Its just how girls are sometimes...I've seen more males do this than females.
"Ladies love generalizations based on gender."
I have never seen a woman do this.
I have seen Manly Men do this constantly.
Then again I have never seen a woman who bought into the whole "Women only play Elves" cliche.
Most of the ones I play with prefer Dwarves...
In fact we are playing a Campaign that is pretty much 'The Hobbit' where all of the Dwarves are the Female Players of the group.
Exactly the types I've seen do it. A whole lot of talk outside the game, 180 inside. :DI have seen Manly Men do this constantly.
It is hilarious! It is also why I prefer playing Female Characters who are the BAMFs of the group to upstage the Manly Men who play the Non-Combatant Personnel Characters.
We once had a Football Player who rolled up a powerful Orc Barbarian I mean a 80+ PBS. He refused to willingly enter combat and when he did it was usually only til he could fall back to safety.
I was a Human Fighter with around a 75 PBS and I upstaged him in the game all the time.
And this was a Heroes Of Battle Campaign!
Brood Master can create some interesting Flanking situations. Surrounding someone on all 4 sides can be devastating.
don't choose summoner, choose sylvan sorcerer with boon companion. you still get a decent pet and more versatility in spells.
Brood Master can create some interesting Flanking situations. Surrounding someone on all 4 sides can be devastating.
Ooo! and tack on some teamwork feats!
Greg
Brood Master can create some interesting Flanking situations. Surrounding someone on all 4 sides can be devastating.
Yes, if you surround the enemy with four enemies that are marginally weaker then it that's great. If you surround an enemy with four enemeis tha tare vastly weaker than it that's a bad joke. Unfortunately that's what the broodmaster is.
Vanilla Summoner is just fine. You can do a massive amount of work with a plain boring summoner. You can be the groups main source of damage, it's control, its support. whatever you want to do the class can do it.
Brood Master can create some interesting Flanking situations. Surrounding someone on all 4 sides can be devastating.Ooo! and tack on some teamwork feats!
Greg
Meep...
And Broodmasters are powerful IF the Player knows how to use them.
Brood Master can create some interesting Flanking situations. Surrounding someone on all 4 sides can be devastating.Ooo! and tack on some teamwork feats!
Greg
Meep...
And Broodmasters are powerful IF the Player knows how to use them.
By not using them? I think the point made about using the Summon Monster SLA over the eidolons was a much more viable use of the archetype.
And yet my party has made better use of my Brood Master over my Normal or Master Summoner.
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And yet my party has made better use of my Brood Master over my Normal or Master Summoner.
That's nice.
And yet my party has made better use of my Brood Master over my Normal or Master Summoner.That's nice.
Good thing Pathfinder is a game of choice :)
Good thing Pathfinder is a game of choice :)And yet my party has made better use of my Brood Master over my Normal or Master Summoner.That's nice.
True.
I personally hate when people only view things in Numbers and how some people bash on things just because they don't live up to certain numbers. At least not without teamwork.
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Any reason you couldn't play another bard? Stat him out like a high str fighter, but don't dump cha and concentrate on skills you can use in combat, such as acrobatics and bluff.
Both you and the "pretend I'm not here" bard will have the same bardic performance abilities, but you'd use them. Talk the other bard into using hers a lot out of combat (mainly the fascinate/suggestion stuff) while you use Inspire Courage in combat.
Also slip a note to your GM that he should have a villain attempt to kidnap the other bard because she's acting like a helpless NPC the PC should try and rescue later. Also, start having the NPCs treat her as if she's a hireling instead of a member of the party. I don't know about anyone else, but all of my hirelings find something to hide behind and otherwise do nothing in combat.
If you can find or create a pair of Rings of Friend Shield, it might allow the current bard to participate in combat without actually doing anything.
Good thing Pathfinder is a game of choice :)And yet my party has made better use of my Brood Master over my Normal or Master Summoner.That's nice.
Meh. It's a non-statement. I could say my group does just fine without having any magic items and has made it all the way to level twenty without them, and, well that wouldn't prove anything without more info would it?
I personally hate when people only view things in Numbers and how some people bash on things just because they don't live up to certain numbers. At least not without teamwork.
And then another non-statement like this pops up.
