Let's say an elven couple lives in a human settlement and has a son, but when the boy is still little they both die due to a tragic accident.
Since no one knew any elven relatives of the parents, nor where they came from, or any other elves, the son is now raised by one of the humans in town.
It just seems odd to me that that elf would actually be the standard elf age when he starts a career in one of the PC classes, instead of starting it when he's in his 20s or 30s.
I get that "real elves" would probably laugh at him and view him as a child still, but when he waits till he's 120 years old, that would mean he probably saw the children of his 'siblings' die already and even their grandchildren have grandchildren by now.
Or do elves actually mature that much slower, either physically or mentally, that a 60 year old elf isn't any bigger, stronger or smarter than a 8 year old human?
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This is an interesting situation. I think that the elf would end up being "raised" by generations of his adopted family. I think an elf at the age of sixty really would be a child, both mentally and physically.
Children are often capable of astonishing things when they find themselves in extraordinary circumstances. Perhaps our hypothetical elf could be s first level character at a very young age. I can easily imagine such a character as a summoner, whose eidolon is a sort of surrogate parent.
"Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both 'no' and 'yes'".
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I personally like to think elves develop biologically and psychologically at a different rate to humans. Not that there's any specific rules justifications for it, but in my settings elf gestation takes a full calendar year, and physical maturation takes around thirty. Psychological development is much slower, such that it's rare for them to overcome the impulsive and careless behaviours one would associate with human teens before the age of eighty. I think it makes sense to me that a mind that can last multiple centuries probably develops at a slower pace.
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An elf raised by human could possibly start adventuring before 100. But, he should also lose the elf weapon proficiencies. Thats something that is learned, not innate. If he isn't raised the elven way, he shouldn't learn the elven stuff.
Similarly, a dwarf raised among humans shouldn't gain the Hatred, Defensive Training, and Weapon Familiarity abilities, as they are learned as well.
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As far as I know, Golarion elves learn and mature incredibly slowly, resulting in a child that's still a child for nigh a hundred years, raised by generations of humans.
As far as I know, Golarion elves learn and mature incredibly slowly, resulting in a child that's still a child for nigh a hundred years, raised by generations of humans.
The problem is I can't actually remember reading about something like that at all.
By other players who follow thejeff's "literal interpretation" more closely of course, but not by anything official yet.
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okay let's look at it as if it were a human. Would you expect a 10 year old to start a PC career?
Elves mature at a slower rate than humans.
I know lots of people gripe and complain that it doesn't make any sense.
But let's look at the real world for examples. Nearly all wild animals mature to breeding ability in one to two years. It takes humans about ten years or more.
Most animals are walking and running within minutes, days, or weeks of being born. It takes humans two years or more.
Gee that doesn't make sense. Let me see the Rule Book and change that!
A 100 year old elf is about the same maturity level as a 20 year old human. Who raises him does not matter and can not change the rate at which his body matures. Try as you might you can't force someone's body to grow up faster.
This DOES present an interesting problem though. Since it takes the elf 100 years to actually physically mature, and he is being raised by humans, we must consider his foster parents. So during his young formative years, his foster parents die, his foster siblings die, and finally his foster nephews and nieces finish raising him. So yeah, he'd be messed up most likely.
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I like to think of it as the same way the Forgotten Realms Elves/Drow were depicted. They grew physically at the same rate as humans, and psychologically slightly slower. Ex: Drizzt was physically mature at 19, but he still seemed like a confused 17 year old at almost 30 years of age. Mature enough to survive in human society and as an adventurer, and somewhat world wise, but still very bound to and ruled by his emotions.
Well Krome the problem is this, and I think thats the point where people think it stops making sense:
Let's say for a moment Elves actually need those 110 years to really physically and mentally reach the adult age, while humans do it in 15 (that's their respective starting ages)
Now, a human takes just a few years to study enough magic to become a 1st level wizard. He's between 17 and 27 by that time, so he studied for between 2 and 12 years ...
