Goblin Squad Member
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I withdrew my kickstarter pledge due to threads like these. If the pro PVP community is going to be so hostile from the start, I don't even want to know how it is going to be in game.
Some of us just want to explore and craft. Maybe even kill a couple of goblins. If this game is going to be implemented as is, its going to be a griefers paradise. This game either needs consensual PVP or a separate PVE server. I am not paying to be someone else content. Sorry.
Truth be told, in a sandbox game you have the highest form of crafting and exploration. In this game you can manipulate the market, put in buy orders and have others ship or transport it to you.
As an example, I former corpmate of mine in Eve Online made 25bil isk by a gamble that paid off. He lost 10b the day after by another gamble. However he did all of this from a station and never leaving the station. He put in buy and sell orders and others just bought and sold the items he was looking for. I can see this happening with PFO as well. I am even sure that you can ask people to transport the items for you for a fee, protect the caravan. And for this you don't even have to leave a settlement.
In a themepark MMO the market will get saturated after awhile, prices will drop and you will make less money. In a sandbox game, where you can pvp, imagine the money you can make if you can predict a war between guilds, stock up on items you know that they will be using. You are making the game for yourself and you can do alot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From a certain perspective, Facebook has a sort of PVP, at least if you get into ideological arguments beyond whose silly cat photos are the funniest. People 'win' by having their ideas get attention and spread, but some cheat the system by intentionally provoking people in order to cause distress. Internet 'trolls' are essentially the griefers of a communication-driven community game. On Facebook, you unsubscribe, de-friend, or in extreme cases, report those who are behaving in a socially toxic way. On PFO, you can spread the word about who they are, put out bounty contracts, and in extreme cases report griefers. Either way, the toxic member's potential for further mischief and even legitimate social interaction becomes increasingly difficult and limited, until they get themselves banned altogether or simply fade away as the greater community drives them out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From a certain perspective, Facebook has a sort of PVP, at least if you get into ideological arguments beyond whose silly cat photos are the funniest. People 'win' by having their ideas get attention and spread, but some cheat the system by intentionally provoking people in order to cause distress. Internet 'trolls' are essentially the griefers of a communication-driven community game. On Facebook, you unsubscribe, de-friend, or in extreme cases, report those who are behaving in a socially toxic way. On PFO, you can spread the word about who they are, put out bounty contracts, and in extreme cases report griefers. Either way, the toxic member's potential for further mischief and even legitimate social interaction becomes increasingly difficult and limited, until they get themselves banned altogether or simply fade away as the greater community drives them out.
I have never seen that happen, although I've heard it happens in eve, but my experience is you end up with a few griefer/gank squad guilds that call themselves a pvp guild, often even saying they defend justice etc, and working together to cause trouble because they get a kick out of it.
I'm hoping the mechanisms here will cut that down, but there's a few other things about the system that concern me a little- mostly down the road though. Bored veterans that started out like everyone else, got the abilities they need to make them self sufficient (or self sufficient in their group) run off into the wilderness and have a high end hideout somewhere, or even a small town for their own use and due to their accumulated wealth and power over the years can do what they like despite the systems in place and end up making the game less fun for others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, it's your money, and if you don't want to pledge, you shouldn't, but I would still recommend keeping an eye on the game and see how the system pans out, I am cautiously optimistic, I don't think it will be a griefer's paradise,but if that's how it turns out, I will lose interest quickly.I withdrew my kickstarter pledge due to threads like these. If the pro PVP community is going to be so hostile from the start, I don't even want to know how it is going to be in game.
Some of us just want to explore and craft. Maybe even kill a couple of goblins. If this game is going to be implemented as is, its going to be a griefers paradise. This game either needs consensual PVP or a separate PVE server. I am not paying to be someone else content. Sorry.
I would agree with Jameow and also add a thought of my own.
One reason I am backing this particular KS is the Beta access. I want this game to succeed, and I want to be part of the beta to influence the path of PvP
I'd much rather PFO have a PvE only option, but I understand this is not going to happen. The best thing I, or anyone who shares my revulsion of PvP can do is to give my input as to how gankers are gaming the system and hopefully help construct systems to make it 'unfun' for them
Will it work? Only time will tell. I understand why you wouldn't want to throw in a lot of cash on a promise, but perhaps we can limit the jerks from ruining the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I withdrew my kickstarter pledge due to threads like these. If the pro PVP community is going to be so hostile from the start, I don't even want to know how it is going to be in game.
Some of us just want to explore and craft. Maybe even kill a couple of goblins. If this game is going to be implemented as is, its going to be a griefers paradise. This game either needs consensual PVP or a separate PVE server. I am not paying to be someone else content. Sorry.
I'm sorry to hear that Arslanxelan: People like you are the sort of players I DO want to experience The River Kingdoms with. Did you read the blog: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms? In particular the sub-heading: "Many Shades of Grief". If so and when, what are your thoughts on Goblin Works' methods and intentions to curb such anti-social actions?
