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Personally, I think that creating inflated statistics for deities seems a bit silly. I mean, why is there such a need for that much more power when by the time the campaign has hit 20th level the PCs are by most definitions themselves godlike. Follow me here for a moment.
By 20th level, a wizard is perfectly capable of achieving immortality through one of several methods (the wizard can become undead, can acquire a wizard-only feature, could conceivably become an outsider, or merely arrange to be re-incarnated with clones more or less forever).
That same wizard is capable of doing godlike things, including (but not limited to) commanding spiritual entities, creating creatures, turning dirt into people, traversing any distance in the blink of any eye and arriving right where they intend to, and having the ability to peek in on people while they're singing in the shower from most anywhere.
Meanwhile the kinds of things that the PCs already stand to face at this level include pit fiends and solars which qualify for most definitions of being a deity as well (immortality, godlike powers, etc). The pit fiend alone can quite literally turn anyone or anything into a soul gem at will, and the solar could have saved the dinosaurs from a meteor if he wanted to (miracle could be used to avert the disaster which destroyed the world).
I don't really see the need to really make them significantly more powerful than this. The tarrasque is kind of a joke-monster for its CR, but does a deity really need to be all that much greater than a solar? Or a demon lord? I mean, it seems like we're creating a new definition for deities of "cannot be defeated" which pretty much sets a rather biased standard against quite a number of campaigns. The idea that a deity in D&D is not omnipotent is not uncommon. Famous campaigns such as the Forgotten Realms have included things like ascension through combat (such as was the plane of Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul; though the god they intended to overthrow merely gave them his rule willingly).
Let's be sensible here for a moment and think about just what fighting a deity, even if that deity was only CR 25, would entail for a moment. More than likely you'd need to first traverse to the plane they reside on (utterly destroying your chances for using spells like banishment on the deity's minions since they're on their home plane). Then you would need to reach the deity in question. Now let's assume that our deity and his entourage is a CR 27 encounter. Let us look at what that could entail.
1 CR 25 outsider of incredible power (1,638,400 XP)
1 CR 23 solar, the "right hand" (819,200 XP)
2 CR 16 planetars, the generals (153,600 XP)
4 CR 14 trumpet archons, the messengers (76,800 XP)
10 CR 13 ghaele azatas (256,000 XP)
20 CR 10 aasimar cleric 1 / warrior 20 (192,000 XP)
106 CR 3 lantern archons (63,600 XP)
The entire dominion of the deity has had continual flame cast on it (every brick, pillar, candle, and piece of equipment) by the lantern archons ahead of time, meaning there is no place in the deity's sanctum that you can use Stealth in (even with Hide in Plain Sight) due to the ban on Stealthing in brightly lit areas (see environment). Without so much as getting into the deity's capabilities (because it's up in the air as to how powerful the deity itself would be, but CR 25 would be equivalent to about 2 solars), just the deity's minions would...
1) If there is room the Solar begins spamming summon monster VII to spawn celestial tyrannosaurs to pester their foes. Then begins shooting at enemies with its +5 slaying arrows.
2) The planetars open up with waves of exhaustion which cast back to back ensures that every enemy in the area is going to be exhausted regardless of their saves (on a successful save they are fatigued, and fatigue + fatigue = exhausted). That means no running, no charging (no pouncing either), -6 Str/Dex, etc.
3) The trumpet archons all cast banishment forcing 4 DC 21 Will saves or the invaders are punted off the plane instantly (unless they have denied themselves the ability to use teleportation via a dimensional anchor cast on themselves).
4) The ghaele azatas pick a foe that looks good (or a group of foes since it's a small AoE) and cast flamestrike in unison vs the foe. Even if the foe is immune to fire and makes all 10 of their Reflex saves they still suffer an average of 114 divine damage. They might do this up to two times (since being the consort of a deity have no reason to prepare raise dead instead of more flame strikes).
5) The aasimar warriors would would be spamming ranged attacks at the party with reckless abandon (sporting feat such as point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot, improved precise shot, and pinpoint targeting). Using Pinpoint Targeting, each of the aasimar could aim at someone and target their touch-AC except it's not considered a touch-attack and thus can use Deadly Aim (so a single foe may be taking around 330 damage if they are using nothing more than masterwork longbows {not even composite longbows} from the focus-firing).
6) The lantern archons pester invaders with their ranged touch attacks and perfect flight. Their ranged touch attacks are minor but they have 2/round and they ignore all damage reduction and resistances, and there is 106 of the lil' bastards so as you kill 'em off (with spells most likely) they just keep coming in waves upon waves of lantern archons).
And of course the deity itself would get to act. Most likely, assuming it's roughly equivalent to two solars in terms of strength it wouldn't be unusual for it to have at least CL 20th theurgic casting, which means that you're looking at possibly timestop followed by some crazy buffing, followed by quickened timestop (via metamagic rod due to having triple CR 25 treasure which is around 20th level PC WBL) and gate a few times to spawn in re-enforcements, followed by another quickened time stop and dazing blade barrier centered on the enemy a few times (which means once the timestop ends the enemy will suffer damage from each blade barrier spell centered on them and then must make a will save vs each barrier (probably around DC 30-40) or be dazed for 6 rounds (nothing in core is immune to dazing by the way) and if you biff so much as a single instance of this saving throw you're effectively dead.
...which is why I think it's kind of stupid to want deities with bigger numbers.
That's why I really like the idea of mythic tiers, so to rid of constant big numbers to do cool things.
Some things that I think are really cool and godlike with 10 mythic tiers.
Like a 10th tier guardian can coup de grace himself with a huge cannon and will do zero damage just from using absorb blow and with his capstone active.
A 10th tier caster with mythic timestop can get 20 hours of free time to himself. Imagine a shantak (which has the ability to fly to distant planets with in hours) had that? That kind of speed might give the flash a run for his money, lol.
Might not be relevant at all to what's being discussed here atm, but these abilities I mentioned are still cool and worth mentioning.
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@ Ravingdork and Ashiel -- You two are hilarious. Your builds mean nothing to Hecate.
1) Dust of Sneezing is 2400g a pop. At 6th level, you'd have a max of six of them and no other defenses. Even if you were able to stun her, you'd never be able to hit her because her flat-footed's so high. You'd have to roll natural 20s nonstop ever round. However, you'd never critical.
