Two Ranger levels (Natural Attack Style) would qualify you for it, even if you didn't take it as your Bonus Feat. Wouldn't hurt your BaB either.
If a character uses only natural attacks (say a catfolk with claws) and has a bite attack,
all natural attacks ARE primary, at full bab.Theoretically, if you build a character with two claws, a bite, tail attack, dip witch for prehensile hair, dip alchamist for 2 tentacles, dip rogue for 1d6 sneak, but do NOT use a manufactured weapon... In a full attack (assuming you are flanking to allow sneak damage)
You can hit with all 7 natural attacks, All are at full bab and your strength modifier, and add 1d6 sneak onto each one.
If my math is right, your str modifier is +4 and they all hit thats 7d4 + 28(from str) +7d6.
The tail and tentacles are not primary attacks, so they are done at full bab -5.
If a character uses only natural attacks (say a catfolk with claws) and has a bite attack,
all natural attacks ARE primary, at full bab.Theoretically, if you build a character with two claws, a bite, tail attack, dip witch for prehensile hair, dip alchamist for 2 tentacles, dip rogue for 1d6 sneak, but do NOT use a manufactured weapon... In a full attack (assuming you are flanking to allow sneak damage)
You can hit with all 7 natural attacks, All are at full bab and your strength modifier, and add 1d6 sneak onto each one.
If my math is right, your str modifier is +4 and they all hit thats 7d4 + 28(from str) +7d6.
That's all well and good, but can you point me to the RAW page and paragraph or PRD link to that ruling, please?
Because the bite attack in Orcs of Golarion (unless FAQ'd or Errata'd) specifies that it's BAB - 5 when used in a full-attack action. As written, that is a primary natural attack using the secondary bonus.
Hence my confusion.
I like where you're going with the maximizing number of attacks, but won't that seriously hamper my BAB/damage/DPR compared to a manufactured weapon fighter of equivalent build?
If I built a Kobold Barbarian/Ranger/Witch/Alchemist with claw, claw, bite, gore, tail, hair, tentacle, tentacle, all with sneak attack, it maaaaaay be stretching the cheese factor just a wee bit. But damn it would be cool.
Especially with the AoMF and possible access to Haste, Invis, Greater Magic Fang, and Strong Jaw.
So, disregarding the cheese, that's 8 natural attacks...
The tail and tentacles are not primary attacks, so they are done at full bab -5.If a character uses only natural attacks (say a catfolk with claws) and has a bite attack,
all natural attacks ARE primary, at full bab.Theoretically, if you build a character with two claws, a bite, tail attack, dip witch for prehensile hair, dip alchamist for 2 tentacles, dip rogue for 1d6 sneak, but do NOT use a manufactured weapon... In a full attack (assuming you are flanking to allow sneak damage)
You can hit with all 7 natural attacks, All are at full bab and your strength modifier, and add 1d6 sneak onto each one.
If my math is right, your str modifier is +4 and they all hit thats 7d4 + 28(from str) +7d6.
The bite is also at BAB - 5 because the description of the trait says so. Unless I see FAQ, Errata, or Dev Posts that say otherwise, I go by the RAW for that and consider the price paid for getting an attack through traits.
So, Claw, Claw, Hair, Gore at full BAB and Bite, Tail, Tentacle Tentacle at BAB-5. Drop those-5's to -2's with Multiattack and I'm pretty satisfied so far.
Although, I highly doubt that diluted build would stand up against the seriously damaging Catfolk Rogue build I posted earlier getting 2xclaws at 9d8+change and ability drain and a bite for 9d6+change and ability drain and bleed during every full attack.
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For the Catfolk Scout Rogue, I don't think the Catfolk Exemplar (Sharp Claws) feat is probably worth it. It's a whole feat for just an average of +1 damage per claw attack. You can probably do better.
I do think the Vicious Claws Rogue Talent is worth it, because it applies to each Sneak Attack die.
If you're going to go for a ki pool, you'd probably be better off going Ninja instead of Rogue plus the talent. Especially since the Ninja's ki pool uses Charisma instead of Wisdom, and Catfolk get a racial bonus to Charisma.
I think the consensus is that it's legal to take the Scout archetype as a Ninja.
