represents the distribution of scores in a population, a 7 Int roughly corresponds to an IQ of 80. That doesn't make you the drooling idiot who is clinically retarded and needs special care just to get through the average day that most people seem to think a 7 represents.
In general, a 7 is only a bit over one standard deviation below the average - noticeably weak, but not cripplingly so.
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Unless you're a Duergar who dumped Charisma. Then you're lucky if people will get within ten feet of you without screaming EVIL DORF KILL IT.
My Duergar Heretic Inquisitor, with the Heresy Inquisition, has very little trouble convincing people to agree with her, even with her 3 Charisma.
Like a pet rock who whispers sweet nothings into your ear.Nobody quite notices her, but everyone agrees with her.
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*grabs popcorn* These threads always provide some good sideshow entertainment.
I can see both sides of the argument. While there is nothing wrong with dumping stats if it fits the character going too far and relying on skill ranks to overcome it is absurd. Also having multiple mental dump stats are another thing. If you want to play a character like Sheldon on the big bang theory having a low CHA makes since. Even playing a character like Forest Jump with a bellow average INT is fine. In most cases you should have only one really low stat. Neither of those characters have multiple dump stats. Even Sheldon has enough sense to get out of the rain when it is pouring.
The big stupid fighter and the weak frail wizard are classic characters. The original poster made a comment about someone with a 7 CHA not being able to get magic items at list price and I can see some validity in this, but he is forgetting the character is part of a team. As long as the player is willing to role play the dump stat that is fine. The grouchy wizard can have the bard do the haggling for him.
What I think is wrong is when people ignore the dump stats. If your character concept is that you are a bright witty fellow who can charm the pants of anyone don't dump CHA and just put skill ranks into diplomacy. That is Eddy Haskel from leave it to beaver and that type of character will eventually be seen through.
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*blink blink*
Wow. I think he managed to cram most of the common anti-optimization cliches, gripes, complaints, and whines into a single post.
Let me see...
"your characters aren't viable at our table"
"At my table this will backfire on you"
"This never happens in my games"
"one trick pony"
"only good for nova"
"taken r out of rpg"
"video game"
I miss any?
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sorry for bad english
In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
So, what you're saying is, instead of just using any number of valid rules for character stat generation, you metagame incessantly to passive-aggressively attack the weakness of characters whose builds you don't approve of? And you're proud of this?
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The game does not "force you to dump stats to excel at your chosen field" at all.
The game allows you to play a wide range of character concepts. The idea that the only way to "excel" in one area is to suck in another area is a pure myth foisted by those who believe that "excel" can only mean "do the absolute best out of all possible options."
That's not what "excel" means. But it does seem to be what many power gamers THINK it means.
whatever happened to diff'rent strokes diff'rent folks.
So if in your games someone with a CHA of 7 can't buy a magic item at the listed price then by the same logic someone with a CHA Of 20+ buys magic at at least half price if not one third of the listed price, correct? So it balances out in the end because the character with moderate to high charisma will buy the magic items for the whole group.
Now to answer your question, yes you as really playing a different game than most of us, if your group has placed heavy house rules about something SO important in the game (magic items prices) then you must have other house rules in place for the hicupps the previous house rule caused . Also you seem to have house ruled other abilities as well, does it make you wonder that we play different games?
Sorry for any typos, I am at my phone now.
whatever happened to diff'rent strokes diff'rent folks.
We need a "co-exist" bumper sticker for RPG gamers...
By the way, I always love the "if you're having fun, you're doing it right!" assertions people somehow manage to enter into their keyboards from the saddles of their own high horses.
"Yeah, I really only have fun if the in game injuries are inflicted on the actual players themselves. That's the way to really make people take their characters seriously. And it's fun! So it must be right!"
Ohh look another one of these threads. And no surprise the fighter is the punching bag once again. Lets face it front line PC's get the shaft. Where the casters only need one good stat to function front liners need a solid str and con at least. often times dex as well. Lets not even talk about a poor monk.
I am sure you have no problem with the wizard that can have 10 or over in all stats and still be optimized. But if a melee wants to be effective lets cry about him.
So, what you're saying is, instead of just using any number of valid rules for character stat generation, you metagame incessantly to passive-aggressively attack the weakness of characters whose builds you don't approve of? And you're proud of this?sorry for bad english
In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
NO, means he uses those stats. We do this frequently too. A lot of shop keepers are greedy. I treat them most often like pawn shops. to get good prices you got to play the game, look at something, come back, buy a trinket or two, come back, show that you are a return customer, blah blah.