2) Hecate's not blind. She'd see an army of shadows coming. She has unlimited spells. Shadows are mere low level undead. Command Undead works wonders. Especially when you've got an unlimited number of uses. And she's got Summon Monster CR 25 at-will. Lots of dracoliches for her to command. Then there's the fact that she's the god of the undead. Surely with her unlimited spells she could turn them or command them. Worst case scenario, lots of hellball spells come down. She's not just going to sit there for an unlimited number of rounds waiting to be bad touched.
Seeing as the god presented isn't really a legal Pathfinder stat block anyways (it's v3.5) I'm not going to bother arguing the point.
You're wrong about the price of the dust, however. Cursed items, being cursed items, don't have a price directly associated with them. They cost as much as the item they are meant to emulate. Therefore, dust of choking and sneezing that appears to be dust of tracelessness would only cost 250gp (125gp if you made it yourself).
If you really feel like you "won" this ridiculous challenge, feel free to throw a party. Means naught to me. Just don't expect me to have a childish back and forth with you like little kids.
"I shot you."
"No you didn't! I was wearing body armor."
"Oh yeah? I was using armor-piercing bullets!"
Yeah, whatever. I have better things to do than watch you move goal posts--like maintaining my awesome Crazy Character Emporium. ;D
@ Ravingdork and Ashiel -- You two are hilarious. Your builds mean nothing to Hecate.
1) Dust of Sneezing is 2400g a pop. At 6th level, you'd have a max of six of them and no other defenses. Even if you were able to stun her, you'd never be able to hit her because her flat-footed's so high. You'd have to roll natural 20s nonstop ever round. However, you'd never critical.
2) Hecate's not blind. She'd see an army of shadows coming. She has unlimited spells. Shadows are mere low level undead. Command Undead works wonders. Especially when you've got an unlimited number of uses. And she's got Summon Monster CR 25 at-will. Lots of dracoliches for her to command. Then there's the fact that she's the god of the undead. Surely with her unlimited spells she could turn them or command them. Worst case scenario, lots of hellball spells come down. She's not just going to sit there for an unlimited number of rounds waiting to be bad touched.
Why is Hecate the Goddess of the dead? Hecate was a Goddess of magic in Greek Mythology. You're wanting Hades, or more specifically, Thanatos, as God of the Dead.
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Why is Hecate the Goddess of the dead? Hecate was a Goddess of magic in Greek Mythology. You're wanting Hades, or more specifically, Thanatos, as God of the Dead.@ Ravingdork and Ashiel -- You two are hilarious. Your builds mean nothing to Hecate.
1) Dust of Sneezing is 2400g a pop. At 6th level, you'd have a max of six of them and no other defenses. Even if you were able to stun her, you'd never be able to hit her because her flat-footed's so high. You'd have to roll natural 20s nonstop ever round. However, you'd never critical.
2) Hecate's not blind. She'd see an army of shadows coming. She has unlimited spells. Shadows are mere low level undead. Command Undead works wonders. Especially when you've got an unlimited number of uses. And she's got Summon Monster CR 25 at-will. Lots of dracoliches for her to command. Then there's the fact that she's the god of the undead. Surely with her unlimited spells she could turn them or command them. Worst case scenario, lots of hellball spells come down. She's not just going to sit there for an unlimited number of rounds waiting to be bad touched.
On a side note, Hecate was my favorite patron goddess in Age of Mythologies: Titans. What amuses me the most about the rebuttal is that it seemed to strike a nerve. What amuses me more is the fact that, again, forcing the deity to flee or waste actions swatting gnats. Since the deity in the statblock had no special sensory abilities listed, simply flying through the ground until in roughly the correct area would pretty much allow them to swarm her. Being incorporeal means that you can get attacked in 3 dimensions from every possible angle. Only six need to strike her to kill her, statistically. It's kind of funny, actually.
Really, her statistics are inflated and for seemingly no reason. She's not scary, she's not interesting, and she's not very special, except she has big numbers. Big numbers mean very little in the grand scheme of things. I'd much rather see a CR 25 deity that was competent and could shirk such paltry attempts at deicide as laughable (in much the same way that a carpet bombing of shadows is not a serious threat to a good party of high level PCs). The shadow scheme wouldn't function vs a Solar (a creature that would assuredly be worshiped as a god in reality), yet it would force that "Hecate" into fleeing the scene at least to keep from dying to a buncha CR 3 enemies. It's "lolzy". :P
If you're going to give deities deity-specific powers, at least make them interesting. Not much is more boring than "Harhar, I haz more numbers than j00". I'd much rather see a "Hecate" that was more along the lines of a CR 25 creature, except perhaps with more interesting abilities such as:
Trivia Form (Su): As a move action Hecate can create two copies of herself: Hecate of the Past and Hecate of the Future. These copies are identical to Hecate except that they lack this ability and have two negative levels (these negative levels cannot be removed in any way). While the copies exist Hecate gains two negative levels which cannot be removed until the copies are destroyed or she dismisses them (as a free action). Hecate and her copies all share the same mind. Mind-affecting effects that affect one affects the others, though this state grants a +6 bonus on Will saving throws against mind-affecting effects. At any time (even when it is not her turn) Hecate can choose one of her copies to become the real Hecate (instead of a copy) and her original body to be treated as a copy instead (allowing her to dismiss it as desired). Though this ability is a supernatural one, the copies are not (nor is the option to allow a copy to become the real Hecate) and thus they continue to exist where supernatural abilities do not function (such as in an antimagic field).
Hounds of Hecate (Su): Once per round as a free action, Hecate can summon a pack of hounds to her aid as if by a summon monster spell except that the range is long (400 ft. +40 ft. / level) and she may summon as many as she likes as long as their combined experience value is CR 16 or less (for example, Hecate could summon eight CR 9 Nessian Hell Hounds or one CR 16 26 HD huge nessian hell hound). The type of hounds that Hecate can summon with this ability are Hell Hounds, dogs, riding dogs, wolves, dire wolves, worgs, and winter wolves (and advanced versions of any of these). She typically favors calling two CR 14 22 HD nessian hell hounds each round.
Paired Torches (Su): Hecate has two torches that hover around her. One a white flame casting a powerful light radius and another a black flame that fills an area with darkness. The light torch functions as if under the effects of a 9th level continual flame spell while the darkness torch functions as if under the effects of a 9th level deeper darkness spell. Once each round as a free action Hecate can decide which of the two torches is dominant (light or dark). In either case Hecate can see in the radius of these torches as if under the effects of true seeing. Hecate may dismiss or recall these torches as a free action (even if the torches have been destroyed).