Two Ranger levels (Natural Attack Style) would qualify you for it, even if you didn't take it as your Bonus Feat. Wouldn't hurt your BaB either.
You're right. So I could, indeed, create my biting, goring, clawing, headbutting Dwarven Ranger (Wild Stalker) who thinks he's an Orc Barbarian. That character concept, with the build mechanics espressed here, has true potential.
Or a claw/claw/bite/gore/tail/hair/tentacle/tentacle Kobold Ranger/Barbarian/Alchemist with 5 Natural Attacks at level 4. Add the rest of the levels in a Sneak Attack class (or use Vivisectionist) and an AoMF, and this is a truly scary monster. Literally.
Precision damage is a damage type not a bonus. Much like slashing damage or fire damage.
A magus could use a flaming weapon and deliver a fire spell with spellstrike and there is no problem as they are from different sources. The same applies here. Though most of the time SA stacks as well just because most other classes that provide SA have text on them stacking.
My bad. You're right. Thanks for clarifying.
Can anyone beat the damage output of that rogue build above using a Ranger or a Barbarian Build?
Because that's some pretty vicious damage if I'm getting SA on every attack by using Invisible Blade...
I built a Rage Prophet (Barbarian/Oracle) that could use a standard action to swing a sword with +41 to hit, ignore concealment, treat total concealment as concealment, and ignore all cover but total cover, and get a straight 230 points of damage. Not on average, but every time. Crane style feats with suck for him, though, but on the plus side, I don't have to worry about overcoming DR to get my sneak attacks through, or anything like that. And I can get that one attack in from the back of a moving mount, after I move, etc. Now, he can only do this around 30 rounds a day (30 attacks per day), but that usually suffices, I'd say. Plus, use the Flesh Wound rage power once a turn, has a DR of 6/- (12/- against nonlethal, which is what Flesh Wound would turn the attack into, as well as other things), and he boasts 390 hp. He can cast minor healing magics when he needs to. And he has a Large Wolf animal companion he rides on :)
For the Catfolk Scout Rogue, I don't think the Catfolk Exemplar (Sharp Claws) feat is probably worth it. It's a whole feat for just an average of +1 damage per claw attack. You can probably do better.
If you can point me to a better spent feat, I will entertain it. But I will not argue from a pure DPR standpoint unless it's a comparison of natural vs. manufactured weapon classes/abilities, please.
I do think the Vicious Claws Rogue Talent is worth it, because it applies to each Sneak Attack die.
Concur. I love that talent.
If you're going to go for a ki pool, you'd probably be better off going Ninja instead of Rogue plus the talent. Especially since the Ninja's ki pool uses Charisma instead of Wisdom, and Catfolk get a racial bonus to Charisma.Yes, but I like the fact that rogue would get both imp uncanny dodge and imp evasion. I don't like that Ninja lacks in that department. I do like the Ninja's capstone ability more than the Rogue's, however.
I think the consensus is that it's legal to take the Scout archetype as a Ninja.
I am pretty strict by RAW as both a player and a DM. If it's not listed as a Ninja Archetype, my Ninja cannot use it. That being said, I hate that there are no Ninja Archetypes, even in UC which introduced the darn class...
Also, Barry, on your combat routine, you don't need to use Vanish between the claws on the first turn. If they're flat-footed, you'll get SA damage on all your attacks. Same with using Scout's Charge or when you're flanking (you will need the vanish if you're using Skirmisher, though).
Looking at the mechanics, you actually make two attack rolls on your Claw Pounce Scout's Charge. IIRC, by RAW, only the first would qualify as flat-footed for the Scout's Charge. Once slapped by that first claw, the opponent would be aware of you and therefore not flat-footed for your second claw roll without the Vanish.
Am I off base somewhere with the RAW mechanics of that routine?
