Is it solely because of the increased crit range, or am I missing something else about it?
I'm wondering because I'm making a Two-Handed char right now (an Anger Inquisitor) and I wanted to know whether I should stick with GS or move to the Falchion for my proficiency.
I'm asking because it seems like every time somebody posts a thread/build on this forum that uses a two-hander it's the Falchion or the Elven Curve Blade.
But the Greataxe is nice too, especially since you get proficiency for free as a Half-Orc.
The thing is while damage comes out pretty close add in Crit feats that add conditions and the high crit range becomes far more important.
Well here's the thing. We'll say I'm a level 10 Inquisitor (that's what I've got him built to) with a Holy Greatsword.
I can Bane for an extra 2d6 damage, on top of the 2d6 from the Greatsword, and 2d6 more if the target is evil.
So 6d6 damage fairly consistently (I have 15 rounds of Bane per day due to Feats and Wis mod, I'm good on that). So a max output of 36 damage a swing before factoring in the lesser Rage I get + Power Attack + Str mods.
The Falchion has 2d4 + 2d6 + 2d6 for a total of 32, but crits approximately 5% of the time more, bumping the damage up another hit basically, 5% more of the time. Hm.
I guess I can see where that would become a significant amount actually, didn't seem as much so in my head. Forgot crits still added Str mods and other damage modifiers.
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It's because if you use a greatsword, it's obvious that you're compensating for something.
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Well here's the thing. We'll say I'm a level 10 Inquisitor (that's what I've got him built to) with a Holy Greatsword.
I can Bane for an extra 2d6 damage, on top of the 2d6 from the Greatsword, and 2d6 more if the target is evil.
So 6d6 damage fairly consistently (I have 15 rounds of Bane per day due to Feats and Wis mod, I'm good on that). So a max output of 36 damage a swing before factoring in the lesser Rage I get + Power Attack + Str mods.
The Falchion has 2d4 + 2d6 + 2d6 for a total of 32, but crits approximately 5% of the time more, bumping the damage up another hit basically, 5% more of the time. Hm.
I guess I can see where that would become a significant amount actually, didn't seem as much so in my head. Forgot crits still added Str mods and other damage modifiers.
Since Bane and Holy aren't multiplied on a crit, it probably doesn't matter much for you.
Well here's the thing. We'll say I'm a level 10 Inquisitor (that's what I've got him built to) with a Holy Greatsword.
I can Bane for an extra 2d6 damage, on top of the 2d6 from the Greatsword, and 2d6 more if the target is evil.
So 6d6 damage fairly consistently (I have 15 rounds of Bane per day due to Feats and Wis mod, I'm good on that). So a max output of 36 damage a swing before factoring in the lesser Rage I get + Power Attack + Str mods.
The Falchion has 2d4 + 2d6 + 2d6 for a total of 32, but crits approximately 5% of the time more, bumping the damage up another hit basically, 5% more of the time. Hm.
I guess I can see where that would become a significant amount actually, didn't seem as much so in my head. Forgot crits still added Str mods and other damage modifiers.
Figure the average on all those dice, though. A d6 averages 3.5, a d4 averages 2.5. The greatsword's average damage is 7 alone, the falchion is 5 by itself. A difference in 2 damage per hit, but the extra crit from the falchion evens that out. Bigger deal - extra damage dice aren't multiplied on a crit.
Rynjin, the major difference is when you hit the level for critical feats that add things like a sickedned, nauseated, or bleeding condition to the opponent on a crit. If the damage is about equal, the crit feats tilt things to a higher threat range, since those feats only care about how often you get a crit.
So would you say the Greatsword is superior if Keen or Improved Critical isn't an option?
Hrm. I may swap to Falchion then, Improved Critical doesn't really interfere with anything I wanna get. And it looks cool.
I'll run some more numbers. If I can work Improved Critical in it'd probably be better, since I'd be critting roughly 20% of the time, but if I can't then I'll stick with ye olde Greatsword.
It's because if you use a greatsword, it's obvious that you're compensating for something.
B~&#~ please it's not compensating if the sword is smaller.
Why do you think I don't carry a Blunt weapon? Natural attacks baby.
There was somebody who actually did the number crunching for all of the weapons. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=14Fmxv1kZSvm2AbZ0LGjyRQY2WvhkDj0Wpy 8al_bzoGs
The guide used to have all the number crunching from what I remember, but he changed it not that long ago, he took all the details out it seems.
