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I'm working out the kinks of my new setting, and I'm hoping you guys have interesting ideas about how to handle the following:
Say you have a culture 1 on continent A, which believes Apollo is the sun god.
And there's culture 2 on continent B, which believes Ra is the sun god.
There's only one sun.
How does this work? I've got a couple of ideas;
- One god is the real sun god, the other an impostor.
- One god is the real sun god, the other is actually just an avatar/lesser aspect/important minion of the real sun god.
- They're the same god, just known by a different name.
- Neither is the true sun god; the sun works fine without gods. Why are they claiming to run the sun?
- The sun has multiple patron gods who work together most of the time, but perhaps occasionally squabble (eclipse). Maybe they trade turns taking care of it during the year, and when it's their turn, take care of their own continent better than the other guy (seasons).
- All sun gods are mere reflections of the sun itself, which is too mystical to be directly known by mortals.
This is of course a general principle; it applies to the sun but also to other macro-phenomena like the earth, harvest, trade and death.
Do you have other ideas on how this can be spun?
"Neither is the true sun god; the sun works fine without gods. Why are they claiming to run the sun?"
If god's are dependent upon worship to survive in your setting, that pretty much sums up why they would pretend they are needed for the sun to keep on shining. If that's the case, that would explain why in different areas different gods are claiming to do the same thing; I'd treat those gods as rivals should their followers ever meet.
If your gods don't need worship, I'd probably go with either the same god, just worshiped different ways or with them being different aspects of the same god. If your gods are "closer to earth" and routinely interact with the world besides their clerics/paladins then I'd go with the alternate aspects. If they are more distant, I'd go with the same god period.
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There is also the possibility that both are actually just an avatar/lesser aspect/important minion of the real sun god, who is someone entirely different..
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There is also the possibility that both are actually just an avatar/lesser aspect/important minion of the real sun god, who is someone entirely different..
Along these lines, they might also be gods of different aspects of the sun itself.
Kind of like how Golarion's NG Sarenrae and CE Nergal are almost opposites but are both still tied into the sun.
Taking Threeshade's suggestion to the max, there's also that 3.X deities book that used a sun goddess as an example of a monotheistic cosmology model. IIRC there were multiple approaches to spinning off different aspects of her and her worship.
They could do a relay -- one guy drives the sun when it's over Egypt and one guy drives it when it's over Greece.
Or they all are Sun/Moon/Earth/trade/whatever gods. Why couldn't multiple deities of the same phenomenon exist?
In my world, each culture has their own religion, not just their own favored deity or two. So, the elves worship this magical network with five aspects (Sun, Moon, Stars, Air, Plants), the humans in the relevant area worship a dualistic sun god, the dwarves worship a pantheon of deities relevant to them, and acknowledge anopposing pantheon, the gnomes have a similar religion to the dwarves, but with less focus on opposing deities and more related to gnomey things, orcs are animists, and so on and so forth. Some religions deny the truth of others, like most modern major religions, and some are very mutable and open to adopting or at least acknowledging aspects of other belief systems, like most religions in ancient times.
Which one is right? What gods are real? I don't know or really care. I keep the gods mysterious.
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Or they all are Sun/Moon/Earth/trade/whatever gods. Why couldn't multiple deities of the same phenomenon exist?
Well, the question is, how does that work?
Suppose Apollo is angry and wants to take the sun away. Ra doesn't want that to happen. What happens now?
If Apollo and Ra both claim to have created/be the sun, are they both right? Only one of them? Are they just different representations of the same god, as perceived by different cults?
I haven't really decided what to do, I hope to hear more interesting ideas :)
In my setting, I have 4 deities (two good, two evil) that form the more or less all-encompassing belief system of the world, different races favor one or the other, and each has a number of lesser deities associated with them that patron a given race.
Humans openly worship the Good God and Good Goddess equally. Elves favor the Good Goddess, dwarves favor the Good God. Worship of the Evil God and Godess is taboo and in the latter case illegal. The Underdark races (duergar, drow) and goblinoids worship the Evil God, while the Evil Goddess' worshippers are limited to scattered, secret cults.
All of these races acknowledge the existence of these four high deities, but their views on them may not be the same. For example, surface races believe that the Evil God created duergar, drow, and hobgoblins in a jealous attempt to mimick his Good brother's creations, while the evil races see the Good God as a cowardly usurper who stole the surface from their god.
In games I run, different cultures know the gods by different names. Their beliefs and how they worship is different as well, so the primary alignment of a god's followers may vary from region to region.
Or they all are Sun/Moon/Earth/trade/whatever gods. Why couldn't multiple deities of the same phenomenon exist?Well, the question is, how does that work?
Suppose Apollo is angry and wants to take the sun away. Ra doesn't want that to happen. What happens now?
They'll have tolearn to work together like all siblings. They need to compromise, like dimming the sun a little :D
Or they all are Sun/Moon/Earth/trade/whatever gods. Why couldn't multiple deities of the same phenomenon exist?Well, the question is, how does that work?
Suppose Apollo is angry and wants to take the sun away. Ra doesn't want that to happen. What happens now?
Apollo cast a disc of shadow over the entirety of Greece, turning it into a eternal night, but Egypt is still good and Ra's people is fine.
But then, I don't like the "multiple gods with the same aspect" option. I like the following option more:
- They're the same god, just known by a different name.