Robe of Spells (Su): Hecate is empowered by her magic in ways that others cannot fully comprehend. Hecate gains a circumstance bonus to all attacks, saves, and checks equal to the highest level spell she can cast (typically a +9 bonus, included in her statblock). If Hecate would fail a saving throw she may expend a spell or unused spell slot to re-roll the saving throw with a bonus equal to the level of the expended spell or spell slot.
Limitless Magic (Ex): Hecate can any 1st through 6th level spell she has prepared at-will as a spell-like ability, and any 7th-9th level spell she has prepared 3/day as a spell-like ability. Hecate may apply the benefits of feats that modify spell-like abilities (such as Quicken Spell-like Ability) to new spell-like abilities each day.
^ The above special powers on a CR 23-25 creature would be WAAAAAAY more interesting (both from a stylistic perspective and for a battle) than bigger numbers. Assuming she had theurgic casting between druid and wizard spells (which would be appropriate for Hecate) then she would be wickedly versatile, flood the field with minions each round on the round (possibly requiring people to continue to dismiss or wipe her trash mobs each round to avoid getting overcrowded), and she has some powerful defensive abilities, and can split herself into three of her (literally tripling her action economy at the cost of 2 negative levels).
Ashiel has a good point for Hecate. it works much better than inflating the numbers. with her example, you don't need a 40+ HD abomination.
:O
Three Hecates means 6 of those damnable hounds each round plus whatever the three of them decide to summon with their 9th-level spells!
Again,
:O
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Seeing as the god presented isn't really a legal Pathfinder stat block anyways (it's v3.5) I'm not going to bother arguing the point.
You're wrong about the price of the dust, however. Cursed items, being cursed items, don't have a price directly associated with them. They cost as much as the item they are meant to emulate. Therefore, dust of choking and sneezing that appears to be dust of tracelessness would only cost 250gp (125gp if you made it yourself).
If you really feel like you "won" this ridiculous challenge, feel free to throw a party. Means naught to me. Just don't expect me to have a childish back and forth with you like little kids.
"I shot you."
"No you didn't! I was wearing body armor."
"Oh yeah? I was using armor-piercing bullets!"Yeah, whatever. I have better things to do than watch you move goal posts--like maintaining my awesome Crazy Character Emporium. ;D
Like I care about your not caring.
And going with 3.5, that's where the cost of the dust comes from. The fact that Cursed Items aren't more money in Pathfinder is ridiculous.
And Tels, Hecate has the key to the Underworld. In the stat block it said that she was the god of the underworld. Likely a typo if she was actually the goddess of magic.
What's ridiculous is your trying to apply another game's rules to Pathfinder.
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Foolish mortals! The Great Lord Ashiel has, in his infinite whimsy, graced you with the creation of a deity. The All Mighty Lord Ashiel may spawn such powerful beings into the world with but a thought, and with but a thought, he may take them away.
BOW BEFORE THE GLORY THAT IS THE LORD ASHIEL!
And Tels, Hecate has the key to the Underworld. In the stat block it said that she was the god of the underworld. Likely a typo if she was actually the goddess of magic.
I didn't bother reading your stat-block until now, but nowhere in the stat block does it say Hecate has anything to do with the underworld or the dead.
Traditional Greek Mythology has Hecate basically being the Goddess of Magic. She holds influence over magic, sorcery, witchcraft, and necromancy I believe. She is also associated with some other things, but it's been awhile since I did a bunch of research for the Greek Gods in Highschool.
Anyway, why you think Hecate is the Goddess of the Dead, I don't know, but if some 3.5 3rd Party labeled her as the Goddess of the Dead, then they really need to do some basic research. Hell, watching the Disney movie Hercules or a basic Wikipedia search would have shown them a better 'God of the Dead' than Hecate.
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Tone it down.
I think we all know how this one-up-manship crap goes.
There's plenty to discuss without bickering and making yourselves look foolish.
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Regardless of what everyone's going on about, I just posted the name of the book that the original poster can use if they want to make their own deities. The book exists. You can use it. Regardless of whether it's 3.5 3pp or not, it can be adapted to Pathfinder for use. At the very least it gives you an idea for what you're wanting. Other than that, I'm done with the thread.
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Foolish mortals! The Great Lord Ashiel has, in his infinite whimsy, graced you with the creation of a deity. The All Mighty Lord Ashiel may spawn such powerful beings into the world with but a thought, and with but a thought, he may take them away.
BOW BEFORE THE GLORY THAT IS THE LORD ASHIEL!
As my responsibility to provide my follows with spe-- I mean favorites, +1. :P
:O
Three Hecates means 6 of those damnable hounds each round plus whatever the three of them decide to summon with their 9th-level spells!
Again,
:O
Yep! That's the plan, and pretty solid for the type of thing that a CR 25 creature should be capable of by curbstomping action economy. Keep in mind a CR 25 creature is supposed to be the equivalent of about 6 Pit Fiends. SIX OF THEM! A single Pit Fiend can summon another pit fiend with 100 % chance. If we were fighting a CR 25 group of pit fiends, you'd actually be facing about 12 of them (6 originals, 6 summoned fiends). I think the above for Hecate is pretty fair if you consider her all by her lonesome self to be a CR 25. :)
Also, the special abilities I wrote for her were based on a theme, but similar things for other deities could exist. In Hecate's instance, she is typically depicted as a triplicate-formed deity who resides over crossroads and such. She's actually a surprisingly rounded deity, with a smattering of plants and herbs and childbirth and such tossed in for good measure. Out of the Greek pantheon she is probably my favorite deity by far based on what I've read about her.
Those abilities I put up weren't merely just examples of powerful abilities. Quite the contrary. I was thinking in my head how I'd want a combat with Hecate to function at high levels, and how I'd want it to tactically resolve, and built it around from there. I liked the themed idea of her having a maiden, a mother, and a crone form that shared vision and wisdom, and it fit perfectly for her Trivia Form which allowed her to split into 3 marginally weaker versions to expand action economy. The ability to flood the area with hounds (her hounds historically are both for good and for ill) make it difficult to focus fire on her without issuing some heavy crowd-control abilities such as holy word or banishment liberally (so in a 4 person party you'd probably have 1-2 individuals focusing on wiping her trash mobs while the rest of the party and their minions go after Hecate herself).
And that's assuming, of course, that the party is fighting ONLY Hecate. Again, if it was a CR 27 encounter (Hecate + Minions) god help you (heehee). Of course, we're talking about 20th+ level characters here so we also have access to things like clone (so you can quite literally explode out of your bag of holding when you die), simulacrum (I'd recommend my nerfed re-write of Simulacrum so you, y'know, couldn't make sexy Hecate simulacrums that could spam hordes of CR 16 hounds :P), gate (allowing you to call Solars to assist you), and so forth. That's before adding in things like martial characters, cohorts, companions, and familiars into the mix.