By this number crunching you should be using a nodachi for your 2 handed crit sword. Will give you superior DPR for most builds.
The obsessive need for optimization is what normally drives people to take the higher crit threat weapon. Post something here with Greatsword as a listed weapon, and you're sure to see "suggestions" of people telling you to take a Falchion instead (plus the Improved Critical Feat).
No, Rynjin, I AM right. You have failed. Personally, I'd dual wield nunchaku...or gnomechaku...
I dun have the Dex for TWF.
Besides, Nunchaku hardly fit in with my image of an Undead smiting badass named Erique Bruuks.
I may not be able to use your race Luna but I'm still working with the character (as either a Human or a Half-Orc, leaning toward Human just because).
And Barry, that's what I figured. I'm not an obsessive optimizer, I just don't want to take a clearly inferior option. Seems like there are merits to both so I'm wavering between them here.
? Wait there's people that take Falchions?
This doesn't seem to be the case here in my area/games. I see an equal number of people take Great Axes and Great Swords. Strangely enough, I don't see a lot of people take Falchions here (I even went with a Great Axe for my Half-Orc Rogue, and I just realized what I'm sort of missing out on.)
If your aim isn't to get all the criticals, but rather do a lot of damage, why doesn't anyone use Falcatas? It's a single feat or better yet, a 1,500 GP investment (Opalescent White Pyramid, Cracked) gives weapon familiarity with it, essentially giving proficiency with it. In my opinion and experience, what good is a staggered enemy when your Falcata crit of x3 just knocked the big bad unconscious? Something to be said about a 1d8 19-20/x3 one-handed weapon because hey: eventually the die doesn't matter, it's damage bonuses that matter, right? Easily wielded in two hands as well.
EDIT: Forgot Elven Curved Blade. I only know one guy that has a build that uses them: A Titan Mauler that dual-wields weapon finesse agile elven curved blades. Also believe he had urban barbarian as well so DEX BONUS WHILE RAGING!!!!
I dun have the Dex for TWF.
Besides, Nunchaku hardly fit in with my image of an Undead smiting badass named Erique Bruuks.
I may not be able to use your race Luna but I'm still working with the character (as either a Human or a Half-Orc, leaning toward Human just because).
And Barry, that's what I figured. I'm not an obsessive optimizer, I just don't want to take a clearly inferior option. Seems like there are merits to both so I'm wavering between them here.
It's cool. They belong to the community at large now. :)
Yar.
I'd say it's an issue of flavor with your particular sampling of players.
However, for the crunch side, I did some a ways back, though I only considered the 12 most commonly associated (as far as I could tell) big hitter weapons wielded one handed and two handed at levls 1 and 12. I did not do two-weapon fighting comparisons. But you may find it interesting anyways.
tl:dr - Falchion edges out the greatsword in average DRP most of the time, but only by a few point..., unless you are Vital Striking, in which case the Greatsword edges out the Falchion by a few points.
EDIT: but if you are undead smashing, the Earthbreaker is great against them pesky skeletons. Same DPR as a Greatsword, but bludgeoning damage. (19+/x2 and 20/x3 actually work out to the same average, unless you include crit feats or burst effects... then everything changes).
~P
I knew someone would bring DPR into effect, eventually... Hence the "optimizers".
It's not a bad thing to optimize the choices laid before you, but when you start crunching numbers and saying that one is "better" than the other due to a .7 DPR offset, you start going from optimizing to joining munchkinland.
Once you go against your character concept or role and take a feat, weapon, or skill simply because it's "better", you are less role-playing and more puzzle-solving.
(Not saying you did that, at all, Pirate. That was a shotgun blast, not a targeted snipe.)
Average players mostly use Longswords, Greatswords, and Greataxes (dwarves frequently use the Dwarven Waraxe, too).
Players that understand the game's math and who don't have a particular flavor reason to go for a specific weapon (because the difference is slight enough that flavor should rule out in the end) use Falchions, Elven Curve Blades, No-Dachis, Falcatas, Scimitars, Urumis, Kukris, Scythes, Naginatas, Picks, etc.
The trick is that 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 are exactly equal (18-20/x2 and x4 are also equal). However, a weapon dealing X damage with 19-20/x2 crit is not equal to a weapon dealing X-1 damage with an 18-20/x2 crit, because weapon damage is literally the least important component of damage past the first level or two.
