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okay - the upgrade rules do not allow amulets to be upgraded as they aren't a headband or belt, BUT I think it should be legal for this specific case as it is a bonded object of a Wizard.
My understanding of the upgrade rules is that for wondrous items (including amulets) only +x value items can be upgraded.
I agree with you though that it would be nice to see upgrade paths for same type items that use the exact same components to make.
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Likewise, Celestial Mail/Plate is not made of any specific metal. You should be able to upgrade a mithral set to Celestial, simply by adding the cost of mithral to the total cost of the product, adding the template, and then subtracting the difference of what has already been done.
I'm not sure why you'd need a +10 Dex mod in PFS, but it's there.
Wish this were so, sad that it isn't. (I'm telling myself that Celestial Armor must be made out of something super-special to get that +8 Max Dex. If it's the material, not the enchantment, I can be at peace with no upgrade path.)
But to answer your question: Bard dip into Oracle of Lore with Sidestep Secret. (Here's the build I'm tinkering with.)
Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.
Charisma of 28 [= 20 base + 2 via levels + 6 via item] = +9 modifier.
Mithral Celestial Armor would be +18 AC [= 6 base + 9 Cha + 3 enhancement]. And could upgrade into instead of getting by with something else till I can afford the full Celestial set.
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In no way will you ever be able to buy "mithril celestial armor". Celestial already incorporates a 'mithril' like effect, which is why the original description has the funny gold/silver links description.
On a separate note, for what it's worth, I believe the original faq ruling about "named items" was *specifically* about "specific weapons and armor", not merely calling them out additionally. I don't see any reason at all why the ruling would have been meant to prevent lesser bracers/rods to greater, or particularly Bags of Holding I -> II.
Now Mike essentially affirmed that at the top of the thread, so that's the rule for the moment, but he did so (as he mentioned), "Going on the word of the posters".. I think that should be re-evaluated.
Lesser to Greater items seem obvious. Items like Stephen's amulet above will always need more specific clarification to be allowed.
While Celestial armor mentions the appearence of what it is made of, it in no way mentions the material.
As further example, there are examples of specific weapons and armor that ARE cited as being made of specific materials.
Ergo, Celestial armor is made of standard materials, because it doesn't say otherwise.
And actually, when you break the price down, it prices out exactly as a set of +3 armor with a 1/day level 3 spell should be at.
So, yeah, by the default rules, you can apply mithral to Celestial Mail/Plate. You could not, for contrast, to Elven Chain.
==Aelryinth
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While Celestial armor mentions the appearence of what it is made of, it in no way mentions the material.
As further example, there are examples of specific weapons and armor that ARE cited as being made of specific materials.
Ergo, Celestial armor is made of standard materials, because it doesn't say otherwise.
And actually, when you break the price down, it prices out exactly as a set of +3 armor with a 1/day level 3 spell should be at.
So, yeah, by the default rules, you can apply mithral to Celestial Mail/Plate. You could not, for contrast, to Elven Chain.
==Aelryinth
Hmm. I get the sense that we're not quite on the same page. I thought you were arguing that you should be able to make Celestial Armor out of Mithral, upgrade into it, whatever. Not that you actually can do those things. Because you can't, at least by Mike Brock's unequivocal statement upthread:
There is no upgrade path to achieve Celestial Armor.
Why does it matter? Because it appears to be based on the fact that Celestial Chain is made out of a special material. See what prompted Mike's statement:
I am a little confused. I did not say anything about Celestial Armor being made out of Mithral!
I am asking if a +3 Chainmail (A normal +3 Chainamil) can be upgraded into a Celestial Armor, since a Celestial Armor is in a +3 Chainmail with additional properties.
Is there any info on such an upgrade?
Note, Mithral has NOTHING to do with this!
Sorry, I read into it 'Mithral'. You may have answered your own questions.
"A normal +3 Chainmail"
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence.Celestial Armor is not 'normal' armor. When it is made, it is "so fine and light it ...".
