Putting together a build that would require +4 bab... either weapon master 3/ranger 1 or weapon master 4. In your opinion, would you think the 1 level ranger dip that would grant a +2/+2 favored enemy (and also the option of favored defense) would be greater than the +1 feat that the 4th lv of weapon master would grant?
Weapon training 1 is granted by the 3rd lv of weapon master so the only benefit I see of the 4th lv is the free feat. Yes, I intend to gain the gloves of dueling.
I havent decided yet if the character will be non human or not but just assume he is non human and thus does not have the free racial human feat.
Character will be two weapon fighting.
This is an especially valid point given that you're already using the weapon master archetype. Weapon Spec makes sense.
Well with the Ranger dip you also get +2 fort save and +2 reflex save, vs just a +1 fort save with the 4th level of fighter.
You also gain the ability to use wands of spells on the Ranger spelllist, which are actually quite nice.
If doing a flat comparison between Weapon Specialization and Favored Enemy, I would say WS wins, unless you know you're playing in a campaign where one type of enemy is extremely common.
But considering the other bonuses you get from Ranger 1, it might be worth it.
Will the game forever be level 4, or will you eventually reach 5?
I would say straight Weapon Master. Though if you are TWF then Two-Weapon Warrior is slightly better for it.
It all depends on what you need the most. If you really are in need of utility, taking a level or two in Ranger may be a really good thing, considering you'll get some pretty immense saving throws, more class skills (and ranks for the levels), access to spells (and wands for those spells), the list goes on.
However, you sacrifice the promptness (and end-game) abilities of the main class you select, which can hurt you in some other areas, such as combat capability, survivability, etc. It all boils down to what you want to net in the long run, and having that utility and capability is a really neat thing if you don't plan to go all the way up to the end.
But it is what it is.
Well since you mentioned gloves of dueling it sounds like this character is going to keep going long past 4th level. So would this just be a 1 level ranger dip then fighter the rest of the way?
If you want to be a TWF Weapon master you'll using two of the same weapon, I guess. What will that be?
Both light weapons will mean less TWF penalties but low damage.
Two onehanded weapons will mean more TWF penalties but higher damage.
Or, if your GM allows that, you could take a light weapon and a large version of that light weapon for the main hand.
If you plan on using twi one-handed weapons I'd make a dwarf and use two dwarven waraxes. Their 1d10 damage is rather nice.
For every weapon doing at least 1d8 the ranger dip seems worth it because of the lead blades spell. For smaller weapons the spell is not as good.
If you want to be a TWF Weapon master you'll using two of the same weapon, I guess. What will that be?
Both light weapons will mean less TWF penalties but low damage.
Two onehanded weapons will mean more TWF penalties but higher damage.
Or, if your GM allows that, you could take a light weapon and a large version of that light weapon for the main hand.If you plan on using twi one-handed weapons I'd make a dwarf and use two dwarven waraxes. Their 1d10 damage is rather nice.
For every weapon doing at least 1d8 the ranger dip seems worth it because of the lead blades spell. For smaller weapons the spell is not as good.
TWF penalties do become non-existent when you get in the higher levels, and it allows you to use One-handed weapons as Light weapons for TWF penalties for the Two-Weapon Fighter archetype.
Weapon Master isn't bad once you get some feats in them.
can we see the rest of the build?
This is the idea...
rng 1 (favored enemy human) + 3 lvs weaponmaster (dagger)
or
4 lv weaponmaster (dagger)
then rogue (knife master)
As for the lead blades, on daggers that takes from 1d4 to 1d6...not much of a bonus.
The ftr/rng levels give +bab and + feats
leaning towards tiefling but may entertain human
Just skip Ranger and go Knife Master.
And why you need +4 in BAB?
Just to add some muscle to the rogue sluggish BAB
Now ranger gives access to Favored Defense feat...+2 ac as Dodge bonus. Thats nice against touch attacks which is really nice when you encounter nasty undead that you cant SA or that wizard that you failed to assassinate on that opening surprise round.