An elf, the supposedly magically affinity race with Int bonus, needs to study for a lot longer for the same benefit. He would be between 120 and 170!! So that means even if by 110 he was at the same stage as the 15 year old human it now takes him 10 to 60 years to learn the same stuff!
Even if he's the fastest learning elf, and does it in 10, he's still slower than the average human, and only a tiny bit faster than the slowest of them!
And then suddenly, they both start progressing at the same rate. Does that really make sense?
And part of my original question above is just that: Do elves actually mature that much slower than humans? Or is it merely a cultural thing?
The same as humans might be physically mature at 13 and stop growing (heck there was an 11 year old girl pregnant somewhere just a few years ago) but need to wait till 21 till they're "mature enough" to drink or do other things in some parts of the world?
So as Rynjin says, could an Elf be physically be grown up at 20 or 30? Mentally he might still be a young teen, but that doesn't stop him from persuing some career paths.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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This DOES present an interesting problem though. Since it takes the elf 100 years to actually physically mature, and he is being raised by humans, we must consider his foster parents. So during his young formative years, his foster parents die, his foster siblings die, and finally his foster nephews and nieces finish raising him. So yeah, he'd be messed up most likely.
This is, IIRC, the stated reason why in PF elves raised by non-elves are referred to as "forlorn" elves, and are generally pitied by other elves.
That's one heck of a family heirloom. I imagine in city orphanages there could be resident elves that have stayed the same age while two or three generations of humans have passed them by.
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In the end it probably depends on what type of world you're going for.
In a world where Physical and Emotional maturity is 10x slower than a human's then you're going to see Elves that require generations of humans to raise.
In a world where only Physical Maturity is 10x slower than a Human's then you'll get situations where 18 year old "fully matured" children are prancing around casting fireball at dragons. (Look out Anime)
ANd in a world where only emotional maturity is 10x slower than you're going to see fully grown adult elves who can't change their own diapers.
I think dramatic prose might suggest the first. But that's only because most elves wouldn't stop "studying" until after they'd reached maturity. Which is why you see most elves being master magicians. They've studied magic for 3 to 4 times as long as most humans. But in play that doesn't really stand out.
And alternatively you could say that elves in the world are patient and take their time with things. Where as humans go willy nilly into danger looking for power and prestige. Casting those spells that they haven't quite mastered yet so they can gain "POWER OVERWHELMING". I guess take your pick?
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I think the default assumption is were physical and emotional maturity are tied together about like they are in humans and the whole process taking 10x times longer than humans. This is where the idea of the Forlorn elves comes from. As said, it's a hell of a childhood if you're among humans.
As for how this melds with elves and humans having similar advancement rates in game, I see as having a lot to do with racial mindset and brain functionality. Adventures advance quickly because they place themselves in situations where they have to improve quickly or die. They actively push their boundaries, which is why they are higher level than most npcs. Humans are to elves as adventures are to npcs. Also, perhaps elves brains absorb data slower than humans, but retain it longer. It may take an elf forty years to finish university, but he'll remember it for the next thousand years, while his human classmate finish the degree in four but forget everything by forty.
I see goblins as like this for humans. Adult at 5, wizard by 10, but who knows if he even remembers what his name is?
This leads me to some interesting thoughts for how these races would function in modern society. Elves would make for good math teachers, it doesn't change and they have literally heard every question you can think of. Goblins, assuming you overcome their reading taboo and attention span, would make amazing programmers, or disposable grad students.
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Here is my take:
A humanoid that grew that slow, would also heal that slow (metabolic rate and all)
I think elves are physically mature at 20, BUT, they are like vulcans, OVER indulgent in senses, care free , wanderlust, HUGE highs, MEGA lows, manic depressive and DANGEROUS. Like full grown 5 year olds.
the reason why elves (in my opinion) take 100 years to leave home is because, if left to their own devices, and not gone through proper training and control, everyone one of them would be Chaotic Evil, bent on one thing, a never ending desire to experience.