It's worth mentioning that these threads are a product of "over-reporting" because they are hot button topics for people. So please don't think all players advocating open-pvp+pve on a single server are pure pvp'ers: I'm not. But I do see how it is just one amongst many nested systems required to make a functional and complex sandbox environment.
For what it is worth, my intention is to help FORGE a kingdom that is a has the best PvE content and is safe for allied and involved players to enjoy. I like the challenge of seeing if that is possible to achieve in Pathfinder Online.
Let's say things slowly start developing as more people get in, and it starts becoming apparent that an overly significant proportion of people truly do just want to become murderous scum, to the point where the wilderness does devolve into "Quake with swords".
Is GW willing to start jacking up the penalties more and more to start cutting down on the number of players who choose this route? What if people continue to ignore the punishments or choose to live with them, and there are not enough player groups either interested or willing to stop them?
Andius mentioned one possibility:
The other nice part about the slow launch is say the game starts out, and most players actually DO decide to go chaotic evil, and leaving the safe areas turns into a massive gankfest.
They can adjust the alignment system, adjust the rewards for being lawful and good, and penalties for being chaotic and evil. If what it takes is allowing lawful good players cheap cities with powerful NPC guards and perks, and reducing chaotic evil players to nothing but hidey holes and shanty towns... that is what they can do.
In SWOTOR, it sounds the same as WAR, where destros were usually more popular in this 2-factions system. Simply put, PfO is scaling the power of groups so that the most powerful are LG on various measures: Players will gravitate to that and secondly if the early players are a close-knit bunch and all get on, I could see a good proportion of them taking this route: More reason to cooperate and collaborate at the early stage. It's also a system that not only scales but reinforces, as some groups push other groups, they will push back with interest and that would be LG interest to assert dominion I'd assume: All said from 10,000 ft btw.
So it's about being competitive and LG is assumed to be most competitive but within limits of "conduct". I think CE is about freedom at a price that needs flexing. :) Organisation requires reciprocal interaction: That should be the formula for the most powerful kingdoms: I expect LG to be that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've posted many times in favor of less pvp and have recieved zero hostile responses so maybe its the way you word your own posts.
The repsonses I got did make me rethink the situation and I realized its not the pvp I don't like its the losing my stuff I don't like. You can kill me all day, I'll just laugh at my ineptitude, but take two hours of harvesting materials and I'll be cursing your mother.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The repsonses I got did make me rethink the situation and I realized its not the pvp I don't like its the losing my stuff I don't like. You can kill me all day, I'll just laugh at my ineptitude, but take two hours of harvesting materials and I'll be cursing your mother.
This is the reason why most PvE'ers don't like to play in a sandbox MMO. They are afraid to lose their hard earned items and will quit if it happens to many times. I personally have no problems with but I know there are people who feel like that.
It isn't something that is easy to fix tho, and I do feel it shouldn't be fixed, but if there is a golden way to do it, it could be done the way Earthrise (Sandbox future MMO) tried do it. You could insure your gear and that what you had insured you wouldn't lose, the rest was just fair game. Still you would lose all you have harvested and the likes but you still had your armor and weapons you crafted.
Psyblade: This is a pretty verbatim truth for me.
Right now, I was under the impression lootability of items was a punishment for engaging in unprovoked PVP/Criminal behaviors. Could someone please clarify if I am mistaken?
To be read only if it is confirmed that item loss applies to non-criminal/low reputation/whatever players:
If I'm a player who minds my own business, tries to be on the side of good, doesn't attack or grief other players, and by virtue of some player deciding to kill me, I either lose items or money - the game's done for me. Let me know so I can pull my pledge.
This is 100% a deal-breaker for me, and I have no room for negotiation on this. I will also not accept "Try it, you might like it" as a response either. Much like brussel sprouts or cauliflower, I've already tried it once and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do with a mechanic of this type that makes it acceptable to me. While I will accept non-consensual PVP in the game, I will not accept item or monetary loss for non-criminal characters.
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Some of us just want to explore and craft. Maybe even kill a couple of goblins. If this game is going to be implemented as is, its going to be a griefers paradise. This game either needs consensual PVP or a separate PVE server. I am not paying to be someone else content. Sorry.
^This^
I agree.Also, I do not like PvP, and do not wish it to hinder my gameplay (It never enhances it, not for me no matter what anti-pvp stuff is in place)
But I could probably stomach it if there was no Player looting, if you couldn't lose your stuff!! If you weren't punished for 'loosing' in PvP.
There is always some player that has an unfair advantage or others either by lag, hacking, or some other sort of thing.. and to die to that is one thing but to lose something you earn in game is another..
maybe if they had a 'separate loot table', that the killers can 'loot' you like a mob and get some 'stuff' but you don't lose any of 'your stuff' at all... then maybe I could put-up with the annoying PvP..
but the two together is such a no no.. and I believe if there is 'Less punishment' for losing a PvP fight, more PvE people would be more 'game/willing' to give Pathfinder Online a look..
I think that is the biggest 'Stay Away' for us PvE'ers with PvP.. is the punishment we get for begin the victim of PvP
..