This can all be abbreviated by a good charisma, and some decent points in bluff or knowledge local (hey there are five of those in town, ill just buy one from over there) .
However there are multiple people in a party, just tell the bard what you want and have him buy it. (which is usually what WE do)
I also find the builds that dump stats to get 20s in other stats at level one broken.
Here'w why, we don't game in such a way to need it, and by level 8 these characters have a natural 22 in that stat and are blowing stuff away, which means you then have to bump up everything to meet the challenge when other people don't make their characters that way.
So it effectively 'breaks the game'; at our table.
This 'over statting' has ended more than one campaign just because of over cheese.
It always makes me wonder, because the player with the 20 strength at level 1 can never create a backstory or a reason why his character is hercules. I mean at least gimme something to run with here.....
Here's another thing, what about stat synergy. This guy with his 20 strength and 7 cha. I mean a grumpy A-hole with tree trunk arms, but he gets a negative modifier to intimidate? really? I usually house rule in something to compensate... but some rules for it would be interesting.
For the reasons stated above, we usually don't chase uber stats at the start of game, because it breaks OUR game.
However, if you NEED a 26 in your main stat at high level, there really isn't another way to do it. Depends on the games you are used to playing in I guess.
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Sure, you can tone down 'excel' to mean 'better than an average schmuck on the street.' But that's not what most people mean by the term. By excel, I mean be one of the best at-- as literary heroes are. Heros are not slightly better than the average farmer. They excel. And that's the whole point of heroic fantasy, to be a hero (There are other ways to play, naturally, but the game is pitched as heroic fantasy). But if my fighter is slightly above average intelligence, charming, and has a modicum of common sense, he is automatically worse at combat than that dumb, ugly, reckless brute. There's not a large ability range at the low end. Going from a 18 to 14 str is a substantial difference, and definitely not what people mean by ' to excel.'The game does not "force you to dump stats to excel at your chosen field" at all.
The game allows you to play a wide range of character concepts. The idea that the only way to "excel" in one area is to suck in another area is a pure myth foisted by those who believe that "excel" can only mean "do the absolute best out of all possible options."
That's not what "excel" means. But it does seem to be what many power gamers THINK it means.
Vestrial, a Pathfinder fighter with a 16 strength is, by definition in game terms, "one of the best at -- as literary heroes are" in comparison to the standard "schmucks" in the game.
You are comparing your character to other characters possible in the rules system, or other characters other players are playing in other games, not your character to the vast virtual gaming world where your character actually interacts. In that world your 16 str fighter with a 12 int is not only above average intelligence, but is much stronger than the average man in the street. Plus he will get stronger as time goes on and he boosts his stats and gains magic items to make him stronger.
The idea that a character has to start at level 1 with "at least" a racially adjusted 20 in a prime attribute or else "he sucks" is pure metagaming sophistry introduced by number crunching power gamers. The game is designed specifically so that a 16 str level 1 fighter IS the heroic literary powerhouse of fiction. It's just not enough for some people because Joe across the street has a 20 str fighter and does +2 damage over their own sad sack fighter.
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Having a fairly stupid -- or socially incompetent -- character just isn't fun when you have entire gaming sessions devoted to detective work or diplomacy or the maneuverings of noble houses.
That's what I meant when I said it would break my current game. I suppose I should have said that it would break the story and the rhythm of this particular campaign.
As I say, in most cases, I agree that it's not that big a deal.
-Marsh
So, "your PC, is unlike my PC, and that makes my PC less fun to play"?
There is also a history of stupid and socially incompetent persons of Noble birth, so not so out of the ordinary.
Also, classes like the Inquisitor, allow for some very persuasive PCs, even with a 7 or less Charisma.
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Having a fairly stupid -- or socially incompetent -- character just isn't fun when you have entire gaming sessions devoted to detective work or diplomacy or the maneuverings of noble houses.
That's what I meant when I said it would break my current game. I suppose I should have said that it would break the story and the rhythm of this particular campaign.
As I say, in most cases, I agree that it's not that big a deal.
