Goblin Squad Member
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Death is a set back only when you aren't playing smart.
I would expect bounties similar to what EVE has, you put up an amount, and people get chunks of that amount when they kill the person, depending on how much coin loss the bounty target had. So if you get a 1 million coin bounty, it stays on you until you have lost at least 800,000 coin.
Not sure what to think of assassinations, other than the cost to place an assassination contract should be greater than the cost of getting assassinated. And an assassination should carry harsher penalties to the assassin than a regular kill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And that is your fault for carrying rare ore and walking around alone.The problem I have with Ryan's example is this: Is the loss of my rare ore equal to the death of the character who stole it?
I doubt death has much of a penalty. Even if a bounty hunter finds the guy right away I'm still out my rare ore AND whatever I payed for the bounty.
The risk vs. reward for the player killer is always in favor of reward. With hardly any risk at all.
Well I wouldn't be but that was Ryan's example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I start getting annoyed when people start throwing around "carebear" to describe anyone who doesn't want to pvp. There is already a full pvp player driven sandbox game. It's called Darkfall I quite enjoyed it until I started getting "accidentally" killed and looted at the bank, or when I stepped out of town by people so far above me in stats that I was dead before I even had a chance to react. They also had some anti griefing in place, it just didn't work.
People have legitimate concerns. It's all well and good to say "we'll have systems in place" everywhere has systems in place. The question is DO THEY WORK?
Generally, in my experience, the answer has been no.
Personally I prefer to be in control of when I'm pvping, as most of my experiences have ended up being just someone much more powerful killing me for sport. As I've said before on these systems, the philosophy of "risk vs reward" doesn't apply because the person attacking random people has no risk and all the reward. Even if they sometimes get killed, most of the time they don't.
Do I think PFO's system will work? Probably not. The ones that want to grief will find the best spots to do it and exploit the system. Am I willing to try it anyway and see if it ends up working? Yup. I hope it does, at least enough to make griefing less fun and more work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not much of a stretch to expect similar, but perhaps not as severe, penalties for being killed for a Bounty.
I believe Ryan (or Lee?) already stated criminals would have an increased risk of their "unlootable" items being looted. Whether bounties on your head should add to that depends on how easy it will be to place bounties.
I assume assassination contracts can be placed on anyone (but maybe not by anyone), so that's a completely different kettle of fish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Am I willing to try it anyway and see if it ends up working? Yup.
Glad to hear it!
There are valid concerns that people have about non-consensual PvP, and the only thing we can do is try to point out how the experiences they've had in the past will be less likely in PFO. For example, you mention "people so far above me in stats that I was dead before I even had a chance to react". That's exactly the kind of thing that should never happen in PFO.
From Goblinworks Blog: I Can See for Miles:
1) Characters ramp up in power very quickly initially, and slow down over time. Also a starting character probably has 500-600 hit points, meaning while a max level Barbarian (the hit point leaders) will have around 1800 (a max level fighter 1600, rogue/cleric 1400, mage/sorcerer 1200 though this varies as it is an open system and people can buy more if they want) it's not a vast increase. So the level differential you see in many MMOs is not going to be such a thing; a team of starter characters can kill much more experienced characters. NOTE: These numbers are likely to change, but the proportions will remain roughly the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I’ve never played on a big MMO and experienced PVP and griefing that so many are concerned about. My only real involvement with PVP has been on a NWN persistent worlds (City of Arabel to be precise), which had open PVP. Granted the community policed itself, and there were other options such as non-lethal attacks. Because the community ethos was against griefing, people behaved in a fairly mature fashion, and rarely did full looting (though hunting for a specific key item was common-place). In that environment PVP was fun and added to meaningful human interaction.
I can see the concern that many people are raising towards PVP and griefing in PFO. Many fear that it will detracting from their enjoyment of the game and will amount to griefing. As has been stated before PFO isn’t an open PVP MMO. There will be areas where characters will be completely safe from PVP and griefing.
