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Hi There,
Wondering if this has been addressed in a PFS context at least? The devs don't seem concerned with it.
Do these two feats stack?
Original thread here.
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There hasn't been any official statement from Mike or Mark on Agile Maneuvers or Weapon Finesse stacking with Fury's Fall, but, despite JJ, there is no need to, since one replaces Strength with Dexterity, while the other adds Dexterity, they would stack.
My Dex-based Fighter PC didn't take Fury's Fall, not because it was illegal, but because my primary PFS GM, at the time, asked me not to. He felt that it was too much cheese, and also that my trip PC was already too good at tripping.
To be honest, I don't think he was terribly happy at my PC's taking Improved Disarm instead, as that hit many PFS NPCs with a second nerfbat. Prone and disarmed? Ugly, just ugly.
Fighter (Polearm Master) 9, so BAB +9
Dex 24 +7
Agile Maneuvers
Weapon Finesse (for use with an Agile rapier as a backup weapon)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Greater Trip
Greater Disarm (+2 is nice, the 15' bit is a bit of overkill, really)
Combat Reflexes (8 AoOs)
Gang Up (an extra flank never hurts, although possibly redundant with Flexible Flanker from his archetype)
+1 ghost touch silversheen fauchard
+1 agile rapier
Total:
Trip with fauchard: +22 (+2 if flanking, +2 if on a ready or AoO)
Disarm with fauchard: +20 (+2 if flanking, +2 if on a ready or AoO)
Trip with rapier: +21 (+2 if flanking)
Disarm with rapier: +19 (+2 if flanking)
Against humanoids around his tier, that is usually good enough. Seldom a failure, even less often that fail by 10 needed to worry about being tripped.
In the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module, which is 11th level, he would only have a potential problem with one humanoid opponent in the whole thing...
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The argument in favor of it is that you're not actually adding a dex bonus with Agile Maneuvers. You're just calculating your CMB differently. When you add the dex bonus from Fury's Fall, it's still CMB + dex bonus, even though CMB already has dex bonus in it.
I can see the argument, and I could go either way on it. Luckily, I don't have to worry about it for my tripping specialist character, as mentioned above.
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So when you calculate your CMB, how does Dex get incorporated?
You add it to your BAB and any other bonuses you get to your CMB.
So to say that you aren't adding it, you just are calculating your CMB with Dex is not a valid argument.
You have to add numbers to your CMB to calculate it.
You bonuses of the same type once to any single roll (unless it specifically says otherwise--i.e. I forget if Circumstance works the same in Pathfinder as it did in 3.5, in that Circumstance bonuses stack; Dodge bonuses often stack).
You can't add your Dex bonus twice to the same roll, no matter what language you use to how its being incorporated.
You can't add your Dex bonus twice to the same roll, no matter what language you use to how its being incorporated.
I see your bet and raise you "add your Dexterity bonus to this roll twice." Not that it appears in the rules anywhere that I've seen, but your absolutism about the issue seems unfounded to me.
More specifically: you are correct that most typed- bonuses (aside from dodge bonuses to AC) do not stack, but if someone spent two feats (or say a feat and a +1 weapon property) to get "add your dexterity modifier to damage rolls" twice (for example if a gun could have the Agile weapon property* a Pistolero could add their dex to damage from the class ability and then a second time from Agile) then they would get to add their dexterity modifier to damage rolls twice.
*Agile requires Melee weapons so you can't put it on a gun; or at the least, I would rule that you can put it on there, but you only benefit when you're using your gun as a melee weapon per the pistol whip deed or as an improvised melee weapon.
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Stacking rules say that you only get one typed bonus at a time.
In this case, its your Dex bonus.
It doesn't matter if it replaces Strength or is added. It is still a Dex bonus, and you can't have two bonuses of the same type modifying a roll.
One is not a bonus, it is use your Dex mod in place of your Str mod.
