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This is really something that burns me up. I have caught players who tell me they roll one thing when they actually roll something else. I immediately cause them to lose a level permanently, if it keeps on, then I make them leave. If it's a mistake then fair enough but if not then it's just plain cheating. I make my players roll the dice in front of everyone.
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Talk to them.
You have them lose a level? You seriously need to chill out dude.
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I've caught a player doing it, and I just call them out on the spot and make them reroll in front of us. No need for corporal punishment with a board game.
1st time: Ask them to reroll openly, and tell them not to do it again, as repeat incidents of cheating will lead me to ask them to leave the group.
2nd time: Ask them to reroll openly, maybe with a -2 penalty, and tell them if they do it again, I will ask them to leave the group.
3rd time: 3 strikes, you're out. I got plenty more players to choose from, I don't need to keep one around who cheats.
I don't punish the PC with anything drastic like level lost because that's just punishing ME, trying to deal with a party of people of multiple character levels and appropriately design encounters for it. Besides, the character didn't do it, the player did. Yes, I did say second time the roll would be penalized and that does affect player action but I feel that's not too drastic and may help drive a point home without affecting the game's play or balance.
Mind in my usual group I don't think I've ever caught anyone doing this, so this is largely academic. When I've run demos in stores, a sharp glare and a request to reroll has gone just fine.
Talk to them.
You have them lose a level? You seriously need to chill out dude.
Like I've said before, I'm as calm as a dead body.
What's so bad about losing a level for cheating?
Aside from the fact that you're obviously compensating your lack of self-esteem and maturity with an arbitrary punishment like that?
I can't imagine why anyone would want to play with someone who's that freaking spiteful, even if the guy was cheating in that situation.
Personally, I'd ask why the hell would the player try and ruin the game by cheating and let him/her off with a warning the first time it happens.
What's so bad about losing a level for cheating?How can you be sure they'll actually remove the level?
Better yet, what happens when your punishment lands on a level 1 character?
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Talk to them.
You have them lose a level? You seriously need to chill out dude.
Like I've said before, I'm as calm as a dead body.
What's so bad about losing a level for cheating?
Aside from the fact that you're obviously compensating your lack of self-esteem and maturity with an arbitrary punishment like that?
I can't imagine why anyone would want to play with someone who's that freaking spiteful, even if the guy was cheating in that situation.
Personally, I'd ask why the hell would the player try and ruin the game by cheating and let him/her off with a warning the first time it happens.
Actually...not arbitrary. Dude got caught cheating.
Not saying I agree with the level loss, but still, not arbitrary.
I think the low self esteem and lack of maturity comes from the loser who is trying to cheat in a made up world.
Since I play more play by post and chat, intentional cheating is more difficult. When people edit dice rolls in play by post to get a different number though I count the dice rolled as a one, whatever it was originally or after the editing.
Talk to them.
You have them lose a level? You seriously need to chill out dude.
Like I've said before, I'm as calm as a dead body.
What's so bad about losing a level for cheating?
Aside from the fact that you're obviously compensating your lack of self-esteem and maturity with an arbitrary punishment like that?
I can't imagine why anyone would want to play with someone who's that freaking spiteful, even if the guy was cheating in that situation.
Personally, I'd ask why the hell would the player try and ruin the game by cheating and let him/her off with a warning the first time it happens.
Actually...not arbitrary. Dude got caught cheating.
Not saying I agree with the level loss, but still, not arbitrary.
I think the low self esteem and lack of maturity comes from the loser who is trying to cheat in a made up world.
Alright, it's disproportionate to the crime done.
Personally, I see a lack of restraint as rather immature.
Lastly, why do something stupid like that when it can be talked out?
I mean, unless Shallow ALWAYS plays Pathfinder with people he really hates.
Have another player confirm the die roll.
A-Cheater: I rolled a... 16.
DM Confirm the die roll, B.
Usually you won't have two players cheating at the same time. In life and death situations for the whole party, then you might have everyone cheat. Dice fudging in that situation might be a little more reasonable
(at least understandable), and if it goes along with the adventure plot. i.e. if you didn't intend for the PC's to all be killed by traps in the first room.
My problem with my player is that ninety percent of the time, the die doesn't roll. It lands with a thud and slides across the gaming mat as though it were made of metal. I need to get a dice tower or something I think. Or make my own. Some kind of tiered rolling platform.
Also, here's a touching story for everyone but especially Shallow. Though I've many times complained about my previous DM for the shortcomings of the campaigns, I admit that one time when I had a hilariously bad roll day, I cheated on a few rolls just so I wouldn't be a waste of space to the rest of the party. One week later, I admitted that I had cheated since he hadn't noticed. He only asked which rolls I fudged and why.