If you choose to go outside the NPC starter towns then there are a variety of strategies that can mitigate the risk such as;
- Go with a group
- Leave important items behind in storage
- Only go with armour and a main weapon equipped
If you choose option 2 or 3 then if you die you won’t lose anything irreplaceable. Option 3 also opens up some other strategies that you can use to find these PVP griefers (if that is what they are). Let’s say a cunning member of the Great Legionnaires (GL) wants to go hunting for griefers. After they have grouped up a lone ‘scout’ (aka the bait) travels to know hot spots with the rest of the group lagging behind. This scout will have left everything behind except his main weapon and armour. Sure he won’t be able to put up much of a fight, but that isn’t his purpose.
Once the scout encounters a group of PVP griefers he may quickly fall to their savage attacks. The scout could then engage the griefers in an angry rant while the griefers are no doubt taunting him and trying to make his life miserable. Meanwhile the scout is directing his buddies to the scene over voice chat. Suddenly a powerful group the GL’s appear and take the griefers down in quick order. Not only do the griefers get a taste of their own medicine, they lose any items on those characters, they also then have to deal with never ending bounties being placed on those characters heads.
Sure they may shrug and create new characters. However, over time their enjoyment of PVP griefing is likely to wan, and their characters keep getting killed, and then they have to start again and again and again. That aside I really think that by limiting the number of initial players into the game, will have a huge effect on creating the right sort of community where griefing won’t be tolerated, and will be actively hunted done.
If people really want to explore the game by themselves with little to no risk, then leave everything behind apart from your armour and main weapon, which will respawn with you. Sure you’ll probably die a lot due to random encounters and bandits and such. However, you won’t have lost anything apart from some time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's all well and good to say we'll have good stats as newbies, but how will a new character's weapons do against top tier armor nod how will newbie gear do against top tier weapons? It doesn't make much difference if a gank squad's equipment is good enough.
And if the equipment won't make much difference, then what's the point of it? Go to all the work of mastering weaponcraft only to find your weapons are hardly better than when you started out making them? That would be even worse.
The other thing with the "risk vs reward" is that someone/ a group out adventuring and hunting say... Dragons, will be equipped for dragon hunting, they'll have selected abilities to take for this purpose. Your gank squad will be equipped for killing other players, and they'll have selected abilities for this purpose.
People tend to say things like "well you shouldn't go out alone" which is fine if you're playing in peak time, but what about us players who aren't in American or European time zones? Not only will we have less people to ask for help, we also have lower pings. Yes, it means less killers will be around, but they'll pick the places they're most likely to find their preferred prey.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it pretty much breaks down like this....
There is a certain operational overhead cost that has to be factored in when running economic activties out of "safe" space. That cost would include the risk of loosing valuble items to banditry and/or the cost of measures taken to reduce such risks (i.e. guards). Anyone that is engaged is such activity is going to have to factor that in.
On the bandits side, if they're smart, they probably aren't undertaking much direct risk because they are probably purposefully going out with as little as possible to do the job. On the other hand, even though it is a low (economic) risk activity for them it's also probably a fairly LOW REWARD activity. Even though they may get a valuable ore, they are just as likely to get a sack of coal or a half-eaten cheese sandwich. In order to maximize thier time, they are probably going to want to stay out as long as possible and do banditry to try to collect stuff before heading back to somewhere that they can fence the items....which if they do is increasing thier risk.
Hopefully if things are balanced right, the reward you gain for your TIME INVESTMENT will be higher then thiers, even though you may suffer the occasional setback and they may get the occasional jackpot.
The other thing to consider is the INDIRECT risks and rewards. Remember that PFO (if it works as intended) is a game built around Human to Human interaction. Your activity is likely to be seen as beneficial to most other players, therefore you will gain a certain amount of social standing and they are likely to want to see you be successfull in your activity (because it benefits them) wheras the bandits activity is likely to be seen as harmfull by many players, therefore many will actively be seeking to hinder or inhibit thier success.
I wouldn't be surprised if you could littarly throw out a 1 coin contract as Decius suggests and see a fair number of players be willing to take it.... not because the 1 coin is valuable to them, but because making sure traders and merchants and crafters can operate successfully within the area is. Then you have the folks like the organization I'm a part of...who will simply go out and try to purge bandits where we find them because we don't stand for Evil-Doers who prey upon the innocent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's all well and good to say we'll have good stats as newbies, but how will a new character's weapons do against top tier armor nod how will newbie gear do against top tier weapons? It doesn't make much difference if a gank squad's equipment is good enough.