Most people realize how much better 18-20/x2 is, but not as many seem to realize 20/x4 is exactly as good. I guess they don't care for it because it's so much spikier and has much greater chance of wasted damage on overkill.
You know, the Earthbreaker actually sounds pretty great. Fits my role as the holy warrior of the god of "RIP SMASH KILL" who hate Undead.
Though Skeletons are generally less powerful than Zombies, correct? I may get an Earthbreaker as a backup (the physics of this astound me but I've got the carrying capacity for it) but hm.
Grrr. F$~$ it. Swinging a giant hammer sounds more fun than being BFS Dude #276487618763.
I wish there was a larger version of a Katana though. The quintessential Zombie chopping weapon and the only version does 1d8.
Maybe I'll take a Falchion as a backup, or an Elven Curve Blade since it's so light (I think. It's 4 lbs isn't it?).
Most casual players will choose the greatsword. Most who are well versed in the game will go for the Falchion, at least in the long run. Both IME.
At low levels, when you don't have keen / imp. crit and the extra damage you're adding from various sources (str, enhancement, weapon specialization, whatever) is minimal, greatsword is probably the superior choice.
Once you can get the 15-20 threat range and are adding all sorts of bonus damage to each roll (the kind that multiplies on a crit, at least), the extra chance of doubling all of that damage will outweigh the greatsword's constant +2 damage bonus (the avg. damage increase from 2d4 to 2d6). And then, yeah, Paizo loves their crits. Between crit feats, Magus's spellstrike, the feats that do a maneuver when you crit, etc... Lots of other reasons to want to crit often.
Now, if you're going the BFS (Big ****ing sword) build route, Greatsword *can* remain better. You look at the size increase damage tables, and you see: 2d4 (or 1d8), 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
So greatsword basically is a step ahead of falchion for advancing on that progression. Find a way to heft a large weapon and get enlarged, greatsword's now doing 4d6 vs. 3d6 for falchion, a difference of 3.5 damage. If you can manage just one more size increase effect somehow, G-sword is now doing 6d6 vs. Falchion's 4d6, a whopping difference of SEVEN! Which remains the same at the next step up, then after that it's a boost of 14!!!!
So, TL;DR: Greatsword is better at early levels and for people who like their weapons to be larger than the targets they're trying to hit with them, Falchion is better for almost anyone else.
Thanks for the breakdown Stream.
I'm not worried too much about optimization currently, more Rule of Cool/Fun, but it is nice to know that when I need the best option for whatever reason I know what it is and know WHY it is so.
Huh. Just realized Gorum gives free Greatsword proficiency.
So I could actually keep a GS around as my slashing weapon and be able to use it effectively.
Huh. Just realized Gorum gives free Greatsword proficiency.
So I could actually keep a GS around as my slashing weapon and be able to use it effectively.
My most recent campaign had a Gorum cleric, he was the main damage dealer for much of the time. 1st round buff spell, move up. 2nd round start channel smite power attack. If he couldn't get a full attack he would vital strike. At level 11 where we started (it was a relatively short campaign with high power levels) he would smack down so many d6s it wasn't even funny. 2d6(weapon)+2d6(vital strike)+6d6(neg energy channeled smite)= 10d6 damage or 35 damage from dice on average. He also had a highish strength (22 post mods and gear), so added +9 from strength bonus. With his power attack IIRC its -3/+9 for that level. So 10d6+18 damage, or 12d6+36 on a crit. His sword was also viscous, so that's 2d6 more... Yeah, very nasty for a cleric.
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Dayum. I can't hope to be that badass I don't think. Let's count up stuff and see. Assuming an evil enemy.
I have, basically at level 10:
2d6 Earthbreaker
2d6 Holy quality on the weapon
2d6 Bane
Power Attack (-2, +4 really +6 because two-hander)
2d6 Vital Strike
+8 Str mod
Do Two handed weapons normally add 1.5x Str to damage? If so, that's +12 from Str mod.
So that's a total of...8d6 + 14 (18?) average, another 1d6 if I'm flanking (Outflank Teamwork Feat).
So an average of 42 (46?) damage. Huh. Well okay, that's more than I thought when added up. Then 45-49 on flank or an extra 4d6 (I think? Get two extra damage dice with x3 crit?) damage on a crit + 28 (36?) damage for a whopping average of 84 (124?) damage should everything go perfectly. Add another 1d6 if Sneak Attack stacks with regular crits.
