the "Vote for Neither" button does not vote against both items- all it does it put them back into the line so that someone else has to vote on them. it seems like a lot of people are using that button when they don't like either option and we're all seeing a lot more of the weak entries as a result.
you're not picking a winner by voting for one (nor are you gonna eliminate a good item by voting for the other option), you're only saying i like this one at least a tiny little bit more than that one. that's all. so please just pick the one that's not as bad as the other one and vote so that we can all see more of the good items!
edit: it has been pointed out that this comes across as rude. i'm sorry. please read post #6 for further apologizing/explanation.
I don't think it works the way you think. If you vote long enough you will see ALL the entrys, good, bad or otherwise. It states something along the lines "if you like or dislike both equally, hit vote for neither".
There is no "line" that they are getting put in..all you are doing is ranking and adding a voice.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 8
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I think you need to chill. Neither is a valid choice. It may not be the choice that Paizo prefers, but telling people how to vote is not cricket.
Picking neither is making more work for all of the other voters. All that I ask is that every voter do his or her part. It is hard, I know, but it will get better if we all pitch in.
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i apologize if that came across as rude- that wasn't my intention.
the official description from paizo was that "neither" indicates that the items are of exactly the same quality- whether that quality is good or bad; if one is even slightly better than the other we're supposed to pick it.
the problem that i've been running into over and over (and over, and over...) is that so many people are using 'neither' when both items aren't of superstar quality that all of the items coming up fall into that category. we won't be able to see the bad items paired with good ones until the bad items get voted on enough times that the good ones come up again ('neither' doesn't count as being voted down- it treats both as if they hadn't been seen).
again, i'm not trying to be rude- and, obviously, its your time to do with as you like- but 'neither' isn't actually a vote and if people don't start ranking more of the sub-par items against each other then we'll never get to see all the really cool ones that do get votes right away when they come up.
@blackerose, i don't think it works the way you think. the voting program tracks how many times an item has actually been voted on and randomly assigns voters pairings of items with lower vote totals so that all the entries will, theoretically, get voted on the same number of times. unfortunately, 'neither' doesn't count as a vote so when lots of people are using it on pairs where both items are bad we end up with lots of bad entries with really low vote totals which means the same bad items keep popping up over and over again.
Uh, guys? If Paizo didn't want us to use the "neither" option, they wouldn't have included it. If it were creating a problem, they would remove it. So ... settle down, y'know? It's okay.
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It's not a matter of not using the "neither" button, but not using the "neither" button to avoid having to make a choice. If one item is not clearly superior to another, then yes, hit the button. Otherwise, make a choice, even if both items aren't good. Pick the lesser of two evils, but make a choice.
Why not JUST REMOVE neither?
PostMonster General
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I actually wanted to not have a neither button, but we actually need to be able to record ties in the database. Note that if you use the neither button it puts that pair back in the list of possible pairings for you, so there is a chance you will get that exact same pair again.
Keep in mind we have until January 15. In that time a lot of the neither button pushers will get tired and stop voting all together. Then the more serious people will get thier A or B vote on.
Why not JUST REMOVE neither?
I'm just guessing here, what with having the exact same information about how the votes are actually being tallied as almost everyone else on this thread, which is to say none whatsoever, but I'm going to say "Because it isn't a big deal."
Of course, I'm only basing that on the fact that the people who put that option in place do have information on how the votes are being tallied, which is, of course, the only piece of evidence we have in this debate. So, y'know. Feel free to disregard and/or continue wild speculation.
Edit: Or hey, maybe someone from Paizo will ninja me and confirm that the 'neither' option exists for a reason. That's cool too.
I actually wanted to not have a neither button, but we actually need to be able to record ties in the database. Note that if you use the neither button it puts that pair back in the list of possible pairings for you, so there is a chance you will get that exact same pair again.
Does everyone have a specific list to go through to, because that would explain why certain items kept popping up?
If you choose neither, I will choose the one you deep down dislike more. Every time. :)
Choosing "neither" is the same as not voting at all.
So telling people to not chose neither is kind of like telling people to not not vote.
I mean overall there are only a few dozen people out their hitting neither yet there are billions who aren't voting on this contest at all...who's the real villain here?
One question I have, and it may be the cause of the fact that I keep seeing about the same 50 items over and over, is the code that selects items to give a voter. Maybe it is not people using the tie button repeatedly.
I'm just speculating here, but I've noticed that if I get a new pairing and then log out and log back in later, I get the same pairing. Does this mean that these two items are out of circulation for others until I vote on them? Or at least less likely to appear?
This would also explain why I seem to get new items more often at certain times a day as internet usage increases and people vote on the items that they have been sitting on all day.