The second is a bonus, but it is untyped. Add your Dex mod to your Trip attacks. Note that it doesn't say "But not if you alreadfy add your Dex mod from another source."
Important: Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, and Fury's Fall are DIFFERENT sources.
Because of how they are written, Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse don't stack (and I have sent in a BUG to HeroLabs about that), since they both state replace yyour Str mod with yoru Dex mod, but Fury's Fall is written different.
And Weapon Finesse, as a feat for combat, has long predated the existence of Fury's Fall, so it can't have been something overlooked because "nothing did it". Weapon Finesse did it.
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so lets see some numbers in the argument...
we've got a problem with fury's fall because it adds your dex to trips, even with unfinessable weapons? why its supporting MAD builds. A fighter with 18 str, 16 dex for example:
a 1st level strength based human fighter with a tripping weapon, fury's fall, combat expertise and improved trip can have +1 bab +4 str +2 to trips and +3 for fury's fall from his dex for a +10 to trip.
but Fury's Fall for a SAD build is great?
a 1st level dex based human maneuver master monk with a tripping weapon, fury's fall, agile maneuvers and improved trip can have +1 bab for maneuvers, +5 dex, +2 to trips, +5 again from fury's fall even though he's already adding his dex once. for a total +13 to trip at 1st level, twice in a round with Flurry of Maneuvers.
noooo. that'll never be broken. that can't possibly be the intent of fury's fall...
*Agile requires Melee weapons so you can't put it on a gun; or at the least, I would rule that you can put it on there, but you only benefit when you're using your gun as a melee weapon per the pistol whip deed or as an improvised melee weapon.
Derail: Actually, Agile requires a finessable weapon, so no guns
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You can't add your Dex bonus twice to the same roll, no matter what language you use to how its being incorporated.I see your bet and raise you "add your Dexterity bonus to this roll twice." Not that it appears in the rules anywhere that I've seen, but your absolutism about the issue seems unfounded to me.
More specifically: you are correct that most typed- bonuses (aside from dodge bonuses to AC) do not stack, but if someone spent two feats (or say a feat and a +1 weapon property) to get "add your dexterity modifier to damage rolls" twice (for example if a gun could have the Agile weapon property* a Pistolero could add their dex to damage from the class ability and then a second time from Agile) then they would get to add their dexterity modifier to damage rolls twice.
*Agile requires Melee weapons so you can't put it on a gun; or at the least, I would rule that you can put it on there, but you only benefit when you're using your gun as a melee weapon per the pistol whip deed or as an improvised melee weapon.
Um, I did state that, “unless otherwise noted” and even gave some examples.
Anytime you have a rule, that rule can be broken by something else that explicitly states otherwise.
Like the Mindchemist allowing the use of Intelligence bonus twice on Knowledge skills.
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Stacking rules say that you only get one typed bonus at a time.
In this case, its your Dex bonus.
It doesn't matter if it replaces Strength or is added. It is still a Dex bonus, and you can't have two bonuses of the same type modifying a roll.
One is not a bonus, it is use your Dex mod in place of your Str mod.
The second is a bonus, but it is untyped. Add your Dex mod to your Trip attacks. Note that it doesn't say "But not if you alreadfy add your Dex mod from another source."
Important: Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, and Fury's Fall are DIFFERENT sources.
Because of how they are written, Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse don't stack (and I have sent in a BUG to HeroLabs about that), since they both state replace yyour Str mod with yoru Dex mod, but Fury's Fall is written different.
And Weapon Finesse, as a feat for combat, has long predated the existence of Fury's Fall, so it can't have been something overlooked because "nothing did it". Weapon Finesse did it.
That’s incorrect.
Regardless how its written that your Dex modifier is being used, it is still being used to modify the roll.
You can’t stack like modifiers (bonuses) unless otherwise indicated (dodge, circumstance, mindchemist, etc.)
It is this kind of creative interpretation that gives the cheese monkey’s a bad name to be honest.
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you have feats that let you
- use your character level for your BAB in CMD.