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those who are against the whole PvP / Loot I have a question, not going to attack your point of view but I do want to stir something to have you think on.
First, let me give an example of eve (something that PFO is going to do as well). Eve Online has 10 different systems, ration from 1.0 (high sec and totally safe) to 0.0 (alliance controlled space). From 1.0 to 0.6 you can fly and not be worried to be killed (unles someone is going to gank you and get killed in return). They will be hunted down by the space police called Concorde. Ofcourse if you are in a War you can be killed everywhere.
For the PvE people there are several options to do...
1) Mission running, do missions in a safe location, get good loot and money, get an improvement in standings with a certain faction etc.
2) crafting/trading. People are making ships, ammo, blueprints etc. You virtually can become a mogol of ammo, ships etc
3) you can go ratting (killed NPC pirates) for loot, security rating etc.
Now most of these things are pretty safe to do in the zones till 0.6, however these are also available from 0.5 to 0.0 but then there will be more risk. Other people, pirates, alliances etc. However, there are whole corporations that do that even in 0.0 space and they can make millions a day (or they live in a wormhole and do the same).
So, now that the explanation is given, here is the question.
Why is the Risk vs. Reward so scary, and why not work together in a guild and then in an alliance to ensure you have your own piece of ground (where you know you will be protected by other alliance members?) And then prosper? dable in the occasional PvP and learn that yes, it sucks to lose your items, but damn it was a rush to defend our land.
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Goblin Squad Member
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dable in the occasional PvP and learn that yes, it sucks to lose your items, but damn it was a rush to defend our land.
Because this is the point- for people who don't enjoy it, it ISN'T a rush, it's just frustrating.
The same way some people enjoy WoW. There's nothing I find enjoyable about it. They're not wrong, for them it IS enjoyable, but for me it's not. The same thing applies here. For some people PVP holds NO appeal.
As for the risk vs reward thing, part of the point is that for the people doing the attacking, there IS no risk. They're geared for it, experienced in it, and generally have enough success in looting that even when they do lose, they've gained more than they've lost over all, however if you travelled for an hour to get to a spot for a rare resource, spend and hour trying to gather it and finally do, then someone comes along and attacks you. You're geared up for harvesting, if it's harvesting off a creature that might mean specialised weapons and armor, a certain set of preprepared abilities (such as the spells a wizard chose to prepare) etc vs someone who came equipped and prepared to kill other people. Immediately the PvE'er is at a disadvantage EVEN if they're good at PvP. Even if they're equal in latency and skill, the PvPer STILL has the edge.
Look at it this way:
Time invested in the resource by PvE'er: 2 hours
Time invested by PvPer in the resource: About 2 minutes
All the risk goes to the PvE'er, all the reward goes to the PvPer. THIS is why PvEers find no enjoyment in it.
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Why is the Risk vs. Reward so scary, and why not work together in a guild and then in an alliance to ensure you have your own piece of ground (where you know you will be protected by other alliance members?) And then prosper? dable in the occasional PvP and learn that yes, it sucks to lose your items, but damn it was a rush to defend our land.
Because the risk versus the reward is not the same. The person initiating the PVP conflict gets to go into it and prepare for it beforehand by stashing everything they don't wish to lose in a safe location, while the person having no choice does not receive the same luxury. They already get the advantage of surprise, it puts all the cards in the hands of the attacker.
Suffice to say, it makes being an attacker far more appealing than being an attackee. Making it so that they can take your stuff is just adding injury to insult.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Psyblade: This is a pretty verbatim truth for me.
Right now, I was under the impression lootability of items was a punishment for engaging in unprovoked PVP/Criminal behaviors. Could someone please clarify if I am mistaken?
To be read only if it is confirmed that item loss applies to non-criminal/low reputation/whatever players:
** spoiler omitted **
My understanding is that a small number of random items will be lootable, but your main equipment will not be in the options and most of your stuff will be safe from looting.
I have heard the same things about criminals being full loot perhaps, but I'm not sure if that's speculation or the actual system. I guess the best answer is "watch this space and see how it turns out" I don't think the specifics are finalised.
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maybe if they had a 'separate loot table', that the killers can 'loot' you like a mob and get some 'stuff' but you don't lose any of 'your stuff' at all... then maybe I could put-up with the annoying PvP..
but the two together is such a no no.. and I believe if there is 'Less punishment' for losing a PvP fight, more PvE people would be more 'game/willing' to give Pathfinder Online a look..
I think that is the biggest 'Stay Away' for us PvE'ers with PvP.. is the punishment we get for begin the victim of PvP
OMG YES!!!!!!
If there was a separate Loot-table, that you get when you loot a 'player' and not take their own stuff, then sure, I could probably give Pathfinder Online anotehr shot.
That is the worst thing about PvP, is the punishment that non-PvP player gets for being the victim of a PvP assault.
its like the main reason I don't play other PvP games like Eve Online, Darkfall and such.. The loss of your in-game stuff to PvP. Its not fun at all and an instant 'quit'
So yeah, I don't like open PvP, and will not willing participate in it, but I might be willing to play around it except for the player-looting and being able to lose your in game rewards.
