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Anything that replaces wild shape in druids, or diminishes it.
The one nice thing about it is that it basically makes anything that has it becomes a "I do not need to memorize this archetype's abilities, because nobody will ever use it!" type of archetype. Given that most druid archetypes leave smudges on their crown jewel ability, it means that I can commit to remembering details about domain powers, animal companions and how wildshape works instead of all the crap archetypes.
It can have uses if you are leaving the game table forever
Why would one character using that ability remove you from the table? Just bring in another character.
Not sure if these would rate as the worst but certainly they can be classified as pretty horrible.
Careful Teamwork for the Detective archetype. I mean what's the bard supposed to do to make this useful, burn off 3 rounds of bardic performance every hour? It might be acceptable as a replacement for inspire competence but very underwhelming for a replacement of inspire courage.
I also don't like Stealspell for the Sandman archetype. Attacking the will saves of spell casters, opt to either get something random or risk getting nothing at all. I feel like this may be an ability that is fun when it works at low levels but probably gets close to useless at higher levels.
And not actually an archetype feature but an optional class feature, the discussion about the monk's vow of poverty inspired me to give it honourable mention in this thread.
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Ok, I agree. That is a worst ability than voices of the spheres.
Don't forget the capstone. You can completely erase yourself from having ever existed permanently. Yay?
Agreed.
To be fair, by erasing yourself, you also cast True Ressurection on all allies in a 50ft emanation.
No limit on the number of fallen allies, and it's just a standart action.Sure, the character can't ever be brought back, not even with wish/miracle, his name can't be spoken anymore (let's ignore all problems with that) and every written instance of his name becomes a blank space, so for the character himself it's pretty bad. But it can have its uses.
Yes, you can use it to reverse the TPK caused by you taking a really weak archetype of a really weak class into the game.
While we're on the monk at this point: Vow of Poverty - Exchange the entirety of your access to WBL in exchange for 1 ki point per monk level. You don't even get ki until you're level four, when people are desperately scrambling for boosting magic items.
That could work in a low-magic campaign, though, on a quingong monk where you can use it to get a lot of uses of some nice powers that could make up for rare magic items.
Ah, who am I kidding, it sucks.
I have just invented a new Law of Pathfinder: No matter how bad you think a class, archetype, or ability is for any other class, somewhere there will be monk archetype or ability that is worse.
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My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named Asmodeus/Sarenrae/[insert deity of choice here].My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named 'The.'Please. You can manage intelligibility without articles.
My 20th level Healing Hand monk is named 'Be.' He's an identical triplet. His brothers are 'Being' and 'Been.'
My 20th level Healing Hand monk is named Marklar.
My 20th level Healing Hand monk is named Marklar.My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named Asmodeus/Sarenrae/[insert deity of choice here].My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named 'The.'Please. You can manage intelligibility without articles.
My 20th level Healing Hand monk is named 'Be.' He's an identical triplet. His brothers are 'Being' and 'Been.'
I actually played with a character named Marklar once. He was an evil elven arcane archer and worshiped Malar. (Forgotten Realms and this was nine years ago.)
This discussion kind of makes me want to play some of these archetypes just to try them out.
Geisha bards tea ceremony, to get it for 4 of your friends you need to expend 16 turns of bardic song, the cermoney takes 10 mins and the duration is also 10 mins, so by the time you finish half of your party has lost the buffs, by the time you get an encounter the other half may have lost the buff as well.
The archetype is also terrible since it loses armor proficency and the ability to cast in armor for craft scroll, yeah that 4 feats for 1 feat, holy trades batman
Tea Ceremony takes nothing: it's just a different way to give the buff, that can be usefull in some situation (before a gladiator pit, before negociation, before infiltration...). And I don't see why you can't make the tea for all your team at the same time, then go rampaging a dungeon for 10 minutes.
For the rest: the armor proficiency just take 3 to her AC (so don't play a front line bard and you will be okay), andd you get to be a god caster with craft scroll so no, it's not as bad as it looks.
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Geisha bards tea ceremony, to get it for 4 of your friends you need to expend 16 turns of bardic song, the cermoney takes 10 mins and the duration is also 10 mins, so by the time you finish half of your party has lost the buffs, by the time you get an encounter the other half may have lost the buff as well.
The archetype is also terrible since it loses armor proficency and the ability to cast in armor for craft scroll, yeah that 4 feats for 1 feat, holy trades batman
Tea Ceremony takes nothing: it's just a different way to give the buff, that can be usefull in some situation (before a gladiator pit, before negociation, before infiltration...). And I don't see why you can't make the tea for all your team at the same time, then go rampaging a dungeon for 10 minutes.
For the rest: the armor proficiency just take 3 to her AC (so don't play a front line bard and you will be okay), andd you get to be a god caster with craft scroll so no, it's not as bad as it looks.