Having multiple deities for the same aspect keeps them in check; if one god wants to take the sun away, the other one doesnt, so the sun remains. Of course, this doesn't quite work if the deities are tied to a specific region.
Perhaps they're are both simply Gods of Light and Fire, and are naturally associated with the sun even though they have no direct control over it.
- They could also jointly be the Sun: either one alone doesn't cut it.
- Or they're each a God over an aspect of the Sun: One is the God of the Sun's light, while the other is the God of the Sun's heat.
funny thing is, in actual greek mythology, the greeks believed there gods and the Egyptian gods were one and the same. the greek gods had escaped to egypt to hide from the monster/titan typhon. there they disguised themselves as they egyptian gods. ancient greeks actually considered egypt as a sort of sister country, just something consider.
The sun is a powerful, primal, titan. It's children, the sun gods, keep it in check. Anger one, and they will let their parent smite you with a white hot solar flare, or channel their bound parent's power to the same end. If the moon/night deity defeats the sun deity, you get an eclipse that can last indefinitely.
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There is also the possibility that both are actually just an avatar/lesser aspect/important minion of the real sun god, who is someone entirely different..Along these lines, they might also be gods of different aspects of the sun itself.
Greek mythology itself reflects this idea. Selene was the titaness of the moon, but the moon was associated also with Artemis and Hecate; together they were sometimes shown as representatives of different phases of the moon (waxing, full, waning; maiden, mother, crone).
Helios was the sun titan, but Apollo was also associated with daylight. And then you have Aurora, the goddess of dawn, who was entirely separate (oddly, there was no god of sunset that I recall).
So in a world where you have gods with the same portfolios, certainly they could represent different aspects. After all with the examples, Ra and Apollo were both associated with the sun, but they also had different associations as well.
Other things... the sun could be an object that the gods are in charge of protecting, rather than "running" per se. The sun's kind of important so having more than one god be responsible for it is a good idea. But if they fought for dominating it, that could be interesting fodder for a plotline.
In our campaign, we have both, and the sea between the continents is inter dimensional, so the gods are separate. We also have a half dozen other pantheons, each of which also has a sun god.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/panakos-lab
Dot.
In games I run, different cultures know the gods by different names. Their beliefs and how they worship is different as well, so the primary alignment of a god's followers may vary from region to region.
I've been striving for the same thing, though some races claim certain deities as their patrons.
At least you're not including the Norse or Japanese myths where the sun is a goddess - that would make things very interesting.
Of course, I'm always curious about how true mythologies actually would work. After all, in most myths the sun is a chariot or barge, so theoretically the sun ought not to be round.
I'd just recommend using either 'same deity by different names' or 'different aspects' bit. If you want to go whole hog on the mythology, you'd have to consider whether the sun actually looks like a chariot pulled by fiery horses or a glowing barge or whatever.
First, talking about the sun, because that's the ur-example that we've been given. Apply the following to any natural phenomena.
An incomplete idea of mine based on this conversation that I've not seen clearly defined/mentioned yet: the gods don't directly oversee and are not responsible for the physical side of the physical natural phenomena, but rather are responsible for the spiritual side of said things.
Thus, the flaming ball of plasma is irrelevant to a sun god, as they are far more interested in the spiritual gateway to the positive energy and fire planes that the sun represents and the effects of the sun in such a state on undead: that's why sunlight affects so many undead so strongly, and others are vulnerable to fire - the sun's big magic-netic [instead of magnetic] field causes a faint amount of the traits to be twisted up in many undead within the area and trigger an allergic reaction... also "burning" when touched by positive energy - this is also why said undead don't react to, say, the daylight spell - it's not directly connected to either the plane of fire or the positive energy plane.
Incidentally, said concept could be the seed for gods of undead attempting to seal away the positive energy aspects and/or even the fire aspects in order to allow undead to exist in the daylight with minimal, if any, effects.
Now, that doesn't mean that the gods are completely unaware or uninterested in the physical side of things: in fact the opposite. What is done in the flesh and with the physical has grave consequences on the spiritual (and vice versa sometimes), but rather it's a question of causality: a "god of the sun" is a god of the sun insomuch as the sun as a physical body has spiritual results due to physical effect on the area of material plane in which said god rules and has sway. Thus a god need not lie to be honestly called the "god of the sun" and the "giver of life" and so on: literally, they guard/sustain/supply the spiritual orb that keeps in check the rampaging spirits of the dead on the physical world, and permits positive energy to leak little bits at a time into the material world (thus allowing life to flourish).
Depending on your interpretation of what a "god" is, if they are finite enough, this would handily explain the need for multiple sun gods: no single god is enough to maintain this delicate balance across the whole world (although they could be so finite in your view that they don't have the power to do anything about, with, or for the sun).
The same is true of agriculture ("harvests" means life, worshipers, and is an important part of mortal interaction), love, the earth, lightning, the ocean, and so on.
For dependent fueled-by-worship (or created-by-worship) gods could be the spiritual reflection of such things who keep the worst of the spiritual side of omniverse's ills at bay by their tremendous power, regardless of their alignment (fear, intimidation, and threatening to unleash such forces can be a useful tool, just as much as desiring the best for all). Independent gods could still demand worship by virtue of the fact that they deserve recognition for what they're doing for the mortals (nevermind the fact that they may be doing so for themselves as well, depending on your choices).
Beyond just keeping the ills at bay, they could also be providing good things. The sun gods, for instance, work with the earth, plant, and harvest gods to create an over-all effect across the otherwise life-barren planet to allow living things to exist.