-Marsh
Actually that can be A LOT of fun. Years ago, during 1e. we had a character with an crazy high strength (one of those odd moments when everyone sees the guy roll the 18/98) but mosr of his other stats were 9s,11s,and 5-6's.
I recall he called is character 'pony' as in one trick pony.
Pony never waited for thief to pick the lock, he shouted "I make my own door" and busted a whole through the side of a building.
This usually created all sorts of chaos for the other people in the group to react to.
During a session where we were disguised in a city mostly populated by bad folk. Pony was pretending to be an orc. His 'idea' of an orc was wandering town, offering to pay gold for halflings, his favorite meal. He blew tons of the party gold buying nearly every halfling he saw before we had realized what he was doing (we were busy with other stuff)
Hey pony why do you have 10 halflings on a rope? "ME HUNGRY!"
Tons of fun.
No one said you had to be GOOD at clandestine work in order to have fun doing it.
Its hilarious the things people will call metagaming. By that lose of a definition then limiting stats in any way is as well. Or picking a feat that's considered good. Or picking a breastplate over the poor medium armors.
Also the game designed specifically so a 20 in a stat is fully possible? and with in the expected range. So? Because it offends what you feel the game should be? Well guess what what you think the game should be only matters at one table.
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But when i read the optimization forum, it_s like I dont play the same game as the rest of many player.
I will only comment on the builds I post.
The optimized characters I post are strictly theorycrafting. The builds I actually play tend towards being versatile, not optimized. I make deliberate choices on my real characters that limit their damage output. I also avoid stat dumping and tend to invest in charisma and skills.
That being said, even with characters that are less than fully optimized I still need to tone down my characters unless the other players are all higher level.
This is actually one reason I still prefer rolling my stats either in front of the GM or else using a secure website for rolling stats. My druid's rolled stats were pretty pedestrian, averaging out to a point buy equivalent of 16 as I recall. My witch's rolled stats were off the scale, equating to about a 32 point buy as I recall.
So yeah, my witch ended up with a 20 int. Which is pretty cool. But my druid started with a 16 wisdom.
In terms of game play, I think both of them are a blast to play. The druid may not have the stellar stats of the witch, but she holds her own with the rest of the party just fine. In fact I think she's the party's most powerful character, even though there are plenty of other party members who started with a 20 in their prime stat.
Sometimes how you play them is at least as important as what their stats are...
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What exactly is the advice you were seeking?
All I see is a bit strutting around, noting how superior your gaming group's style of play is.
Not every player running a PC with a 20 or 7 in a score is some cheeto fingered neckbeard powergamer, with as much roleplay skill as a doorknob.
You can't just make such sweeping assumptions of all that play different than you.
I cannot even tell if this thread was started for real advice, or just trolling the boards with flame-bait.
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On some table, it's seem the r from rpg was taken out. when all the thing i want is killing and looting, I play a video game.
And at your table it seems like the "g" has been taken from RPG.
If all I wanted to do was sit around and talk with random commoners, I'd go to Starbucks or something.
Pony never waited for thief to pick the lock, he shouted "I make my own door" and busted a hole through the side of a building.
This usually created all sorts of chaos for the other people in the group to react to.
BRB making a Pony
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Actually that can be A LOT of fun. Years ago, during 1e. we had a character with an crazy high strength (one of those odd moments when everyone sees the guy roll the 18/98) but mosr of his other stats were 9s,11s,and 5-6's.
I recall he called is character 'pony' as in one trick pony.
Pony never waited for thief to pick the lock, he shouted "I make my own door" and busted a whole through the side of a building.
This usually created all sorts of chaos for the other people in the group to react to.During a session where we were disguised in a city mostly populated by bad folk. Pony was pretending to be an orc. His 'idea' of an orc was wandering town, offering to pay gold for halflings, his favorite meal. He blew tons of the party gold buying nearly every halfling he saw before we had realized what he was doing (we were busy with other stuff)
Hey pony why do you have 10 halflings on a rope? "ME HUNGRY!"
Tons of fun.
No one said you had to be GOOD at clandestine work in order to have fun doing it.
Everypony deserves some love.
Dot.
OP may be a bit condescending and cliche in his rhetoric, but I think it's poor design that the game forces you to dump stats to excel at your chosen field. (Look at every single optimization guide. They all use dump stats, because they must. Every. Single. One.) Traditional literary heroes are generally above average in all ways. Dump stats aren't even really good for anti-heroes, since their 'flaws' tend to be more of an RP hook than an actual innate deficiency-- The hero chooses to be a dick, he's not one because he can't be nice.