Sex wouldnt be sex, It would be MASS Orgy, S&M. Eating wouldnt be eating, it would be gorging, puking it all up and gorging more. and if one got angry??? forget about it.
They would all just spontaneously combust into Drow. IMO.
The elves have lived for ages with their deep dark secret, it takes 100 years just to let a youngling out into the world.....safely.
edit: following that idea there would be two ways to play this. Build a Drow with no light blindness, darkvision or spell like abilities (the darklands are responsible for that, ages of exposure etc)
Or the human raised elf starts at age 35. BUT has a deep dark past, like an immortal child from Twilight. went on a rampage as a kiddo. The humans, decided to hide or help come together to train the young elf (excellent backstory for a Barbarian or an inquisitor)
OR the elf had some major divine intervention, he's a cleric or a paladin or oracle, that had an 'otherworldly' experience that kept him from going off the deep end.
And possibly, a neutralish human raised elf would have gone on a bender as a youth, and barely escaped the lynch mob and left home at an early age, scared by life alone int he wilderness and the haunting of his past misdeeds against those who raised him, he constantly fights the urge to explode and devour all sensory indulgence. Play him like a struggling alcoholic....
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So a young Elf is a Chaotic Evil Barbarian? Makes sense.
My Elves: Physically they grow fast but Mentally they grow slowly.
If raised by humans:
They normally would end up being Raised by 2-4 Generations of Humans/Half-Elves not just a single set. Though they tend to develop some sort of complex. Most of them as adolescents tend to be adventurous and mischievous but rarely destructive on purpose. So as younglings they act like the Village Idiot and might be emotional. Adolescents will be more of the Village Jester/Class Clown. Basically, younglings will be Low INT/WIS Barbarians while adolescents will be mid INT/WIS Bards.
What about the opposite? What if I wanted to play a 5 year old Human raised by Elves? Would I still get my Bonus Feat?
While not RAW I would say any creature that is adventuring younger than the youngest number available to their class+Race would get the Young template (in addition to whatever else would change because of societal upbringing such as racial trait changes,ect).
Any Elf that is adventuring before 100 would get the young template, period, either because of physical or mental immaturity.
or the DROW template.... muahahaha!
That sure would mess you up, an eternal boy over five generations.
I've heard it argued that no, they should be able to get stuck in when they are not mature by the rules, but the rules are clear. They aren't adults until a specific time.
Although I generally loathe child heroes, the two party members both recently took on an apprentice each (humans, ninja and monk) and have been dragging these 12 year olds all over with them. Dragged them into combats, been teaching them the way of the classes, finally got them their first level, then rapidly levelled them up, they are level 6 now. At 12... They are still small size though.
I didn't ask for this!
So, here's what JJ replied to this in the "Ask JJ thread":
This actually just came up in one of my games:
Do elves in Golarion actually mature at a 7 times slower rate than humans? (110 years vs 15 years starting age)
In other words would a 60 year old elf be the physical and mental equivalent of a 8 year old human?Or do they age roughly the same (maybe 10/20 years slower) but then it's more a cultural thing till the elven society thinks they're ready?
I actually made another thread about this here:
Would an elf raised by humans be 100+ years when he starts adventuring?I can't recall if we've talked about this in Elves of Golarion or somewhere like that, but if I recall correctly, elves mature to "teenage" years slower than humans, but faster than any other time in their lives, then slow down progressively as they grow older, so that they actually spend several decades as "teens". As they grow older, they don't get all wrinkly; they just grow more thin and fragile looking.
Elves raised in human societies are known as the Forlorn, because it really depresses you to watch your childhood friends grow old and die of old age before you even hit puberty.
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That sure would mess you up, an eternal boy over five generations.
I've heard it argued that no, they should be able to get stuck in when they are not mature by the rules, but the rules are clear. They aren't adults until a specific time.