This situation can arise regardless of dependent or independent gods: by chance (accidental merging of spiritual/planar elements due to similar material ones) or special creation (the gods specifically overlapped similar elements of physical and spiritual to balance and control the environment for mortal life and allow it), or a combination of both (the gods formed the spiritual while the physical formed on its own and, discovering each other and the physical world, blended and overlapped the two on purpose even as it happened automatically), or something else, any of these could have come about and now be the way of things.
As far as creator deities go, you really don't need anything other than a creature that can grant wishes or use miracles. It might take quite some time, but even Solars could be creator-gods, with enough time and effort, based on your handling of their wish spell-likes alone (and, according to the GMG and Legacy of Fire, Paizo recommends letting wish spell-likes do a bit more/have more leeway than the spell).
Also, please pardon me for tooting my own horn, but I've had these kinds of ideas buzzing in my head for a while, now, so you may find nifty ideas there, that you like, even if it doesn't directly answer this question or directly help you.
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The real heart of the problem is what happens when the worshippers of the 2 Sun gods meet.
Thus, any explanation concerning the relation between Sun and Gods is ok.
Because no matter what the Godly truth is, it is the actions (and reactions) of the Gods' mortal flocks that will impact the PCs (as well as the other inhabitants of the world).
Each religion will want to survive first, increase its power second (like any being). Thus both will try to ensure they come on top. This can come through union with the other (ie, your Sun god is in fact my Sun god, let us be brothers in the faith) or through destruction of the other (ie, you Sun god is a false one, let the real Sun god give me the strength to exterminate your heretical and misguided beliefs, either through conversion or death).
Lots of fun and interesting times ensue.
And in the end, there can be only one Sun God(dess).
The real heart of the problem is what happens when the worshippers of the 2 Sun gods meet.
Thus, any explanation concerning the relation between Sun and Gods is ok.
Because no matter what the Godly truth is, it is the actions (and reactions) of the Gods' mortal flocks that will impact the PCs (as well as the other inhabitants of the world).
Each religion will want to survive first, increase its power second (like any being). Thus both will try to ensure they come on top. This can come through union with the other (ie, your Sun god is in fact my Sun god, let us be brothers in the faith) or through destruction of the other (ie, you Sun god is a false one, let the real Sun god give me the strength to exterminate your heretical and misguided beliefs, either through conversion or death).
Lots of fun and interesting times ensue.
And in the end, there can be only one Sun God(dess).
While I agree that this would make some great adventure or campaign setting points in many campaigns (and I love the Highlander-esque reference), I don't necessarily think that this would be the only logical outcome (the most likely, perhaps, given people, but not the only outcome).
Given a singular cosmological whole (i.e. only one astral plane or equivalent all-encompassing "place where spirits and other planes go" other than the material), it's actually quite likely that two gods of the same spiritual element will recognize each other and, if they both have the same alignment, while not necessarily agreeing with each other (see Iomedae and Erastil for examples of similar alignments with disagreeing views), could certainly understand and recognize the other as a valid entity (especially if both were good) and thus may well encourage their faithful to react peaceably with the other faith. Even if their ethical outlooks were opposed, if they are good, they would likely encourage their faithful not to destroy the other one (though they may possibly find it necessary circumvent it).
This, of course presumes deities with servants that interact regularly with the world and a singular astral-type plane.
If the gods are extremely distant, like in Eberron, than The black raven's idea becomes much more likely. However, unless the general power-level of the setting is moderately low (again, like Eberron), the angels and other celestial beings who guide the mortals from their place amongst the cosmos according to their alignments would generally council peace for fellow worshipers of good gods (or gods that specifically associate with a given deity's alignment and/or motivations, in certain cases).
Forgotten Realms introduced the concept of multiple astral-like planes in 3rd edition with the Spirit Realm of Rashemen acting as a different astral plane altogether... on the same material world. It specifies in the Player's Guide to Faerun that Rashemen runs on a different astral system (and the Manual of the Planes details the most basic outline of what a Spirit Realm might look like).
Given that an omniverse can exist in such a fashion, than yes, multiple religions can, in fact, exist and strongly disagree, even if by alignment, theme, and elements they would seem the same on the surface.
One of the really interesting ideas is combining various things, like one small example below.
Example Omniverse with Various Astrals, slightly Distant (but still highly active) Gods, and regardless of setting power level.
Perhaps the various astrals (spiritual-realms) existed first. To the creator(s) [god(s){?}], this, then is the "base" reality - the equivalent of the material to mortals. They than began dabbling and creating on a minor alternate realities where they had power to create or destroy (forming the spiritual realms as they did), and finding one particularly important realm that deeply impacted the fortunes of the spiritual (and vice versa) a strange place that they created called the "material". Unbeknownst (or partially benknownst?) to them, this demiplane that they were creating took on a life of its own and began blending with identical demiplanes created by other gods in other spiritual realms. Each of these worlds needed a strong source of light and warmth (the sun), plants to eat, and populous creatures to fill it. These various "material" world-creations of the gods blended together and created an enormous whole greater than the sum of its parts. The gods reside on the spiritual planes, but their servants explore the material (to a point).
Now, because different parts of the Material plane are connected to different spiritual realms (the segments of the material) different gods come to be worshiped in different areas and radically different religions take hold in different areas... all (or at least many) of which are (mostly) true - or at least the could be, if you choose this way, too, for your world.