That there is the biggest turn-off of PvP (to a PvE'er like me).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, I can undestand those points, but, you are in a guild, with guildmembers so you aren't alone. That is something to take into consideration as well. Would it still be different then? knowing you have friends and allies backing you up?
From each comment (and please don't take this the wrong way) is that all of you think you are solo, getting jumped etc. But I am not looking towards that part, I am looking towards the part where you are with friends etc.
I think, and this might just be me, People need to step out of the solo way of thinking (when you are far away from civilization) and think in grp terms.
My understanding is that a small number of random items will be lootable, but your main equipment will not be in the options and most of your stuff will be safe from looting.
I have heard the same things about criminals being full loot perhaps, but I'm not sure if that's speculation or the actual system. I guess the best answer is "watch this space and see how it turns out" I don't think the specifics are finalised.
*shrug*
Again, spoiler tagging this because I don't want someone to casually read this and think it's the case if it's not confirmed.
I know that this is an empty threat, but I will not spend my hard earned money funding a game that supports PVP-enabled looting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, I can undestand those points, but, you are in a guild, with guildmembers so you aren't alone. That is something to take into consideration as well. Would it still be different then? knowing you have friends and allies backing you up?
From each comment (and please don't take this the wrong way) is that all of you think you are solo, getting jumped etc. But I am not looking towards that part, I am looking towards the part where you are with friends etc.
I think, and this might just be me, People need to step out of the solo way of thinking (when you are far away from civilization) and think in grp terms.
I'm in australia. I don't GET high population. I get "hello? guild? is anyone here?" I also get a ping of about 300ms to the US.
I was in the largest guild on the Australian UO server. It was in the top 100 guilds in UO. We took part in a pvp battle for a town. There were about 30 of us. We were against 8 PvPers. They wiped us out. Every single one. We had the home ground, we had prepared in advance, we have even barricaded many of the entrances to bottleneck the approaches.
Before you say "get better at PvP and that won't happen" Remember you are talking to people with NO INTEREST in PvP. Practicing PvP is taking time away from "gameplay" to do a chore.
It's like asking a PVPer to grind killing paralyzed rabbits for 12 days to unlock PvP. Nothing about it is fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I withdrew my kickstarter pledge due to threads like these. If the pro PVP community is going to be so hostile from the start, I don't even want to know how it is going to be in game.
Some of us just want to explore and craft. Maybe even kill a couple of goblins. If this game is going to be implemented as is, its going to be a griefers paradise. This game either needs consensual PVP or a separate PVE server. I am not paying to be someone else content. Sorry.
I'm sorry to hear that Arslanxelan: People like you are the sort of players I DO want to experience The River Kingdoms with. Did you read the blog: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms? In particular the sub-heading: "Many Shades of Grief". If so and when, what are your thoughts on Goblin Works' methods and intentions to curb such anti-social actions?
It's worth mentioning that these threads are a product of "over-reporting" because they are hot button topics for people. So please don't think all players advocating open-pvp+pve on a single server are pure pvp'ers: I'm not. But I do see how it is just one amongst many nested systems required to make a functional and complex sandbox environment.
Arslanxelan, I hope you consider AvenaOats thoughts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding is that a small number of random items will be lootable, but your main equipment will not be in the options and most of your stuff will be safe from looting.
I have heard the same things about criminals being full loot perhaps, but I'm not sure if that's speculation or the actual system. I guess the best answer is "watch this space and see how it turns out" I don't think the specifics are finalised.
*shrug*
Again, spoiler tagging this because I don't want someone to casually read this and think it's the case if it's not confirmed.
** spoiler omitted **
I don't think it's going to be a big problem. With that sort of system there isn't really any benefit to killing people for loot, it just makes it harder for the killer to get around and interact. That and you can take a bounty out on them. Repeatedly. And they WILL lose their stuff, but you could just keep putting bounties on them for months so that they are always being hunted.
So I think being a jerk just isn't going to be profitable, and it isn't going to be fun. Except for the really hardcore people that really DO get a rush from that sort of risk, but then, they can get that easier factionally anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, I can undestand those points, but, you are in a guild, with guildmembers so you aren't alone. That is something to take into consideration as well. Would it still be different then? knowing you have friends and allies backing you up?
From each comment (and please don't take this the wrong way) is that all of you think you are solo, getting jumped etc. But I am not looking towards that part, I am looking towards the part where you are with friends etc.
I think, and this might just be me, People need to step out of the solo way of thinking (when you are far away from civilization) and think in grp terms.
I'm in australia. I don't GET high population. I get "hello? guild? is anyone here?" I also get a ping of about 300ms to the US.
I was in the largest guild on the Australian UO server. It was in the top 100 guilds in UO. We took part in a pvp battle for a town. There were about 30 of us. We were against 8 PvPers. They wiped us out. Every single one. We had the home ground, we had prepared in advance, we have even barricaded many of the entrances to bottleneck the approaches.