Although I generally loathe child heroes, the two party members both recently took on an apprentice each (humans, ninja and monk) and have been dragging these 12 year olds all over with them. Dragged them into combats, been teaching them the way of the classes, finally got them their first level, then rapidly levelled them up, they are level 6 now. At 12... They are still small size though.
I didn't ask for this!
Food for thought: human children hit 4' (medium size) around age 8/9 years old. I counter this by giving them "weak build" as opposed to powerful build so they have to use small sized weapons.
Food for thought: human children hit 4' (medium size) around age 8/9 years old. I counter this by giving them "weak build" as opposed to powerful build so they have to use small sized weapons.That sure would mess you up, an eternal boy over five generations.
I've heard it argued that no, they should be able to get stuck in when they are not mature by the rules, but the rules are clear. They aren't adults until a specific time.
Although I generally loathe child heroes, the two party members both recently took on an apprentice each (humans, ninja and monk) and have been dragging these 12 year olds all over with them. Dragged them into combats, been teaching them the way of the classes, finally got them their first level, then rapidly levelled them up, they are level 6 now. At 12... They are still small size though.
I didn't ask for this!
Very medieval nutrition levels to consider here. The child adventurers actually have a rather interesting backstory before they encountered the party and were whisked away. They are still small because they have had terrible nutrition for their 12 years, scavenging on a desolate mountain of sharp rocks: living off bugs, rat, pooled rain water, weeds.
If they get a year of good food into them, they will make it to medium.
To reply to an earlier point. If an elf took ten times as long as humans to get to maturity and to develop magic power, then does it make sense that they start adventuring and then develop just as equally as humans?
Of course it does. Once the brain has finished forming, once the hormones have settled etc, of course they would be comparable. It takes them longer to mature to the point where their development and our development is equal, and then we die and they keep on kicking. It is a trade off.
When my players want to play child characters, I say -2 Str, Con, and Int, +2 Dex and Cha, plus their normal racial modifiers, size category depends on the exact age. A child should be strictly weaker than an adult, but my players arem ore concerned with roleplaying, so they never have a problem.
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This discussion is what happens when we try to make sense out of nonsense. Everything works perfectly fine if you just don't think about it.
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why would a child have more cha? makes no sense for kids to be more persuasive or intimidating or convincing....
why would a child have more cha? makes no sense for kids to be more persuasive or intimidating or convincing....
They're cute, people are more likely to give in to the cuteness.
Should really be more of a "+5 Diplomacy, -5 Intimidate" kinda thing though.
why would a child have more cha? makes no sense for kids to be more persuasive or intimidating or convincing....
They're cute, people are more likely to give in to the cuteness.
Should really be more of a "+5 Diplomacy, -5 Intimidate" kinda thing though.
B*!#!&!s, some people don't buy that they are cute at all. +5 diplomacy? That is a huge boost for children just starting out in manipulation and persuasion. A person who went through childhood and is on the other side does not get a +5.
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Think about this plot hook.
A remote elven village, that has a vampire, that has chosen to feed on all the elven adults in that village, leaving elf children unparented. Uninterested in feeding on the elf children, he focuses somewhere else on another population....
Lord of the flies elven style!
A whole village a prepubescent spontaneously spawning surface drow spilling over into your nearby human community with their preteen temper tantrums!
Level 1 characters GO!
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B****@&s, some people don't buy that they are cute at all. +5 diplomacy? That is a huge boost for children just starting out in manipulation and persuasion. A person who went through childhood and is on the other side does not get a +5.
I don't mean literally a +5. 5 is just a nice easy number to type.
I can't remember where I read this, or what world it was tied too (probably home brewed) But it was the one that made the most sense to me;
Elves reach physical sexual maturity at a slightly lower rate then humans (humans hitting it around 12-15 (wikipedia), while the elves hit sexual maturity at around 25-32) At this point they are no longer children, but teenagers. It is then that the elven studies of art, music, war (the weapon traits) and magic. Once ALL of these basic studies are completed (elven common knowledge) they then branch out their studies into specialized fields (classes) Because of the way they are raised for those 80 odd years they STUDY hard, mastering theory before action.