In any event, the gods may have no idea that other gods exist, and possibly are even unable to notice this "false" religion (other spiritual existence), thus giving rise to the impression of "false" deities being worshiped and an insistence on worshiping the "right" way. This can be especially difficult with multiple gods of truth, honor, and/or knowledge, each of which claim absolute knowledge, mastery, truth, and honor (and, in general, are correct in their claim) would find it difficult to believe that there is anything beyond their purview, and would believe the other worshipers who claimed to be worshiping the truth would instead be worshiping lies... after all, they can't perceive the "obviously false" alternate spiritual reality described (after all, when they look around them, that's obviously not how it works, and when they search for this other reality, there's nothing there).
Incidentally, this would make it appear as if belief systems generate power just as well as actual gods, even if they don't.
This can work even if a god can perceive things on the material plane, as they can see others worship (seemingly) false gods.
And the mutable nature of mortal spirits and the nature of the material could allow that for a worshiper of a god - regardless of where they are - to have their soul generally head to the spiritual/astral-type plane that they are most "aligned" or "in tune" with.
Anyway, that's just one idea for how such things might work!
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Japan's emperor is supposed to be descended from a sun goddess. She is also the goddess of mirrors. This is telling. The Sun chariot, and the bright thing in the sky of game worlds, draw from a primal titan outside the material plane. Nothing save an Asbestos Golem could be anywhere near the thing. The moon deities have a similar dominion over Lycanthropes.
An all out fight between Sun gods would be pointless, beyond melting the rock for miles around, and they know it.
How does Golarion Handle this? I know that both Saraenrae and Nurgal claim dominion over the Sun.
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I usually run worlds where if the gods come into conflict, they fight it out, usually through proxies. Directly snuffing the sun yourself would upset the balance of power, like if the Soviet Union nuked west Berlin, or the US invaded Cuba during the Cold War.
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How does Golarion Handle this? I know that both Saraenrae and Nurgal claim dominion over the Sun.
As partially mentioned earlier, the gods of Golarion are (sometimes) associated with phenomena, but are not (always) considered the same as said phenomena.
So in both Nurgal's and Sarenrae's cases, they don't claim "dominion" over the sun, per se, but rather they claim affinity or association with it.
Effectively, they are both gods of fire and light, and the brilliance and heat of the sun reflects these shared characteristics. The reason Asmodeus is not considered a sun god, even though he's a fire god, is because he has no association with light. Nurgal, Sarenrae, and Asmodeus, if you want to give them a once-over.
Two really quick points:
- I'm not trying to say, "this is how you should do it" with my posts, I'm just offering you a few ways you could blend or twist things to allow for similar events.
- One other interesting thing about the multiple-astrals world idea that I presented above is the fact that, to the gods (and their servants), it would look like those who don't worship properly simply cease to exist. In other words, when a god from sees a creature who worships a god from die, the god from notices that the soul doesn't enter the afterlife. That means a mortal's soul, no matter how good or just, who worships "false gods" looks like they simply vanish from existence. This would be rather abhorrent to most good and neutral gods and even many evil ones (as it would be a net loss for the evil gods' soul-forges), meaning that this would be a serious reason to demand the worship of other gods be completely expunged from the realm (for the sake of the would-be worshipers). This would open up questions like, "What happens to an atheists' soul?" and so on, which would be answered from campaign setting to campaign setting: perhaps there is an (like an atheist's heaven or afterlife) or they wander limbo or whatever astral realm they died "near" (physically speaking - this creates an interesting illusion that an atheist has a 50/50 chance of existing after death), or perhaps they all turn into ghosts, or maybe they go to the appropriately "near" hell (as their souls aren't protected by their worship of the gods), or they really do cease to exist.
Also, in the multiple-astrals world idea I submitted above, gods would be very similar to, say, computer programmers who created a local "ethernet" amongst themselves (the local astral), but accidentally linked into an "internet" thing (let's presume for the sake of this bad analogy that the internet's physical infrastructure existed for some reason but no one else was aware of it) and created lots of computer programs or "worlds" filling their ethernet (one of which was, unbeknownst to all on the internet), however, none took off quite like the "material" [internet] one they'd been piddling with. Something strange and interesting was happening there, and suddenly BAM, it's important. What none of the programmer-gods know is that said world/program is actually open simultaneously to different groups of programmers-gods each of whom are taking hands in creating things there (giving the illusion of the material coming into existence at least in part by itself). This kind of view would also explain why gods are capable of doing great, but sometimes limited, things in reality, and they're more potent in their various astrals: they can totally hack the system, but there are others who are also hacking the system and the material world itself is full of weird bits of leftover code from a bunch of different programmers with similar ideas. Interestingly, if taken to extreme lengths, gods would also become very much so immune to mortals and inherently distant and unknowable, even as they were very much so active and personally involved. About the best anything that wasn't a god could do would be to shut down a given god's "input/output" device (terminal) through massive trauma (kind of like a virus or worm)... although said god could later get another terminal (like a reforming avatar), even if said terminal didn't quite have everything exactly the way they preferred (so, you know, set up and recovery time). Of course, if you go really meta with this, said gods would all share the same world (like, say, an office cubicle environment), and fellow gods who were really furious at other gods for meddling in their affairs could even leave their cubicle, head over to the other cubicle, and kill the meddling god, though I'd imagine this would shock other gods and they may well imprison or kill the murdering god. Maybe go back to their programs, leave their program running and abandon it for their own health, or just shut the whole local ethernet thing down ("end of the omniverse" scenario, even though the material would would continue, if slightly less awesome than before). Incidentally, a given programmer would be responsible for a specific aspect among the group for researching this artificial intelligence stuff (mortal consciousness) that they've created, giving rise to portfolio elements. Or something.