And if the equipment won't make much difference, then what's the point of it? Go to all the work of mastering weaponcraft only to find your weapons are hardly better than when you started out making them? That would be even worse.
The other thing with the "risk vs reward" is that someone/ a group out adventuring and hunting say... Dragons, will be equipped for dragon hunting, they'll have selected abilities to take for this purpose. Your gank squad will be equipped for killing other players, and they'll have selected abilities for this purpose.
People tend to say things like "well you shouldn't go out alone" which is fine if you're playing in peak time, but what about us players who aren't in American or European time zones? Not only will we have less people to ask for help, we also have lower pings. Yes, it means less killers will be around, but they'll pick the places they're most likely to find their preferred prey.
Jameow, I think you need to start thinking about equipment much less like WOW (e.g. +57 Sword of Uberness) and closer to something like Battlefield 2 (standard issue M4 Carbine). The power grade (including equipment) in PFO is supposed to be much shallower in PFO then it is in most MMO's.
There will be some gradiation to equipment....and believe me for folks that are serious about combat, they'll want to eek out every bit of advantage they can find...I know I will....and all weapons will have some consumable element to get the best performance.
I'm sure you'll run into some situations which will be unwinnable, but the stated intenet of the developers is that lower level characters will have some capacity to fight high level ones.
Doesn't mean you can't and won't die...in fact they expect it to be a fairly regular occurrance...and have death mechanics adjusted accordingly.
I think the one mindshift that people are going to have to get used to is you don't go walking off into the wilderness carrying everything you own. You go walking off with things you EXPECT to lose....and it's not that big a deal if you do...because most things are expected to be easly REPLACABLE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not thinking in WoW terms. I'm thinking the difference between a 2hsnded exceptional quality war mace and a training dagger. The difference between light leather and exceptional mithril plate mail. The difference between those same light leathers and a master wizard's high end spells, or a heavy crossbow bolt. Starting abilities against mastered ones.
I'm thinking UO t2a era equipment. More than wow, I'm not familiar with WoW.
I understand the intent of the system, but how often have you seen a system implemented and the holes in it almost immediately exploited? Thrn a series of work around patched end up nerfing various systems. I'm not complaining, I'm bringing them up NOW so they can be considered in the initial design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I start getting annoyed when people start throwing around "carebear" to describe anyone who doesn't want to pvp. There is already a full pvp player driven sandbox game. It's called Darkfall I quite enjoyed it until I started getting "accidentally" killed and looted at the bank, or when I stepped out of town by people so far above me in stats that I was dead before I even had a chance to react. They also had some anti griefing in place, it just didn't work.
There is already a full PVE sandbox game as well. It's called "Second Life."
PFO will not be Darkfall and it won't be Second Life. First off I would like you to list a single anti-griefing measure Darkfall has followed through on. From my experience their GMs are impotent. My clan actually got together with the GMs, and had them observe a fight between us and a WELL KNOWN hacker called Jet Boom from Welcome To Darkfall. The GMs saw him lag switching , the GMs acknowledged he was lag switching, the GMs BANNED him for lagswitching. The next day he was back in-game... lag switching. Apparently a 24 hour ban is sufficient for repeat offense hackers.
And let's talk about the afk macroing. Every city in the game was filled with people afk grinding thier spells and abilities, all day, and every day before the release of meditation. And to some extent afterwards. All it would have taken to deal with it is some admins going from town to town, handing out bans or resetting people's skill to 0, and most everyone would have stopped. Instead afk macroing became a requirement for any form of competitive PVP.
In fact the only griefer I knew of who ever did get the ban hammer was Goblin Shaman..... for real world item trading.
Dealing with griefers isn't something that was tried and failed. No honest attempt at trying was ever made. A clear vision to deal with griefing DOES set GW and PFO apart. It is not something to scoff at.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't mention hacking, I spoke only about in game mechanics. Guard towers in darkfall were meant to provide some protection in town and provide enough protection to make the game playable for weaker characters, yet not only could someone stroll into town and kill someone without setting off the towers, even when they did, they had time to dry loot- at the bank.
But that's not what I was getting at when I mentioned darkfall. The purpose of darkfall IS PVP. The purpose of PFO is meaningful human interaction. This is not the same thing as pvp. If you want a pvp oriented game, I said there already is one. Or there's planetside 2.