Well alrighty then. That's pumping Str and with a +6 Str from a belt though, I assumed average wealth of 105k to get the Holy weapon and the Belt that adds +6 to any two physical stats (Str and Con) as well as +2 Chainmail. I'd have more money left over if I bring this guy in on the same campaign we're in (25% discount on items if bought through Aspis).
OH. And that's not counting Rage Domain Rage. AC is only like 18 though, so I'll be taking as many hits as I dish out, especially with Rage. Probably take Guarded Stance Rage Power at 12 to mitigate that.
Inquisitor is my new favorite badass. Got my first taste of Bane this week too, some a*&##+! tribesmen with Human Bane Arrows. It is as effective as I imagine, our Barbarian almost ate it, even with the Cleric healing him.
No real detailed figures here, we're playing online through roll20.net
My Half-Orc Monk was portrayed by a blonde white Elf. Not precisely very much alignment between figures and characters.
You can find Half-Orcs on Roll20 that might be more accurate than a blonde white Elf. :D
- Gauss
A falchion used with keen or improved crit has a minimum 30% hit-chance guaranteed no matter the AC of your target, on top of that this 30% chance is also how easily the weapon crits. Once you can slap vorpal or even just burst on there, it gets ridiculous.
Threeshades:
Critical threats are not automatic hits. A 15-20 threat range still can miss on 15-19. Only natural 20's are automatic hits.
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action on page 182).
Additionally, the Vorpal property only keys off of a natural 20. Not the full critical threat range.
Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body.
- Gauss
I wish there was a larger version of a Katana though. The quintessential Zombie chopping weapon and the only version does 1d8.
That's a No-Dachi.
Although I have to admit, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that the Katana is the quintessential zombie chopping weapon. Maybe a chainsaw or machete, but a Katana?
Threeshades:
Critical threats are not automatic hits. A 15-20 threat range still can miss on 15-19. Only natural 20's are automatic hits.
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action on page 182).Additionally, the Vorpal property only keys off of a natural 20. Not the full critical threat range.
Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body.- Gauss
After all these years, this game is still full of surprises.
I wish there was a larger version of a Katana though. The quintessential Zombie chopping weapon and the only version does 1d8.That's a No-Dachi.
Although I have to admit, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that the Katana is the quintessential zombie chopping weapon. Maybe a chainsaw or machete, but a Katana?
I meant bigger stats-wise. Basically I wanted what was essentially a re-skinned Greatsword or Falchion.
And it depends on what you're watching. Even western animation, TV shows, movies, and games are introducing Katanas as one of the big Zombie killing weapons, along with the aforementioned chainsaw and machete, as well as the humble baseball bat.
You could choose Ragathiel as your deity for bastard sword proficiency, and then TWF with them. Doesn't get much more manly than that. ;)
Maybe I'll try to finagle up a high Dex Cleric some time and go battle medic.
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You could choose Ragathiel as your deity for bastard sword proficiency, and then TWF with them. Doesn't get much more manly than that. ;)Maybe I'll try to finagle up a high Dex Cleric some time and go battle medic.
Hrm, I originally thought you could Bane both swords if you went Inquisitor, but I guess not. Oh well.
Hrm, I originally thought you could Bane both swords if you went Inquisitor, but I guess not. Oh well.You could choose Ragathiel as your deity for bastard sword proficiency, and then TWF with them. Doesn't get much more manly than that. ;)Maybe I'll try to finagle up a high Dex Cleric some time and go battle medic.
You need the Double Bane Feat for that.
Also, scythes and picks are lame.
My death priestess and dwarf barbarian beg to differ ;)
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Also, scythes and picks are lame.My death priestess and dwarf barbarian beg to differ ;)
How is a scythe goofy looking?
And a pick can be a pretty nasty weapon. Pointy end goes in other's head.
It's mostly that it's a slashing weapon with the sharp bit pointed in a really dumb direction.You should check out what war scythes actually look like.
Yeah, they're more like long-bladed, edged polearms than threshing scythes as usually depicted hauled about by grim reapers.
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I don't have problems with Warscythes. The problem I have is that even when the fluff says otherwise, it's still portrayed as a doofy-looking farmer's scythe.
It's just a personal bias, I ain't saying anybody's wrong for disagreeing.