You are going to need more than one level of Ranger to get that +2 AC.
@Seranov: Thanks for making me think of Avatar/Legend Of Korra...
Unless you are fighting undead wizards that feat would not be much helpful.And why you need +4 in BAB?Just to add some muscle to the rogue sluggish BAB
Now ranger gives access to Favored Defense feat...+2 ac as Dodge bonus. Thats nice against touch attacks which is really nice when you encounter nasty undead that you cant SA or that wizard that you failed to assassinate on that opening surprise round.
Like a Lich?
Favored Defense adds HALF your FE bonus as dodge AC. So unless you take 5 levels of Ranger that will be a whopping +1 ... better take the Dodge feat if you really want it..
But your touch AC will eventually be so bad anyway that you get hit on a nat. 2, so usually not worth to buff that.
You are going to need more than one level of Ranger to get that +2 AC.
@Seranov: Thanks for making me think of Avatar/Legend Of Korra...
Actually, honestly, completely unintentional. Never even watched it.
Regardless, I think the 4 levels of Weapon Master are the way to go for this build.
It is more of a Joke a character in both series made.
And I agree Weapon Master is the way to go.
Undead aren't immune to Sneak Attack anymore, I believe.
And I don't think the Wizard is really going to have much trouble hitting you with something nasty. Stupid reality-benders...
I was thinking the incorporal ones like wraiths and spectres. Arent those still immune to SA?
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...Uhm, that's a good question. I suppose I'll go check the bestiary.
-e-
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/wraith.html#wraith
Doesn't look like it.
-double edit!-
Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.
I was wrong!
They are only immune to it if you don't have a Ghost Touch weapon.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Well with the Ranger dip you also get +2 fort save and +2 reflex save, vs just a +1 fort save with the 4th level of fighter.
You also gain the ability to use wands of spells on the Ranger spelllist, which are actually quite nice.
If doing a flat comparison between Weapon Specialization and Favored Enemy, I would say WS wins, unless you know you're playing in a campaign where one type of enemy is extremely common.
But considering the other bonuses you get from Ranger 1, it might be worth it.Will the game forever be level 4, or will you eventually reach 5?
I agree.
Also, for this kind of dip one should definitely take a good look at the guide archetype: it's +2/+2 one time against one enemy per day, instead of choosing a favored enemy. You loose the animal companion but you would not get it anyway with a single level dip.Weapon specialization is nice in general, but a build with knife master will not benefit much from another +2 to damage: I'd rather get a +2 to hit (in addition to +2 to damage) against that one though to hit enemy than a +2 to damage always on.
Going rogue would also mean that your fortitude saves will lag a bit, so another +2 from multiclassing (in addition to the +2 to reflex, nice for someone with evasion) would be nice.
can we see the rest of the build?This is the idea...
rng 1 (favored enemy human) + 3 lvs weaponmaster (dagger)
or
4 lv weaponmaster (dagger)
then rogue (knife master)
As for the lead blades, on daggers that takes from 1d4 to 1d6...not much of a bonus.
The ftr/rng levels give +bab and + feats
leaning towards tiefling but may entertain human
Lead blade on dager 1d4 19-20x2 is waste of time and spell slot. Do not make lead blades a factor in dager build.
You want to do damage...
Step 1) #of swing per round Haster, Combat Relfexs, Two-weapon fighing, Rapid shot, Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirl Wind ect.
Step 2) High BaB high Stat, class choice, feat magic items
Step 3) large Crital weapon choise,Range Feat or Maigc item
Step 4) BHD Big handfull of Dice size cahnge of you, of the weapon, sneak-attack, Magic Bane or elemental/ holy ect, Vital stirke.
Step 5) BFN Big Freaken Number you add to damage WS, hight stat, Class abilty, some other buff ect
The smaller the number in this list the more important it is.
If you are not planning to throw your daggers, Kukuri are great with the higher crit threat (18-20) and the rogue variant you are looking at works with them as well, but that is my two cp.