Anyone else feel that Mythic Saves might be a little too much?

[Foofer]

Mythic characters are supposed to perform on a different level from those who are not graced with such abilities, but even so I feel that the ability to automatically pass every save forced upon mythic character by a non-mythic source is too powerful an ability.
It turns every encounter from a non-mythic source that relies on spells or abilities into child's play, and I feel like it would put too much stress on the DM in designing encounters unless they were going to place a mythic tier upon everything you face.
There is also no such ability which grants mythic characters a near perfect defense against non-mythic characters in physical combat, so I don't understand why they would be so strong against magic.
I do feel like Mythic characters should be better at resisting spells, I just don't think they should be immune to such a great number of them. I don't yet have an idea for an alternative, but I'd welcome suggestions if anyone has some.

[Russ Taylor]

Two rolls, keep highest?

[amorangias]

If it was Tier 1, I'd share your worry. At Tier 5, it seems about right. A spellcaster who knows his job will simply fall back on spells that don't require saving throws, so this mostly shuts down already suboptimal tactics and various "cheap shots".

[Foofer]

amorangias wrote:

If it was Tier 1, I'd share your worry. At Tier 5, it seems about right. A spellcaster who knows his job will simply fall back on spells that don't require saving throws, so this mostly shuts down already suboptimal tactics and various "cheap shots".

You could be right as there are plenty of decent spells that don't rely on saves. I'm not sure though, I still worry that this will significantly lower the options a DM has for encounters.

My own DM expressed her concern with the ability, which is why I brought it up. It's a Planescape game using pathfinder rules, and though she wants us to eventually obtain mythic tiers, she doesn't want us carving through swaths of angels and demons like they were goblins. As well she doesn't want to go and hand out mythic templates to everything we fight.. So I dunno.

[Irontruth]

Russ Taylor wrote:

Two rolls, keep highest?

I like that. Playing 13th Age at the moment where I get to roll twice and it feels quite powerful without being a guarantee. I've heard lots of good things from this method in D&D Next as well.

[Papa Chango]

Advantage/disadvantage is a great mechanic that we see here and there in PF. It's great to see it more present in at Mythic levels.

In the 5e playtest it's just too present and cheapens the mechanic a lot.

[Diego Rossi]

Mythic adventures playtest wrote:

Mythic Saves (Ex): At 5th tier, whenever you succeed at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you suffer no effect as long as that ability did not come from a mythic source, such as a mythic creature or character.

If you fail such a saving throw, you take the reduced effect instead (if one is given by the spell or effect). If the spell comes from a mythic source, you treat the results of any saving throw required by the spell or special ability as normal.

I feel that the wording of this ability is really unclear. It really mean that if you fail the ST you always get the result of making it?

[hgsolo]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Mythic adventures playtest wrote:

Mythic Saves (Ex): At 5th tier, whenever you succeed at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you suffer no effect as long as that ability did not come from a mythic source, such as a mythic creature or character.

If you fail such a saving throw, you take the reduced effect instead (if one is given by the spell or effect). If the spell comes from a mythic source, you treat the results of any saving throw required by the spell or special ability as normal.

I feel that the wording of this ability is really unclear. It really mean that if you fail the ST you always get the result of making it?

The wording is a bit unwieldy, but I think you have it right. Essentially, Mythic Saves works like Improved Evasion, except it applies to all three saves, and does not function against other mythic creatures.

[amorangias]

Foofer wrote:

My own DM expressed her concern with the ability, which is why I brought it up. It's a Planescape game using pathfinder rules, and though she wants us to eventually obtain mythic tiers, she doesn't want us carving through swaths of angels and demons like they were goblins. As well she doesn't want to go and hand out mythic templates to everything we fight.. So I dunno.

To be honest, her expectations may be a bit contradictory. Mythic rules are heavily biased against non-mythic opponents.

That said, she should still be able to challenge you if she knows her job as a GM. And if you ask me, Planescape is a perfect setting for keeping an entire gallery of mythic opponents on retinue.