I think it would be a fun, fun battle, and something that would be appropriately epic. ^-^
Regardless of what everyone's going on about, I just posted the name of the book that the original poster can use if they want to make their own deities. The book exists. You can use it. Regardless of whether it's 3.5 3pp or not, it can be adapted to Pathfinder for use. At the very least it gives you an idea for what you're wanting. Other than that, I'm done with the thread.
Why so serious?
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Advice from deadlands:
If you stat it, they WILL kill it.
Advice from deadlands:
If you stat it, they WILL kill it.
I remember that quote. Deadlands was fun. It's also the reason I never used Stone in anything and wouldn't. I felt it ruined the game.
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Okay it appears I may have been mistaken on the view that they will never stat gods. However from what James says to the question it still dosent sound like a normal Pathfinder character could kill them.
(Please keep in mind this is all just Jamse's opinion on how it should work and dosent mean they would do it this way if at all).
If, some day in the future, we decide to publish an expansion to the game that allows players to play full on deities (not just demigods), then yes, we'd likely stat up the gods. In a case like this, my preference would be to develop a pretty drastically different system though; one that allows "translation" from the core/mythic game but not relatively easy translation, so that you wouldn't really be able to effectively fight a god even with a mythic character, and so that the game gets SIMPLER at the deity level rather then progressively more complex.So this means a chance of all the Golarion gods being statted up?If Mythic Adventures goes over really well, and if folks love it enough to want another ramping up of the power level as an option, the next step up from Mythic Adventures being Deific Adventures makes a fair amount of sense.So this was brought up in another thread but is there any possibility of full blown deities being given stats in the near or far future. Or Paizo making rules for stating full deities?
Thread in question is this one here
Okay it appears I may have been mistaken on the view that they will never stat gods. However from what James says to the question it still dosent sound like a normal Pathfinder character could kill them.
(Please keep in mind this is all just Jamse's opinion on how it should work and dosent mean they would do it this way if at all).
If, some day in the future, we decide to publish an expansion to the game that allows players to play full on deities (not just demigods), then yes, we'd likely stat up the gods. In a case like this, my preference would be to develop a pretty drastically different system though; one that allows "translation" from the core/mythic game but not relatively easy translation, so that you wouldn't really be able to effectively fight a god even with a mythic character, and so that the game gets SIMPLER at the deity level rather then progressively more complex.So this means a chance of all the Golarion gods being statted up?If Mythic Adventures goes over really well, and if folks love it enough to want another ramping up of the power level as an option, the next step up from Mythic Adventures being Deific Adventures makes a fair amount of sense.So this was brought up in another thread but is there any possibility of full blown deities being given stats in the near or far future. Or Paizo making rules for stating full deities?
Thread in question is this one here
I thought this was a rather odd post when I saw it, because James has been one of the most vocal about 'never stating up deities'. He has, time and time again, said that Paizo will never allow for the Golarion Deities to be killed by mortals, yet now he's hedging into the possibility they might one day do something like that.
Sounds to me like someone has an idea at Paizo, and they overruled him.
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Actually, this is the post from James:
"If, some day in the future, we decide to publish an expansion to the game that allows players to play full on deities (not just demigods), then yes, we'd likely stat up the gods. In a case like this, my preference would be to develop a pretty drastically different system though; one that allows "translation" from the core/mythic game but not relatively easy translation, so that you wouldn't really be able to effectively fight a god even with a mythic character, and so that the game gets SIMPLER at the deity level rather then progressively more complex."
So it's more of "when we will have rules for playing gods, then you will be able to kill gods, 'cause a deity killing a deity is kosher".
Nothing changed here since James first indicated that deities can be only killed by deities or <UNKNOWN> 4 years ago, and he prefers a system where not even a tier 10 mythic character can kill a deity.
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And this goes back to the "Why we can't have nice things" problem.
They would like to stat out Gods, but as shown in this thread, when you try to add options to the game, the Lollypop Guild starts on the march to find ways to break the options.
James also wasn't to fond of having guns in Golarion, but it happened because there was customer interest, and the customers pay for the product.
If there is enough interest, they will stat out the Gods. If they stat out the gods, the munchkins will go on the march and the threads will burn from the flamewars.
Why don't we have a theorycraft section, again?
I still suspect quite a bit of this is hedging. Once mythic is out, I think they have bigger fish to fry, so I would guess it would be at least 2 or more years before we anything like a deific/epic rules set. Just my personal opinion of course.
And of course a lot of whether that happens will be how popular mythic is. If mythic underperforms...well kiss any chance of seeing diety stats bye bye.
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I think we are more likely to see a new version before we see any past 20 add ons beyond Mythic. I think Mythic is the approach they are taking, given the limits of the math.
And I'm fine with that, personally, as at this rate I think we will need a reboot (not a new version, more changes along similar lines of 3.5 to Pathfinder) around the same time WoTC unveils their new line.
And maybe that version can be written with a better eye toward high level play. We have to remember, as brilliant as what Jason pulled off was, that was a rush job facing desperation and collapse.
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And maybe that version can be written with a better eye toward high level play. We have to remember, as brilliant as what Jason pulled off was, that was a rush job facing desperation and collapse.
I have to admit, I'd really like to see what Paizo would be capable of designing their own system that they didn't limit by attempting to remain backwards compatible. I'm not sure if that's how Pathfinder 2E will shake out though...from some of the things I've read on here, I fear that it will simply end up being 3.875.
Sooner or later people are going to have to accept that simply wrapping more and more tape around the d20 system isn't going to magically eliminate it's inherent flaws. It will at best hide them for a while.
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I like this for a True Deity's stat block:
Spoiler:The perfect stat block for archdevils/gods:
Init He goes first; Senses all; Perception He sees you
DEFENSE
AC You don't hit him
hp More than you'll ever whittle away, even if you could hit him
Auto-Save vs Mortals
OFFENSE
Speed: Damn Fast
Melee: He kills you
Ranged: He kills you from across the room
Special Attacks: Lots of them
STATISTICS
Str High, Dex High, Con High, Int High, Wis High, Cha High
Base Atk His attack succeeds; CMB He gets you; CMD You don't get him
Feats: Most of them
Skills: Most of them Auto-Succeed
SQ: Lots of them
Combat Gear: Pretty much anything he wantsOkay, so what about this statblock vs. this statblock?