I built a Rage Prophet (Barbarian/Oracle) that could use a standard action to swing a sword with +41 to hit, ignore concealment, treat total concealment as concealment, and ignore all cover but total cover, and get a straight 230 points of damage. Not on average, but every time. Crane style feats with suck for him, though, but on the plus side, I don't have to worry about overcoming DR to get my sneak attacks through, or anything like that. And I can get that one attack in from the back of a moving mount, after I move, etc. Now, he can only do this around 30 rounds a day (30 attacks per day), but that usually suffices, I'd say. Plus, use the Flesh Wound rage power once a turn, has a DR of 6/- (12/- against nonlethal, which is what Flesh Wound would turn the attack into, as well as other things), and he boasts 390 hp. He can cast minor healing magics when he needs to. And he has a Large Wolf animal companion he rides on :)
Awesome. If this only said "using natural weapons" instead of "swinging a sword", I'd be golden. I play beside a Rage Prophet now with my Dervish Dancer Bard Whipmaster and he's a beast, to be sure. He uses an Heirloom Nodachi that's just ridiculous damage output.
As far as I remember, Scout's charge does not specify. It just says that you do sneak attack damage on a charge attack. I guess they weren't counting on pouncers *shrugs*
As far as I remember, Scout's charge does not specify. It just says that you do sneak attack damage on a charge attack. I guess they weren't counting on pouncers *shrugs*
You're right, it doesn't specify. It simply says "your attack" is considered to have left them flat-footed. That could be read two ways.
1) since the word attack is singular, it only applies to the original attack alloted by the Charge action. Anything else is treated as normal and I need the Vanish to deny my target his Dex bonus to AC.
2) Since I spent feats on Claw Pounce and Rending Claws, it doubles the attack, and most rends land simultaneously, so it still meets the qualifications for the flat-footed Scout's Charge condition, making the Vanish swift action irrelevant.
I mirror your shrug. If I leave the Vanish mechanic in the charge routine, it's legal either way. It's just a matter of whether it's *necessary* or not. I'd like to retain my swift action if possible.
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Whether or not they're aware of you has no bearing on when someone is flat-footed. "Flat-footed" is a condition of the defender, and does not depend on whether they are aware of their attacker. If they haven't gone yet in Round 1, they're flat-footed until they go. Same with Scout's Charge: both attacks get the charge bonus, so both attack as though the defender were flat-footed.
The only situation in which the target's awareness of you matters for SA is when the attacker has the "invisible" condition. Attacking when you have the invisible condition denies the target its Dex bonus, but this is completely separate from the flat-footed condition. The first attack usually ends the condition for the attacker. That's the only reason you'd only get SA on the first attack.
This is an extremely common misunderstanding! :) Especially because almost everybody uses the term "flat-footed" as shorthand for any situation in which the defender is denied their Dex bonus.
In the bestiary, it says all "bite" attacks follow the rules I mentioned.
Unfortunately, no devs have chimed in on the discussion, despite the fact that no one can figure out whats going on.
Keen scent could fit the animalistic flavor well. Be sure to keep a feat slot open for "Eldritch Claws"
Why exactly? You are going to need a AoMF for any of these builds. Which makes your attacks magic and at +3 overcomes silver DR. Its a pointless waste of a feat.
You mean for that ever popular creature that has DR/Silver that sits inside of AMFs all day long? Certainly every build needs to be prepared for that eventuality and invest feats into doing so.
Edit: Wow, I generally dislike sarcasm/snark since it's meaningless. Couldn't help myself, sorry. No good reason to talk to people that way.
In the bestiary, it says all "bite" attacks follow the rules I mentioned.
Unfortunately, no devs have chimed in on the discussion, despite the fact that no one can figure out whats going on.
Keen scent could fit the animalistic flavor well. Be sure to keep a feat slot open for "Eldritch Claws"
I forget where (but I want to say maybe one of RD's threads), I believe either SKR or JJ had commented on the trait something to the effect that getting a primary attack for a trait 'cost' wasn't the intention. Especially considering the other option costs a full feat and has racial requirements. Basically make it an exception to the general rule of bite being a primary natural attack for rules balance.
Obviously there are going to be people who say unless I supply a link it doesn't mean anything, then once some one who cares more about the subject digs up the link there will be people who say it isn't 'official.' But the reality is someone did comment on the issue before now and from a rules mechanic/balance perspective it makes sense.
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As for feats: instead of Sharp Claws I'd probably take Improved Initiative for more speed kills. Or maybe Fleet if you want even more charging range.