[DeathQuaker]

amorangias wrote:

Foofer wrote:

My own DM expressed her concern with the ability, which is why I brought it up. It's a Planescape game using pathfinder rules, and though she wants us to eventually obtain mythic tiers, she doesn't want us carving through swaths of angels and demons like they were goblins. As well she doesn't want to go and hand out mythic templates to everything we fight.. So I dunno.

To be honest, her expectations may be a bit contradictory. Mythic rules are heavily biased against non-mythic opponents.

That said, she should still be able to challenge you if she knows her job as a GM. And if you ask me, Planescape is a perfect setting for keeping an entire gallery of mythic opponents on retinue.

I feel that GM's pain. If you've gotta sit down and pick out Mythic Tiers for every damn significant encounter, that is a LOT of work for a GM--especially right now when there's absolutely no digitalization of the process, so you can't just plug a mythic template in with a character generator. Making an existing NPC or monster mythic takes some time, especially as we're still learning the rules. Some people have jobs and families and other hobbies and don't have time to do all that.

While I am okay with the idea that non-mythic enemies are more or less mooks versus non-mythic characters, there should be a way to keep them as viable encounters if a GM wants to use them for simplicity's sake, even if it's as speedbumps rather than major threats. And Pathfinder already makes it too easy for ordinary heroes to have high saving throws anyway, in my experience (or maybe my players just roll insanely well).

And frankly, if they're supposed to be immune to non-mythic magic, then do that in a more clear way. Rather than boosting saving throws, at a certain tier, make them immune to the magic of a school of their choice when that magic is cast by a non-mythic being, rather than force saving throws you know they'll make anyway and then have to figure out whatever the heck a "reduced effect" is per spell. They can add additional immunities at higher tiers. So if your hero is uncorruptable in spirit, then they can be immune to enchantment spells cast by mere mortals, and if they are just truly physically resilient, then immune to non-mythic evocation and transmutation spells, and so on. But whatever they're not immune to, they make normal saving throws. It would keep them powerful and unique without as much die rolling and such.

[thejeff]

Mythic Saves wrote:

At 5th tier, whenever you succeed

at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you
suffer no effect as long as that ability did not come from
a mythic source, such as a mythic creature or character.
If you fail such a saving throw, you take the reduced
effect instead (if one is given by the spell or effect). If the
spell comes from a mythic source, you treat the results
of any saving throw required by the spell or special
ability as normal.

I don't see that as immune to non-mythic magic. It's much more like evasion, though not for only Reflex Saves. If you make the save, you're not affected, even if the spell normally has an effect on a successful save (half-damage or whatever). If you fail the save and the spell would normally have an effect on successful save, you take that, otherwise you take the normal effect.

The phrasing could be better.

[Matrix Dragon]

One interesting side effect of this is that non-mythics simply can't use a save or die effect on a T5 or higher mythic character. It will never have full effect. Which makes sense I suppose, but it does mean that GMs have to rethinkink encounters quite a bit.

[thejeff]

Matrix Dragon wrote:

One interesting side effect of this is that non-mythics simply can't use a save or die effect on a T5 or higher mythic character. It will never have full effect. Which makes sense I suppose, but it does mean that GMs have to rethinkink encounters quite a bit.

Are there Save or Dies that don't have no effect on a successful save? Those would still work normally.

It's kind of weird because normally a spell that still has some effect on a save is better, but against Mythics it's worse. That seems wrong.

[Matrix Dragon]

thejeff wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

One interesting side effect of this is that non-mythics simply can't use a save or die effect on a T5 or higher mythic character. It will never have full effect. Which makes sense I suppose, but it does mean that GMs have to rethinkink encounters quite a bit.

Are there Save or Dies that don't have no effect on a successful save? Those would still work normally.

It's kind of weird because normally a spell that still has some effect on a save is better, but against Mythics it's worse. That seems wrong.

Ahh, I missed that part. Yea, you're right, that's pretty odd. It creates weird situations where Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer are worthless because they have reduced effects, but Flesh to Stone works just fine.