... okay, so a short explanation/point turned into a very long one filled with weird meta-analogies and Matrix-esque "real world" questions. Sorry.
But the point is, the gods can be truly divine to the world, can be something beyond the world, and can be practically invulnerable, and still have it make sense that they'd be intimately involved. They can be overpoweringly potent, create things from nothing, practically speaking, and send active servants into the material world, and have practically all the knowledge of everything forever, yet still be limited in certain ways. And there's even a vague outline of how something like that could happen in "real life"!
... well, okay, it couldn't exactly happen that way in real life, but you know what I mean. :)
And to mystical it up a notch, what happens when a mortal "ascends" to become a god? Can this thing happen? Could there be runaway "programs" (creations) that make things frustrating or even repeatedly thwart or oppose the gods (like Asmodeus in D&D, or perhaps the MPC in TRON or CLU in TRON LEGACY)? Angels could be like antivirus programs of the omniverse.
Right, getting off track, but anyway, that's some addendums to one possible (of many) ways to interpret the multiple gods phenomena.
In any event, use what you like, leave what you don't, and God bless you! :)
One more thing about the idea I've described above. The fact that the gods in question wouldn't treat the non-divine-realm as "real" (compared to themselves) could definitively explain why they would interact with each other cordially even if they are at odds within the contexts of "alignment", and would allow for said gods (regardless of "alignment" to engage in otherwise seemingly morally reprehensible behavior because, to them, it "isn't real". This would also explain why they might teach apparent-morality to mortals that they don't engage in themselves. In many ways its like who many gamers behave in game worlds very differently than they would in real life: its a way to blow off steam and engage in behavior that wouldn't otherwise be viable.
Despite the words I've used, I'm not actually trying to suggest that gods are really merely computer programmers or gamers in a "real" world as opposed to the "fake" one they program, but rather using that terminology to explain the degree of separation, and enable gods of various alignments to still be like those in ancient myths and legends which seem horrid to us, while still explaining why they might have a vested interest in the world.
Also, sorry for the triple post... I keep thinking of ideas to clarify after I'm no long able to edit.
Sorry for the now-quadruple post, buuuuuuuut...
Yet another couple of things with the multiple-astrals world suite:
- not all astrals (or gods, for that matter) be made equal. In other words, there doesn't have to be a classical astral set up for each different plane, and they don't all have to be as big or as powerful as each other. One, for example, might have the Golarion "onion" set-up, while another might have the classic Great Wheel format, and a third the spirit realms; there could be any number of other realms, each different from each other, including the world tree, a Mount Olympus-style, or anything else altogether. The spirit realms is (from the brief description in the Manual of the Planes) actually far smaller and lesser than either of the other two, yet could be an entirely independent spiritual reality. Further, the Great Wheel is entirely infinite in scope, whereas the Golarion "onion" set up has been mentioned to be unfathomably large, but finite.
This leads to the next point: the gods don't have to be equal. The Great Wheel gods (in a d20 context) are unfathmobly huge and powerful (roughly 60HD creatures in most cases with 40 class levels and weird divine powers besides), and somewhere (though I can't recall where, right now) it basically says, "if you want to port Golarion gods in, they're lesser gods in another setting". So, taking that to its conclusion means that the Great Wheel cosmology would be, strictly speaking, more "potent" than the Golarion cosmology, which would be more "potent" than the spirit realms cosmology. Another astral reality could have been built by naught but solars (who are the gods there), and another still might be the work of the great old ones (as a cosmic burp while they sleep). Perhaps only one suite of gods is as distant as the "programmer gods" I mentioned above, while others are up close and personal. The possibilities are really quite endless.
- As for how to set up the connections to the astral, you could do it by country/nation (like Rashemen), particular geographical feature (like the Greek pantheon around a mountain), continent (like Tian-Xia), predominant environmental elements (like "the tropic regions" or "the plane of shadow"), or something else besides.
Speaking of the plane of shadow, you could also use that as a method for differentiating the gods as well, by employing the alternate material cosmology. Effectively, the plane of shadow acts as a transitional plane in between material realities as well as a "dark reflection" of the material - this would handily explain why the reflection is distorted (the plane of shadow is reflecting multiple similar-but-different realities at the same time) and would allow for a clearer distinction between worlds/astrals/cosmologies, if you like (in this view, the shadow plane would be a kind of "basement" or "sewer" plane or perhaps a "backdoor" plane that allows you to crawl under reality until you can find another way "up" into a material plane again). It doesn't even have to be the shadow! You could do this by ethereal planes, or fey planes, or some other planes of your devising.
Anyway, there are a few more thoughts.
I know that I'm writing a ton of stuff, but does any of this help Ascalaphus, or would you rather I quit now? I want to be helpful, not that boor that doesn't shut up!
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Tacticslion: I appreciate your ideas, some of them I do like. Maybe I should go in detail a bit more about the setting I'm tinkering with;
Once upon a time, there was this world. In the middle there was a Middle Kingdom ruled by an emperor/church/bureaucracy with a Mandate of Heaven from a god. Sort of Confucian-style: people owe respect and obedience to their superiors, and paternal guidance and protection to their lessers. The god created several races, each with it's own role to play in society, and top-down authority all the way.