Thank you for clarifying flat-footed. So, indeed, the Scout's Charge Claw Pounce Rend attack would both qualify for Sneak Attack without Vanish. Groovy. I'd still want Vanish/Invis Blade for the other full-attack actions. Just don't have to include it in my initial Charge.
Improved Initiative might be good, but with an insanely high Dex build, I'd already be going faster than most characters. Instead of Fleet I would do Catfolk Exemplar (Superior Climber) to get +20ft on my Charge.
Won't need Eldritch Claws because any of these builds will rely on AoMF.
In the bestiary, it says all "bite" attacks follow the rules I mentioned.
Unfortunately, no devs have chimed in on the discussion, despite the fact that no one can figure out whats going on.
Keen scent could fit the animalistic flavor well. Be sure to keep a feat slot open for "Eldritch Claws"
Understood. The generic Bestiary rules, though, are trumped by the specific Orcs of Golarion trait wording. The trait itself that expressly states that, when used as part of a full-attack action, you use BAB - 5, which is the standard SECONDARY attack bonus. So, it's a primary attack that uses secondary rules.
The REAL monkeywrench in those works is Multiattack. RAW, Multiattack reduces the secondary attack penalties from -5 to -2. BUT The wording of Tusked does not take this into consideration.
So, In the case above where I get claw, claw, bite, tail, gore, hair, tentacle, tentacle (yes, that is ridiculous, but also AWESOME). By RAW, the BAB would be Claw, Claw, Gore at full BAB (Primaries); Tail, Hair, Tentacle, Tentacle at BAB-2 (Secondaries); Bite at BAB-5 (Secondary, no reduction with Multiattack).
That seems very, very wrong to me, but it's the RAW legal equivalent. Perhaps we should FAQ it.
Ok,
So different tactic.
Kobold Ranger can have 4 Natural Attacks at level 2:
Adopted, Tusked, Aspect of the Beast (Claws), Tail Terror.
No love for the Tengu?
Barbarian Tengu get bonuses to Superstitious like Humans, still have 3 attacls at level 1 and also have that gore attack at level 2.
Quick Question. Where are you getting the Bite attack from for the Catfolk?
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Aasimar, with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait, Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat, Tail Terror feat, Metallic Wings feat, Aspect of the Beast feat, Tusked trait, and a few potions of Monstrous Extremities.
This will give you x2 Claws, Tail Slap, x2 Wing Attacks, Bite, and x2 Hoof Attacks(from Monstrous Extremities).
No love for the Tengu?
Barbarian Tengu get bonuses to Superstitious like Humans, still have 3 attacls at level 1 and also have that gore attack at level 2.
I was just looking that very thing up and was going to Ninja edit my post to include them.
Tengu Barbarian can also have 4 Natural Attacks at level 2.
Aasimar, with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait, Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat, Tail Terror feat, Metallic Wings feat, Aspect of the Beast feat, Tusked trait, and a few potions of Monstrous Extremities.
This will give you x2 Claws, Tail Slap, x2 Wing Attacks, Bite, and x2 Hoof Attacks(from Monstrous Extremities).
Hmmm, I like where your brain is here (minus the potions). Not really trying to say *I want 40 bajillion Natural Attacks*, I want a character that would make an interesting story.
So far I have 3 very viable candidates for my Natural Attacker.
1) Catfolk Scout, maximized for Scout's Charge then claw, claw, bite. Basic build on page 1 of this thread.
2) Dwarven Wild Stalker, Natural Weapon Style. He'd have Claw, Claw, Bite, Gore and be absolutely convinced that he's an Orc Barbarian. Hell, he can even rage like one. And those filed teeth? Yeah, you go tell him he's not one... This really sounds like a brilliant and flavorful possibility.
2) Aasimar Dragon Disciple that has Claw, Claw, Bite, Tail, Wing, Wing outside of his Form of the Dragon. He'd be your worst nightmare once transformed. This one's got that coolness factor, and all props to blackbloodtroll for the build idea. Now, what to do with the other 10 levels....Sorcerer? Bard? What other caster classes qualify for the DD prereq? Has to be a spontaneous Arcane caster, right?
*Special note* Tengu Barbarian. Viable, but for some reason the Tengu race just doesn't speak to me.