Man it's a good thing you are giving good in game examples with hard facts of how you have mastered this archetype to actually make an argument rather than make blanket statements about teamwork that neither help the OP or prove your point.
Teamwork Feats and Tactical Placement. That is all it takes to make this archetype function.
It has been stated before.
The rogue seems willing to work with the OP. That would allow them to get it to work.
Teamwork Feats and Tactical Placement. That is all it takes to make this archetype function.
Alright now there's a start. But still a nonargument.
Now what levels are you making it work? How are you handling prerequisites when you have to split the feats? How many eidolons are you actually making use of? How are you getting good tactical placement over summoning a bunch of flying birds that pop instantly where and when you want them (including into flanking positions)? What team work feats are you going with? How are you handling the resource costs of having to keep your pack healed up? What was your party makeup like to make this work?
And ultimately why is this any better than a master summoner who can not only make tactical placement happen instantly but cater the creatures in question to fit the environment (two things that, yes, I've done to and had done to me with amazing effect on or against a master summoner).
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First step is to figure out what style of campaign you're expecting. If you're not going to see a lot of combat then the bard's sitting out won't be a problem. I played in one game where we spent a lot of time avoiding combat, and the pacifist character didn't feel out of place. He didn't have any buffs, but the GM often set it up such that there was a skill challenge for him when the rest of us did get into combat (for example, he'd drive the getaway vehicle while the rest of us fired on pursuers, or our job was to occupy the enemy while the pacifist completed some mission task).
If the game is going to be heavy on combat you could have one of two problems. First, the bard's player might get bored. Second, if the GM plans encounters assuming there are three characters participating in combat, you might find combat unusually dangerous. If you're concerned about either problem you should talk to your group.
A paladin, melee cleric or oracle, summoning caster, or druid would provide melee and other support. I'd avoid the paladin if you expect to need utility casting, but that depends on what sort of obstacles you expect and what sort of utility the bard and rogue are bringing to the table.
Two Eidolons. Both Quadrupedal. Most Teamwork feats didn't have Prerequisites or at least none that really effected the Eidolons more than they did a Full Eidolon or PC.
Every even level they were equal in power. These levels were the better ones to use them at as it didn't require as much difficulty.
The way I handled Healing was I took around half their damage and then spent most of my time using Eidolon Healing Spells at the end of the day before I slept.
As a precaution I always had a Ring Of Sustenance for shorter sleep times.
I also had Wands of Healing to UMD on myself and to some to heal the Eidolons.
They were focused to be mounts and scouts for our party primarily and in combat would support the Rogue and Fighter in the Party while I Buffed them all. After the Buffs were up I would move into combat using a Longspear.
So...I'm about to get started with a campaign (will be balancing it with my other campaign) with two other players and a DM. Our Bard has decided that she will NOT engage in combat...AT ALL...our other PC is a Rogue...so, I must choose a class. I'm having a hard time deciding between a martial class to pick up our slack on melee damage (or go archer) and a spellcasting class. Help...?
Master Summoner - summoned creatures can benefit from the Bard's buffs, the Rogue has plenty of flanking targets and you get some useful spells like Teleport and the Pit line... as well as a customizable flying scout who can see in the dark and communicate with you telepathically.
Teamwork Feats and Tactical Placement. That is all it takes to make this archetype function.
Alright now there's a start. But still a nonargument.
Now what levels are you making it work? How are you handling prerequisites when you have to split the feats? How many eidolons are you actually making use of? How are you getting good tactical placement over summoning a bunch of flying birds that pop instantly where and when you want them (including into flanking positions)? What team work feats are you going with? How are you handling the resource costs of having to keep your pack healed up? What was your party makeup like to make this work?
And ultimately why is this any better than a master summoner who can not only make tactical placement happen instantly but cater the creatures in question to fit the environment (two things that, yes, I've done to and had done to me with amazing effect on or against a master summoner).
As a self-professed expert on all things Summoner, I can tell you that the hoops you have to jump through to make the Brood Master even moderately effective just aren't worth the trouble in my opinion... now, I ran one in a low power campaign aboard a ship and had a lot of fun doing it, but they were more valuable as comic relief than as combatants.
Now the things I've done with my Master Summoner on the other hand almost defy belief, both role-play wise AND from a pure numbers standpoint. I've really been devastating as my standard Summoner as well when his eidolon was designed as a mount and he as a melee threat.