FWIW, I would greatly benefit if there was an upgrade path, to the tune of several thousand gold when I had to sell my 'old' magic armor to 'upgrade' to Celestial Armor.
So it looks like Celestial Armor can't be made out of Mithral. Because if that were possible, then there would be a clear upgrade path to it: buy Mithral Chainmail, upgrade to Celestial Armor. But since there is no such path, then whatever "bright silver or gold" material Celestial Armor is made out of, it must be unique in some way and required for the armor. (This is perhaps supported by the +8 Max Dex: that's a lot higher than Chainmail's base +2, but where does it come from? It must be material or enchantment, and if there's no upgrade, then I take it that it's material.) So, no Mithral Celestial Chain.
I could be wrong! Am I missing something here?
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The current ruling by Mike stands (of course), however, if there is going to be a re-evaluation of the "no upgrade path to Celestial Chain" rule, I would point out the following:
Gold exists as a special material, and
Special Materials: All special materials, except angel skin, living steel and wyroot, are legal for play.So if Celestial Chain is +3 chainmail made of gold links, then buy chainmail armor made of gold
Items constructed purely of gold cost 10 times the normal price for items of their type. Gold items weigh 50% more than typical weapons or armor of their type.
...
Gold can be fashioned into light or medium metal armor. The softness and the weight of the metal decrease the armor/shield bonus by 2, and increase the armor check penalty by 2. Gold armor has hardness 5. Magically strengthened gold is the equivalent of steel and can be made into any armor or weapon that can be made of steel.
Emphasis mine. The armor is actually usable as armor once you get it to +1 as it loses the increased check penalty and gains back the armor bonus, though it still weighs a lot until you make it celestial.
Not saying this is perfect, but if the description says "gold" then this is a feasible upgrade path.
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Magically strengthened gold is the equivalent of steel and can be made into any armor or weapon that can be made of steel.The armor is actually usable as armor once you get it to +1 as it loses the increased check penalty and gains back the armor bonus, though it still weighs a lot until you make it celestial.
Don't forget you still have to pay the +100gp/lb to "magically strengthen" your gold armor. Simply adding a +1 enchantment doesn't do it.
and of course, by saying 'bright silver', they are referring to a color, not a material.
And mithral IS bright silver.
Celestial Mail costs 21k or whatever. Making it out of mithral is just adding a template on top of it, which increases the cost by +4k for medium armor, or +1k for light armor.
It has nothing to do with upgrades or magic.
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Redward: as long as the new item contains the old item, you'd like to think so.
But if you can't upgrade +3 chainmail to Celestial mail, then you can't upgrade +2 ability score enhancers to other things, either.
Personally, it's easy to figure out the upgrade path, if you make it all in one leap...it's the upgrades AFTER that, that are the pain.
==Aelryinth
This may have been addressed elsewhere or covered in a rulebook someplace, reference will be helpful if it is, but can i "upgrade" a strength rating on a Composite Longbow.
As a 1st level PFS pc i used 2pp to purchase a Darkwood Composite Longbow with a +2 STR rate but have decided to "rebuild" into a more switch-hitter type ranger with a higher strength.
Q. Can this be raised as i go along to keep up with my increasing strength mods?
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No.
However: Are you still first level/have not played a scenario at 2nd lvl?
If so, you want to buy a Darkwood Composite Longbow strung to a +0 Str. Then add adaptive to it when you get 1000gp and enough fame. This will give you a Comp Longbow that is always strung to your Str Mod.
Edit: If you already have a Comp longbow strung to a particular Str Mod you can still add adaptive to it and it will work out the same way. I just stated a +0 Str Mod because that would save you a little cash.
No.
Well that stinks. :(
However: Are you still first level/have not played a scenario at 2nd lvl?
I am and have not, but under the rebuild rules i can't "sell back" an item purchased with Prestige
If so, you want to buy a Darkwood Composite Longbow strung to a +0 Str. Then add adaptive to it when you get 1000gp and enough fame. This will give you a Comp Longbow that is always strung to your Str Mod.