Before you say "get better at PvP and that won't happen" Remember you are talking to people with NO INTEREST in PvP. Practicing PvP is taking time away from "gameplay" to do a chore.
It's like asking a PVPer to grind killing paralyzed rabbits for 12 days to unlock PvP. Nothing about it is fun.
I will never tel someone to say get better at pvp. I would offer to help with advice on where to improve etc to help, not something like that. And yes I know that when you are teaching someone is taking away your gametime, no argument there.
However (and I don't know UO) but with eve Online there were corporations for every timezone and there were guilds that had timezone coverage etc. I know that when the time comes and my guild will step into the light and announce it self we might be looking at the timezone coverage
I don't think it's going to be a big problem. With that sort of system there isn't really any benefit to killing people for loot, it just makes it harder for the killer to get around and interact. That and you can take a bounty out on them. Repeatedly. And they WILL lose their stuff, but you could just keep putting bounties on them for months so that they are always being hunted.
So I think being a jerk just isn't going to be profitable, and it isn't going to be fun. Except for the really hardcore people that really DO get a rush from that sort of risk, but then, they can get that easier factionally anyway.
I do think it's going to be a huge problem. PVPers don't care about losing their stuff, because they just carry around garbage. I played with PVPers in UO. It was the same thing every time. Go to the house and grab a suit of normal plate and a krys, apply deadly poison. Repeat if you died. Loot all the people you killed and return home occasionally to put piles of magic items on the vendor.
Of all the things that were divisive about UO, I can't believe that would keep the most controversial of them all in even any form.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, I do not like PvP, and do not wish it to hinder my gameplay (It never enhances it, not for me no matter what anti-pvp stuff is in place)
But I could probably stomach it if there was no Player looting, if you couldn't lose your stuff!! If you weren't punished for 'loosing' in PvP
Games with 'player looting' require you to change your play style. And allows the developers to change some things around.
With 'player looting' in the way GW is designing it, there doesn't have to be item degradation, at least for the items that are lootable. There has to be a way to remove equipment and coin from the system, otherwise things become way to cheap, because the demand is so low.
You basically have 4 types of items you will carry:
1. Your 'Main Equipment', this is what stays with you when you die.
2. Your 'Disposable Equipment', this does not stay with you, and goes into your loot pool, it includes things like rings,cloaks, and other accessories. This is all easily replaceable, and sold in massive numbers on the market.
3. Ammo
4. Crafting resources
5. Looted equipment
The only things you should be carrying that are of any value(in comparison to your wealth) is your 'Main Equipment'. If you have 10million coin, you should only spend 1million on your disposable equipment, if not less. You can spend more on your 'main Equipment' but you still need a chunk of cash to replace your disposable equipment.
As for Crafting resources and looted equipment, they should be relatively cheap, the two major sources of item/resource in the game are dungeons, and harvesting camps, both require the use of transportation, and are a group effort. I wouldn't expect to find epic loot or resources, where it would really suck to lose them, until you are a well developed character.
Player looting in this system is only bad if you continue to play how you do in themepark games, carrying everything you can with you, you have to adapt to a new environment, or you will have a bad time. The 'Punishment' is only big if you aren't thinking before your actions.
There are really 4 choices in PFO:
1. Become a 'lone ranger', understanding life will be hard
2. Join up with a group. Most good groups will be happy to compensate new players for their losses, allowing them to play above their current wealth level.
3. Sit in a town, play the market game, and contract work when you need it.
4. Be a dick, and get barred from polite society.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh my, there are a plethora of games out there that do not have non consensual PvP. Age old games had unrestricted PvP and it sucked big time, we all get that.
Now PFO is trying to do something different.
And no, they won't like their game to be dead in 3 weeks because it is one huge gankfest.
Can't you have simply some confidence that they will get the balance right, that PvP is a part of the story and enhances the game?
Or how do you envision a game of building structures and taking land and dominating it without PvP? Do we all build our happy little homes until all the space runs out and then we simply quit and play 2nd life?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, if you want to not be harrased, why not hire people to protect you?
Guard Contract
The accepting party agrees to be logged in and present at a designated location during a specified time frame. Can be accepted by multiple parties, up to a limit specified by the terms. Abandonment of the contract or failure to fulfill the terms forfeits an amount of coin held in escrow as defined by the contract. The party offering the contract specifies an account to fund the contract when the contract is created. The agreed fee for the guard is placed in escrow each time the contract is accepted. If the fee cannot be put in escrow, the contract cannot be accepted. Can only be seen and accepted at the location where the contract is offered.
https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120523
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why is the Risk vs. Reward so scary, and why not work together in a guild and then in an alliance to ensure you have your own piece of ground (where you know you will be protected by other alliance members?) And then prosper? dable in the occasional PvP and learn that yes, it sucks to lose your items, but damn it was a rush to defend our land.