My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?
But that's a rhetorical question, right? I mean, of course a lot of us think they'll work, and we trust Ryan and the rest of the folks at Goblinworks when they say they're going to adapt to new situations as they arise to stamp out "griefing". But no one can answer that question until we're actually in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?But that's a rhetorical question, right? I mean, of course a lot of us think they'll work, and we trust Ryan and the rest of the folks at Goblinworks when they say they're going to adapt to new situations as they arise to stamp out "griefing". But no one can answer that question until we're actually in-game.
Which is why I'm bringing up the things I consider to be issues now, so that they can be taken into account in the design of the system and don't need to be added later. The more that is resolved before the mechanics are finalized, the easier it will be to make work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would throw out a 1 coin bounty, and a 1 coin assassination contract (assuming I suffer no penalties in addition to the cost of the contract).
Then I would buy a sandwich at the corner bakery...
1 coin? My first instinct was to say it isn't worth it. But on a slow day? Ya, just for giggles, why not.
Mind you we haven't worked out our pricing program. The general idea is to put a high enough cost on contracts that we won't be just giving them away like candy. But when you factor in things multipliers that decrease the price, like the target being a confirmed griefer or part of a targeted company or someone who has cheated us, or all of the above, then you might actually end up seeing some fairly cheap contracts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?
If GW is serious about them than yes. The problem with Darkfall is there was only infrequent half-hearted attempts to deal with the problem on an infrequent basis. ANY system can work as long as the devs are working actively to address problems instead of literally doing nothing for years at a time.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I would throw out a 1 coin bounty, and a 1 coin assassination contract (assuming I suffer no penalties in addition to the cost of the contract).
Then I would buy a sandwich at the corner bakery...
1 coin? My first instinct was to say it isn't worth it. But on a slow day? Ya, just for giggles, why not.
Mind you we haven't worked out our pricing program. The general idea is to put a high enough cost on contracts that we won't be just giving them away like candy. But when you factor in things multipliers that decrease the price, like the target being a confirmed griefer or part of a targeted company or someone who has cheated us, or all of the above, then you might actually end up seeing some fairly cheap contracts.
I didn't mention how much I would pay for the sandwich. If you want premium food and atmosphere, you expect to pay a premium price, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?If GW is serious about them than yes. The problem with Darkfall is there was only infrequent half-hearted attempts to deal with the problem on an infrequent basis. ANY system can work as long as the devs are working actively to address problems instead of literally doing nothing for years at a time.
That assumes they have the time, resources and manpower to do it. Vanguard was bought by Sony and the diplomacy system didn't have a single dev assigned to it. It took months to clear out all the bugs, but it never recovered from the bad wrap it got on release.
If the problems are with the mechanics, which are the only ones I've been addressing, a major overhaul could be needed, and that's a n issue in itself which also comes down to time and resources, as well as the patience of the players to wait for fixes, lose too many people early on and you've already lost, there's no emotional attachment to the game and people won't be interested in giving it another go if they find something else, and there ARE other sandboxes in development.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That assumes they have the time, resources and manpower to do it.My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?If GW is serious about them than yes. The problem with Darkfall is there was only infrequent half-hearted attempts to deal with the problem on an infrequent basis. ANY system can work as long as the devs are working actively to address problems instead of literally doing nothing for years at a time.
Every game has the time and the manpower to do it if the have even a single active employee. The issue is how high of a PRIORITY is it to them. Are the going to be devoting people to making fluff, graphical updates, and balancing the 1vs.1 PVP performance of sorcerers and rouges while major errors and abuses are present in the way players interact in this game?
Whereas some games state these abuses are not a major issue and sometimes even applaud the creativity of people breaking the system, GoblinWorks and this community have clearly stated they don't find griefing creative or cute, and it will not be tolerated by either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It also depends how long it takes to find a solution that doesn't break something else or harm some other working mechanic. Generally from what I've seen the first reaction is a nerf, just moves the problem onto some other system, class or mechanic. It's the quickest and easiest way to fix
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The cheap and lazy way isn't a nerf, it's a ban. The right way is a combination of rehabilitation and ultimatum.