However, there were some flaws in it; on the other continents, people chafed at the Middle Kingdom's rule. Also, the dictates from the Center got confused and contradictory as time went on. Remember the plot of Dogma? Bad things happen when divine law contradicts itself. Did the god create the lizardmen to rule as general-kings, or to serve as shock troops to protect the humans? Asuras (Bestiary III) spawned and undermined the Empire. Eventually, the peripheral continents rose up and the empire started to fall. The (Sun) god in the middle got angry and destroyed the world.
However, that's not the end of the story. While this central sun god was a pretty "Father Knows Best" kind of LN person, his creations weren't all the same alignment. He made angels/archons to protect and reward the virtuous, and devils to seek out and punish the wicked.
However, because the divine rules got so convoluted and complicated, actually a lot of souls didn't end up in heaven or hell, ending up in a Limbo for the weird cases instead. After the apocalypse, the god went away, but the archangel in charge of Limbo stayed behind, wondering what to do with all the souls there; he felt sorry for them, being much nicer than the god.
Enter another person: an ancient necromancer who'd gotten so good at his art that death was no obstruction to him whatsoever. He could come back from the death at will, and infiltrated and explored various afterlifes and worlds. He also met other gods and their worlds and policies. This necromancer was waaaay beyond good and evil; not particularly fond of gods, preferring to be in charge of his own soul and destiny entirely.
These two people - the necromancer and the archangel - met, and agreed that the barren world left behind, and the souls trapped in limbo, were a travesty. They hatched a plan; the necromancer would arrange for the souls to reincarnate, getting a new chance to earn an afterlife. But he didn't particularly like the old god, and the archangel had his own misgivings. They eventually agreed that any mortal's soul should only be claimed by any god the mortal worshipped of his own free will (for better or worse); any soul not claimed would reincarnate again. Then the necromancer pitched his idea to some other gods; the gods could "buy in" by adding souls in their own "limbo" to the reincarnation, and in return they could claim mortal souls from this world that did a better job of worshipping.
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TL;DR - now you've got a world with a "rogue" archangel and necromancer as arbiters, and many gods from different worlds that get to "bet" on it.
However, you then end up with questions like "So how does the sun work?
Who's powering it now that the old creator god is gone?", and I'm trying to come up with good/interesting answers.
Ah, I see!
Well, there are some answers that are more simple than others.
The fact is, if the archangel is a solar, you don't need anything other than his/her own ability to use the wish and miracle spells to recreate the sun and make it effectively self-propagating. Given that the angel and necromancer are effectively immortal (and how many "years" did it take to successfully pitch the concept to the other gods, anyway?), this is no obstacle. Similarly, plant life and other things would take a while, but, as I recently pointed out in another thread, with the proper care and dedication, this isn't really much of an issue.
As far as who "runs" the sun, you've got a lot of interesting ideas, but the various gods you've mentioned (I think?) all come from other worlds. Further, you mentioned that the archangel and necromancer both are leery of too much interference from the other gods.
Thus, it seems to me anyway (based on what you've described) that they would use their tremendous power to kind of establish a mostly-independently running system that the gods could influence, but wouldn't necessarily "run" consistently. Rather, the various sun gods would use the sun as a portal to their own "true" sun in their own reality elsewhere.
(By the way, I'm envisioning something akin to a 20th level necromancer lich with 10 mythic tiers <arch mage and/or trickster as the paths> and the advanced and eternal templates, and either the mythic divine template or access to the wish spell <to imitate reincarnation effects>, and an advanced template solar (perhaps with class levels) with 10 mythic tiers <guardian and/or heirophant as the paths> as well as the basis for what they can do. In other words, they can do a lot. Let me know if I'm way off, here.)
As another take on it, it could be that the gods compete with one another over the actual sun itself. Again, as you describe it, I'm just picturing a planet's orbit around a star, however, I could be misunderstanding. If the planetary orbit isn't part of it, it can function however you like. If you have a bunch of gods, they could have pooled their power (under the archangel's direction) to create a flaming sun-thing that they equally claim part of. Like some said, however, where their worship flourishes their power increases, and where their worship withers their power wanes. If you're not going scientific on us (no planet form) than it really doesn't matter.
For example, in a world where the sun moves over the face of the earth, the duration the sun is "above" a certain part of the world where they are predominant, a sun god who's in ascendance there could block it out (effectively causing it to cease to exist) over that area, but it would return as soon as it would have "left" their region. If two gods are in equal or near-equal standing, and they can't resolve a disagreement peacefully, than they could struggle for it (direct approach), try underhanded tactics (indirect and chaotic approach), perform a straight-up competition (neutral or lawful approach), or bring it before the conclave of the other sun deities (lawful approach) (incidentally, this would mean that divine politicking is a thing, even among your rivals).
Again, you can lather/rinse/repeat with other physical phenomena.
This kind of thing help?
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I'm not terribly concerned with stats for the necromancer and archangel - let's just say that they're "powerful enough", but believe in hands-off management of the world, that mortals should be relatively free to make their own destiny. I wanted a setting where mortals have a lot of agency, divine intervention should be minimal.
So the idea was that these uber-beings had powers around a certain theme - the necromancer handled reincarnation of millions of souls, which keeps him pretty busy, the archangel controls access to/fro the plane and the multiverse, keeping out major demons and other things that prey upon worlds without a clear protector-god; he can't leave his place of power too often or the demons might get in.