In fact, we're about to begin a Second Darkness campaign with those two builds - a standard Summoner with an Eidolon mount and his twin sister a Master Summoner with a scout-style Eidolon (both half-elves). They'll be teaming up with a elven Void Wizard and a Human or Aasimar Arcane Duelist - we're very optimistic.
An Inquisitor would work well, decent switch hitter, comes with solo tactics and team work feats. has some healing and plenty of out of combat abilities.
There are some builds that could be pretty gnarly in combat as a flank buddy.
Also consider rage prophet as being a very good build of everything you might need in a small group.
The Magus can also fit this bill, there are some crazy resourceful builds here to be considered.
If you don't want to cast spells, Mobile fighter with the right feats could have you running around all over the place, and again with the right feats you could end up with as many attacks as a brood of summons.
Druid, hmmm, the divine gish thing sounds like fun.... I would if you could multi class with magus to get some synergy? I can't see the druid holding his own without a bit more combat buff, he's been nerfed to death as of late.
The Magus with the whip feats could be amazingly useful here, maybe consider a skirnir or hex crafter with whip feats and a dip into druid for some heals.... I'd have to check on that one myself.... hmmmm I wonder.
A Skirnir Whip Master is Evil. A Skirnir/Phalanx Soldier with a Halberd is even more devestating.
I don't think that combo with a halberd would work.... one handed weapon and all...
Skirnir whip master FTW....
Human as a race probably for the extra feat, whip master is rather feat intensive.
Halberd is a Two-Handed Weapon. Phalanx Soldier allows you to wield a Two-Handed Spear or Polearm One-Handed.
I don't think that combo with a halberd would work.... one handed weapon and all...
Skirnir whip master FTW....
Human as a race probably for the extra feat, whip master is rather feat intensive.
This is a bit off topic but I would really like to know why this is good. i am being serious here I have always wanted to like Skirnir but have not been able to find a way to work with it well. Deminished casting, Loss of spell recall, and spell combat being pushed back to lvl 8 is a very steep price.
I also thought that the power of whip magus was true strike + Trip/disarm. But skirnir can not do this combo in the same round until lvl 8.
Kensai on the other hand can get whip master feat sooner (lvl 3 rather then lvl 5 like most magi.) Though they still suffer from most of the same loses as skirnir.
I really hope there is something I am missing here because A shield Magus is something I want to love. But as I see it any magus with wand wielder and a wand of shield is better off.
The Skirnir is a Fluff choice more than anything.
After all I can see a Grey Maiden using it or a Valkyrie-based character using it.
But it feels more of a Dip Archetype more than anything.
The shield can be bonuses up with the arcane pool just like a normal weapon, the magus can bash with it for close in combat, which is the weak point (early on) of the whip. IF something is close to you, bash it, far away, whip it.
Spell combat and the whip feat chain don't really come into true usefulness until higher levels anyway (when you have all the feats and enough attack bonus and good spells to make them work)
the shield magus helps the magus it's self survive through the lower levels (a big complaint about the magus) and all those shiny toys you stare at on paper, don't fully come into play later anyway, because you don't have the resources to pull them off regularly until you have more spells and arcana to play with.
You really have to play it first, I know it seems like a big bummer on paper. but if you've played a normal sword swinging magus in levels 1-8, try a whipping shield magus now. It's a whole different character, sure you have to wait for spell combat but seriously so what? you get it when it's actually useful.
And losing spell recall isn't really that much of a downer.
Halberd is a Two-Handed Weapon. Phalanx Soldier allows you to wield a Two-Handed Spear or Polearm One-Handed.
I thought phalanx soldier was the one that focused on shields.... I thought pole arm master was the one that did the funky polearm stuff. Magus specifically calls out 'one handed weapon' not a two handed weapon you can use one handed.... could be semantics, I'm not sure what the intent was there, but in addition to having a free hand, you have to use a one handed or light weapon.... again could be semantics.
Bards can Buff like crazy.
If the Bard is Buffing, then he is helping.
Exactly. You all are acting like the bard is good for much else in the first place.