Edit: If you already have a Comp longbow strung to a particular Str Mod you can still add adaptive to it and it will work out the same way. I just stated a +0 Str Mod because that would save you a little cash.
Sadly i have it strung to a +2 strength rate. I guess i'll just need to look to add Adaptive to it should i go the strength route.
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No.Well that stinks. :(
However: Are you still first level/have not played a scenario at 2nd lvl?I am and have not, but under the rebuild rules i can't "sell back" an item purchased with Prestige
Sadly i have it strung to a +2 strength rate. I guess i'll just need to look to add Adaptive to it should i go the strength route.If so, you want to buy a Darkwood Composite Longbow strung to a +0 Str. Then add adaptive to it when you get 1000gp and enough fame. This will give you a Comp Longbow that is always strung to your Str Mod.
Edit: If you already have a Comp longbow strung to a particular Str Mod you can still add adaptive to it and it will work out the same way. I just stated a +0 Str Mod because that would save you a little cash.
On the upside, you can still use it without penalty should you find your Strength drained or damaged.
On the upside, you can still use it without penalty should you find your Strength drained or damaged.
Yup. It's just one of those things i can look back on as a learning experience. Probably should have held onto the PP and spent it when i was ready to settle on what to play and leveled up to 2nd. It'll make a really good back-up weapon if i do decide to make the switch to a melee centric PC.
Yes you can. If the item was a wand or something with multiple uses you'd only get back half the Prestige you spent, but if you spent it on a bow you get it all back.Source?
I'm not aware of any mechanic in the campaign to ever "sell" an item back for prestige.
A source would be nice for this as i can't seem to find anything. The only reference i have is from my printout of the Guide to Pathfinder Society play.
1st-Level Character RetrainingPathfinder Society is all about player choices and living
with those choices once you’ve made them. However, at the
start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your
character before settling in for the long haul. Before you
level up a character for the first time, you may change any
aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes
may only be made between adventures and before playing
as a character above 1st level. Any exceptions will be noted
in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all
treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you
have earned and apply them to the character once you
retrain as long as the character meets the criteria above.
Bolded portion mine.
I also can't seem to find a faq that covers any of this so if someone can point me in a proper direction that would be great. I was assuming i was unable to "sell back" a Wand, partially used, but was unclear as it would seem about selling back a Weapon fully intact.
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Welp, there goes 57 minutes of my life I'll never get back. I swore I'd read elsewhere that if you bought something with PP, and changed your mind before level 2, you could get your PP back. I still remember it clearly because of the exception regarding partially used wands only getting you 1 PP back.
I must be getting old.
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I also can't seem to find a faq that covers any of this so if someone can point me in a proper direction that would be great. I was assuming i was unable to "sell back" a Wand, partially used, but was unclear as it would seem about selling back a Weapon fully intact.
We (the message boards) have been round and round on this, so I'll just summarize what I've seen and concluded:
By RAW, you "may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number." This has been clarified by Mike Brock that equipment is part of that "any."
So there's nothing that says that you can't un-spend that 2PP. As long as you're eligible for rebuild, you can start from scratch with 150gp & 0PP + whatever you've earned.
Now, some people claim a common-sense exception for spent consumables ("there's nothing to sell back") and partially-used consumables ("I'm not letting you return that wand, it's already used!"). Personally I'm good with the IC explanations of those and so I don't do it.
Long story short, I say go for it. If you can rebuild the character and change "any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number," you certainly shouldn't be locked into a bow that doesn't work for you anymore.
We (the message boards) have been round and round on this, so I'll just summarize what I've seen and concluded:By RAW, you "may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number." This has been clarified by Mike Brock that equipment is part of that "any."
So there's nothing that says that you can't un-spend that 2PP. As long as you're eligible for rebuild, you can start from scratch with 150gp & 0PP + whatever you've earned.