Define 'traditional'. Because most of the literary heroes I enjoy have weaknesses and flaws (even if they wouldn't translate into a Tabletop RPG perfectly). 'above average in all ways'? No, plenty of literary heroes (other than the ones who I, and many others, find utterly boring) have some sort of deficiency. And, depending on how you make your stats, you might not need a dump stat--with rolls, you can easily have zero dump stats. For point-buy, you could go 16-14-14-10-10-10 for a 15-point buy...and plenty of people I know who do point-buy prefer 20-point buy.
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whatever happened to diff'rent strokes diff'rent folks.
Because some people have fun wrong? (Being sarcastic, not serious)
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When I see a wizard dump Str, I drop pillars on their head to trap them each combat and they can't get out because they're not strong enough.
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depend on the player. if you put an 8 to your intel to make a fun character, i have no problem. if you put an 8 to your intel with no roleeplay intention and only want to do max damage, yeah, i'll be proud to dominate you.
You sound like one of those obnoxious little 12 year old CoD kiddies who's just got their hands on a new game. "Oh man I dominated you so hard XD get gud skrub".
Get over yourself.
Vestrial, a Pathfinder fighter with a 16 strength is, by definition in game terms, "one of the best at -- as literary heroes are" in comparison to the standard "schmucks" in the game.You are comparing your character to other characters possible in the rules system, or other characters other players are playing in other games, not your character to the vast virtual gaming world where your character actually interacts. In that world your 16 str fighter with a 12 int is not only above average intelligence, but is much stronger than the average man in the street. Plus he will get stronger as time goes on and he boosts his stats and gains magic items to make him stronger.
The idea that a character has to start at level 1 with "at least" a racially adjusted 20...
His build sucks if you are referring to the Ionic.
He can't hit anything level appropriate past level 8.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vestrial, a Pathfinder fighter with a 16 strength is, by definition in game terms, "one of the best at -- as literary heroes are" in comparison to the standard "schmucks" in the game.You are comparing your character to other characters possible in the rules system, or other characters other players are playing in other games, not your character to the vast virtual gaming world where your character actually interacts. In that world your 16 str fighter with a 12 int is not only above average intelligence, but is much stronger than the average man in the street. Plus he will get stronger as time goes on and he boosts his stats and gains magic items to make him stronger.
The idea that a character has to start at level 1 with "at least" a racially adjusted 20...
His build sucks if you are referring to the Ionic.
He can't hit anything level appropriate past level 8.
Do you mean "iconic?"
By level 8 he can pump two more points into str for a str of 18. Plus he can get a belt of strength.
The game is about more than starting stats.
Plus this "can't hit anything" BS is tiresome. He is 5% less likely to hit something than someone with a starting str of 18, all other things being equal. One out of 20 times he will miss when the str 18 would have hit. That's if he doesn't get buffed some other way. At most that means he'll have to swing a couple more times in an encounter. So he might, or might not, take a bit more damage. Of course if he has a 16 in str because he put more into con, then he can probably take a bit more damage too. So it actually sort of balances out. Almost like it was designed that way.
This "he can't hit anything" attitude is absurdly, ridiculously exaggerated and exposes the real problem, which is that some people apparently consider a 5% difference in probability as the difference between "can mow down the opposition" and "can't hit anything".
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depend on the player. if you put an 8 to your intel to make a fun character, i have no problem. if you put an 8 to your intel with no roleeplay intention and only want to do max damage, yeah, i'll be proud to dominate you.So, what you're saying is, instead of just using any number of valid rules for character stat generation, you metagame incessantly to passive-aggressively attack the weakness of characters whose builds you don't approve of? And you're proud of this?sorry for bad english
In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
How do you determine if somebody dumps a stat to powergame, or to have a fun character? Why can't an optimized character be fun? Why would you be PROUD to make somebody's gaming experience suffer greatly because you don't like their playing style? WOuldn't it be more constructive to say 'I think we want different things from this game--you seem to want to optimize your character, while the rest of us want to play as more realistic characters who aren't min-maxed, could we meet each other halfway somehow?'
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When did table-top gamers, as a community, get so butt hurt?
Disregard! I just remembered we're on the internet.