Halberd is a Two-Handed Weapon. Phalanx Soldier allows you to wield a Two-Handed Spear or Polearm One-Handed.I thought phalanx soldier was the one that focused on shields.... I thought pole arm master was the one that did the funky polearm stuff. Magus specifically calls out 'one handed weapon' not a two handed weapon you can use one handed.... could be semantics, I'm not sure what the intent was there, but in addition to having a free hand, you have to use a one handed or light weapon.... again could be semantics.
I gave it a look and it works.
"At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon."
With this ability it is in fact a one handed weapon. While dipping out of any caster class is painful this is interesting.
I would allow it with the Skirnir archetype.
Phalanx Soldier has the Phalanx Fighting Ability which states: "When a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon."
Polearm Master has Polearm Fighting which states: "As an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd."
Look at Ravingdork's Characters he has a Phalanx_Fighter3/SkirnirX character who uses a Naginata.
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Its just how girls are sometimes... I'm guessing dating or close friends with a player?
Yes, and the only *women* who play games do so at the behest of boys. They can only be *tagalongs* playing because the *boys* begged them to come along.
Seriously, why is there so much knee-jerk misogony in geekdom?
Back on topic: I agree with phalanx fighter, though my brother and I once played characters together - he was a skirmisher ranger (twf hand axe/dagger) and I was a twf knife master rogue - and with a few teamwork feats we were insanly effective in combat together.
Let the spoony bard hide if she wants - it'll make for good roleplaying when the *characters* get tired of doing all the work and kick her barrel down a hill :)
EDIT: Or as the Pharasmians would say "the Grey Lady drew the skane of your life a long time ago...go and hide in a hole if you wish...you won't live a moment longer."
Its just how girls are sometimes... I'm guessing dating or close friends with a player?Yes, and the only *women* who play games do it at the behest of boys. They can only be *tagalongs* playing because the *boys* begged them to come along.
Seriously, why is there so much knee-jerk misogony in geekdom?
In his defense, I don't think that making a surmation based on his past experiences constitutes misogyny...
Exactly. You all are acting like the bard is good for much else in the first place.Bards can Buff like crazy.
If the Bard is Buffing, then he is helping.
I think the implication was that this bard was in fact not even doing that small thing.
Second I think you are seriously underestimating the capabilities of a decent bard in a fight.
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In his defense, I don't think that making a surmation based on his past experiences constitutes misogyny...Its just how girls are sometimes... I'm guessing dating or close friends with a player?Yes, and the only *women* who play games do it at the behest of boys. They can only be *tagalongs* playing because the *boys* begged them to come along.
Seriously, why is there so much knee-jerk misogony in geekdom?
*prejudging* a stranger he's never met via "past experiences" IS prejudice/misogony. This woman could very well be a tagalong (I've seen men tagalong, too), but its pretty presumptious to assume that and just shrug and say "girls-amiright?" without any prior knowledge of the person.
That's my last offtopic response on this.
Exactly. You all are acting like the bard is good for much else in the first place.Bards can Buff like crazy.
If the Bard is Buffing, then he is helping.
I think the implication was that this bard was in fact not even doing that small thing.
Second I think you are seriously underestimating the capabilities of a decent bard in a fight.
Heck, even a wand of something (Scorching Ray, Fireball, Lightning Bolt) would be effective.
At the moment I'm trying to put together an Arcane Duelist for my party - its a bit of a challenge, but I think I'm finding some good combat roles for him. He's not a front line guy necessarily, but he certainly doesn't have to stand around whistling or singing either.
The way I handled Healing was I took around half their damage and then spent most of my time using Eidolon Healing Spells at the end of the day before I slept.
How did you take half damage? Brood link only works on damage that would send the Eidolon to its homeplane.
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Its just how girls are sometimes... I'm guessing dating or close friends with a player?Yes, and the only *women* who play games do so at the behest of boys. They can only be *tagalongs* playing because the *boys* begged them to come along.
Seriously, why is there so much knee-jerk misogony in geekdom?
Cracked.com had a beautiful article related to this subject today.
Wow...this thread blew up! haha. At this point, I've talked to my DM...he's running a low magic campaign apparently, and has restricted the Magus, and replaced it with the Duskblade from 3.5 -_- A DUMB move, imo, but, alas...on the same token, he also approved the WIld Cohort and Nature Bond feats from 3.5...for some reason he specified those two feats...anyway, I was thinking at this point of either going Barbarian or going Rogue with these two feats to get a flanking buddy...but I dunno. This build would provide for some nice DPS and some cool social interaction, but I'm not sure.