This may not be a big problem if the rankings are done with a ratio, say of up votes to number of views. That is except for items someone sat on during the first day and never gets voted on. That item's ratio will never get as well developed as an item that keeps at maximum circulation.
Again, this is just some musings I've been doing, not knowing how it really works.
One question I have, and it may be the cause of the fact that I keep seeing about the same 50 items over and over, is the code that selects items to give a voter. Maybe it is not people using the tie button repeatedly.
I'm just speculating here, but I've noticed that if I get a new pairing and then log out and log back in later, I get the same pairing. Does this mean that these two items are out of circulation for others until I vote on them? Or at least less likely to appear?
This would also explain why I seem to get new items more often as certain times per day as internet usage increases and people vote on the items that they have been sitting on all day.
This may not be a big problem if the rankings are done with a ratio, say of up votes to number of views. That is except for items someone sat on during the first day and never gets voted on. That item's ratio will never get as well developed as an item that keeps at maximum circulation.
Again, this is just some musings I've been doing, not knowing how it really works.
I see the same thing logging in and out. I am certain the system accounts for that. It should only be an issue on the last day of voting and will only be a small fraction which will possibly effect the cutoff #64 and #65 or #100 and #101 whatever the cutoff is for the judges who will probably each still get at least One Golden Ticket IMO. I have read comments that people voting at almost the same time like a husband and wife team often receive the same items to vote on.
It seems like there are two or three logic groups of items which change every day or two. The longer you vote that group the more repeat items you start seeing until the groups switch.
I believe it has something to do with consistent voting choices over time as a Marathon Voter you vote a lot and if voting consistently the network choices respond to that and your voting logic chain. A > B > C > D > E > F > G..........
One reason I believe you see an item compared to the same item on different sides verifying voting consistency.
If you vote a pair the same way 9 or 10 times out of ten while someone else votes randomly 4-6 times out of ten your vote will probably carry more weight in the logic chain.
I think some items are getting equal up and down votes as more people view them and vote them equal or up and down since we do not all have the same evaluation criteria.
I believe the computer is comparing comparably ranked and random items for it's logic weighting.
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Honestly I'm with eddy on this issue, stop hitting neither, there's really no 2 items that are exactly equal.
So they both suck, here's a matrix that might help:
1) Is one at least a good concept bad execution?
nope for both then...
2) Is one showing some solid item design even if its boring?
nope for both then...
3) Is one of them written up better than the other in terms of content?
still no then...
4) Is one formatted properly while the other is not?
they both botched format or managed to get it right, geeze then...
5) Does one have a stronger name then the other?
seriously both names suck, crap then...
6) Who made you endure less reading (look at word count) the shorter one should win.
Wow, they both had poor concepts, showed no skill in design, were exactly equals as wordsmiths, both got the format down, had equally stupid names, and hit the exact same word count? Really, are you sure? then...
7) You're either a lazy voter or you should resort to eeny meenie miny moe.
seriously don't make me view these parings by having no opinion, you're not helping...
Piazo please take this button away!
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you should resort to eeny meenie miny moeInaccurate data is better than no data?
Hah! I LOLed. Amusingly, though, in this particular case - kinda yes. The ranking of a very close pair, particularly a very poor pair, is not ultimately significant. OTOH, clearing the way to rank other pairs, pairs whose relative positioning is more substantial - that's more directly useful, I think.
Not that any of us are disagreeing here - we're all in favor of avoiding the "equally good/bad" button if at all possible. And it pretty much always is.
you should resort to eeny meenie miny moeInaccurate data is better than no data?
That's your take away? My sarcastic quip at the end? I'm going to break my New Years Resolution by bothering to reply to obvious flame bait...
I'll try using monosyllabic words so you get it: if you follow steps 1-6 and are alive,awake, sober, can read English, and have thus far avoided brain damage you should never get to step 7. If you get to step 7 and follow it you still win over the guy who hits the option that amounts to neither, because at least you're a decisive idjut!
But I do not think you are really saying you advocate neither (unless you demand the right to be lazy and not make a choice in which case you put allot of effort into being a slacker.) I think more your the type that love's playing devils advocate and I chomped down on the bait.
It seems when I am faced with two items that are both equally bad, that when I do decide to hit the neither button, they just come back into circulation right away, usually next vote. Its a cursed button, I tell you!
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I've been avoiding the "neither" button, but there's one case in which it's a useful option: when the voter isn't qualified to vote on a given item and needs to move on to others rather than guessing. This can happen when an item seems well-designed, but interacts with a subsystem that the voter isn't familiar with.