It's not the fact that exploitable bugs existed that was the problem, it was the fact that there were no sugnificant consequences for abusing that exploit. A simple "you lose everything that you gained through PvP for the last two weeks, your victims get their losses from you back. If there is a next time that you intentionally abuse again, you will be permanently banned. If you believe that this treatment is unfair, you can appeal to the appeals process. Be advised that the appeals board may impose additional sanctions for frivolous appeals." notice requires only a moderate amount of logging and several minutes of time to implement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm still talking about mechanics. You can't ban someone for killing people using in game mechanics and not bugs. It's about getting the system right in the first place.
Like when samurai empire came out for uo and suddenly you had stealth archers that could kill people with insane critical hits and no chance of retaliation. No bugs, no exploits, no hacks. Pure fault of the mechanics as designed. Why? Because the situation was not anticipated, despite it being the Function of the new abilities.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I can totally say "the archery mechanics are declared broken and abusing them is considered exploiting a bug". I wouldn't do something like that ex post facto, and I would be rather more lenient on people who were using an ability that somehow slipped through quality control and testing.
Proper testing drastically reduces the likelihood that something like that happens in production. The players best at finding broken exploits can be recruited into the test environment with the promise of getting a head start on the skills that will be needed tomorrow in production.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I used that as an example because it actually happened. I am reassured by your statements, but I'm also not one of the people who won't play because of open pvp- my concern is that the system in place to prevent griefing and random killing will be worked around, just moving the problem somewhere wlse and ruining the player experience for people who aren't interested in focusing their skills and equipment on pvp. I suppose that even if you become broke, destitute and lose all your stuff there will be areas to get stuff to get back into what you want to do, but from what I've seen in other open pvp systems, whether you have systems or not, you tend to end up with areas where the focus of those killers run amok and petty much just cause frustrating.
This system sounds interesting, and I really hope it works out, but I'll still be concerned until I've seen what happens on release/open beta. As even with testing, until we get those kinds of players, we won't see how they work around the system, it how they just make it no fun to be in those areas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It also depends how long it takes to find a solution that doesn't break something else or harm some other working mechanic. Generally from what I've seen the first reaction is a nerf, just moves the problem onto some other system, class or mechanic. It's the quickest and easiest way to fix
I've had a few brief comments on and suggestions about how to create a pretty solid system from the start in another topic. Feel free to weigh in with input and suggestions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But that's not what I was getting at when I mentioned darkfall. The purpose of darkfall IS PVP. The purpose of PFO is meaningful human interaction. This is not the same thing as pvp. If you want a pvp oriented game, I said there already is one. Or there's planetside 2.
My question remains will the currently planned mechanisms actually work?
I do not believe you can have meaningful interaction without the possibility of PvP. Could one of the anti-pvp crowd explain what a sandbox game with meaningful interaction looks like in a totally PvE game? Thats a legit question, because I can not picture it.
As for will the planned mechanics work, no one can answer that until we see how it works out. I personally believe the plan as it stands has a good chance of working. I also believe Goblinworks has the balls required to make the sometimes less popular choices that will make it work. If you have your doubts about PvP because you have not seen PvP work in the past... well I just dont think you have seen PvP done right yet, and I really hope that PFO is where you seen it done right.
I hope those in doubt give PFO a chance at some point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just think there are a lot of Pathfinder fans like me who would love to be able to actually explore Golarion, but who don't enjoy non-consensual PvP.
Absolutely. And you will get to explore Golarion. I really think attacks on individual unwitting explorers will be rare. The fact that it can happen may get your heart racing occasionally, but you'll still have plenty of alone time to explore. The world is going to be huge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think one of the things that people will have to get used to is playing differently than how they play a single player game. You will have to play smarter and be aware of your surroundings. Going AFK in the woods may be dangerous... which it should be.
One thing that frustrates me about this whole discussion is how surprised/shocked/outraged people seem. I would like people to understand that the games core requires PvP to be part of it. Without it the game as designed just will not work.
As for exploring the world and not wanting the PvP... we are in the Riverlands... a pretty rough and tumble area. I think PvP is right in line with the area.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing that frustrates me about this whole discussion is how surprised/shocked/outraged people seem. I would like people to understand that the games core requires PvP to be part of it. Without it the game as designed just will not work.