Well I may be biased but my advenutres usually take more than 10 mins. I guess it could work if you are on a coliseum and you get 4 encounters on a row or something like that, but... why? its better to use bardic song anyway
You also lose the ability to cast in armor, so its just not "3 ac" actually. Craft scroll can be taken as a feat its doesnt even have that many requirements.
RAW, Tea Ceremony has no stated range, and it doesn't require that your allies participate, merely that you have to make tea on their behalf. So your Geisha ally could be sitting at home in Minkai or wherever while you enjoy the buffs in the dungeon. Just sayin'.
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According to my very on the fly calculations, a Geisha Bard with nothing in mind but maxing the number of performance rounds she has can get 120 @ lvl 20, allowing her to give 30 people inspire courage at once.
20 point buy (allowing buying down down to 7 and up to 18, age penalties/bonuses and all the items) ends up being:
STR: 1
DEX: 1
CON: 10
INT: 20
WIS: 19
CHA: 34
She takes Extra Performance for every feat including human bonus feat.
I'd like if an order of Hellknights or someone had an old Geisha Grammy who beefed them up before they teleported into the fray. Of course, she'd have to use a lighter-than-air tea set so her stick arms don't crack in half.
Well, she is Venerable. I forgot to include a belt of physical perfection, though, so you can bump those up to 7.
Strength and Dexterity of 1? This Geisha must be the thinnest, clumsiest, foot-binded person to ever walk the planet.
And yes, Foot-Binding is a predominantly Chinese practice while the Geisha is Japanese. That's part of the joke.
Remember that she's taking a -6 to those scores due to age. Her scores while young would be
STR: 7DEX: 7
CON: 16 (I'm assuming belt is here)
INT: 17
WIS: 16
CHA: 31 (20 base, +5 from level, +6 from headband)
Well I may be biased but my advenutres usually take more than 10 mins. I guess it could work if you are on a coliseum and you get 4 encounters on a row or something like that, but... why? its better to use bardic song anyway
You also lose the ability to cast in armor, so its just not "3 ac" actually. Craft scroll can be taken as a feat its doesnt even have that many requirements.
It's not common, but it may happen. And no, it's more usefull than a normal bardic song in those condition: even if you get silenced/blinded/ kill, the effect still continue and I do think that you may give different performance to each membre (like inspire greatness to the caster, inspire courage to the fighter...)
And no, it is 3 ac: you still get 2 armors (silken ceremonial and belly warmer) for +1, so if you don't count shield you are only 3 ac behind a normal bard (which is not that hard for a ranger character).
Finally, true you can get scribe scroll as a feat. But Bard are quite feat starved at low level, so a ''free feat'' is not really bad in my opinion.
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I think people forget that it requires access to a domain or mystery. They just remember the 2nd lv divine spells part.How would a paladin that needs divine grace (for example an empyral knight) pick up divine protection?
The only way i can think of is for the paladin to dip one level to inquisitor/warpriest/cleric/oracle.
Sacred Servant archetype gets a domain, but it's incompatible with Empyreal Knight because they both alter/replace Divine Bond. Works with the Oath against Savagery or Sword of Valour, though.
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No one is saying that the Archeologist is useless. The archtypes luck ability could be changed to one extra performance per level. Even with a 18 Cha and Extra Performance. That comes out to fourteen rounds up until level 20. Not enough imo. As well Extra Perfromance while useful is not worth taking more than once imo.
Sure if a person takes the feat. Fates favored and Someone else takes a Bard. Too many ifs imo. Not everyone has or uses system madrery. I'm playing one but only because it's better than a Rogue and the group I'm playing in needs someone with Trapfinding. Otherwise regular Bard for me.
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No one is saying that the Archeologist is useless. The archtypes luck ability could be changed to one extra performance per level. Even with a 18 Cha and Extra Performance. That comes out to fourteen rounds up until level 20. Not enough imo. As well Extra Perfromance while useful is not worth taking more than once imo.
Sure if a person takes the feat. Fates favored and Someone else takes a Bard. Too many ifs imo. Not everyone has or uses system madrery. I'm playing one but only because it's better than a Rogue and the group I'm playing in needs someone with Trapfinding. Otherwise regular Bard for me.
You're forgetting Lingering Performance. Which makes it viable at 18-24 rounds (depending on Charisma) from level 1 onward.
All you really need is Lingering Performance, though Fate's Favored makes it miles better. those two are all you require.
While the extra performance per level would be nice, the archetype is fine as it stands. Many classes and archetypes have a feat tax so having to pick up lingering performance for an archeologist is not really that bad.
BTW, Disclaimer: I might look like I'm ranting, but it's just my opinion on some rather poorly designed abilities.