No negative levels or anything. Just a "don't do that again" and back to the game. Didn't save me from losing my nerve later on, though.
When you have a hilariously bad roll day, you're supposed to trade dice with the DM. :)
Ragelancepounce to the forehead!!!!11one
When you have a hilariously bad roll day, you're supposed to trade dice with the DM. :)
One of the players in my current group insists that the insane luck of a fellow player (rolled 20 three times in a row once) was thanks to the dice he let the guy borrow. And my DM didn't have spare dice in that table where my little cheating incident happened, so I had to mostly rely on my own fickle dice that just decided some day to roll below 10 every time and on another day roll a 20 on every fifth roll.
So you are a cheater, Icyshadow, and you project low self esteem and such onto a DM like shallow who enforces consequences for your deviant behavior. Classy.
I'd probably go with a two or three strike rule before throwing them out. The roll they cheated on they definitely fail though, critically if need be, and I'd have a conversation with them about cheating after the session. Two or three strikes would probably depend on how much they brought to the game otherwise. A millstone around my neck is cut loose easier than a party boon.
four pound hammer. We play "This little piggie..". That usually stops the dice fudging.
Ahem, I only cheated once, and also had the balls to admit I did.
So what were you hoping to accomplish by calling me a cheater, Kain?
Icyshadow, I do find it interesting that you basically are saying to give the player a pass, since every thread I've seen you involved in that has the GM making some sort of error (real or imagined, and regardless of the impact of said error), you have advocated kicking him to the curb.
I guess I will have to waste more of my time explaining this to you, since you keep misreading my intentions.
There's a difference between kicking a DM to the curb, and telling them they've made a mistake they will need to fix.
I'm just cynical enough to believe that a DM is usually too arrogant to admit they did so, and pin the blame on the player instead.
So far you've been only proving me right in that regard, so I've felt no real need to change my stance when it comes to this whole issue.
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I flog him.
Or at least when that was legal, today i just ask them to rerol the first time, the second time i say he had failed his fudged action, and it even has an IC explanation! "Your character was so nervous about making a mistake, that he actually did!" Taking players cheating and then punishing them is always fun!
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There's a difference between kicking a DM to the curb, and telling them they've made a mistake they've need to fix.
This is true. However, I've never seen you suggest the second option, only the first.
Apparently you are more forgiving of someone blatantly lying about a dice roll, the numbers on their sheet, etc; than you are of someone whose interpretation of the rules differs from yours.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So ... why do players miscall dice?
Has anybody here ever played a "choose your own adventure" book? I bought and read several, back in the day, and whenever there was supposed to be a combat, I just assumed my viewpoint character won and turned to the right page to continue the story. (Why not?)
We have all sorts of mechanisms in place that mitigate disastrous dice rolling: re-rolls, hero points, so on and so forth. Why? Because we want to have our cake and eat it, too. We want randomizers to determine the narrative but never derail the narrative.
The question is one of perogative: who gets to decide how much randomization is "derailing"? The game designers? The GM? The players?
For some players, a RPG is mostly about the storyline. It's one thing to have random dice determine the narrative (which is fine with those players), and another thing entirely for the dice to determine whether that narrative even happens (which is not fine). If the game allows them to spend hero points, they will. If not, then they'll bend the dice to the narrative the only way they can. Some people miscall dice because they figure that the number they rolled will end the story: their character will die or be taken out of the story.
Other people feel that the judge is being unfair and cheat to compensate.
In either case, I think it might be better to explain your expectations than to assume the worst.
There's a difference between kicking a DM to the curb, and telling them they've made a mistake they've need to fix.This is true. However, I've never seen you suggest the second option, only the first.
Apparently you are more forgiving of someone blatantly lying about a dice roll, the numbers on their sheet, etc; than you are of someone whose interpretation of the rules differs from yours.
Then I apologize for not being more clear about my stance.
Honestly, it depends on what roll it was and what rules are being altered.
If the new rule makes the game less fun for the players, it's 99% likely it's not good.
One good example was "your ray will hit your ally if you miss", which he said AFTER I ROLLED.
Hee hee! I totally a fudged a die roll and I don't feel bad at all!
I've always played with rolls out in the open, even when DMing. I've witnessed plenty of people trying to cheat and were called out by both players and DMs. We all had a good laugh and damage was dealt.
My current group has me rolling behind the DM screen, but one guy is so damned tall he keeps seeing over the damned thing.
I don't feel like fudging any rolls even as DM since that guy might see, but it also bothers me that he can't just look to the side while I roll.
Dang Icy, any chance there's a thread around here you're in where you're not fighting with someone? Chillax, yo.
Dang Icy, any chance there's a thread around here you're where you're not fighting with someone? Chillax, yo.