Okay and thanks. Sorry to have dragged up this discussion again i just wanted some clarification. This was how i was reading it.
Now, some people claim a common-sense exception for spent consumables ("there's nothing to sell back") and partially-used consumables ("I'm not letting you return that wand, it's already used!"). Personally I'm good with the IC explanations of those and so I don't do it.
I agree with this interpretation and had/ have no reason for it. I could come up with a reason, needed or otherwise, why my Ranger has become a Paladin and "sold back" a perfectly good Masterwork Bow but would find it harder and unnecessary to come up with a reason to sell back a partially used consumable. I should be able to find some use out of a Wand of Cure light Wounds.
Okay and thanks. Sorry to have dragged up this discussion again i just wanted some clarification. This was how i was reading it.No worries! I didn't mean you should already know this. I was just warning you that there's no clear consensus. :)
Well maybe down the road it will be faq'ed for clarification. I've been poking around the various forums as of late and had not run across a clear ruling on it so... I probably should have brought this up in Jiggy's thread on the rebuild but i was already here for some help. :)
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So no, you can't sell back partially-used wands. But not-used is not (to my knowledge) commented upon by the leadership yet, and so should be possible to sell back.
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So no, you can't sell back partially-used wands. But not-used is not (to my knowledge) commented upon by the leadership yet, and so should be possible to sell back.
That's for a complet rebuild of a leveled character, though, not a 1st level retrain. I would argue different circumstances--the former is an experienced player whose archetype got banned. The latter is designed to allow new players to experience the system without being locked in to bad choices.
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So no, you can't sell back partially-used wands. But not-used is not (to my knowledge) commented upon by the leadership yet, and so should be possible to sell back.That's for a complet rebuild of a leveled character, though, not a 1st level retrain. I would argue different circumstances--the former is an experienced player whose archetype got banned. The latter is designed to allow new players to experience the system without being locked in to bad choices.
A 1st level retrain is a complete rebuild of the character that you can use to try multiple builds/setups on the same character number (till you play a scenario at 2nd level).
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A 1st level retrain is a complete rebuild of the character that you can use to try multiple builds/setups on the same character number (till you play a scenario at 2nd level).So no, you can't sell back partially-used wands. But not-used is not (to my knowledge) commented upon by the leadership yet, and so should be possible to sell back.That's for a complet rebuild of a leveled character, though, not a 1st level retrain. I would argue different circumstances--the former is an experienced player whose archetype got banned. The latter is designed to allow new players to experience the system without being locked in to bad choices.
That's exactly my point.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So if I'm reading this thread correctly, if I want to add the Distance enchantment to my +1 Pistol, I have to pay 6,000gp, right? I first thought it was only 2,000gp because Ultimate Equipment says the price is "+1 bonus," but now I'm not sure.
You determine price by tallying up the total +X equivalent for the whole weapon.
A +1 weapon costs 2,000gp, but that doesn't mean that all those enchantments priced as "+1 bonus" cost 2,000gp each. Rather, each such enchantment adds +1 to the weapon's effective total enhancement bonus, and look up the total price for a weapon with that bonus.
For instance, upgrading a masterwork weapon to a +1 weapon means the final weapon is just a +1, so you look at the chart and see that it costs 2,000gp. When you add another +1 enchantment (such as distance), you total up the bonuses: it's a +1 weapon with a +1 equivalent ability, for a total of +2. So you look up the price of a +2 weapon and see that it's 8,000gp, and you pay the difference between what you already have (a 2,000gp +1 weapon) and the +2 price. In this case, the upgrade costs 6,000gp.
If you then wanted to take your +1 distance weapon (a +2 weapon for pricing purposes) and add holy (a +2 equivalent ability), you would add up your bonuses and see that a +1 distance holy weapon has a total of a +4 bonus for pricing purposes. You look up the price of a +4 weapon on the chart, and that's what you've got to pay (minus what you've already paid for the weapon you're starting with).