The game system this is named for, Pathfinder, is not a pvp game. Its a cooperative rpg where you get together with yer friends and go kill a bnch of npc's, solve some puzzles and get free loot.
It should be expected some of the people who play the PnP game wanted a PnP conversion, not "meaningful pvp interaction" which based on there previous experience with pvp = greifing.
I am suprised you wouldn't expect some of these people to be surprised/shocked/outraged especially when the first response they get many times is a negative greifer response from a fanboi instead of a far more diplomatic, respectful and thought out response along the lines of "We respect your opinion and we understand you may have some bad experiences with pvp in previous games and we'd like to assure you that the devs intend to do everything they can to insure that the pvp in PFO is done in a way to provide a meaningful and positive play experience in lieu of the griefing found in most games and we wish you'd consider sticking around and help us all achieve that goal"
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing that frustrates me about this whole discussion is how surprised/shocked/outraged people seem. I would like people to understand that the games core requires PvP to be part of it. Without it the game as designed just will not work.The game system this is named for, Pathfinder, is not a pvp game. Its a cooperative rpg where you get together with yer friends and go kill a bnch of npc's, solve some puzzles and get free loot.
If this is causing them heartburn then its going to be a freaking forest fire around here when people realize that they can't be their favorite class/race/archetype combo that they play in the table top version. People forget this is a licensed product and not a direct translation.
Just for the record I currently run 2 PnP campaigns, play in another and occasionally play in Pathfinder Society. I do know the roots of the game, but I have also read the blog so I know what to expect. I believe the true reason for surprise/shock/outrage is bad expectations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People tend to say things like "well you shouldn't go out alone" which is fine if you're playing in peak time, but what about us players who aren't in American or European time zones? Not only will we have less people to ask for help, we also have lower pings. Yes, it means less killers will be around, but they'll pick the places they're most likely to find their preferred prey.
I agree. I work rotating shifts so hard to set up a time to get together with the same group. Guilds help but tend to be in the same time zones so still a problem. I got use to running solo and like it.
What I haven't seen yet [sure it is coming] is having the ability to team up on line for specific quests with strangers. From there it makes it easier to see if a guild the others are in might be one I might want to join.Like the idea that what can be "robbed" is only one item. As long as it is not for each member of the gang that jumped and killed me. However it is a really a pain when you spend hours getting that special item [like ore] only to get jumped and it is stolen. Then come back to get jumped again after hours spent getting special again.
If they can keep that from happening then may consider playing.
I had a friend turn me onto this recently. Been pretty bored with most MMO offerings -- had hope for GW2 but they really disappointed me when they backed out of their "no gear grind" stance.
Anyways, just wanted to add my name to the "thrilled with the idea of meaningful PvP" list. If you guys can make it work the way you've laid out here... YAY. Go go consequences and players having to rely on one another (for something other than grinding gear) again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi Gnora,
I started a thread HERE that makes an attempt to address the timezone issues.
Post there, and if we get enough people voicing opinions/concerns, we might start our own guild or pick one or two major guilds to jump into. This is one way for people in odd timezones to ensure they have company when logged in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing that frustrates me about this whole discussion is how surprised/shocked/outraged people seem. I would like people to understand that the games core requires PvP to be part of it. Without it the game as designed just will not work.The game system this is named for, Pathfinder, is not a pvp game. Its a cooperative rpg where you get together with yer friends and go kill a bnch of npc's, solve some puzzles and get free loot.
It should be expected some of the people who play the PnP game wanted a PnP conversion, not "meaningful pvp interaction" which based on there previous experience with pvp = greifing.
I am suprised you wouldn't expect some of these people to be surprised/shocked/outraged especially when the first response they get many times is a negative greifer response from a fanboi instead of a far more diplomatic, respectful and thought out response along the lines of "We respect your opinion and we understand you may have some bad experiences with pvp in previous games and we'd like to assure you that the devs intend to do everything they can to insure that the pvp in PFO is done in a way to provide a meaningful and positive play experience in lieu of the griefing found in most games and we wish you'd consider sticking around and help us all achieve that goal"
I think that is a fair criticism of some portion of responses, but I will say that there are a few that are trying very hard to deal with the largely poorly thought-out and completely misinformed gut-reaction posts about this controversial issue by people new to the community.