I realize that, even in this case, hitting "neither" isn't a great help to other voters. However, I think it's important out of respect for the submitters. For example, I nearly submitted a vehicle for this year's competition. I wouldn't have appreciated voters down-voting it out of ignorance because they didn't understand the vehicle rules.
On the other hand, there's no good reason to use "neither" to avoid choosing between two rock-bottom items. If you've got the worst and the second-worst item on your screen, it hardly matters which one you rank as better than the other. The worst thing you can do is keep them circulating with the "neither" button, taking up valuable spaces in the queue that could be occupied by a better item that would trounce them both.
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you should resort to eeny meenie miny moeInaccurate data is better than no data?That's your take away? My sarcastic quip at the end? I'm going to break my New Years Resolution by bothering to reply to obvious flame bait...
I'll try using monosyllabic words so you get it: if you follow steps 1-6 and are alive,awake, sober, can read English, and have thus far avoided brain damage you should never get to step 7. If you get to step 7 and follow it you still win over the guy who hits the option that amounts to neither, because at least you're a decisive idjut!
But I do not think you are really saying you advocate neither (unless you demand the right to be lazy and not make a choice in which case you put allot of effort into being a slacker.) I think more your the type that love's playing devils advocate and I chomped down on the bait.
Whoa man, you probably need to step back. This was an intensely hostile response to someone asking a valid question. Stunningly, there can exist opinions besides yours that aren't simply trolling.
I've voted neither a few times, and it is admittedly a last resort option, but voting randomly runs you the risk of having a lot of votes simply discounted if you create a logic loop.
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However, I think it's important out of respect for the submitters. For example, I nearly submitted a vehicle for this year's competition. I wouldn't have appreciated voters down-voting it out of ignorance because they didn't understand the vehicle rules.
Good point, and this helped me to decide what item to submit this year. The judges do like items that use new rules, but I wasn't sure the voting public would. Prior to the announcement that the first round would be voted on publicly, I was leaning toward an item that was only useful for characters of 2 or 3 classes. After the announcement I decided to reconsider an item I designed that was usable for any class in case I got a rash of voters who did not like the classes my top item was designed for.
I figure that the judges are free from this partiality for the most part, and indeed most of the dedicated voters here are likely also impartial, but I wondered how many casual voters would come in and offset them.
And I haven't been completely impartial in voting myself. There are a number of classes in the game that I have just never cared for. I will take a good class-only item over bad universal item, but if it is close, my prejudices have swung several votes. I will be interested in seeing how many items useful to any class make the top picks and how many use some of the added rules sets.
AAAAAAAHChill, I wasn't baiting anything. I didn't read the sarcasm. Please return to polysyllabic speech and I'll just back the hell up out this thread.
Sorry, rereading that I was way hostile, must have been a low blood sugar twitch, my bad.
I have clicked neither, and I will continue to click neither, if two items are equally poor. I try to avoid it whenever possible because I know it just throws it back into the pool, but there's been a couple times I really couldn't bring myself to vote for either. In one case, one of the items immediately popped up next to a much better item, so I was then able to vote against it. So that actually made it easier for me to keep voting.
If that bothers you, feel free to come over to the East Coast and have at me.
Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9
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I used to choose neither, rarely, until I got the exact same two items immediately after picking it. After that i always chose one over the other assuming a vote for a bad item won't affect the good stuff since it will get more votes against it and the judges wouldn't possibly pick it anyway.
Edit: I don't remember having to pick between two amazing items.
Took a couple days off of voting, helped sanity issues...
@DeathQuaker-
Your avatar looks scary, still would challenge to duel if I can name Joe Peschi as my proxy :p
I've hit the neither button maybe ten times during the entire voting process. Every time it was for two items that were bad enough that there was no real way to choose one over the other. Even with two very good items, I can find something that will put one or the other over the top.
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Took a couple days off of voting, helped sanity issues...
@DeathQuaker-
Your avatar looks scary, still would challenge to duel if I can name Joe Peschi as my proxy :p
Don't worry, I look much kinder and gentler in real life... or do I?
Bring it on!
Took a couple days off of voting, helped sanity issues...
@DeathQuaker-
Your avatar looks scary, still would challenge to duel if I can name Joe Peschi as my proxy :pDon't worry, I look much kinder and gentler in real life... or do I?
Bring it on!
ok you posed like your avatar on purpose!
Marathon Voter Season 6
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I haven't used the neither button yet and have mentioned before a preference that they trial blanking it for a day or two to see what happens. I kind of figure that if I'm trying to make top 32 and hopefully beyond, the least I can do out of respect for everyone else submitting their wondrous items is decide which item is better; even if the two items are effectively last in the queue. I haven't gotten tired of the process yet - I'm just loving playing at judge.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