- add your Dexterity modifier instead of adding Strength modifier for any maneuver
- add your Dexterity modifier instead of adding Strength modifier for finesse weapons
- add your Dexterity modifier for the trip maneuver only
the few times the game does let you double add a bonus, it explicitly calls it out as an exception. such as the mindchemyst, or dodge bonuses. The fact that fury's fall doesn't explicitly allow you add your dexterity bonus twice, means you cannot do it. your ability modifier is effectively a bonus of its ability type (Strength or type Dexterity).
so you can have CMB = BAB + STR, change it to CMB = BAB + DEX, but you can't get to CMB = BAB + DEX + DEX because it doesn't stack and its the same bonus.
it does let you do things like effectively finesse a normally unfinessable weapon like a polearm to get CMB + STR + DEX to trip with it. but it doesn't let someone with agile maneuvers add their dex twice.
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As much as I hate the cheese mongering, I don't see a listed type tag anywhere when I read about calculating CMB. It doesn't say "Add your Strength/Dexterity modifier as a 'Type X' bonus." That would make it untyped by default.
This statement makes no sense to me.
Dexterity Modifier is a type Dexterity Modifier bonus.
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As much as I hate the cheese mongering, I don't see a listed type tag anywhere when I read about calculating CMB. It doesn't say "Add your Strength/Dexterity modifier as a 'Type X' bonus." That would make it untyped by default.This statement makes no sense to me.
Dexterity Modifier is a type Dexterity Modifier bonus.
That's not a real typed bonus (until the Paizo rulemakers say otherwise). A type bonus is one such as "enhancement" or "deflection" or "dodge".
Dodge bonuses specifically state it stacks not due to the feat name (although this is likely where the name came from), because there are other abilities which give "dodge" bonuses, such as the Gunslinger's Nimble ability. These are the ones that specifically call out that "unlike other bonuses, dodge bonuses stack".
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Sounds like the main question here (which I'm not sure everyone is aware they're asking/answering) is simply "Is 'dexterity' a bonus type?"That's what I realized later.
IIRC, a stat modifier isn't a typed bonus, it's a modifier.
But a positive modifier is a bonus - that's in the first chapter of the rulebook. So "it's not a bonus, it's a modifier" is provably false. If it's a modifier, and it's positive, it's a bonus.
So the question is not whether your DEX mod is a 'bonus', as you imply (and seem to think I was saying). The question is whether 'dexterity' is a type (like 'dodge' or 'circumstance' or 'insight').
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Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
So your ability modifiers are considered a bonus when its positive, a penalty when its negative.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Your Dexterity Modifier becomes a Dexterity Bonus (or penalty) to AC, Initiative, CMD, et. al.
You can only apply a specific bonus once to a roll. In this case, whatever the ability is, you can only apply that bonus once to a roll, unless there is an ability, feat, spell, etc. that says otherwise (thinking Mindchemist here).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Andrew,
I'd point out that you go to an absolute "You can only apply a specific bonus to one roll" from a general "As a general rule."
Also the test you quote says "Most bonuses have a type." I do not see where ability bonuses (or penalties) have a type.
That's the crux of the issue. Calling it a "Dexterity Bonus" doesn't makes its type 'dexterity'
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Calling it a "Dexterity Bonus" doesn't makes its type 'dexterity'
Calling something a 'dodge bonus' makes its type 'dodge'.
Calling something a 'competence bonus' makes its type 'competence'.
Calling something a 'morale bonus' makes its type 'morale'.
Calling something a 'circumstance bonus' makes its type 'circumstance'.
Why is it suddenly different for 'dexterity bonus'?
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Andrew,
I'd point out that you go to an absolute "You can only apply a specific bonus to one roll" from a general "As a general rule."
Also the test you quote says "Most bonuses have a type." I do not see where ability bonuses (or penalties) have a type.