Risk vs. Reward isn't scary. It's just that open-world PvP doesn't reward risk. Unless you see corpse-running as a reward, anyway. Open-world PvP rewards clever tactics, like only picking fights you are confident you'll win. Which is entirely sensible, but certainly not a high-risk sort of situation.
Thing is, I'm not really seeing what rewards goes along with the risk. The excitement of getting thoroughly acquainted with the resurrection system? :) Being able to play the game at all?
Personally, I don't really expect to get a rush from defending my land. I think it's more likely that I'd be vaguely annoyed that I'm being distracted from whatever I wanted to be doing with my time, and hope that I get killed fast so I can get back to whatever.
And while we're using EVE as a benchmark, there was one big issue with EVE: For a sandbox game, there wasn't actually anything to do in the game, unless you were part of a major corporation or had near-infinite resources. For PFO, I hope it will have more options than "join a major kingdom or leave". I heard that was their goal, too!
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Also, if you want to not be harrased, why not hire people to protect you?
Guard Contract
The accepting party agrees to be logged in and present at a designated location during a specified time frame. Can be accepted by multiple parties, up to a limit specified by the terms. Abandonment of the contract or failure to fulfill the terms forfeits an amount of coin held in escrow as defined by the contract. The party offering the contract specifies an account to fund the contract when the contract is created. The agreed fee for the guard is placed in escrow each time the contract is accepted. If the fee cannot be put in escrow, the contract cannot be accepted. Can only be seen and accepted at the location where the contract is offered.https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120523
Dear Sir or Madam,
I will be doing something at this place at this point of time, that necessitates me thinking I need a guard. Please be at this place on Thursday, December 12th at 10pm Central Time to gank me, I will certainly be transporting items worthy of your time.
Thank you,
Newb.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it's going to be a big problem. With that sort of system there isn't really any benefit to killing people for loot, it just makes it harder for the killer to get around and interact. That and you can take a bounty out on them. Repeatedly. And they WILL lose their stuff, but you could just keep putting bounties on them for months so that they are always being hunted.
So I think being a jerk just isn't going to be profitable, and it isn't going to be fun. Except for the really hardcore people that really DO get a rush from that sort of risk, but then, they can get that easier factionally anyway.
I do think it's going to be a huge problem. PVPers don't care about losing their stuff, because they just carry around garbage. I played with PVPers in UO. It was the same thing every time. Go to the house and grab a suit of normal plate and a krys, apply deadly poison. Repeat if you died. Loot all the people you killed and return home occasionally to put piles of magic items on the vendor.
Of all the things that were divisive about UO, I can't believe that would keep the most controversial of them all in even any form.
But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.
But there's more than that. There's the reputation system. It will be hard to play someone with a bad reputation, becuase it is controlled by PLAYERS. So Even if they keep down murder counts or whatever and maintain lawful good alignment, they will still have a bad reputation rating, and so will the people who associate with them, even if they're not directly griefing themselves. That will impact on their ability to interact with other people, so if it works as it is envisioned, if you want PVP, you're better off going for the factional PvP, which is essentially consensual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And while we're using EVE as a benchmark, there was one big issue with EVE: For a sandbox game, there wasn't actually anything to do in the game, unless you were part of a major corporation or had near-infinite resources. For PFO, I hope it will have more options than "join a major kingdom or leave". I heard that was their goal, too!
In th early days of eve that was indeed correct, there was no player owned structures, alliance mechanics or system stuff at that time. However in the 10 years that eve is online now it has grown and gotten better. And this is what GW is trying to do as well.
Start small, then grow and make things happen and add them. This means that those getting in will be exploring, learning the game and offering advice to GW on what needs to be done.
Keep in mind, Eve Online nearly went belly-up due to the way the game was running, they got it back on track with Ryan on the helm and put in alot of improvements. And those were improvements for PvE and PvP content.
But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.
Playing devils advocate here, I argue that that just gives them incentive to kill you over and over again until you DO drop what they want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dear Sir or Madam,I will be doing something at this place at this point of time, that necessitates me thinking I need a guard. Please be at this place on Thursday, December 12th at 10pm Central Time to gank me, I will certainly be transporting items worthy of your time.
Thank you,
Newb.
I did have a chuckle out of this way you did it.
However, if you are in a guild/alliance territory and you request them to protect you and they do this. You think that they can keep this up? I am sure you would spread the word about this and said guild / alliance would be spit up, slowly turned into a pariah of the community and would be attacked all the time.
Now if they don't gank you, protect you and ensure you get what you need it means you get the items, they get payment and a reputation in regards of protection.
it's a fine line to walk, but reputation will mean alot to charters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, I can undestand those points, but, you are in a guild, with guildmembers so you aren't alone. That is something to take into consideration as well. Would it still be different then? knowing you have friends and allies backing you up?
From each comment (and please don't take this the wrong way) is that all of you think you are solo, getting jumped etc. But I am not looking towards that part, I am looking towards the part where you are with friends etc.
I think, and this might just be me, People need to step out of the solo way of thinking (when you are far away from civilization) and think in grp terms.