I come and give my view on something, only to have people pick fights with me. There's a difference between deliberately looking for a fight, and having the fight come to you. And really, since I had the chance to clear some things up, I'd say the fighting is over at least for now.
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Talk to them.
You have them lose a level? You seriously need to chill out dude.
Like I've said before, I'm as calm as a dead body.
What's so bad about losing a level for cheating?
Aside from the fact that you're obviously compensating your lack of self-esteem and maturity with an arbitrary punishment like that?
I can't imagine why anyone would want to play with someone who's that freaking spiteful, even if the guy was cheating in that situation.
Personally, I'd ask why the hell would the player try and ruin the game by cheating and let him/her off with a warning the first time it happens.
Oh yeah, you got me there.
Unless you advocate flat out cheating, why are you so worried about the punishment?
Did I mention it works and the other players won't hesitate to tell on each other? Keeps the game fun and fair.
I used to fudge a lot. It was a terrible habit that I'm very happy to say I've moved past.
Some people struggle with cheating. I recommend giving them a second chance. Talk to them privately and tell them you know they're cheating. Explain the cheating makes the game less fun for everyone else, and in the long run will make the game less fun for them. Explain that you might have to take action if the cheating continues.
Another good technique is to just place a rule that all dice must be seen by you. If someone picks up the die before you see it, they have to reroll.
Don't just kick the player out. That denies them the chance to change. Only kick them if they prove unwilling. And the negative level seems...well, I guess it's better than kicking them. It's harsh, but if that's the kind of game you run, I guess it works.
I take a finger.
I initiate the negative level if I flat out catch them cheating. If you make a mistake then fair enough, but doing it on purpose calls for consequences.
Are you responding to me? I never said anything about mistakes. I'm talking about deliberate cheating.
Must not make joke about death sentences...
And nobody needed a negative level there, either. XD
Now what do you do if you think the GM is fudging rolls? ("I roll a lot of 20s" and strangely just about everything makes my stupidly high DC for witch hexes.)
Depends if you roll openly or not, in most cases. The DM screen determines that.
The players in my table accept DM fudging to a limited extent*, though I try not to do so often**.
* = One of the players is so tall he sees past the screen, which is troublesome when I do try to fudge a roll.
** = I also rarely fudge in favor of the enemy, unless it's to make a big battle more exciting. I'd let a Slumber Hex still hit when it does.
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Sunder their dice.
Truly though, I came up with the best punishment, so now it is story time. The group had been gaming with this guy for a while, a corpulent chap who rolled the tiniest of die, hid them with his hand, then picked them up, and told us what the number was. The sad thing is, he used to be more honest, but then the stakes rose, and the pc had to climb a dormant volcano and climb down the icy interior (snow witches) while fighting monsters all the way. This was heavily spelunky influenced.
Anyway, my good friend alerted me that he had been keeping track, and the average roll of our friend was 17 on the d20, over three sessions. He never rolled 1s, no matter the die, and he was clearly cheating. So I watched him, and it was true. The guy kept his small die out of reading range, then picked it up, slightly moved it as need be, and read that out to us.
I didn't call him an out and out cheat, I instead put in a rule. Dice must be rolled in front of everyone "right here in front of us, all in the open". There was to be no picking them up until they had bee read, if you did not comply the dice roll didn't count. Or, he could use large dice and roll them a bit further back. He opted for the smaller dice really close.
That went well for a bit, and lo and behold his average dropped to 9. Fancy that. Guy started getting a bit sad (this "man" who cheats at an rpg game with friends is about 26 by the way), and when it came to the crunch (you know nothing of the crunch, you've never even been to the crunch) he rolled his d20 and did his old tricks. Said he got a 20. Turns out, he actually did on this one, but it didn't count because he was up to his old tricks again and hiding it with his hand and picking it up. So he had to roll it again and he failed his check. Oh how cruel fate was to him that day.
With his dice under scrutiny, his char foolishly set off a trap after the dungeon was completed and the boss was defeated, and he was killed by a pack of summoned winter wolves. They were brought in by labourers for the witch queen, that the pc was harassing, activating a self-defence trap which killed him in no time before the party could save him.
Guy finally played by the rules, and died because of a bad decision.
Simply, have them roll the dice in front of you, or rolls don't count. I'm up for a level being taken too, but pointing and laughing is also effective, if only to see their terrible attempts at bluffing.
In another game, I informed the dm that this guy cheated at dice and he was cheating in this game too (again the mysterious average 17 re-emerged over multiple sessions). Dm didn't know what to do, so I kept an eye on our friend.
I don't fudge the dice, it lands where ever it lands good or bad.
As the dice gods will it!