Some of those same do-gooders have slipped up once or twice due to the incredible patience required to do this. The information is out there for anybody that cares enough to look for it.
For the others, I think it's important that we get more of the well-informed community to help provide links and polite responses. If we can catch the threads early, we can direct the posters to the various threads in which we've already had the same conversation, in which they could post any further questions after reading it. This will lessen the burden.
Summersnow, I believe you are a newcomer to the community that had a lot of questions coming in. We could sure use your fresh perspective (and patience ;). Would you help us more adequately address newcomers' concerns?
EDIT: Indeed, I believe Ryan started this thread with his OP for just this reason. Let's try to keep this thread a clean, polite space to which we can direct all newcomers that have this question!
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the way I see the PVP issue there are two extremes and a middle ground. I actually consider myself firmly in middle ground and have even heard quite a few PVP extremists who don't understand my position accuse me of being a "carebear."
The problem is both sides extremists consider everyone who doesn't hold their perception of the PVP vs. PVE issue an extremist of the other side. This is why I hold PVE extremists (Who I have a not so nice name for.) in almost as much disdain as PVP extremist, AKA griefers. Both are poisonous ideologies that prevent games from achieving the vision many of us in the middle ground want. Griefers by personally destroying the community required and... PVE extremists by diverting attention from, or even petitioning for the removal of the game mechanics needed to achieve our vision.
Here are the two extremes, and the middle ground:
What Griefers Want, And How PVE Extremists View PVP
Want to enjoy exploration, taking in the scenery, or even a little roleplay with your friends? THEN GO TO BACK TO WOW CAREBEAR!!! Welcome to PFO!!! This game is about killing! If the developers didn't want to kill, teabag, and send taunting PMs to everyone we see THEN THEY WOULDN'T HAVE MADE THIS A PVP GAME!!! This is like Halo Online! Whoever gets the most kills wins! And if anyone complains about it THEN THEY DON'T BELONG HERE! If new players can't handle getting ganked 50 times every time they log in THEN THEY ARE TOO WEAK TO PLAY THIS GAME!!!
One shotting every n00b who joins this game 50,000 time and stealing their copper daggers is my rightful reward for playing longer! Screw those casuals!!!!
What PVE Extremist Want
I don't want ANYTHING forced on me in this game! I don't pay for this game to be someone's punching bag. I want to get on talk to people, build something together, run some quests, and and talk to my friends. I don't want to be standing in a meadow RPing with some friends when a bunch of snot nosed brats come and kill us then taunt us in PMs. I don't want to lose my hard work to some jerk griefer who kills me while I'm headed to the next town. They need to take non- consensual PVP out of the game so we don't have to deal with that. Or give us a safe area or server where we never have to worry about PVP. Of course once we get that we don't want the developers wasting all their time on PVP areas and content. And we don't want the PVPers to get all the good resources and items!!! We should make just as much profit as them! Because we are just as important!!!
What Great Legionnaires, GoblinWorks, and Most of The PFO Community Want
We want meaningful player interaction. We want a real virtual community complete with politics, crime, and war. We absolutely do not want every player running around killing everyone without meaningful consequences but we don't want every encounter to be scripted and predictable. We don't want tiny companies that are barely active controlling all the coolest building spots because they got there first. We don't want all our enemies to not have to fight us if they decline our duel invitation. We want to build virtual kingdoms and conquer our enemies. We want to have the thrill of winning a random confrontation or escaping with our cargo intact which can't happen if we don't run the risk of dying in random encounters or getting robbed by bandits. PVP isn't all we want to do. We PVE, build things together, and RP with our friends just like PVE extremists. But ultimately we want our accomplishments to mean something. That awesome fort isn't meaningful if it never comes under siege. Our awesome army means nothing if there is nothing to defend against, and nothing to conquer. Just killing NPCs that respawn after we leave doesn't cut it. We want the ability to expand our borders and threat of losing our lands. We want to fight for real ideals or gain real power. We want to see our actions change this world.
That can't happen without PVP, but it can't happen if people treat this game like a giant slayer match on Halo. It can't happen if campers have everyone afraid to leave the starter areas, and PVP is overrun with abusive behavior. It can't happen if all the economic power is hidden in safe area, and the developers aren't dedicated solely and entirely to a vision of meaningful player interaction. Thankfully they are which is why people who are tired of the extremism and ready for an authentic and immersive experience are flocking here to PFO.