I think this is another difference between the PvP vs PvE set. PvE folks often are casual players, and often want to 'do their own thing'. PvP folks have more of a group mentality, and are often more committed to time in game. I run soloing type characters in the MMORPGs I've been in, because I don't have the time or inclination to participate in a lot of joint efforts.
Now, I understand the 'meaningful interaction' of looting, but I think the separate loot table is an interesting idea. Perhaps just a cash reward for winning a battle. Of course, the PvP proponents won't like this because of the 'watering down the danger' factor, and how it makes PvP less 'real'. But, as others have said, for those of us who despise PvP the looting of hard-won items (even if its just a stack of mined ore) is the real irritant. Mobs don't loot you when they kill you. Of course, PvP becomes much less attractive without looting.
I'd be a lot happier knowing my items were safe from looting, but I doubt this will be implemented. Hopefully some common ground can be reached through experimentation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.Playing devils advocate here, I argue that that just gives them incentive to kill you over and over again until you DO drop what they want.
The advantage of the system and bounties as it stands is that you'd shove a bounty on them, then you'd go back to town when you rez to re-equip yourself, chances are there will be SOMEONE around who'd want the contract. The guy who killed you would not be very smart to be hanging around your corpse where they're most likely to be hunted. PArticularly if they killed you more than once. Since they actually CAN lose more than you, they'd be better off going somewhere else. The risk vs reward balance is no longer in their favor.
If they really want the resource, it actually would be more efficient to gather it themselves than to try and attack you for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.Playing devils advocate here, I argue that that just gives them incentive to kill you over and over again until you DO drop what they want.
Except everything you had gets destroyed when they loot you the first time. After they kill you, you are back to where you started before you collected whatever loot they are after.
The hit an alignment and reputation will be a larger cost than going to the market and buying the disposable items they are trying to loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keep in mind, Eve Online nearly went belly-up due to the way the game was running, they got it back on track with Ryan on the helm and put in alot of improvements. And those were improvements for PvE and PvP content.
EVE is "the one that got away" for me. It's a game I've desperately wanted to like (a game that accounts for explosive velocity has something awesome going for it :p), but sadly, it's also a game that is basically designed to actively not appeal to me.
I'm not a social enough player to get into the parts of EVE that are fun. And I don't have the time or dedication to get anywhere on my own. Sure, I can cruise around in a battleship, but there's no actual reason to. I realize that CCP was aware of how pointless missions were, and were dedicated to do something about it.
I'm not sure what kind of improvements they put in though. If any. And I don't know if it's really relevant. As I can understand on Ryan, GW are quite aware of the failings of EVE, and dedicated to sidestepping as many of them as possible.
I'm looking forward to the beta.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.Playing devils advocate here, I argue that that just gives them incentive to kill you over and over again until you DO drop what they want.
Its actually worse than that. If they make it so you can't get your corpse or say, you have to log off to go to work, all that lootable stuff goes poof. So even though the person that killed you doesn't get it, you don't get it back either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mobs don't loot you when they kill you.
Actually in UO they did xD It could be especially tough for mages, as often it was your reagent bag they took. That or gold.
As for no looting having an impact on PvP, not really. Look at all those games like WoW and SWTOR. There's no looting and lots of killing. But again it is generally the no risk stuff where they're just killing people much weaker than them, which is something PFO seems to be trying to counter, making it more of a disadvantage to do that sort of thing to you than it is to the person you're killing.
But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.Playing devils advocate here, I argue that that just gives them incentive to kill you over and over again until you DO drop what they want.
The advantage of the system and bounties as it stands is that you'd shove a bounty on them, then you'd go back to town when you rez to re-equip yourself, chances are there will be SOMEONE around who'd want the contract. The guy who killed you would not be very smart to be hanging around your corpse where they're most likely to be hunted. PArticularly if they killed you more than once. Since they actually CAN lose more than you, they'd be better off going somewhere else. The risk vs reward balance is no longer in their favor.
If they really want the resource, it actually would be more efficient to gather it themselves than to try and attack you for it.
Without going into too much about the bounty system, let's just say there are probably a solid dozen ways to exploit it that are nearly impossible to prove in a substantial way.
"Oh no, it's the dreaded hunter of my guild, Exploitus! I had better put a minimum amount of effort into defending myself while he kills me and claims the bounty, I certainly hope that he doesn't loot me like usual when he kills me."
I mean, heck. Exploitus may not even BE an exploiter. He may just like to hunt people from that guild and not loot their bodies to minimize retaliation. It could be a legitimate case that there is no spoken collaboration and it's just a gentleman's agreement to not go to war against him, because he just collects bounties (at no detriment to the guild) and doesn't loot bodies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE is "the one that got away" for me. It's a game I've desperately wanted to like (a game that accounts for explosive velocity has something awesome going for it :p), but sadly, it's also a game that is basically designed to actively not appeal to me.
Yeah I have said for about the last 4 years or so that while EVE is not for me, the game that I want would be modeled after EVE.