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The cool thing about Aasimar, is that with so many combinations of Celestial beings that could make up your bloodline, you can really customize your look.
Here are listed examples:
1 Arms: appear sculpted from marble
2 Arms: extra long
3 Arms: feathered forearms
4 Arms: scaled forearms
5 Arms: seemingly boneless
6 Build: always slender
7 Build: beautifully proportioned
8 Build: graceful
9 Build: unusually light
10 Build: well-muscled
11 Digits: extra long
12 Digits: metallic nails
13 Digits: odd number
14 Digits: shining talons
15 Digits: unusually colored nails
16 Ears: catlike
17 Ears: feathered
18 Ears: long-lobed
19 Ears: pivoting
20 Ears: pointed
21 Eyes: catlike
22 Eyes: glowing
23 Eyes: iridescent
24 Eyes: jewel-like
25 Eyes: multicolored
26 Face: baby-faced
27 Face: metallic lips
28 Face: perfectly symmetrical
29 Face: unearthly beauty
30 Face: white scar
31 Hair: animated
32 Hair: feathers
33 Hair: heatless flames
34 Hair: metallic
35 Hair: turns silver in moonlight
36 Hands: always cool and dry
37 Hands: blackened knuckles
38 Hands: glowing palms
39 Hands: leave contrails
40 Hands: fingerprints look like holy symbols
41 Head: animal features
42 Head: bald
43 Head: draconic features
44 Head: halo
45 Head: unusually shaped
46 Legs: clawed feet
47 Legs: extra long
48 Legs: feathered shins
49 Legs: metallic scaled shins
50 Legs: unnaturally small feet
51 Shadow: animated
52 Shadow: bright
53 Shadow: metallic
54 Shadow: prismatic
55 Shadow: winged
56 Skin: ashen
57 Skin: feathered
58 Skin: furred
59 Skin: glittering
60 Skin: glowing
61 Skin: iridescent
62 Skin: metallic scales
63 Skin: metallic sheen
64 Skin: prismatic scales
65 Skin: unusual hue
66 Voice: echoes dramatically
67 Voice: musical
68 Voice: unusually high
69 Voice: unusually low
70 Voice: words you speak aloud seem to be heard mentally
71 Wings: butterfly
72 Wings: feathered
73 Wings: light
74 Wings: metallic dragon
75 Wings: prismatic
76 Other: always look clean
77 Other: always well lit
78 Other: androgynous
79 Other: breathing sounds like ocean waves
80 Other: clothing billows even without wind
81 Other: covered in freckles
82 Other: don't sweat
83 Other: floral breath
84 Other: fox tail
85 Other: melodic laugh
86 Other: multicolored tears
87 Other: nearby bells ring when you pass by
88 Other: no body hair
89 Other: pearlescent teeth
90 Other: random choral sounds surround you
91 Other: sacred birthmark
92 Other: stigmata
93 Other: sweet scent
94 Other: sweet taste
95 Other: trance-like sleep
96 Other: unicorn horn
97 Other: unusual footprints
98 Other: unusual temperature
With the Racial Heritage feat, you can reasonably add just about anything else not listed.
Yep, has to be a Spontaneous Arcane caster. Only need 1st level spells though.
Might I suggest taking one level of Synthesist Summoner to qualify and then levels of Alchemist for Discoveries that give you more attacks? Tentacle, Feral Mutagen (though I dunno if that would add anything for you, so maybe not), and Spontaneous Healing/Mummification is always nice.
Well now I think about it, just taking all 10 levels of Synthesist might be worth it instead of mix and matching all this stuff.
Summoner/Dragon Disciple doesn't seem all that bad. Extra breath weapon uses too if you want 'em.
Yep, has to be a Spontaneous Arcane caster. Only need 1st level spells though.
Might I suggest taking one level of Synthesist Summoner to qualify and then levels of Alchemist for Discoveries that give you more attacks? Tentacle, Feral Mutagen (though I dunno if that would add anything for you, so maybe not), and Spontaneous Healing/Mummification is always nice.
Well now I think about it, just taking all 10 levels of Synthesist might be worth it instead of mix and matching all this stuff.