[Diego Rossi]

thejeff wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

One interesting side effect of this is that non-mythics simply can't use a save or die effect on a T5 or higher mythic character. It will never have full effect. Which makes sense I suppose, but it does mean that GMs have to rethinkink encounters quite a bit.

Are there Save or Dies that don't have no effect on a successful save? Those would still work normally.

It's kind of weird because normally a spell that still has some effect on a save is better, but against Mythics it's worse. That seems wrong.

Actually, it don't say that it work like 3.5 mettle:

"If you fail such a saving throw, you take the reduced effect instead (if one is given by the spell or effect)."

All spells with something in the ST line have a reduced effect.
As "reduced effect" isn't defined anywhere, as written it can as easily mean "the result of a successful ST", so a spell that is completely negated by a successful ST will get 0 effect.

Simply this power is too badly worded to have a reliable interpretation.

[thejeff]

Diego Rossi wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

One interesting side effect of this is that non-mythics simply can't use a save or die effect on a T5 or higher mythic character. It will never have full effect. Which makes sense I suppose, but it does mean that GMs have to rethinkink encounters quite a bit.

Are there Save or Dies that don't have no effect on a successful save? Those would still work normally.

It's kind of weird because normally a spell that still has some effect on a save is better, but against Mythics it's worse. That seems wrong.

Actually, it don't say that it work like 3.5 mettle:

"If you fail such a saving throw, you take the reduced effect instead (if one is given by the spell or effect)."

All spells with something in the ST line have a reduced effect.
As "reduced effect" isn't defined anywhere, as written it can as easily mean "the result of a successful ST", so a spell that is completely negated by a successful ST will get 0 effect.

Simply this power is too badly worded to have a reliable interpretation.

I think that's stretching the interpretation too far. If "reduced effect (if one is given by the spell or effect)" means anything then it can't be all spells with a save. The interpretation is clear, though the wording could be improved.

I think it making spells not completely negated with a save worse than spells that are completely negated is a more serious problem.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hey there all,

There are certainly some problems with this ability and I am not sure it is working as intended. It is meant to give mythic characters a certain amount of resilience against nonmythic casters, but I feel that right now it may be going so far as to make them a nonissue in many encounters.

I am looking into it.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[Pendin Fust]

Just from the Core wizard book, 5th level spells:

5th Level Wizard Spells:

Break Enchantment: Saving through is a DC check against 11+Caster Level, not Fort/Ref/Will...is this affected by Mythic Saves?

Dismissal: Will save negates, No effect with Mythic Saves

Mage's Sanctum: No save/Not applicable really.

Cloudkill: Fort save partial, always partial with Mythic Save

Mage's Faithful Hound: No save/Not applicable

Major Creation: No save/Not applicable

Planar Binding, Lesser: Will negates, Mythic Save always negates

Secret Chest: No save/Not applicable

Summon Monster V: No save/Not applicable

Teleport: Target must be willing, so No save/Not applicable

Wall of Stone: Reflex to avoid being trapped, Mythic Save never gets trapped.

Contact Other Plane: No save/Not applicable

Prying Eyes: No save/Not applicable

Telepathic Bond: No save/Not applicable

Dominate Person: Will negates, Mythic Save never gets dominated.

Feeblemind: Will negates, Mythic Save never gets feeblemind.

Hold Monster: Will negates, Mythic Save never gets held.

Mind Fog: Will negates, Mythic Save never gets mind fogged.

Symbol of Sleep: Will negates, Mythic Save never gets symbol of sleeped.

Cone of Cold: Reflex halves, Mythic Save always halved.

Interposing Hand: No save/Not applicable

Sending: No save/Not applicable

Wall of Force: No save/Not applicable

Dream: No save/Not applicable

False Vision: No save/Not applicable

Mirage Arcana: No save/Not applicable

Nightmare: Will negates, Mythic Save always negates (but still doesn't get restful sleep for the next 24 hours so no spell regaining etc.)

Persistent Image: No save/Not applicable

Seeming: Will negates, Mythic Save always negates

Shadow Evocation: Will disbelieves, Mythic Save always disbelieves.