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Ok here's a small spanner for the works, on page 553 of the CRB it says you can add abilities of different natures to an item for 150% of the second item. Now would that mean I can take a headband of inspired wisdom +4 and add a Phylactory of Postive Channeling (for a total price of 32500gp)? Assuming within fame constraints
Also I have heard that Mike said that you check the base item cost + enhancement for fame then add the material cost for total price paid. (I think it came up in regards to a boon from Thornkeep)
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Ok here's a small spanner for the works, on page 553 of the CRB it says you can add abilities of different natures to an item for 150% of the second item. Now would that mean I can take a headband of inspired wisdom +4 and add a Phylactory of Postive Channeling (for a total price of 32500gp)? Assuming within fame constraints
I'm afraid not. No custom magic items (or crafting) are allowed for PFS.
If the item is mentioned by name in the rulebooks, then the 150% pricing applies (so a +2 STR belt costs 4000gp, and a +2 DEX belt is also 4000gp, but a +2 STR/+2 DEX belt is 10,000gp).
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Not sure if this should be a new thread, but I have a question about dragonhide armor. The guide says it isn't included in always available items, so I figure I must have to pay for the initial with prestige or fame limits.
But then if I want to make it +1, can I always do that, or do I need to have sufficient fame to pay for the total value?
Example: masterwork dragonhide breastplate 2 x (200 + 150) = 700 gp
versus: +1 dragonhide breastplate 1700 gp value
Looks like I could get the masterwork from my faction for 2 PP
(heckuva deal if someone had to kill a colossal dragon for it)
But then do I need at least 13 fame to upgrade it to +1?
Or do I need 9 fame to pay for a 1000 gp upgrade?
Or is there no minimum fame requirement whatsoever for this upgrade?
Or was the intent to never allow dragonhide in PFS unless you kill your own dragon or earn it on a chronicle sheet?
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There's been a lot of debate about magically enhancing items not on the always available list (guns is the other one that comes to mind).
You can buy a mwk dragonhide BP with 2 PP, or wait until you have enough fame to make the purchase in gold (9 Fame).
My take on the enhancing was since the base item is not always available, the entire enhanced item counts as not being always available, so you would need the actual fame to upgrade your BP bought with PP to +1 (i.e. 13 Fame).
Some argued that once you bought the BP, the +1 add-on was always available. I'm not sure if anyone from the campaign staff ever weighed in on which reading was correct or not.
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was the intent to never allow dragonhide in PFS unless you kill your own dragon or earn it on a chronicle sheet?
I think that may have been the original intention indeed, but it was never fully implemented with those restrictions.
Paz: That's certainly a reasonable reading of the rules, but has it been officially clarified as such?
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IMHO that is one way to look at it. Until someone higher up actually weighs in, YMMV. Most GMs (myself included) will have no problem signing off on such a low level purchase/upgrade, since you can always upgrade a masterwork item to a +1. It's certainly not game breaking.
If you read further up a few pages this same discussion has already been had in this thread.
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Sorry to have brought it up again. When I posted I didn't see anything about this in the first 50 or last 50 posts.
After taking the time to review the 150 posts in the middle, I see that it was brough up several times, with some differences of opinion on the interpretation of the rules.
Hopefully this will be clarified better in the next version of the GtOP. Although the upgrade section say you can always upgrade a masterwork item to +1, it doesn't say that upgrades are an exception to the fame limits given earlier for items not on the always available list.
Seems to me that if you acquire an item (via PP, gold piece purchase or chronicle) and you want to upgrade it to something that isn't always available, you need to have the requisite fame. I think the "always" in the upgrade section is referring to always avoiding the step of having to sell back at half price before buying the better item - not always being possible regardless of fame limits. The opposite argument falls apart quickly if you try to apply it to upgrades of magical equipment - I don't think the intent was to allow multiple increases to magical bonuses whenever you have the gold, regardless of fame limits. A +2 item is not always available to a character who has the +1 version, but if they have the fame they can always pay just the value difference and not lose half the value of the original item.