This is a funny answer, but it's also dismissive. It doesn't address my point at all.
I apologize: I wasn't trying to be dismissive. I merely thought this was humorous and wanted to share, and I wasn't replying to anyone in particular.
However, since you raise the question, I might as well answer.
Note, I'm a software dude, this is my opinion only, not that on anyone in editorial.
This is a stat block for Gods vs. Mortals. In the case of Gods vs. Gods, one of two things happpens:
1) Gods have stats that can be directly compared to each other, but are so far above mortals that they round up the the 'auto-win' statblock above. Basically, in this model, Gods can fight each other in a relatively short timeframe, but they're in an entirely different rules system.
2) Gods are more or less invincible to each other as well: at least on timeframes as mortals see them. We already know that Gods have seen whole worlds rise and fall. Even extremely long-lived races like elves and dragons are mayflies to the Gods. A God in direct combat with another God would seem locked in a stalemate to any mortal looking in. Their fight will have a winner, eventually, but that will come so far off in the future it isn't worth thinking about.
Actually, I think the truth is probably closer to 3) The state of divinity is fundamentally foreign to a mortal mind. A mortal has a singular soul, a body, a certain lifespan. A deity is more a name given to a concept. Even ascended mortals like Nethys or the Starstone foursome had to undergo a fundamental change that made them completely different than their mortal selves. Think about it: If (the mortal) Iomedae suddenly found herself with a CR of 40+, I can think of a few places that would have been wiped off the map pretty quickly. Instead, she pretty quickly became a name for a power source in the heavens, letting empowered mortals do anything that actually needed doing in a mortal timeframe. (Similarly Aroden created Absalom while drawing power from the Starstone, but couldn't keep it up for long before becoming an abstraction more than a man.)
If Gods actually retain a sense of self-motivation at all, it operates in a scale much larger in time and space than mortals are equipped to deal with. They simply don't have a body that can be killed. Mortals can't kill Gods because there is nothing to slay with steel or magic. You can't go into Pharasma's court as a mortal, because to a mortal, such a place simply does not exist. Even if you go to Asmodeus's throne room, all you can speak with would be an avatar, or aspect, or some other reduction to mortal scale. That is, the 'I appear in this form for your comfort and understanding' cliche. Slaying such a manifestation might be possible, but matters nothing on a cosmic scale.
The beings that can directly interact with Gods are demigods and outsiders - essentially, immortal beings that are already part abstraction themselves.
TL:DR version - The reason Gods don't have stat blocks isn't because they're so tough mortals can't possibly win in a fight: it is that you can't fight them at all.
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And maybe that version can be written with a better eye toward high level play. We have to remember, as brilliant as what Jason pulled off was, that was a rush job facing desperation and collapse.I have to admit, I'd really like to see what Paizo would be capable of designing their own system that they didn't limit by attempting to remain backwards compatible. I'm not sure if that's how Pathfinder 2E will shake out though...from some of the things I've read on here, I fear that it will simply end up being 3.875.
Sooner or later people are going to have to accept that simply wrapping more and more tape around the d20 system isn't going to magically eliminate it's inherent flaws. It will at best hide them for a while.
Never let the perfect be the enemy of better.
D20 is the worst rule set, except for all the others.
I'm against statblocks (that is, something similar to bestiary statblocks) on gods not because my players would try to kill it but because it would make the god far less mystical. I'd not buy such a product and I'd shy from all threads about them because what a god is and consists of - that feels like a major spoiler, even for me as a DM.
I understand others think differently, but that's just my view. YMMV.
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D20 is the worst rule set, except for all the others.
Except not everyone agrees with that. Some people think that there are several systems that are better than d20. Even some systems that pre-date it.
For example, I think that BRP, BESM, cWoD, GUMSHOE, and retro D&D (0e, 1e, 2e, B/X, and BECMI/RC) are all better than d20.
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Tangent:
To each there own, but my guess is that it is impossible to produce and edition that all people can agree on is the best.
Everyone has different playstyles, none of which are wrong. Some of those playstyles are going to require completely different rulesets to cater to different players. I suspect any future revision of Pathfinder will largely appeal to 3/3.5 edition folks, if only because that is what they are doing currently, and any drastic move toward as 5e/2e/1e/4e audience may alienate existing customers.
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Something that came up during a conversation with a good friend of mine on Skype was the notion of Tiers in D&D/PF. D&D 3.x/PF spans huge, and I mean huge spans of power. I mean you begin at 1st level a pretty normal person. At best you've got some more skills and are more well-rounded than your NPC classed counterparts, but at the end of the day you're still a living breathing normal person. If you get cut, you bleed. If you fall off a building it may kill you. If you get set on fire, it's bad for your health. Monsters will eat you, and it's hard to do things of inhuman power. On the other end of the spectrum you can skydive through the atmosphere, reach terminal velocity, land face-first on a steel plate and walk away with a bruise. Literally on one side of the spectrum you have "real person" and on the other end you have "living demigod".
1st-5th = Low Fantasy
6th-10th = Fantasy
11th-15th = High Fantasy
16th-20th = Epic Fantasy
I look at what characters are capable of doing in D&D already at higher levels, and I don't see a need for more power. It's needless inflation. I mean, really, how much more powerful do we need to go? We're talking about a 16th level barbarian with average HP (no max HP at 1st level either) and a 16 Con (152 Hp) could be on the edge of space and free-fall from the sky to the ground. Without raging, and impact a concrete runway with his face (assuming maximum possible damage on 20d6 so twenty results of 6 = 120 damage) and he'd not only be able to get up and walk it off, he isn't even at risk of falling unconscious from it. He'll have a bit of an ache for a few days (natural healing without bothering to take a good rest will have him cured in less than 12 days), but he could very well say "Wow, that was awesome, heal me up and let's do that again!"
Hercules was famous for overcoming things like centaur, and hydra. In D&D/PF, these things things aren't exceptionally powerful in the grander scheme of things.
The twelve labors of Hercules include things such as killing a magical lion by grappling and choking it to death when his bow and club would not harm the beast (incidentally a normal or an 11 HD lion with the celestial or fiendish template fits the bill here in the "arrows and clubs don't work on it" sort of thing).
During the 2nd labor he must hunt down a 9-headed hydra (CR 8) and has to enlist aid from a friend to help him cauterize the stumps while he is busy slicing off the beast's heads.