Some others:
Summoner - Synthesist
Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist's movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon's senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon's actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon's temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the class's eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
The following class abilities function differently for synthesist summoners.
Emphasis mine... because this becomes problematic:
Split Forms (Su): At 16th level, as a swift action, the synthesist and his fused eidolon can split into two creatures: the synthesist and the eidolon. Both have the same evolutions. The synthesist emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon.
The synthesist can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his summoner level. He can end this effect at any time as a full-round action. For the duration of this effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the summoner's class level. This ability replaces merge forms.
So basically... the eidolon, when separated, has ZERO skill ranks and ZERO feats...
Honestly, I fail to understand why fusing with the eidolon DOESN'T get you bonus ranks and bonus feats... which are all given to the split eidolon.
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Summoner - Broodmaster
Eidolon Brood: At 2nd level, instead of a single eidolon, a broodmaster summons two Small eidolons to his side, each less powerful than the single eidolon of a standard summoner. Each eidolon has it own base form and associated base statistics and free evolutions. Regardless of the number of eidolons in the brood, each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses, but the rest of the eidolons' base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks. Individual eidolons in the brood must purchase evolutions separately. Once a broodmaster decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons, they cannot be changed until the summoner gains a level.
In other words, your eidolons are downright useless... Would have been MUCH better if the summoner add to decide the actual level of each eidolons. For instance, a 10th-level broodmaster could have 1 10th-level eidolon, 2 5th-level eidolons, 1 8th-level and 1 2nd-level eidolons, and so forth.
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Magus - Spellblade
Force Athame (Sp): At 2nd level, a spellblade magus can sacrifice a prepared magus spell of 1st level or higher as a swift action to create a dagger of force in his off hand. The athame lasts for 1 minute or until dismissed, has an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the level of the spell sacrificed (maximum +5), and is considered a weapon the spellblade is holding for purposes of his arcane pool feature (using the pool to add abilities to a held weapon applies to the magus's physical weapon and to the athame for no additional cost). The athame acts as a dagger, but the hand holding it is still considered free for the purpose of casting spells and delivering touch attacks. The magus can use the athame as if he were fighting with two weapons, or can use that hand to cast spells as part of the spell combat class ability (but not both in the same round). Attacks with the athame are force attacks and deal force damage. This ability replaces the spellstrike class feature.
Honestly, the whole idea of having a ghostly dagger while expanding a prepared spell is kinda... dumb. The damage remains fixed, the duration is too short, and the magus is kinda ill-fitted for TWF anyway. Maybe is the duration lasted 10 minutes per spell used, and the damage increased depending on the spell level, like 1st = 1d4 / 2nd-3rd = 1d6 / 4th-5th = 1d8 / 6th = 1d10. Furthermore, the fact that you cannot make an athame attack PLUS spell combat in the same round, sorta defeats the whole purpose.
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Monk - Quinggong Master
Ki Power: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
The whole thing is confusing, because some powers require a level that doesn't correspond to the traded ability, not to mention that this archetype has been abandonned when the new sources came out, as we have no rule of thumb to add new spells/feats to the list.
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Bard - Sound Striker
Bardic Performance: A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.
Wordstrike (Su): At 3rd level, the sound striker bard can spend 1 round of bardic performance as a standard action to direct a burst of sonically charged words at a creature or object. This performance deals 1d4 points of damage plus the bard's level to an object, or half this damage to a living creature. This performance replaces inspire competence.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.
That could have been combined into a single power for starters. Weird Words could have been a single use of Bardic Performance, for a multi-hitting power, either on a single target, or divided into mutliple ones.
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Monk - Student of Stone
Strength of Stone (Ex): At 3rd level, a student of stone learns to draw strength from the earth. So long as both he and his opponent are touching the ground, the student of stone gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, bull rush and trip combat maneuver rolls, and to his CMD when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt. This ability replaces fast movement.
Here's the problem: it doesn't scale like Fast Movement, so you basically trade 60 feet of speed... for a +1 bonus. Yeah... That should have been that you add a bonus equal to your monk level.
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Arcanist - Blade Adept
I'm... tempted to add every single ability for this one, because the archetype misses one crucial goal: to be effective with the blade. Yeah, where's the ability to treat your BAB the same as your caster level? Don't give me the "that would have been broken" excuse. If you have a martial-oriented arcane spellcaster, make sure that it can actually HIT things with weapons.
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Cavalier - Beast Rider
Exotic Mount (Ex): At 1st level, a beast rider forms a bond with a strong, loyal companion that permits him to ride it as a mount. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the beast rider's level as his effective druid level. The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).
I... don't understand the concept here. The GM can allow other creatures as suitable mounts for the regular cavalier anyway. The only benefit is the make a bear or wolverine... Large... which could have been made into a feat. Not really worth trading over heavy armor proficiency IMO.