Blight: Fort halves, Mythic Save always halves.

Magic Jar: Will negates, Mythic Save always negates.

Symbol of Pain: Fort negates, Mythic Save always negates.

Waves of Fatigue: No save/Not applicable

Animal Growth: Fort negates, Mythic Save always negates.

Baleful Polymorph: Fort negates, Will partial for abilities, Mythic Save always negates and always keeps abilities.

Beast Shape III: No save/Not applicable

Elemental Body II: No save/Not applicable

Fabricate: No save/Not applicable

Overland Flight: No save/Not applicable

Passwall: No save/Not applicable

Plant Shape I: No save/Not applicable

Polymorph: Will negates, Mythic Save always negates.

Telekinesis: No save for CMB's/etc. but Will save for objects to negate. Mythic Save always negates for their objects.

Transmute Mud to Rock: Reflex Save, Mythic Save always succeeds.

Transmute Rock to Mud: Reflex for half damage if cast where stuff will fall, No save/Not applicable

Permanency: No save/Not applicable

So in recap:

26 5th level spells allow no save or it doesn't apply.
19 Spells have saves to negate and will not affect Mythic Save people.
3 Spells have saves that also have reduced effects.
1 spell has a question (Break Enchantment...does a DC check count as a save since it's not Fort/Ref/Will?)

I counted Telekinesis twice because there is no save against the CMB aspect but there is a save for objects the target is holding.

[thejeff]

Pendin Fust wrote:

Just from the Core wizard book, 5th level spells:

** spoiler omitted **...
So in recap:

26 5th level spells allow no save or it doesn't apply.
19 Spells have saves to negate and will not affect Mythic Save people.
3 Spells have saves that also have reduced effects.
1 spell has a question (Break Enchantment...does a DC check count as a save since it's not Fort/Ref/Will?)

I counted Telekinesis twice because there is no save against the CMB aspect but there is a save for objects the target is holding.

You are taking the interpretation that says "If you fail such a saving throw, you take the reduced effect instead (if one is given by the spell or effect)" means that if there is no specific reduced effect (half damage or partial effect) on a successful save then the "reduced effect" is nothing and the Mythic character is unaffected?

Because that's stretching the language and, from what Jason said, doesn't seem to be the intent.

I would take the other interpretation: If the spell has some effect even with a successful save, the Mythic character does not take that effect if he saves and only takes that effect if he fails. Any spell that has no effect on a successful is not affected by this power.
Thus, only the 3 spells you identify as "have saves that also have reduced effects" are affected by this.

BTW, does this also apply to intentionally failing saves? Are there cases where that would matter?

[Pendin Fust]

Correct, I'm assuming that if the spell lists X negates (or disbelieves or what have you), then the Mythic Save cuts it down to no effect. I agree completely it's a stretch for that assumption, but it can be argued. I was just wanting to break down the numbers for 5th level spells(assuming 5th tier at level 10).

It's a hard one. I understand the intent is not to make 5th tier mythics invulnerable to non-mythic casters, but either Mythic Save isn't that useful (reduced effect of ST negates does not equal no effect) or it's too useful (reduced effect of ST negates equals no effect).

I honestly can't think of a time where intentionally failing a save would even be needed. I mean, if I was GM'ing and a person wanted to cast something beneficial on the party that had a ST...I wouldn't make them roll.

Although without wording to specifically call it out, then as written they WOULD have to roll :/

I wonder if this is another case where Mythic Save should be a roll twice adding in Mythic Tier and take the better result.

[thejeff]

Pendin Fust wrote:

I honestly can't think of a time where intentionally failing a save would even be needed. I mean, if I was GM'ing and a person wanted to cast something beneficial on the party that had a ST...I wouldn't make them roll.

Although without wording to specifically call it out, then as written they WOULD have to roll :/

Yeah, I didn't check the language. You can "voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result", which you do for most buffs & cures. Even technically, since you're not failing, but forgoing, the save, this ability wouldn't affect it.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Is it just me, or would anyone else like an ability that removes the automatic fail on a rolled 1 (for saving throws).