I was originally thinking about having the original sun destroyed in the apocalypse, and that the uber-beings were a triumvirate with an epic dragon who breathes a ball of fire every day that warms and illuminates the earth.
However, I got thinking about suns when wondering about the World Before Apocalypse. Was there only one god in the WBA? Or were there other faiths on the peripheral continents? I want the answer to that to be Yes. So then you've got some continents with their own pantheons; but did they have their own sun god, and how did that sun god relate to the sun god who reigned over the central continent?
And now that there may be a dragon who breathes a bright ball of fire every day - does that fireball have the properties of sunlight (killing vampires)? Why (not)?
Very cool. I'll have to think and get back to you on that. :)
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I was (among other things) inspired by the idea of Ravenloft - a world where the gods can't really interfere, just send power to virtuous mortals and hope for the best. I don't want it to be quite as grimdark though, more a Conan-esque world where mortals are pretty free to do stuff themselves, without gods stepping in.
Another source of inspiration was R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series - the gods are outside the world, and they "look in" through the souls of mortals; souls are the gateway between the divine and secular world.
So if a god has no believers, he has nearly no way to affect the world. Clerics are the most vital pawns. But a cleric is basically a mortal who's trained his soul to channel divine power - he might switch to another divine patron. If a talented, skilled cleric "switches sides", that's a very big win for the new patron god, gaining a major new playing piece in the world.
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Another thing I'm playing with is the idea of Gods vs. Nature: gods are essentially un/supernatural, which Nature doesn't always appreciate. Even with the best of intentions, what gods do often goes counter to nature and that leads to tensions with it. A god created a superior lizardmen race, but natural selection then spawned an offshoot degenerate race (troglodytes). Some races arose due to evolution, others explicitly created. There's also a tension between gods+clerics, and nature+Kami+druids.
The Great Wheel or the Great Beyond are for mortal, 3D beings. There is an Astral, Thought forms, and Divine Spark plane. Souls and Spirits can die, but only so much as living things do. Things such as Alips are made of the mad shreds of many sundered souls. They can go to the thought forms plane, but no magic can take your character there. Like an idea, their thoughts and memories cannot die. If a character is non-ressurectably destroyed, they become shredded, and parts become picked up by souls headed to earth planning to be born, or even an artist grabbing inspiration out of thin air.
Most atheists go soak their heads in the river of forgetfulness, and promply wander back to this veil of tears. :p
I'm working out the kinks of my new setting, and I'm hoping you guys have interesting ideas about how to handle the following:
Say you have a culture 1 on continent A, which believes Apollo is the sun god.
And there's culture 2 on continent B, which believes Ra is the sun god.
There's only one sun.
How does this work? I've got a couple of ideas;
Thats a great question.
personally, and not to be flip, I would say all of the above. different people will think of it different ways. in the game world where the gods are real and physical manifestations with clerics and such walking around casting spells with their gods blessing at every corner i think that the debate is mostly alignment based.
If both sun gods are LG or at least within one step of that (NG or LN)then then the people will simply feel the other group got the name wrong and picked up some strange but ultimately valid rituals of worship. they may even offer prayers to their god
If one sun god is LG and the other is a highly opposed then they are likely to be offended by the people and their worship of the TRUE god. likely even hostile or competitive.
I think the degree if disparity should be related to the degree of alignment disparity.
Note: be carefull of to strict a comparison to real life.
in the real world Christians Jews and Muslims technically worship the same lawful/good god and their relationship is full of strife. the reason for all of this strife is because in the real world the RELIGION often trumps the FAITH. in other words the religion is what they argue, not so much the nature of the god. this is why protestants and Catholics can worship the same god, venerate the same prophets and read the same book but still war and fight over who is right and wrong.
in other words... its a game... treat it like one.
Each region is a sphere of influence, just like the planet itself is round, each group of gods, or god is responsible for that sphere. If the all gods of Greece die for example, Greece turns black, and rots away before being destroyed completely in some Apocalypic manner. (An obvious fate ALL gods would not like to see.) I generally have an 'overlord' god that is not known to mortals, but is known to gods, that can create, and empower, or demote those gods as need be if thier duties are shirked.
I'm working out the kinks of my new setting, and I'm hoping you guys have interesting ideas about how to handle the following:
Say you have a culture 1 on continent A, which believes Apollo is the sun god.
And there's culture 2 on continent B, which believes Ra is the sun god.
There's only one sun.
How does this work? I've got a couple of ideas;
- One god is the real sun god, the other an impostor.
- One god is the real sun god, the other is actually just an avatar/lesser aspect/important minion of the real sun god.
- They're the same god, just known by a different name.
- Neither is the true sun god; the sun works fine without gods. Why are they claiming to run the sun?
- The sun has multiple patron gods who work together most of the time, but perhaps occasionally squabble (eclipse). Maybe they trade turns taking care of it during the year, and when it's their turn, take care of their own continent better than the other guy (seasons).
- All sun gods are mere reflections of the sun itself, which is too mystical to be directly known by mortals.This is of course a general principle; it applies to the sun but also to other macro-phenomena like the earth, harvest, trade and death.
Do you have other ideas on how this can be spun?
How about this one: Apollo and Ra are both sun gods, and both legitimate. Each deity enables sunlight to fall on their respective worshipers' lands. But if Ra were to become angry with his people (or if his power could somehow be disrupted), the sunlight that falls on their land falters (local eclipse), while Apollo's people continue to enjoy its light and warmth.