Summoner/Dragon Disciple doesn't seem all that bad. Extra breath weapon uses too if you want 'em.
I question the validity of attacking with the Alchemists' tentacles and vestigial arms as natural attacks. It expressly says in both Discoveries that these do not give extra attacks or actions.
Tentacles can be used for grab attacks, and grab mechanics only the way I read it. Nice, but no thanks.
Vestigial arms says you can hold a weapon in your hand, but I see this as simply using it during your TWF lineup. I don't see this working either to gain "extra" natural attacks since it specifically says so.
I want to stick to completely natural attacks. I don't have to have a maximum number of them, just be very good at using the ones I have. Also want to stick to the three main builds that seem likely for me to play.
The Catfolk Scout (and I have reversed my own stickler-to-the-rules thinking on Scout, since it only swaps out uncanny dodge and imp uncanny dodge, I think Ninja should qualify since it has those to "give").
The Dwarf Wild Stalker. Epic story, not optimized mechanics.
The Aasimar Synthesist/Dragon Disciple. Wow. Umm. Can you say extremely cool and extremely dangerous in all three forms? I think this is going to be the winner. Sad face for not being PFS buildable, but that's fine. It will require homebrew DM rulings anyways for some of the abilities. Let's build this puppy...
Synth/Disciple sounds badass, go for it.
The whole Aasimar Dragon Disciple, "Child of Apsu" thing sounds pretty cool.
Walk the same path though, and you can still completely change the flavor if you so choose.
You lost me at Child of Apsu. Wuzzat?
Apsu, the patron deity of all good and metallic dragons.
Ahh, yes, I thought there might have been some obscure Archetype I didn't know about...
Barry: I understand that you want to stick to natural weapons. How do you feel about including unarmed strikes? If you're open to it, I think I've got a way to improve the Catfolk Scout.
You'll have eight attacks with a full attack at level 15.
Perfect timing, by the way. I was just working on a very similar build today. I've combined them as follows:
Level 15 Catfolk Rogue (Scout) with 14 STR, 24 Dex, 14 WIS, 16 CHA
Traits:Adopted, Tusked
Racial Traits: Cat's Claws, Sprinter
Feats: Multiattack, Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two Weapon Fighting, Nimble Striker, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Claw Pounce, Power Attack
Talents: Vicious Claws, Ki Pool (2pts), Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Ninja Trick (Invisible Blade), Crippling Strike, Pressure Points, Bleeding Attack
Items: Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists +3
Actions on first round:
Scout's Charge and Claw Pounce with Power Attack
Attack:
+21 (BAB+Dex+charge+AoMF-PA) to each claw
Damage:
First Claw = 1d4(Claw) + 8d8(SA) + 22(Bleed,PA,Dex,AoMF) + 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
Second Claw = 1d4(Claw) + 8d8(SA) + 14(PA,Dex,AoMF) + 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
Worse so far, but...
Actions on subsequent rounds till Ki Pool runs out:
Spend 1 Ki point to Vanish, declare full-attack action. I passed on power attack here to increase chance to hit, but it would depend on what you're fighting.
Attack
+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 for US/US/claw/claw/bite/US/US/US.
First unarmed strike = 1d3 + 8d6(SA) + 18(bleed,dex,AoMF)+ 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
Second US = 1d3 + 8d6 + 10(dex,AoMF)+ 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
Each of two claws = 1d4 + 8d8 + 6(0.5 dex for secondary attack,AoMF)+ 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
Bite = 1d4 + 8d6 + 6(0.5 dex for secondary attack,AoMF)+ 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
Each of three more US = 1d3 + 8d6 + 10(dex,AoMF)+ 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]
If everything in this round hits (ha) then it averages 333 damage.
Barry: I understand that you want to stick to natural weapons. How do you feel about including unarmed strikes? If you're open to it, I think I've got a way to improve the Catfolk Scout.
You'll have eight attacks with a full attack at level 15.
Perfect timing, by the way. I was just working on a very similar build today. I've combined them as follows:
** spoiler omitted **
Where are you getting the extra three attacks from? I see the two from ITWF, which I am assuming you're using kicks for, but...where are the others? Combinations of UA and NA are limited to 1 attack per limb. Two Arms, Two Legs, and One Head take up all of those "slots".