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Swashbuckler - Picaroon
Deeds: The picaroon gains the following deeds, each of which replaces an existing deed.
Melee Shooter (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action when wielding both a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon and a one-handed firearm, the picaroon can spend 1 panache point to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity with the first ranged attack made by the one-handed firearm during her turn. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
Kinda pointless if you take the Sword and Pistol feat...
That's all I could find after some research...
My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named Asmodeus/Sarenrae/[insert deity of choice here].My lvl20 Healing Hand Monk is named 'The.'
well mine was named Rogue... At leas he was untill i killed him off while we had a ______ in the party >_>
[/bad-joke]Anyways, anyone remember the Totem warrior? While it wasnt the worst archetype out there (it didnt penalize you) it did nothing :(
Also some of the Wizard archetypes are pretty bad. Loosing 4 schools of magic is harsh.
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Hey, Spellslinger is pretty good... if you take the next 19 levels in a different spellcasting class.
Hey, Spellslinger is pretty good... if you take the next 19 levels in a different spellcasting class.
Congratulations, you broke my sarcasm detector...
3 schools MAX would have been better for it.
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Isn't the point of the arcanist blade adept to go into eldritch knight?
Isn't the point of the arcanist blade adept to go into eldritch knight?
You still need at least one level in a suitable martial class because the PrC requires you to be proficient in all martial weapons; the blade adept only grants you one proficiency.
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Isn't the point of the arcanist blade adept to go into eldritch knight?Yep. It works well, too. At least in theory.Except that it works better with a Scryer Wizard.
Because everybody knows that the guy hunched over a crystal ball is really an /awesome/ swordsman.
If you ever read Benedict Jacka's Alex Verus series, you would see an example of how divination could absolutely make you an awesome fighter.
Isn't the point of the arcanist blade adept to go into eldritch knight?Yep. It works well, too. At least in theory.
I'm not seeing it. What does the archetype have over a standard diviner -> EK build? It is a spell level behind and gains... The black blade, which is of dubious benefit anyway. I guess it is probably better in low WBL games?
Isn't the point of the arcanist blade adept to go into eldritch knight?You still need at least one level in a suitable martial class because the PrC requires you to be proficient in all martial weapons; the blade adept only grants you one proficiency.
true, i kinda like the idea of using the dex based mutagen from mutation warrior with it.
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Isn't the point of the arcanist blade adept to go into eldritch knight?You still need at least one level in a suitable martial class because the PrC requires you to be proficient in all martial weapons; the blade adept only grants you one proficiency.
True. That's true of everyone, though.
Except that it works better with a Scryer Wizard.
Because everybody knows that the guy hunched over a crystal ball is really an /awesome/ swordsman.
As mentioned, that has some thematic coolness to it, actually (the Alex Verus novels are indeed an excellent example of this...and the Scryer keeps Forewarned, which is the thematic one, it only loses Diviner's Fortune).
And yeah, you don't get early entry, sans race anyway, but it's solid as non early entry builds go. Which is admittedly mostly at high levels, but still potentially fun. It's very good if your GM isn't allowing early entry.
I'm not seeing it. What does the archetype have over a standard diviner -> EK build? It is a spell level behind and gains... The black blade, which is of dubious benefit anyway. I guess it is probably better in low WBL games?
The ability to burn Feats on Magus Arcana (via Extra Arcane Exploit). Several of those are quite worth it. The Black Blade's a pretty cool thing to get as well.
Not worth giving up early entry, but if you have a racial SLA or other method of early entry, or early entry is disallowed, it's solid.
Couldnt a racial sla net you full CL for black blade progression with the exploit?
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If you're locked out of early entry it might be worthwhile, but otherwise... not really, even if you had the SLA, because the SLA only saves them one level instead of the Wizard's four (here's looking at you, Eldritch Blade).
This is true. Like I said, it's not worth skipping early entry. But with a racial SLA or in a game forbidding it...
Admittedly the Blade Adept could make for a decent gestalt gish, but for an EK it just takes too long and doesn't offer enough.
Arcane Accuracy alone is very nice.
No, it's your Arcanist caster level. Whenever a class feature talks about a caster level, assume it's referring to its own.
Huh? Eldritch Blade does almost precisely this.
The ability to burn Feats on Magus Arcana (via Extra Arcane Exploit). Several of those are quite worth it. The Black Blade's a pretty cool thing to get as well.Not worth giving up early entry, but if you have a racial SLA or other method of early entry, or early entry is disallowed, it's solid.
You can't take extra exploit until 5th level Arcanist, because the archetype replaces the 1st and 3rd level exploits. It forces late entry. Once you realise this, the archetype becomes almost worthless.
If early entry is disallowed, all options are extremely suboptimal and you should be avoiding EK in favour of magus, really.