As for the issue with the Bard...I mean...she will do NOTHING but hide in combat. She said that she is a Bard for social interaction, and has proved to me that she knows nothing of the combat system. Our DM, who was the DM in our Bard's old campaign, has told me that she used to attempt to run away from the battle, has hidden in barrels and behind carts, etc. He also told me that he's going to find ways to deny her escapes, so she'll HAVE to do something, so I'll bring buffing to her attention, so she has SOMETHING to do besides hand-to-had...she's terrified of losing her character.
So with that information, what do you guys think? Should I sneak around with my pet wolf, or scream "AM BARBARIAN" as I charge the enemy with my greatsword?
Two rogues would be nice. What about ninja?
Mounted Fury Barbarian. Scream "AM BARBARIAN" while charging the enemy with your greatsword on your pet wolf ;)
It sounds like your Bard is going to be a pain. You really really need to convince her to at least do some buffing. From what I've experienced so far, the enemies generally do not care about the stupid gaudy Bard who runs around singing on the battle field, when something bigger is up in their face, trying to slash them to pieces. Maybe if she's made aware of that, she will at least be willing to do that much.
If that does not work and she really isn't doing anything in battle when game starts, I think threatening her with abandonment in character might be appropriate. As I believe has been stated before, a party member who does nothing in battle could become a bigger burden than no party member at all.
Well, my LE magus is always trying to take more than his fair share of the treasure, "fair?? Equal?? I don't see those terms anywhere in our articles of organization for this adventure company we have formed. IT says 'share'. Since I did the larger 'share' of the fighting, my 'share' is larger than yours.."
So maybe play that way for a little bit? If you don't DO anything, you dont GET anything.
Hmm...I've been brainstorming an idea of a human Rogue with a pet wolf, LE, kind of the same thing as your Magus. Sorta like "what do you want, you puny singer? You want payment for your cowardice? My wolf will get 'your' share, small one (she will be playing a Gnome)"
Small Mounted Fury Barbarian going Mammoth Rider(if possible).
Choose a smaller companion when able. Like a Big Cat(?) once it becomes Medium.
Or straight Ranger built around hunting his pray and using Pack Tactics.
NOTE: IT has been forever since I have used a Animal Comp.
You wouldn't happen to know what you will mostly be fighting?
How does a Rogue get a animal companion?
Also, tell her a character dying gloriously in battle is better than them dying with their tail between their legs.
@TarkXT: sorry I worded that line horribly.
What I meant was when ever they would normally be sent back during combat I would take the damage half of the time and heal myself when able to. As I was primarily ranged it helped out.
What about a conan style rogue?
there are SO many tasty rogue talents these days, however, instead of meshing with barbarian what about ranger?
the ranger gets the animal and you could take enough rogue levels to make him a 'rogue' character.
Nothing wrong with a greedy rogue.
But as an alternate idea to this beast riding guy we seem to be dreaming up, what about a Beast Rider cavalier? No one says he can't be gruff and scary?
Cavalier gets tactician and team work feats and both him and his mount would be excellent flanking buddies for the rogue.
Beast Rider gives you the most powerful mount with no lost levels (who wants a crunchy fluffy?)
Ok... that's it my new vote is beast rider cavalier, maybe with the order of the cockatrice?
Edit: ok Ive got it. LE Beast Rider, Order of the Cockatrice, Uses a Polearm from the back of his (in the future) carnivorous mount. Take the Improved unarmed strike feat to kick anyone who gets too close to you (or back hand them with impunity) Panther martial arts style would be a neat feat chain for this guy. Keep a sword and board on the guy for different scenarios.
I also think, mayyyybe a cool build (as an option) would be to take this guy to battle herald, because he could get a lot of mileage shouting orders around the battle field like a drill sergeant.
But for personal power and glory (and more than your share of the treasure) stick with beat rider FTW (I could totally see a LE order of the cockatrice arguing that his mount gets a share of the treasure)
I have no idea what we'd be fighting. As for getting a companion, I stated earlier that the DM (for some unknown reason) specified that Wild Cohort from 3.5 was allowed, so I would take that for a Wolf companion.