So here I am.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE is "the one that got away" for me. It's a game I've desperately wanted to like (a game that accounts for explosive velocity has something awesome going for it :p), but sadly, it's also a game that is basically designed to actively not appeal to me.I'm not a social enough player to get into the parts of EVE that are fun. And I don't have the time or dedication to get anywhere on my own. Sure, I can cruise around in a battleship, but there's no actual reason to. I realize that CCP was aware of how pointless missions were, and were dedicated to do something about it.
I'm not sure what kind of improvements they put in though. If any. And I don't know if it's really relevant. As I can understand on Ryan, GW are quite aware of the failings of EVE, and dedicated to sidestepping as many of them as possible.
I agree, I've tried EVE a few times and... it just never grabbed me. Somehow the whole experience just felt... passive... I didn't feel like I was actually DOING anything... ever. Even the combat didn't actually feel like I was involved in anything. Even though I had friends who were in corps that gave me all kinds of cool stuff, the game didn't grab me at all.
I also don't like the whole "you need to be in one of the big corps to really get places" It's like saying "you have to work for microsoft or google to get anywhere in life" What's the point in that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the thing is most of your items can't be looted, and they get no control over what they can loot, so if they kill you for those rare ores you just harvested, chances are they STILL won't get them. Which makes it far less reliable to kill players for stuff, particularly since the kind of stuff you can loot is the stuff that's already on the mass market.Playing devils advocate here, I argue that that just gives them incentive to kill you over and over again until you DO drop what they want.
The advantage of the system and bounties as it stands is that you'd shove a bounty on them, then you'd go back to town when you rez to re-equip yourself, chances are there will be SOMEONE around who'd want the contract. The guy who killed you would not be very smart to be hanging around your corpse where they're most likely to be hunted. PArticularly if they killed you more than once. Since they actually CAN lose more than you, they'd be better off going somewhere else. The risk vs reward balance is no longer in their favor.
If they really want the resource, it actually would be more efficient to gather it themselves than to try and attack you for it.
Without going into too much about the bounty system, let's just say there are probably a solid dozen ways to exploit it that are nearly impossible to prove in a substantial way.
"Oh no, it's the dreaded hunter of my guild, Exploitus! I had better put a minimum amount of effort into defending myself while he kills me and claims the bounty, I certainly hope that he doesn't loot me like usual when he kills me."
I mean, heck. Exploitus may not even BE an exploiter. He may just like to hunt people from that guild and not loot their bodies to minimize retaliation. It could be a legitimate case that there is no spoken collaboration and it's just a gentleman's agreement to not go to war against him, because he just collects bounties (at no detriment to the guild) and doesn't loot...
In which case, you lower Exploitus's reputation and you don't offer him the bounty contract again- that's the thing, you can choose WHO can claim the bounty.
Yes, but again, playing devils advocate: How is the player going to know? I means sure, over time yes, eventually certain names might get to be well known, but are you really going to spend a bunch of time after you get killed excluding and including certain people? Unlikely. You just want the bastard dead and will be happy to hear they are.
My suspicion is Exploitus would have an amazing reputation score.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I HAVE noticed in games with a strong PVP element is that there is a great deal of reputation involved, people really do pay attention to how other people act, and quite quickly you discover who the bad eggs are.
You could always eventually take out an assassination on exploitus for not doing the job to your satisfaction :P
But you are right there will be kinks to iron out, but it seems to me from what I've seen, GW is actually interested in how things are being used, not just if they are working mechanically as intended.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mobs don't loot you when they kill you.Actually in UO they did xD It could be especially tough for mages, as often it was your reagent bag they took. That or gold
Lmao. That would have pissed me off to no end. But, I got my start in MMORPGs with EQ1.
As for a separate loot table, if you feel it won't impact the way PvPers play, then all the better. I could take getting killed a lot better without the constant threat of material loss
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I am not opposed to a separate loot table. If it's actually taking my stuff, I'm out.
and you see more PvP because there is no reason not to constantly attack the same player
Except for all of the other penalties?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hrm, the idea of a separate loot table sounds terrible. =) This would take away from the strategy and meaningful nature of actions, imo.
The ideas that GW have floated that a certain amount/type of items are lootable sound like a decent medium. You aren't completely stripped, but you do need to make real strategic choices.
Also, it seems like a lot of these conversations are coming from the standpoint of single-player experience, which this won't be. The basic assumption is player interaction, so if you plan to be a loner 100% all of the time, then, yea, you will definitely run into trouble if you don't plan well.
But if we consider the basic assumption, you will have assistance, and if you cannot save yourself on the spot, then we have a meaningful and exciting retrieval/revenge quest in the making that has the potential to involve a number players. I imagine players will be much more interested and invested in a quest to retrieve an item(s) in this scenario moreso than a quest to camp an item spawn.
I hope these conversations not only deal with the issues associated with past PvP situations, but also the potential, and really cool possibilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I need a guard. Please be at this place... to gank me...
I haven't read the entire thread, but this jumped out at me.
Ryan has made it explicitly clear that using Contracts to lure people out in order to kill them will be considered Griefing, and will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.