During the 3rd labor he has to catch a rather elusive but apparently nonthreatening beast that belongs to the goddess Artemis. He got frustrated and ended up shooting the critter with an arrow without killing it, and then captured it. He explains his mission to Artemis an she lets the lad off the hook.
During the 4th labor Hercules is a douche and gets drunk, kills two of his friends with poisoned arrows, and then runs down a boar and kills it. Judging by the art, it wasn't even a big boar. Just your garden variety wild boar. Hercules is a douchebag by the way, 'cause doing these labors after Hera messed with his mind and caused him to slaughter his children, and he's doing this so he can make ammends for that (so to do so he lollygags around for a while and murders a few of his friends, like a real hero).
During the 5th labor Hercules decides he wants some beef, cheats at his task, upsets two kings for being a douche, and basically sprayed down the stables with some river water (it notes he diverted a river, but it doesn't say how much/big of a diversion it was or how he funneled the water in). So then his labor is considered void and he has to try again.
During the 6th labor Hercules the demigod can't seem to chase away some birds, and they squawk and squeal at him. He needs the help of the goddess Athena to come help him out, because he is lame, and kind of sucks.
During the 7th labor Hercules has to capture a particularly potent and ill tempered bull (in Pathfinder this might be an advanced auroch or bison). He does so.
During the 8th labor, Hercules makes an ass out of himself again and decides he might as well make amends. So he goes down into the underworld and apparently wrestles with the god Thanatos to get a dead woman back. In D&D this might be equivalent to plane-shifting somewhere to grab someone and bring them back to the material plane, but in this labor he's supposedly pretty awesome 'cause he wrestles a god for somebody. However, following the themes here, these gods don't seem particularly amazing. Most don't even seem as awesome as 15th level D&D characters so it's up in the air as to how amazing it was for him to wrestle one.
During the 9th labor more douchebaggery is afoot, except most of it is now Hera's doing. The goddess uses what amounts to 1st level magic and a bluff check and convinces some Amazons to get uppity. Hercules happily murders a few folks and demonstrates himself to be a Chaotic Neutral murderous hobo if not at chaotic evil. When two gods once again use low-level magics to appear as peasants to test the king, they punish him by using some higher level magics to send a pestilence and sending some sort of sea monster to bother the town. Hercules decides he'll try to rectify the situation by killing the sea monster (though what sort it is is left up in the air) and rescue the King's Daughter, but only in exchange for some pimped out horses. He finally returns with the belt and a few dozen more murders under his belt, presenting them and coming one more step towards Douchebag of the Ages.
During the 10th labor Hercules goes to steal some red cows, clubs a deformed dog to death, then murders a set of malformed triplets or something, and then murders some other guy, and leaves.
During the 11th labor Hercules has to fetch some apples. First he had to wrestle a shapeshifter (could be anything really, no pun intended). The most incredible thing he supposedly does is hold up the world for a while for the Titan Atlas, who supposedly holds up the world. Since there is no D&D/PF analog to this (though Titans are pretty strong) we'll say Hercules does something fairly special here, even if he is a jerk.
Finally the 12th trial comes around 'cause Hercules failed two trials barring divine intervention. So he is tasked with going and getting the three headed Cerberus and bringing him back to the King issuing the tasks. So, Hercules decides he's gonna go back to the underworld and borrow Cerebus and bring him back later. Hooray! Hercules is a mighty hero and now has a clean conscience after murdering his children while under the effects of a spell, and he got it there by murdering lots of people who never bothered him. If this boy is a Demigod then he's the patron god of Chaotic Stupid in all its incarnations. Truly a beefy barbarian of extraordinarily mental dumpstat propotitions (easily 3s across the board, really). It apparently never occurred to him that he could just go give the denizens of the underworld some noogies and get his kids back.
The idea that this individual is somehow special in D&D/PF is a laughable and disgusting assertion. Most of what he does is do-able by 5th level characters. He's a very impressive murderer, swindler, cattle rustler. The most impressive things he does he needs help with. Couldn't kill a 9 headed hydra by himself without help, can't hurt some critters with damage reduction, etc. He wrangles animals for goodness sakes. Animals. His great accomplishments that defy mortal capability include things like murdering a two-headed dog and its three-sectioned owner, stealing cows, killing a lion with tough skin, failing to scare away some birds, etc.
Something like this would snap Hercules in half like a twig.
What have we learned from this? I learned I really, really hate Hercules. We've also learned you don't need inflated metagame statistics to have demigods by any means. Especially when "demigods" aren't even as special, powerful, or interesting as your average D&D character who isn't completely and utterly insane.
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That seems less of an argument that "We don't need demigod stats" than "DnD is really horrible at 1:1 fantasy/myth stimulation" and that all characters from any book/myth are probably going to appear rather weak compared to what the game lets you do. Apples and Oranges
I mean, sure...A hydra isn't the most formidable foe in the game, but if it was a real monster and you threw some soldiers from ancient Greece at it, then it would be a slaughter.
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That seems less of an argument that "We don't need demigod stats" than "DnD is really horrible at 1:1 fantasy/myth stimulation" and that all characters from any book/myth are probably going to appear rather weak compared to what the game lets you do. Apples and Oranges
I mean, sure...A hydra isn't the most formidable foe in the game, but if it was a real monster and you threw some soldiers from ancient Greece at it, then it would be a slaughter.
And if you threw some soldiers from ancient Greece, with statistics in line with normal human beings, it would be a slaughter in-game as well. Allow me to show you.
Your typical soldier would be a 1st level warrior. These guys have about 6 hit points and a strength of 13. In the story Hercules wields a club and a bow, so it seems that clubs or longspears might be pretty good as far as technology goes here.
A 9 headed hydra is a CR 8 creature. That's roughly equivalent in CR to about 35 1st level soldiers. A 9 headed hydra has 9 HD. As such it is probably Gargantuan (50% more HD usually indicates a size increase). Its reach would be 15 ft., it would have 9 attacks, each with a bonus of around +13 to hit dealing 2d6+8 damage per hit, with an armor class of around 18. It would have 103 hit points and fast healing 9. A hydra of this magnitude would slaughter a battalion of soldiers like an angry child tearing out pieces of paper from a phone book.
Each round the hydra can charge his foes and attack up to 9 times. Odds are that's between 1-9 soldiers dead every six seconds, depending on how near they are to the hydra. What blows they do inflict (dealing an average of around 4.5 damage on a successful hit) that don't glance off its 18 armor class get fast-healed over the next few rounds. As soldiers die off, incoming attacks die with them, and soon it appears the beast is immortal. It refuses to die, its wounds won't stay open, the spears fall out of it, and it slaughters mercilessly!