Apollo's chariot is set with several sunstones. He goes around to faithful worshipers to invigorate their crops and such. He's like a sunlight Santa. Basicly if you sacrifice to him and praise him you get sunlight on even the cloudiest of days.
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An alternate to the 'all avatars of the *real* sun god' notion is that the 'real sun god' is a mindless force, more like a Great Old One than a 'god,' and multiple very powerful outsiders are tapping into it's power, presenting themselves to mortals as 'the sun god.'
Different 'sun gods' can draw from the same power source, the sun, just as multiple clerics can draw from the same individual sun god.
Suppose Apollo is angry and wants to take the sun away. Ra doesn't want that to happen. What happens now? [/auiote]
Perhaps it goes dark over Greece (until Apollo is placated), but in Egypt, the people have no idea that 'Apollo stole the sun' and it just keeps on shining.
Similarly, if Set or Horus or whomever has that job this week takes the day off from defending the sun-barque from the daily attack by Apophis, and the serpent succeeds in devouring the unguarded sun, it's a big deal in Egypt (unending eclipse, until the gods team up and wrassle the snake into vomiting up the sun!), but the folk up in Rome are utterly unaware of it, because Sol Invictus is on the job.
Edit: Doh, ninja'd by Matthew Shelton, like, *weeks* ago.
If Apollo and Ra both claim to have created/be the sun, are they both right? Only one of them? Are they just different representations of the same god, as perceived by different cults?They might be utterly unaware that they *didn't* create the sun, having been formed as gods with memories of their own creation stories.
From Terry Pratchett's excellent book Hogfather, in a scene where Death and his granddaughter (it's complicated) are talking:
‘Thank you. Now… tell me…’
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN’T SAVED HIM?
‘Yes! The sun would have risen just the same, yes?’
NO.
‘Oh, come on. You can’t expect me to believe that . It’s an astronomical fact .’
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
She turned on him. ‘It’s been a long night, Grandfather! I’m tired and I need a bath! I don’t need silliness!’
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
‘Really? Then what would have happened, pray?’
A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
They walked in silence for a moment.
“Ah,” said Susan dully. “Trickery with words. I would have thought you’d have been more literal-minded than that.”
I AM NOTHING IF NOT LITERAL-MINDED. TRICKERY WITH WORDS IS WHERE HUMANS LIVE.
“All right,” said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need . . . fantasies to make life bearable.”
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
“Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little -”
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
“So that we can believe the big ones?”
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
“They’re not the same at all!”
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET – Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME . . . SOME
RIGHTNESS
IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.“Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point-”
MY POINT EXACTLY.
She tried to assemble her thoughts.
THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON’T TRY TO TELL ME THAT’S RIGHT.
Yes, but people don’t think about that,” said Susan. “Somewhere there was a bed. . .”
CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLDS COLLIDE, THERE’S HARDLY ANYWHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT A . . . A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT.
“Talent?”
OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IN INSIDE YOUR HEADS.
“You make us sound mad,” said Susan. A nice warm bed…
NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME? said Death.
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I'm working out the kinks of my new setting, and I'm hoping you guys have interesting ideas about how to handle the following:
Say you have a culture 1 on continent A, which believes Apollo is the sun god.
And there's culture 2 on continent B, which believes Ra is the sun god.
There's only one sun.
How does this work? I've got a couple of ideas;
- One god is the real sun god, the other an impostor.
- One god is the real sun god, the other is actually just an avatar/lesser aspect/important minion of the real sun god.
- They're the same god, just known by a different name.
- Neither is the true sun god; the sun works fine without gods. Why are they claiming to run the sun?
- The sun has multiple patron gods who work together most of the time, but perhaps occasionally squabble (eclipse). Maybe they trade turns taking care of it during the year, and when it's their turn, take care of their own continent better than the other guy (seasons).
- All sun gods are mere reflections of the sun itself, which is too mystical to be directly known by mortals.
The Sun is simply a star. The Sun gods do not exist, and the cultures interpret the sun as a God in their own way.
-- Agni.
-- Apollo
-- Ba'al
-- Sol Invictus
-- Awondo
-- Nyambi
-- Tonatiuh
-- Ri Gong Ri Guang Pu Sa
-- Ri Gong Tai Yang Xing Jun
-- Surya
And many others. The cultures all revere the Sun as a deity in their own way, either as male or female. However the deities don't exist, but the belief of the clerics produces divine magic.
An alternate to the 'all avatars of the *real* sun god' notion is that the 'real sun god' is a mindless force, more like a Great Old One than a 'god,' and multiple very powerful outsiders are tapping into it's power, presenting themselves to mortals as 'the sun god.'
Like Chutuga.
You've got it.
I use Ra and Apollo in my home games, actually. The elves worship the Grecian pantheon while the Nagaji worship the Pharaonic Pantheon. There are other pantheons inspired by real-world religions in my world as well.
How do I justify having both Apollo and Ra in my games? One is the master, the other is the apprentice.
At some undisclosed point in the past, the gods warred with one another so in order to sort things out, they swapped children with one another as "hostages." See Theron Greyjoy in Game of Thrones or his historical counterpart from the War of Roses (can't remember his name) as excellent examples of this. When Apollo returned to his pantheon, he was associated with the sun and the elves worship him as such, though in actuality they're also worshiping Ra's ideals as well, which pleases him.