By sticking to ONLY natural attacks, there is no limit. (Which is why I was trying to use them exclusively).
Also, I can see maybe passing up the INA and Catfolk Exemplar feats (I can get a wand of Strong Jaw to compensate) but Rending Claws would be a must in my Scout's Charge mechanic, and it's virtually built to work there.
I'd definitely be willing to give up the ability damage talents in trade for the TWF kicks, though. Having Claw, Claw, Bite, Kick, Kick with rend and sneak attack would be pretty awesome.
Ok. Time to post the first full build. This is without Haste or Poison, and not even close to the magic items I could have.
Traits: Adopted, Tusked
Racial Traits: Cat’s Claws, Sprinter
20pt Build Abilities: 13 STR, 22 DEX, 10 CON, 8 INT, 8 WIS, 20 CHA
Ki Pool: 15 points
Feats: Two-Wpn Fighting, Imp Two-Wpn Fighting, Multiattack, Imp Unarmed Attack, Power Attack, Nimble Striker, Claw Pounce, Catfolk Exemplar (Sharp Claws), Imp Natural Attack (Claws), Wpn Finesse
Ninja Tricks: Vicious Claws, Vanishing Trick, Bleeding Attack, Combat Feat: Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Master Tricks: Invisible Blade, Ghost Step, Unarmed Mastery, Improved Evasion, Offensive Defense, Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Active Items: Wand of Strong Jaw, Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Monkey Belt, Nightmare Boots, Deliquescent Gloves, Cloak of Fangs
Power Charge Attack: +23/+23 Claws (+15 BAB + 6 DEX + 2 Charge + 4 AoMF -4 PA)
Charge Damage: 24d8 (2xStrong Jaw’d Sneak Attack Claws) + 5d6 (Boots, Gloves, Rend) + 36 (2xDex, 2xAoMF, 2xPA) + 10 (Bleed)
Assuming median rolls, that's 147 damage + 10 bleed on a Pounce Rend Power Scout’s Charge.
Unpowered Full Sneak Attack: +23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23 Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail/Kick/Kick (+15 BAB +6 DEX +4 AoMF -2 GTWF (or -2 Multiattack))
Unpowered Full Sneak Damage: 32d8 (2xStrong Jaw’d Sneak Attack Claws, 1xStrong Jaw’d Bite with Cloak, 1xTail, 2xKick) + 42d6 (Sneak Attack Bite,Tail, 2xKick, Acid Gloves) + 60 (DEX + AoMF)
Assuming median rolls, that’s 314 damage on a Claw, Claw, Bite, Tail, Kick, Kick. Unarmed Mastery Ninja Trick rocks.
Not sure how you were getting 8 legal attacks per round with your build, Ian, but mine is 6 legal attacks per round. If someone could check my math and my DPR, it would be much appreciated.
So, how would the build be affected by a "small" dip in either:
Ranger- (Rending claws and multiattack, ignore prereqs. Tracking for flavor)
Monk- MOMS Boost to AC, boar shred and dragon ferocity to boost damage, and UAS for free
If by small you mean a 2 level dip in Ranger, just to get tracking and some other "Scouty" flavor, it wouldn't affect it very much.
I believe it would increase the BAB by 1 and reduce the SA dice by 1, and free up either a Feat slot or a Master Trick slot, if my math is correct.
A dip into MoMS would keep current BAB, trade out Imp UAS for Feral Combat Training, add flurry potential for more attacks, crunching numbers now for sacrificing sneak attack dice for boar's shred/dragon ferocity dice...might be worthwhile anyways for those non-sneak attack moments. More assured damage = win. Great idea!
Ahem, you guys should really look at my alchemist build...
Vivisectionist Internal Alchemist
I personally think this is the best class to select, since you can obtain an enormous number of powerful natural attacks. I also have an Aasimar build that can basically reach anywhere from 11 to 13 natural attacks as well (but again, u really won't need that many).
Where are you getting the extra three attacks from? I see the two from ITWF, which I am assuming you're using kicks for, but...where are the others? Combinations of UA and NA are limited to 1 attack per limb. Two Arms, Two Legs, and One Head take up all of those "slots".
