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I think the actual voting mechanism is confusing some people. I'm seeing a lot of people saying they vote "neither" when they don't like the items much, which isn't very helpful. And I can see, from the phrasing of the voting page, how people might be getting confused.
Consider: nowhere on the voting page does it say "vote for whichever of these two items you think is better than the other." The phrasing sounds much more like "vote for whichever of these two items you like." The system's much clearer in the voting rules, but let's not kid ourselves here :P
Here's a suggestion for phrasing I think would be better:
To vote, read both of the submitted entries below. Your vote is for which of these two items should be ranked above the other. When voting, there are plenty of considerations to take into account: Think about the design of each item, how well it follows the magic item format. If you think it's broken, and if it's an item you'd want in your game.
When you've made your choice, vote for the item you'd rank highest. If you think both items are equally good or bad, vote "neither." You can vote as many times as you like. Each time you refresh the voting page, you'll be shown a different pair of items.
Similarly, I'd change the text on the voting buttons. Here are some suggestions:
- (Item Name) is the better item.
- (Item Name) should be ranked higher than (Other Item Name)
- Of these two items, (Item Name) is better.
- These two items should be ranked exactly the same.
You could also change the voting buttons to a more straightforward question:
Which of these two items is better than the other?
- (Item A) is better.
- (Item B) is better.
- These two items are equally good or bad.
I've seen enough comments to convince me a lot of people aren't clear on this; since changing the text is usually pretty simple, I'd love to make things easier on the poor hapless voters :D
I think folks need to view it as voting for one item is like saying "Keep" and choosing not to vote for the other item is like saying "Reject." If you vote "Neither" you're not really assigning a "Keep" or a "Reject" to it. You're just passing the buck to someone else to decide...or waiting for those items to reshuffle into the random view, hoping they'll be paired with a much better item so you can "Keep" one and "Reject" the other. It's a valid way to sort. Just be advised that you may see those "Neither" items repeat fairly frequently until you finally render a judgement on them. Voting "Neither" isn't really throwing away your vote. It's just delaying it, assuming you cycle through enough items for them to come up again.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Neil, I believe that I am running into several people who are confused.
When the voting launched, I was under the impression that I was voting on whether or not either of the items were of Superstar quality. So, if one of the items had serious spelling and grammar issues, and the other had costing and prerequisite errors, then I would vote for "neither", because neither was at the level which I considered to be Superstar design.
My current understanding is that I should be voting for the stronger submission, whether it meets my threshold or not, and "neither" means "I like these equally well."
I am having discussions with several others who believe I was right the first time. In fact, I am in the decided minority.
my problem (neil) is that often i have trouble voting because it seems like both items really deserve "Reject" (or, once in a great while, both deserve "Keep") and the system doesn't allow that option...
i think-- and i'm sure its too late for this-- that the system would have worked better if instead of a 'no decision' option there were "both equally good" and "both equally bad" options where instead of re-queuing the pair both items would receive a smaller than typical bump in the appropriate direction.
Remember, guys...this is the first year they're trying this out. Presumably, they'll learn from this and tweak it further down the road. But, for now, they needed to have it set up this way to make the mathematical algorithm work out for them behind the scenes. Trust in the math. And keep voting.
That said, I understand your concerns. And, again, the way I'm choosing to rationalize it is that by voting for one item over the other, I'm basically saying one is a "Keep" in my mind and the other is a "Reject." If I feel like I'm looking at two "Reject" items simultaneously, I might select a "Neither" vote temporarily, knowing full well that they'll both cycle back in front of me again as I keep going. And, hopefully, when they do, they'll be paired against something better which I can then select to "Keep" and thereby register a "Reject" vote against the weaker one.
If, instead, I still go ahead and vote for what I deem to be the stronger of the two items, I'm trusting that other people will see that same item paired with something stronger and vote for the stronger one over the item I voted through. In the end, I'm trusting that all these votes get tallied together and they'll establish a presentation order for the judges' review. Then, I'm trusting Sean, Clark, and Wolfgang to find enough a compelling Top 32 as they start going down the "Keep" folder...i.e., the Top 64 or more.
Make sense?
I agree with Standback.
I think that the “Vote for Neither” option should be removed or have a wording change. I also think the term “Vote” should be changed. Here’s why:
I think a lot of people are using “Vote for Neither” when presented with two equally bad items. “So what?” you say. “Both were too poor to get a vote.” Except, that’s not how it works. For the voting system to work, every item needs to have had the same number of “games”. Think of it as sports matches between two teams, which is part of a league system. The league needs to end on the same number of games for each “team” otherwise it’s not fair.
When you “Vote for Neither” you don’t award a draw, you cancel the match, and both teams (magic items) return home, not scoring any points but also not scoring a “game played”. This just means that these items will crop up more for you and other people until their “games played” catches up with those items that are playing and winning/losing matches.
I suggest to the Paizo gang, that after a couple of days, they check to see if there is a very strong correlation between items that have very low total vote scores, and items that have been through many “Vote for Neither” results. I suspect the answer will be very much yes. This will confirm that this is happening, and that “Vote for Neither” is not being used to say “I cannot decide which item is better” but rather “Both items are poor”. This means that less verdicts are being returned for the (fixed) amount of review work the community is doing and the overall results are being weakened (and people are being fed weaker items more often than they should).
An alternative to removing the button would be to re-label it, as Standback says, eg “I can’t decide which item is better”, to make it clear it is not points you are withholding, but a decision. I would also suggest relabeling the “Vote for X” and “Vote for Y” to say “X is a better item than Y” and vice-versa. The term “Vote” is misleading, and implies you are endorsing that item. You are not. You are just making a relative judgement.
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I frequently get two mediocre items paired together. After several rounds of that, I'll suddenly get two awesome items paired together. It's disheartening to think that I may be helping rank several mediocre item higher than a great one... simply because one designer got a favorable pairing and the other did not.
I would suggest adding a "Vote for Both" button alongside the "Vote for Neither" button. It's counterintuitive to see one without the other.
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Good relabel. Thank you for the clarification.
I frequently get two mediocre items paired together. After several rounds of that, I'll suddenly get two awesome items paired together. It's disheartening to think that I may be helping rank several mediocre item higher than a great one... simply because one designer got a favorable pairing and the other did not.
I would suggest adding a "Vote for Both" button alongside the "Vote for Neither" button. It's counterintuitive to see one without the other.
"Downgrading" both is not part of the system (nor is upgrading both). You're not providing cumulative "pro" or "anti" votes with this system; you are simply providing an opinion of one item relative to the item it is displayed against, with no bearing to other items. At the end, a lot of math is done to create a full ranking.
In any case, we've relabeled the buttons to make the options more clear.
"Downgrading" both is not part of the system (nor is upgrading both). You're not providing cumulative "pro" or "anti" votes with this system; you are simply providing an opinion of one item relative to the item it is displayed against, with no bearing to other items. At the end, a lot of math is done to create a full ranking.
Got it. The buttons were relabeled while I was posting. It's much clearer now. Thank guys.
Meant to say this earlier, but: yay! Thanks for the fix!