Right up until someone who is sufficiently strong enough to deal with it comes along. Ol' douchebag Hercules, the Chaotic Stupid barbarian gets one of his buddies to help him out. He'll just lop off the beasts heads while his friend burns them. The fast healing doesn't work for its heads, and he only has to get in 9 attacks before the hydra is dead. If he's a 9th level barbarian with a good Strength score he can sunder the hydra pretty decently.
Which returns, again, to my point. It's not that Pathfinder/D&D is bad at modeling fantasy. It's in fact so damn good at it that it models an incredibly huge range of fantasy. It can model low fantasy, middle fantasy, high fantasy, and epic fantasy all within the same system. The problem I see is that people keep trying to inflate stuff. You got these 5th level bartenders that could eat swords for breakfast, and everyone talks about how you need gods who dwarf the power of everything else in the system because apparently high level creatures and characters are somehow "normal".
I disagree. I rebuke that. I think it's nonsense. Look at what we already have, and what the game already models. What exactly are we missing? Why exactly must a deity, if giving statistics, be some sort of CR 40+ being? Why would it need to?
A better choice of weapons would be shield, spear, javelin, short sword and bows. That's more inline with what the Greeks were outfitted with in battle.
A better choice of weapons would be shield, spear, javelin, short sword and bows. That's more inline with what the Greeks were outfitted with in battle.
Good point Tels. That's a pretty fair and good loadout too, I'd imagine. Unfortunately for our hypothetical Greeks, I think the fight would go pretty terrible for the greek soldiers in any case. Greeks didn't have composite bows I'm sure, and likely would be using shortbows (versus longbows which I'm pretty certain weren't available either). That would make the damage on them about 3.5 on a successful hit, and you'd suffer penalties for shooting at it from outside its run-range (you don't want the hydra to run up to you at x4 movement speed or x5 if it has the run feat and then catch you and your archery buddies in its 15 ft reach). Truthfully, it would appear that best case scenario is you could drive the creature off with heavy shortbow fire to get it to temporarily stop eating all your livestock (which was supposedly the issue in the story, with the hydra coming up out of the marsh and eating livestock, I believe).
Actually killing it would be something of a nightmare. Now in D&D, our 1st level soldiers have access to things like alchemist fire and/or acid, so if you got a lot of people together you could nuke the sucker down with fire bombs if used en mass, but trying to fight the brute with brutish weaponry is a pretty lost cause for normal folks. Because of this I think it's actually a very impressive feat to be able to kill it. It's no wonder that the king who issued the labors included it as one of the seemingly impossible tasks beyond mortals. ^-^
Also, Hercules was supposedly immortal because he drank from Hera's boobs as a baby before she realized he was the bastard child offspring of her husband Zeus' dalliances. Yet at some point he was actually killed. By a fire, in fact. I believe the story goes that he was poisoned, and the poison would have killed most ordinary mortals, but for him it was just intolerably painful to live with. So he consulted an oracle for aid, and then decided to die to end his pain and return to the gods. So he built himself a funeral pyre and had one of his friends light it, burning him up and killing him (so much for immortality being invincibility). There he reconciled with his step-mother Hera and married her daughter Hebe.
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D20 is the worst rule set, except for all the others.Except not everyone agrees with that. Some people think that there are several systems that are better than d20. Even some systems that pre-date it.
For example, I think that BRP, BESM, cWoD, GUMSHOE, and retro D&D (0e, 1e, 2e, B/X, and BECMI/RC) are all better than d20.
Better is a relative thing. However given all of the options are available and more people choose d20...just sayin'
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A better choice of weapons would be shield, spear, javelin, short sword and bows. That's more inline with what the Greeks were outfitted with in battle.
And we also aren't in an ancient Greek setting. Technologically the setting is advanced at least 1000 years and things like gunpowder do exist.
The Gods of Golarion could also be the equivalent of the Roman Gods, functional equivalent of the Greek Gods, and now we have better technology (and training) for your common soldier to change the dynamics of a fight.
Gods are above and beyond mortals. Regardless of what bending is allowed in a given game, the Gods are different. They represent pantheons, grant powers to followers, they are Gods.
If we want to stat them, I am ok with that, but to say divinity can be reached with the rule set as written currently is only true if you allow the manipulation of the rule set.
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Ashiel: you're awesome. I love your point about "less is more", and consistently reminding to calibrate expectations (which I wholeheartedly agree with). Incidentally, replace "Hercules" with "Everyone who was ever a large or important part of Grecian Myth" under the "awful person" category. 'Cause they were. (The Gorgons and their creation myths are a perfect example of why "good gods" in the Grecian pantheons like Athena really don't seem to be, unless I'm missing an important part of the picture surrounding Medusa.) I'm also all for the Greek myths being CR 10 or lower.
I do think you're being a bit too harsh on Hercules, though. He's obviously slow witted, with bad will save, and constantly trashed-in-the-head by a nasty goddess who hates him for something he had nothing to do with. Of course he's going to get drunk. He didn't know any better than to take the Frenzied Berserker prestige class... in fact, it could be viewed as Hera forcing it on him! No wonder he tried to deaden the pain with drink! (Doesn't mean I actually like him, though.)
Nonetheless, to answer some of your points:
1) The d20 system, while fabulously great at emulating lots and lots of different styles of play, does begin to break down under certain presumptions. It just doesn't hold up when you attempt to use it to emulate some fantasy milieus. This is not me bashing the d20 system. It is my favorite system to date for many reasons. This isn't even me selling the system short. Point in fact, I've hammered several game styles and fantasy tropes into it in the past that it doesn't support well, and had a blast. It doesn't cover everything perfectly, however, and I think that needs to be acknowledged just as much as its impressive breadth and versatility (though it has more of the latter than the former).
2) To answer the broader version of your question, "why would anyone push the system beyond its limits" is simple: because its limits don't tell the stories we always want to under the ways it functions as it currently does. This is one of the reasons I love me some Epic Level Handbook rules. Those rules are wonky, broken as all get out, and terribly "swingy" (in some ways returning the game to a 1st-3rd level "vibe", but with more power and consequences), but they also allow you to do things with the d20 system that it otherwise couldn't handle, and do so interestingly. Similarly, that's one of the reasons I love the (terrible) 3.0 Deities and Demigods book - the divine ranks provide a tremendously cool starting point from which to build rules off of. I even like (to a point) the 3.0 Psionics, even though they're probably the worst and wonkiest rule set ever conceived in the 3.0 system, 'cause of its potential (though I never play with that system: ugh, is it broken and awful, if nifty in theory).