That's the crux of the issue. Calling it a "Dexterity Bonus" doesn't makes its type 'dexterity'
It may be a hole in the way the rules are written, but it is generally understood that you don’t apply your ability modifier to any single roll more than once.
And because the abilities can be modified by other bonuses, thus modifying the ability modifier, specifically stating that each ability is its own typed bonus becomes confusing.
But also, inferring that because it doesn’t say that a Dexterity modifier is a “typed” bonus, it must be an untyped bonus, and thus applicable more than once to a single roll really has no foundation in the inherent way the game works.
The ability modifiers affect so many things in the game, but are themselves also affected by many, many different things in the game.
However, until a developer specifically comes in and says that you get your ability modifier twice with these two feats, I’m going to rule it that ability modifiers are typed bonuses based on the ability.
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Calling it a "Dexterity Bonus" doesn't makes its type 'dexterity'Calling something a 'dodge bonus' makes its type 'dodge'.
Calling something a 'competence bonus' makes its type 'competence'.
Calling something a 'morale bonus' makes its type 'morale'.
Calling something a 'circumstance bonus' makes its type 'circumstance'.
Why is it suddenly different for 'dexterity bonus'?
The only valid point in their argument, is that the list of Bonus Types does not include ability types.
Although that list does not say it is exhaustive either.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The one thing that gives me pause on this whole Fury's Fall thing is this:
Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse both say that you get DEX instead of STR. Fury's Fall makes no such replacement, clearly allowing you to use both ability modifiers on your trip attempts (the flavor text even supports this as being the intent).
If we disallow "douple-dipping DEX", then that means someone who already has Fury's Fall and then takes Weapon Finesse will suddenly get worse at tripping people than he was when he only had one feat instead of two. That is, if a guy has 16STR and 16DEX and Fury's Fall, he has +6 to trip. If he then takes Weapon Finesse, he actually goes down from +6 to +3.
Can that really be right?
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The one thing that gives me pause on this whole Fury's Fall thing is this:
Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse both say that you get DEX instead of STR. Fury's Fall makes no such replacement, clearly allowing you to use both ability modifiers on your trip attempts (the flavor text even supports this as being the intent).
If we disallow "douple-dipping DEX", then that means someone who already has Fury's Fall and then takes Weapon Finesse will suddenly get worse at tripping people than he was when he only had one feat instead of two. That is, if a guy has 16STR and 16DEX and Fury's Fall, he has +6 to trip. If he then takes Weapon Finesse, he actually goes down from +6 to +3.
Can that really be right?
Sure, the same way when I wear a Ring of Protection +2 and an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 I get +4 to my AC, but if I turn around and wear a Robe that gives me a deflection bonus to AC and sell my Amulet of Natural Armor, I would only have a +2 to my AC. The two deflection bonuses won’t stack.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Calling it a "Dexterity Bonus" doesn't makes its type 'dexterity'Calling something a 'dodge bonus' makes its type 'dodge'.
Calling something a 'competence bonus' makes its type 'competence'.
Calling something a 'morale bonus' makes its type 'morale'.
Calling something a 'circumstance bonus' makes its type 'circumstance'.
Why is it suddenly different for 'dexterity bonus'?
So if I call my dodge feat "Dance on dance off" is it now a dance bonus?
Is it a dexterity bonus, or an ability bonus? Is it an untyped bonus that is determined by dexterity?
Weapon Finesse specifically says you may use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier.
I can see the argument working like this...
Feat X says I can use Wisdom instead of Strength.
Feat Y says I can use Wisdom and Strength.
So I am adding Strength (substituting Wisdom for Strength) to my Wisdom bonus.
In other words, it is unclear what type of bonus you get from an attribute, and if it is 'stacking' if you are substituting an attribute for an attribute that can normally stack.
Which is what the OP is asking.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As you read it you must choose. Many people are seeing room for variance. Thus the need for an official ruling.
Or to paraphrase Jiggy, do you really want to spend a feat to get worse at your dedicated task?