[Pendin Fust]

I'd like to see that ability turn a natural 1 into a natural 20 for 2 mythic points! I want that ability as a general ability!

[Hama]

Nope, that's too much for me. Maybe just limit that a natural 1 is not an automatic fail.

[Lord Embok]

I don't think it's a problem. If the PCs have 5 mythic tiers and the enemy doesn't, that means the monster or enemy's CR is Level + 5 just for a fodder encounter. An epic boss fight would have a CR of 8 higher than the party's level. At that point the PCs *need* this ability to even have a chance.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Lord Embok wrote:

I don't think it's a problem. If the PCs have 5 mythic tiers and the enemy doesn't, that means the monster or enemy's CR is Level + 5 just for a fodder encounter. An epic boss fight would have a CR of 8 higher than the party's level. At that point the PCs *need* this ability to even have a chance.

Not always true. If a GM wants to challenge his party of level 10 characters with 5 mystic tiers, he might just give them a CR 18 Dragon to fight. Of course you could always make an existing creature slightly mythic, but that just adds another level of complexity to the creature.

[Hama]

Multiple characters vs a single powerfull monster always have the advantage of numbers. The powerful monster can (and probably will) kill or drop into negatives one or two characters during the fight, but the probability is relatively high that the party will come out on top.

But i am certain that mythic monsters are very fun to pit against players. I've considered to give some of the mundane monsters some mythic abilities without tiers, just because they are awesome and fresh.

[Lord Embok]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Lord Embok wrote:

I don't think it's a problem. If the PCs have 5 mythic tiers and the enemy doesn't, that means the monster or enemy's CR is Level + 5 just for a fodder encounter. An epic boss fight would have a CR of 8 higher than the party's level. At that point the PCs *need* this ability to even have a chance.

Not always true. If a GM wants to challenge his party of level 10 characters with 5 mystic tiers, he might just give them a CR 18 Dragon to fight. Of course you could always make an existing creature slightly mythic, but that just adds another level of complexity to the creature.

...I'm not sure how what you're saying is a response to my post.

[Peter Stewart]

I like the roll twice idea vs. nonmythic foes, as in practice it removes the 'fails on a natural 1' issue (something that the system has long needed at high or epic levels depending on your level of optimization), gives a tangible bonus to saves on average, but does not render all save allowing spells meaningless.

You might consider going with some thing like that, plus a mythic point to use the earlier version.

[The Block Knight]

Lord Embok wrote:

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Lord Embok wrote:

I don't think it's a problem. If the PCs have 5 mythic tiers and the enemy doesn't, that means the monster or enemy's CR is Level + 5 just for a fodder encounter. An epic boss fight would have a CR of 8 higher than the party's level. At that point the PCs *need* this ability to even have a chance.

Not always true. If a GM wants to challenge his party of level 10 characters with 5 mystic tiers, he might just give them a CR 18 Dragon to fight. Of course you could always make an existing creature slightly mythic, but that just adds another level of complexity to the creature.

...I'm not sure how what you're saying is a response to my post.

My guess would be that Sebastian misunderstood your post. Right now, I'm on the same side of the fence as you Lord Embok. Still need to see it in play though. My group should be playtesting Tier 5+ either this week or next. I'm thinking that the Mythic saves will balance out the fact that the party will only be Level 10 (APL 15) but the creatures will be CR 15+. We'll see.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Lord Embok wrote:

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Lord Embok wrote:

I don't think it's a problem. If the PCs have 5 mythic tiers and the enemy doesn't, that means the monster or enemy's CR is Level + 5 just for a fodder encounter. An epic boss fight would have a CR of 8 higher than the party's level. At that point the PCs *need* this ability to even have a chance.

Not always true. If a GM wants to challenge his party of level 10 characters with 5 mystic tiers, he might just give them a CR 18 Dragon to fight. Of course you could always make an existing creature slightly mythic, but that just adds another level of complexity to the creature.

...I'm not sure how what you're saying is a response to my post.

Yeah, sorry about that I got kinda distracted when I was posting and totally lost the point I was trying to make ^^