An Elf raised by humans would physically mature slower then those around him, but mentally they would be the same age, due to being taught like a human (do this, and if it works, keep doing it) versus the ways of the elf (want to do this? spend 20 hours planning EVERY POSSIBLE OUTCOME and then take the best one)
Think about this plot hook.
A remote elven village, that has a vampire, that has chosen to feed on all the elven adults in that village, leaving elf children unparented. Uninterested in feeding on the elf children, he focuses somewhere else on another population....
Lord of the flies elven style!
A whole village a prepubescent spontaneously spawning surface drow spilling over into your nearby human community with their preteen temper tantrums!
Level 1 characters GO!
I hate you right now...
Studying hard doesn't work with the fickle dabbling so common in elven culture, a trait so quintessentially elven.
Maturity in any fashion at 25-32 is a far cry from 100+ years. Please consult the age tables.
Studying hard doesn't work with the fickle dabbling so common in elven culture, a trait so quintessentially elven.
Maturity in any fashion at 25-32 is a far cry from 100+ years. Please consult the age tables.
when your maximum age is 354-750 (350+ 4 percentile) you are not in any hurry to make yourself dead by doing something wrong. Meanwhile the OLDEST a human can live is 110. You tend to live in the moment when you know your not going to live long. So a Elf raised by humans would be about as mentally mature as the humans, for he was taught and raised to be in the moment and to not really dabble to long on choices.
As for the physical maturity, I don't care how long lived elves are, if it takes longer then 40 years for them to be of breeding age then they are a doomed species.
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There was a variant of age rules in regards to how quickly elves mature. I think it was in masters of the wild. Put the starting age earlier by a number of decades. I thought about it for a bit. Only to be interrupted by the owner of the book tearing out the relevant pages.
I thought about it for a bit. Only to be interrupted by the owner of the book tearing out the relevant pages.
What!? Really!? That is an elven style tantrum.
Anyone ever notice that Dhampir have the same starting age....
This is one of the cases where I think the young creature simple template doesn't accurately depict a young creature. There should also be a -2 to Int and Wis, with a +2 to Dex, and maybe a +2 to Cha. After all, most children are nimble, most cute, and the vast majority lack learning and understanding.
Just my 2 coppers.
Kids might be cute but most of them are real jerks, too. So I would rather give them a penalty on charisma not a bonus. Perhaps an additional ability to give them a bonus on cha checks vs their parents.
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This topic looks like it may have quite an impact on my Elf Wizard. His background (mostly to easily introduce him in the middle of ad adventure in Council of Thieves) is that he was captured and enslaved by Cheliax nobility when he was young, and after years of abuse he was sold and trained as a wizard's apprentice, and became a promising Conjurer. (Then he wanted out, snuck around a mansion he was visiting, ran into the PCs and decided to join them and escape.)
But how does that work for an elf? If it takes 80 years to go from child to adult, no Cheliax nobleman is going to wait for that. Should he have been (almost) adult when he was abducted? I do like the idea of him having a very twisted idea of what elven culture and values are like.
On kids: Charisma is not a measure of cuteness, it's confidence, persuasiveness, empathy. Nothing kids are any good at. Cuteness is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Sure, you can give them circumstance bonuses in specific situations (kids can make very effective beggars, for example), but it's not something innate. I'd rather give them a penalty to Charisma.
What about if elfs mature only a little bit slower than humans but their society and culture is so complex that it takes 100 year to be considered adult by their standards? This will also explain why humans are sometimes seen as uneducated when they encounter an elf village.
So if he get raised by humans it will take a couple of years (maybe around 5 or ten more but not 100) above the average human to be considered an adult by a human society but he will still be a child by elf standards and will lack any elf proficiency.