Edit: Didn't want to put words in someone else's mouth.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So if I call my dodge feat "Dance on dance off" is it now a dance bonus?Calling it a "Dexterity Bonus" doesn't makes its type 'dexterity'Calling something a 'dodge bonus' makes its type 'dodge'.
Calling something a 'competence bonus' makes its type 'competence'.
Calling something a 'morale bonus' makes its type 'morale'.
Calling something a 'circumstance bonus' makes its type 'circumstance'.
Why is it suddenly different for 'dexterity bonus'?
What are you talking about? How is this even a reply to me?
Weapon Finesse specifically says you may use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier.
I can see the argument working like this...
Feat X says I can use Wisdom instead of Strength.
Feat Y says I can use Wisdom and Strength.
So I am adding Strength (substituting Wisdom for Strength) to my Wisdom bonus.
In other words, it is unclear what type of bonus you get from an attribute, and if it is 'stacking' if you are substituting an attribute for an attribute that can normally stack.
Which is what the OP is asking.
Yes, this is the question at hand. Relevant to answering it is the issue of whether 'dexterity' is a bonus 'type'.
again...
Where does Fury's Fall come from
Cheliax companion book IIRC
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As you read it you must choose. Many people are seeing room for variance. Thus the need for an official ruling.
Or to paraphrase Jiggy, do you really want to spend a feat to get worse at your dedicated task?
Edit: Didn't want to put words in someone else's mouth.
But an official ruling will likely be necessary from the developers, not from Mike.
This is more a rules question than a PFS question.
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the rules forum on this topic is largely the same: no it doesn't stack.
it becomes more of an issue as more PFS characters look to take Fury's Fall with entirely dex based characters.
i've told a player in my locality that fury's fall and agile maneuvers won't stack
at 3rd level he had a +14 trip and completely locked down encounters. after the game i puzzled out what was so wrong: he was using dex twice, and he was using a guisarme with maneuver master to flurry trips at reach.
Fury's fall is a great feat. it is meant to help out trips by adding your dex and your strength to it. builds that focus only on one stat though already get to have a higher modifier for it, than if they have MAD.
That is, if a guy has 16STR and 16DEX and Fury's Fall, he has +6 to trip. If he then takes Weapon Finesse, he actually goes down from +6 to +3.
Can that really be right?
thats a good case, you're not going to even take a feat that you can't use ( prone shooter pre faq anyone? ). if you've got a good str and a good dex already, fury's fall is great for you. if you've got a good dex and are focusing on maneuvers, agile maneuvers is already the feat you want. if you're only focusing on trip/disarm and want to hit with a weapon too, weapon finesse is the feat for you.
there's already a mix of "why would you ever take Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse??"
Fury's Fall comes into the same category. IF you already have one of those feats, it becomes a wasted feat.
weapon finesse already lets you replace your str with dex for trip maneuvers and attack rolls, but you need a finesse weapon ( plenty of which have trip, which isn't even entirely necessary, just if you wanna drop it on a failover ), agile maneuvers lets you trip with any weapon regardless of finesse, so there is a lot of overlap, but there's room for someone to see a benefit to them ( tripping with a polearm ) and take Agile Maneuvers instead. they probably still won't take both feats. The same is likely to hold true with Fury's Fall after any developer clarification.
Does anyone really think they'll start loading the game up with feats that encourage SAD builds? if anything they'll clarify that yes a Dexterity Bonus is a bonus typed as dexterity and won't apply twice. Otherwise why not just have a feat Angry Fury's Fall that lets you add STR modifier to trip attacks with no restrictions and lets someone with a +5 strength modifier ( since they can dump dex now ) add that twice to trip attacks? oh maybe because its bad and not on par with any of the other feats.
In general any case of adding an additional stat to something in the game encourages even keeled stats ( like inquisitors monster lore, adding wis in addition to int to identify monsters. they don't just get to double their wis bonus and add that. they use two stats ).