I am wholly and entirely dedicated to this vision. I will be on the front lines when the griefers and RPKers come to destroy it. I will make sure this game stays a true community. That anti-social behavior is not the norm, and murderers hide their heads in the shadows where they belong. Those who cannot be redeemed will be driven back or even destroyed.
Just as the griefers will be the threat then, the PVE extremists are the threat now. You seek to destroy our vision before it even has a chance to succeed. You are no less of a threat to this community, and what we are working to build here than the griefers. So I will be no less steadfast in defending against your invasive ideologies. I welcome you to put aside your prejudices and join our vision but do expect us to water it down for you.
I realize you don't see yourselves as invasive but what you do is no less selfish or unreasonable than if we were to go to Second Life and petition them to force them to Force Open World PVP on everyone. Or to change that game's vision and tie up considerable development time building a PVP sever. This is the ONLY game offering what we want. Don't ruin it for us.
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I don't mind PvP so long as it's not so common that I can't walk 5 steps without someone trying to kill me, and to have the ability to run away from a fight I don't want to partake in, though this would need to be balanced just right so a good ambush might catch me but travelling smart or a poor ambush and I can escape. I always hated other mmos where if I got into a fight I was committed because there was never any point in trying to escape because even melee monsters would continue to hit you while running.
I want an oppotunity to take pride in surviving, not winning but surviving, it would be cool to set records for living the longest without dying or surviving against impossible odds, escaping the unescapable, etc.
Also I want a choice when looting, if someone kills me, then I won't care about killing them in return unless I can recover what they stole from me, or if they are really greifing me.
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Been looking through the thread, wondering weather or no to support Pathfinder Online or not.
I see the PvE people ask if there could be a separate server just for PvE so they can enjoy the game too.
I see the PvP people say play it our way or go away.
Then there is the middle people, I found the post by some of these to be the worst out of the lot. very rude.
If the community is so split and rude like this now, and the people voicing what they like and don't like are being told off, Then I am sorry I don't think I can support this game with a community like this.
My opinion, I am not a fan of PvP and would rather a separate PvE server, but I was willing to give the game a shot and see how the 'anti PvP mechanics' played out.
The 'Player looting' is a real issue with me, I do not think this should be in at all, but was willing to wait and see the final say before making to much of a judgement on that..
But the worst so far, is the community especially some people in this topic, is turning me away.
And Yes I have seen the issues here work their way into Pathfinder at the Table-Top RPG session I go to and split the community and destroy the Table Top game as well ..
A lot of people have a lot of Strong opinions, Pathfinder is a game many many people around the world cherish and I can see the frustrations on all sides when it comes to Pathfinder Online.
Many people really love the Pathfinder world, and have been waiting so long for a virtual Pathfinder Online world to come about and able to experience it in there own time and style.
To many Pathfinder is more than just a RPG game, It is an escape, a place they dream of, and to many this dream is being torn down and striped away.
I just hope Goblinworks and Paizo Know what they are really doing with Pathfinder, limiting the game acceptability to so many players. It should not be taken lightly or selfishly.
:/
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't worry too much about the community, forum debates everywhere tend to get heated, but in the end everyone is just looking to see the game succeed. Disagreements happen, and I've seen far worse than this, and at this early stage there's a great deal more debate, because so little is set in stone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Then I am sorry I don't think I can support this game with a community like this...
I found the discussion here very mature in comparison to the boards for WoW, Aion, Rift, Conan and Diablo III.
What you should try to understand is, that some here have the feeling that GoWo is building their dream game. A game like none before.
Now a lot of people come here with opinions that may be labled as "not very informed" and try to tell anyone how this game should be exactly like WoW.
Tiring, to say the least.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The PvP people say it can't happen that way.And so does GW.
Of course it can happen. Hundreds of games have managed it, so it's not like it's some sort of impossible pipe dream. GW have said that they aren't going to make it happen, which is their prerogative.
Some people are disappointed in that decision.
Personally, I'll wait and see how it plays out in practice, even if I'm not particular hopeful. No one else has managed an "open PvP" system that actually works as intended, so I'm not expecting GW to pull a miracle.
But hey, I hope they will prove me wrong.