The corollary question, then, is "Why don't you switch systems", which is a valid question. For one, because d20 provides a very great from which we can expand. For another, because it's easier to go, "hey, guys, lets do a d20-base game" (in other words, system familiarity; this is different from system mastery). For a third, it does function well enough, with the proper rule sets.
Personally, I'm all for slimming the thing down, to a point. I think that getting a solid definition of what a god is, what it does, and how it functions can be achieved. In my Insomnia thread, I mention what amounts to a template that, on the surface, looks ridiculously complex. But really, what it amounts to is, "a god gets these static bonuses at all times and divine spells don't alter that" eliminating a lot of temporary bonuses, ups, downs, and the like from a divine spell list; further because of their traits and abilities, they basically don't need equipment. While one could use something like druid spells on a cleric god or something, by the point you're a deity, you don't usually hang out with anyone, much less other gods. And, as you pointed out, a CR 27 god is hardly a minor challenge with the proper cohorts.
Also, I'm with ciretose (strangely - I think we hardly ever see eye-to-eye on rule stuff, though I could be wrong) on this: don't let perfect be the enemy of better. I think the d20 system can be refined and altered, and I think it's a great idea to do so. It's robust enough to take it.
(Also, also, I'm working on retooled divine salient abilities.)
i agree with Ashiel, if you want to stat out a deity, you don't need a CR30+ statblock. CR25 works just fine.
a CR25 outsider can be quite an accurate representation of a deity. and 10th level characters, are already capable of feats deemed impossible in our world.
a 5th level professional parkour master, with a 16 dexterity, 5 ranks in acrobatics, a class skill bonus, masterwork protective braces (masterwork acrobatics tool) and skill focus has +16 when performing his superhuman feats of roof running and house leaping. with a running start and taking 10, he can leap 26 feet. and this is without magic. in addition, he has a 55% chance of parkouring through CMDs of 26 and a reasonable chance of leaping from house to house, should the houses be 25 feet or less apart.
hercules, was a 9th level barbarian who maximized his physical stats and dumped his mental stats. his challenges were all CR10 or less and most of the foes he faced were brutes. the lion, the bull, the hydra, they could all 3 be considered brutes. playing to his strengths.
if you built hercules on a 15 point buy with his 2 stat bumps in constitution and his racial +2 in dexterity
it would look like
Strength 18
Dex 16
Con 18
int 7
wis 7
cha 7
though his mental stats should be 3s.
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Better is a relative thing. However given all of the options are available and more people choose d20...just sayin'D20 is the worst rule set, except for all the others.Except not everyone agrees with that. Some people think that there are several systems that are better than d20. Even some systems that pre-date it.
For example, I think that BRP, BESM, cWoD, GUMSHOE, and retro D&D (0e, 1e, 2e, B/X, and BECMI/RC) are all better than d20.
More people choose Justin Beiber than Dream Theater as well...just sayin'.
:P
As for letting the perfect be the enemy of the better, it's just as easy for me to say that some people let their desire for a "perfect" iteration of d20 override the fact that there are better systems out there. I don't consider any system to be perfect.
Hiya.
I didn't read the whole thread...so someone may have mentioned this...if so, well, uh...yeah. If not...
My current campaign is set in Golarion. I am using the Dark Dungeons system (a very sweet retro-clone of the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia). There are actual rules for Immortals. I think they do a wonderful job at capturing the difference between "mortal" and "immortal". I think if Paizo ever wanted to do some sort of "deity book", they should seriously look into something like this. Something where when someone changes from mortal to immortal, the rules they play by change as well.
The underlying factor is this: mortals, as mortals, have no hope of ever permanently removing an immortal. At best, they can destroy the immortals vessel, forcing it to return to it's "home" plane and rebuild/recover.
In fact, in my campaign, Arodan actually ended up getting "killed"; his immortal body was destroyed, as well as his embodied form (it's a Dark Dungeons thing)...which basically turned him into a dead mortal. The players will slowly find this out as they reach into the level 20's and 30's (right now they are around 7th - 8th). Arodan will have been "raised" from the dead at this point, in full mortal glory...as a 1st level character. He has all his memories, but has taken up adventuring in pursuit of reclaiming his immortality. But I digress... the point is this: having rules for immortal/deity type characters and creatures, for me, really fits in with the direct ties from mortals <--> immortals in Golarion. If Iomedae can become a god by fighting bad guys, I see no reason to not allow PC's the same opportunity. Good, different, rules for doing so (including stats for gods, etc.) are a *good* thing.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
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Actually, this is the post from James:
"If, some day in the future, we decide to publish an expansion to the game that allows players to play full on deities (not just demigods), then yes, we'd likely stat up the gods. In a case like this, my preference would be to develop a pretty drastically different system though; one that allows "translation" from the core/mythic game but not relatively easy translation, so that you wouldn't really be able to effectively fight a god even with a mythic character, and so that the game gets SIMPLER at the deity level rather then progressively more complex."
So it's more of "when we will have rules for playing gods, then you will be able to kill gods, 'cause a deity killing a deity is kosher".
Nothing changed here since James first indicated that deities can be only killed by deities or <UNKNOWN> 4 years ago, and he prefers a system where not even a tier 10 mythic character can kill a deity.
Even though canonically a (lesser?) deity was killed by a non-deity.
Tar-Baphon vs Arazni, anyone? I'm sure there are more examples, though.
Edit: There was also Savith vs Ydersius, where a mortal managed to kill a deity.
Actually, as of the ISWG, Arazni was a demigod.
Lamashtu killed an actual deity when she was still a demon lord. Curchanus was his name, I think.
And yeah, Arazni got retconned to a lower level of power just so they could avoid that being pointed out.
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Lamashtu killed an actual deity when she was still a demon lord. Curchanus was his name, I think.
And yeah, Arazni got retconned to a lower level of power just so they could avoid that being pointed out.
Ydserius was a demigod. Lamashtu vs Curchanus was a deity vs. deity case. Try harder :)
Also, Arazni was never retconned. From the first mention of her in Gods & Magic way back in 2008, she was described as warrior demi-goddess. I have the book in front of me now, and now you're looking silly for implying things that aren't just because you didn't bother to check the actual sources.
Lamashtu wasn't a deity until she took Curchanus' power, if I recall right. I can check it again today after work.
Do you have the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book from those times as well? If the same reads there, then I apologize.