By sticking to ONLY natural attacks, there is no limit. (Which is why I was trying to use them exclusively).
Can you help provide a rules reference for this? The only thing I found was:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html
I don't see anything that says that you don't get your normal iterative attacks with a weapon if you combine it with a natural attack. So I'd assume that a 15th level catfolk monk could punch three times with the same fist, just like he could strike three times with a single weapon, in addition to striking out with his free hand for a claw attack (as a simple example).
- Niilo
Can you help provide a rules reference for this?
Nope. I sure can't. But what I can provide is a reversal of my original words since I found the references that correct me:
Emphasis mine. The way I read this is as long as we still use the "one limb per attack" rulings above, we're good. So, if we don't use the same arm to elbow with an Unarmed Strike because we clawed with it, we're legal. If I use all the normal attacks as unarmed strikes (kicking), and then claw/claw/bite/tail, that indeed increases the number of attacks as he said above. Those are simply some fast-kicking feet.
You're right, and there's no reason to use a claw. Just do kick/kick/claw(-5)/claw(-5)/bite(-5)/gore(-5)/tail slap(-5), but if you have a large number of attacks, its not worth the -5 (or even -2 with multiattack)
I'm building a ranger 3/moms 2/Scout-ninja 4 the rest, not sure... Claw Pounce + Scout's Charge + Fast Getaway = cheese I think.
(Scouts charge, claw pounce, attack with two claws, on the second claw activate fast getaway. Next round, rinse and repeat.)
Redchigh, you can't gore and bite. That's using two natural attacks with the same limb (head). Isn't it?
Also I'd question being able to use Fast Getaway with the Scout's Charge since it requires you to "spend" a move action. Meaning you don't get an EXTRA one. Charge, being a special full-round action, consumes all of your available move actions.
Even Haste wouldn't work to give you extra move (although it would extend the range of your charge by 60 extra feet. A Catfolk Ninja with Scout's Charge would have a range of 140ft on that movement).
I think, overall, a two-level dip in MoMS for my build only slightly improves the damage output, but the HUGE draw is the Dragon Style feat and the ability to enchant my limbs for overcoming DR or using Agile (or other weapon properties). I'm not sure if that's worth a tradeoff for the Ninja capstone ability of being invisible even from see invis/true seeing. That capstone ability is what makes the full build frightening.
Instead of the unarmed attack route on your catfolk ninja, how about boot blades on feather step slippers instead?
I appreciate the input, but this is a natural attack build. No manufactured weapons. Natural attacks and unarmed attacks, weaving the two, is my sole exception. This is not about Ninja flavor, it's about using Natural Attacks effectively.
I am interested in seeing a Ranger 2/MoMS 2/Ninja Scout 16 build, though. Not sure it'd be worth it unless I'd gain more feats to spend.
I might explore this one later. Seems like it would be worthwhile.
Bite and Gore are a confusing case...
The "head" could be an appendage, but the "Jaw" could be an appendage too.Maybe flip through the bestiary and see if any creatures have both?
A jaw is not a limb. A limb is an extremity or appendage sticking out from the torso. A jaw is attached to the head. Horns (to gore) are attached to the head. A head is a single limb. There are monsters that have both gore and bite, but PCs are not those specific monsters. The Bestiary even says that individual monsters have attacks and abilities that go beyond the normal charts.
It's not a confusing case. It's a case of people, as usual, reading too far into the rules to try to qualify themselves for extra things that aren't allowed by RAW (like the ability for Ninja's to be Scouts).
I think build # 2 will be a Aasimar Ranger 2 (Natural Weapons Style)/MoMS 2 (Dragon and Boar Style)/Ninja 16 (Scout).
This build maximizes the use of the 2 levels of Ranger & Monk, and minimizes the loss of the Ninja capstone with access to the Kobold tail attack and Aasimar Wings for flight.
Tradeoff will be the loss of the Pounce Rend on Scout's Charge. (Maybe turn the Scout's Charge mechanic into a dive bomb of some kind?)
If I calculate that correctly, that is: Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail/Wing/Wing/Kick/Kick/Kick/Kick/Kick if I use Multiattack and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
The sickness continues...